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#1 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, so this is a friendly debate between and myself stemming from the "Challenge a Viner" thread.

Its purpose is to challenge ourselves and each other as debaters, and is not necessarily our belief on the actual outcome.
  • Random Encounter.
  • Takes place in NYC (unpopulated). Combatants start 25 yards away and are visible.
  • Gambit has 2 decks of cards and his bo staff. Kraven has two spears, two hunting knives and an assortment of poisons and blow darts.
  • No immortality for Sergei. No Death powers for Remy.
  • If god_spawn debates more effectively than me, Kraven gets assistance from his entire family to battle Gambit.
  • This battle is to the death... Between god_spawn and I, Kraven and Gambit can win via knockout, lethal means or incapacitation
#2 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, and for the totally unbiased pictures of the competitors:

#3 Posted by greenteaforme (1826 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit should have this, but I'd like to see the debates for both sides.

#4 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@greenteaforme said:

Gambit should have this, but I'd like to see the debates for both sides.

You are hereby banned from my thread for not siding with my guy.

#5 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Fair setup, no?

#6 Posted by Floopay (8582 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

Okay, so this is a friendly debate between and myself stemming from the "Challenge a Viner" thread.

Its purpose is to challenge ourselves and each other as debaters, and is not necessarily our belief on the actual outcome.
  • Random Encounter.
  • Takes place in NYC (unpopulated). Combatants start 25 yards away and are visible.
  • Gambit has 2 decks of cards and his bo staff. Kraven has two spears, two hunting knives and an assortment of poisons and blow darts.
  • No immortality for Sergei. No Death powers for Remy.
  • If god_spawn debates more effectively than me, Kraven gets assistance from his entire family to battle Gambit.
  • This battle is to the death... Between god_spawn and I, Kraven and Gambit can win via knockout, lethal means or incapacitation

If I'm reading this correctly, that means if either of you wins, the other one has to be killed?

If so I know a guy who knows a guy....I'm just sayin'.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#7 Posted by greenteaforme (1826 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

@greenteaforme said:

Gambit should have this, but I'd like to see the debates for both sides.

You are hereby banned from my thread for not siding with my guy.

I meant Gambit has it...up his butt, from Kraven's blow dart. I must not have been clear.

...

YEAH!

#8 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, so my initial argument will be simple. Gambit sucks. Kraven is a superstar.

Gambit's primary skills are obviously his mutant ability and his agility. He is a decently skilled combatant, but he's not on par with the likes of Daredevil or Black Panther.

In terms of raw physicals, Kraven has advantages in strength, speed and durability. His agility is impressive enough to be able to combat some of the most evasive characters in all of comicdom, Daredevil and more importantly Spider-Man.

Gambit most likely will want to keep this battle at range, but even then Kraven has his own poison darts that he's used effectively in combat. However, Sergei will want to bring this up close and personal. With the short starting distance and Kraven's 60mph running speed, the gap will be closed in an instant and then it will come down to physical attributes and skill. Sergei Kravinoff is a man who has been fast enough in combat to tag a bloodlusted Spider-Man, the same Spider-Man who due to cutting loose was able to easily dispatch the rest of the Kravinoff family and was fast enough to dodge a bullet fired from a hunting rifle after the bullet was fired. Due to Gambit's limited durability, Sergei's equipment, skills and morality, Gambit's first mistake will likely be his last.

#9 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: This is correct. Two men walk in, only one walks out.

#10 Posted by k4tzm4n (36220 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt: LMFAO!

Back-up if losing aside, yeah, I'd say it's good. :P

It's important to say in character - otherwise you get DA FULL DECK right away :O

Staff Online
#11 Posted by Immortal777 (6705 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit's 52 pickup

#12 Posted by Floopay (8582 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

Okay, so my initial argument will be simple. Gambit sucks. Kraven is a superstar.

Gambit's primary skills are obviously his mutant ability and his agility. He is a decently skilled combatant, but he's not on par with the likes of Daredevil or Black Panther.

In terms of raw physicals, Kraven has advantages in strength, speed and durability. His agility is impressive enough to be able to combat some of the most evasive characters in all of comicdom, Daredevil and more importantly Spider-Man.

Gambit most likely will want to keep this battle at range, but even then Kraven has his own poison darts that he's used effectively in combat. However, Sergei will want to bring this up close and personal. With the short starting distance and Kraven's 60mph running speed, the gap will be closed in an instant and then it will come down to physical attributes and skill. Sergei Kravinoff is a man who has been fast enough in combat to tag a bloodlusted Spider-Man, the same Spider-Man who due to cutting loose was able to easily dispatch the rest of the Kravinoff family and was fast enough to dodge a bullet fired from a hunting rifle after the bullet was fired. Due to Gambit's limited durability, Sergei's equipment, skills and morality, Gambit's first mistake will likely be his last.

Gambit is awesome. Had he not had those limitations put in his head he would be an Omega Level and would pretty much be on Thor's level.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#13 Edited by jashro44 (19231 posts) - - Show Bio

This is gonna be good...

#14 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay So he would be losing to Magik and Colossua-naut, both of whom Spider-Man neutralized, the same Spider-Man who Kraven has defeated? Booya!

#15 Posted by God_Spawn (37193 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt: Opening arguments. I should get more of my scans tomorrow when I get home to my regular laptop. Until then I scrounged a bit.

Gambit's primary skills are obviously his mutant ability and his agility. He is a decently skilled combatant, but he's not on par with the likes of Daredevil or Black Panther.

This is true, Gambit isn't exactly the most skilled combatant but I don't think he needs it here. Gambit is incredibly cunning, skilled in savate and his skill with his bow staff combined with his agility and reflexes have allowed him to have a few but decent showings to show he isn't so helpless. He's kept out of reach of Wolverine and defeat him in a spar by using a projection of Lady Deathstrike then coming up with some shots with the staff to down him. Albeit Wolverine being weakened in the fight, it did show Gambit's cunning and willingness to use the danger room to his advantage. He's also stalemated Blade and he basically had a somewhat of a stalemate in an agility contest/fight with Daredevil just using his staff.

So while Daredevil isn't on par with some of the upper tier fighters he has at least hung with some of them despite only having few skill showings at least with his weaponry and agility he can.

In terms of raw physicals, Kraven has advantages in strength, speed and durability. His agility is impressive enough to be able to combat some of the most evasive characters in all of comicdom, Daredevil and more importantly Spider-Man.

I can't deny that, Kraven does have the physical edge here and Gambit isn't going to last long up close but he prefers to keep it at range anyway. Gambit's reflexes ,which I shall show you in the next few points of the post, should be enough for him to contend with Kraven and coupled with the environment here keep him at bay. Gambit usually throws more than one card at a time and the blasts due have a radius so Kraven should be hard pressed to keep dodging especially considering Gambit is pretty pinpoint with them and I'll get the accuracy later as well.

but even then Kraven has his own poison darts that he's used effectively in combat. However, Sergei will want to bring this up close and personal.

I'll say Gambit is capable of keeping things at a distance. So say Kraven does use his darts, well Gambit's reflexes and agility are pretty high.

He's capable of grabbing grenade shells out of the air, dodge multiple turrets of machine gun fire coming at him, deflect lasers point blank with his staff and Gambit has deflected multiple point blank machine gun fire with his staff before. If Kraven does try and throw knives or use his point darts I don't see why Gambit can't block or deflect them. He's also dodged and deflected thrown projectiles like DD's baton and a spear or arrow thrown at him before. He really does have some of the best street level reflex feats IMO and he uses his combat reflexes enough that whatever ranged weapon Kraven throws or blows at him he can get rid of it or possibly even catch it, charge it and throw it back.

With the short starting distance and Kraven's 60mph running speed, the gap will be closed in an instant and then it will come down to physical attributes and skill.

Gambit dodges bullets and deflects things far faster than Kraven's running speed so he isn't gonna get blitzed regardless cause he can perceive objects moving that fast. Sure bullets are the so called jobbers of the comic world and skilled opponents can tag other people who dodge bullets, but that has more to do with up close and in a fight. There is still 75 feet between them. Kraven doesn't just top off at 60 mph and you're playing it up to Gambit's alley giving him the distance. He's a thief, traversing cities is nothing new to him, he has used the environment to his advantage in cities before and in battles in general.

Gambit used a car right there as a weapon, he's used LDS hologram just to beat a weakened Wolverine in spar. He isn't afraid to use the environment to his advantage and while Kraven is good at doing the same, I'd wager this is Gambit's turf. He may just throw timed charged cards at cars or at Kraven himself to gain some additional time to gain space. He may run and start charging things like fire hydrants, cars, parking meters, anything he can get his hands on. Why? So he can keep his advantage of distance. As soon as Kraven takes off Gambit will most likely throw his cards. Kraven could probably dodge them but don't forget the radius as Remy may just assess the situation by throwing them short of Kraven to get an idea of how fast he moves and if he should run or not and start blowning stuff up. As I said before, Gambit isn't gonna get blitzed here, he has enough time for his perception to see Kraven coming. If this guy is coming at him fast and through the explosions he knows well enough to play to his distance so if that means taking a few vehicles or public property and blowing them up on the run, he very well could do that.

Sergei Kravinoff is a man who has been fast enough in combat to tag a bloodlusted Spider-Man, the same Spider-Man who due to cutting loose was able to easily dispatch the rest of the Kravinoff family and was fast enough to dodge a bullet fired from a hunting rifle after the bullet was fired. Due to Gambit's limited durability, Sergei's equipment, skills and morality, Gambit's first mistake will likely be his last.

I'll agree that is impressive but something he needs to cover the distance to do. Gambit's used his cards accurately despite being on high pressure to dodge. Look at the this repeat scan (5th one of this row). He's dodging turret fire while also being able to throw his cards in high pressure combat to take the turrets out. I'll also throw in some other accuracy feats.

He got a card in his opponent's hood. He's thrown a card in Sabes' mouth, tagged opponents without looking in the middle of a fight and has even almost pointblank charged and thrown his cards accurately and fast enough to take Spider-Man's webballs out of mid air and he also used the smoke to get out of there (showing impromptu cunning). Now I know they aren't necessarily skilled, moving targets (the webball one being the most impressive) it does show Remy is skilled and quick enough in combat to be able to dodge machine gun bullets tag his targets. Also, it shows he can throw accurately and fast enough to tag near point blank projectiles out the air too. And the power of the cards is nothing to scoff at.

One card sent him and Daredevil flying (and that wasn't a really powerful charged card since they both got up fine) and he's leveled robots with them. A normal charged card would have a somewhat wide radius and considering Gambit tends to throw multiples at a time and he throws them with high accuracy he can catch Kraven. Or, as I mentioned earlier, throws them at a car or some part of a building, since it is unpopulated, to slow Kraven or distract him if he can't tag him directly (which I think is possible once Kraven is up close due to plenty of explosives that he throws relatively accurately.) then he can tag him. Kraven can probably tank an initial card but he isn't tanking a whole lot of them without injuries. Or he just drops a card, waits for Kraven then dashes back to play like a keep kind of thing.

Other applications with his powers. Gambit's charged his staff before too when he has too. He did so to the point he leveled a house. I don't have the scan on this computer for it. He could charge his staff and slam it on the ground for an added boost in a jump, he's improvised with his powers before and the charged staff could be beneficial and will hurt Kraven if he comes up close.

Ok so let's say they are playing keep away for some time and Gambit manages to dodge around some hits or gain space and realize this isn't getting anywhere. For the longest time Gambit could not charge organic matter and he hardly ever charged his opponent's clothing or them. I think he's more than willing to pull those kinds of stunts now. I can recall 5 in the past few years.

  • Charges a vampire's choker and takes her head off.
  • Charging Daken's arm.(organic material)
  • Charging his fist and threatening Ms. Sinister
  • Charging Hijack's armor resulting in his torso being blown out and he dies cause of it.
  • Charging Cap's armor in an attempt to KO him.

Gambit can charge organic material now, McNiven as I said did a pretty poor fight between them. He made Gambit's staff like fiberglass when it is much tougher and he basically implied Gambit can't organic material now which is false. He did it 3 times in the past few years but some of those times are irrelevant but just something you should know. So Gambit is willing to take a life (or dead one) and is willing to charge opponents just to knock them out hence my point in mentioning the Cap fight.

In short: Gambit should he fast, accurate and cunning enough to keep the distance for a majority of the fight and employ the environment to his advantage so the cars, parts of buildings, meters, fences etc if he has to run. If he gets caught in a fight I think he is decently skilled enough that he can dodge or deflect enough employ his powers whether staff charge or drop card, relatively quickly to gain distance and do so. Or if he feels he is losing an up close battle cause I think he can defend a bit, he can charge Kraven himself or an article of clothing.

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#16 Posted by God_Spawn (37193 posts) - - Show Bio

Bumpz for ze voting an the viewing.

Moderator
#17 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

I will respond to this later today when I get to my desktop, good sir. Can't view the scans on my phone, for one.

#18 Posted by Baldy (5021 posts) - - Show Bio

When was the last time Kraven owned Gladiator? I think it was a few issues back, but I just can't find it...

#19 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@BringnIt: Opening arguments. I should get more of my scans tomorrow when I get home to my regular laptop. Until then I scrounged a bit.

Gambit's primary skills are obviously his mutant ability and his agility. He is a decently skilled combatant, but he's not on par with the likes of Daredevil or Black Panther.

This is true, Gambit isn't exactly the most skilled combatant but I don't think he needs it here. Gambit is incredibly cunning, skilled in savate and his skill with his bow staff combined with his agility and reflexes have allowed him to have a few but decent showings to show he isn't so helpless. He's kept out of reach of Wolverine and defeat him in a spar by using a projection of Lady Deathstrike then coming up with some shots with the staff to down him. Albeit Wolverine being weakened in the fight, it did show Gambit's cunning and willingness to use the danger room to his advantage. He's also stalemated Blade and he basically had a somewhat of a stalemate in an agility contest/fight with Daredevil just using his staff.

So while Daredevil isn't on par with some of the upper tier fighters he has at least hung with some of them despite only having few skill showings at least with his weaponry and agility he can.

Me: While your reference to Gambit defeating Wolverine does show some creativity in skill, depending on how weakened Wolverine was Kraven potentially could beat him without trickery. More importantly, the showing has limited relevance since the Danger Room played a critical role in Remy's victory.

Additionally, while stalemating Daredevil in an agility contest is a nice testament to Gambit's agility, the scan on the second post of this thread has shown Kraven's own ability to not only keep up with Matt but defeat him. Matt was saved by Natasha at the start of the next issue.

In terms of raw physicals, Kraven has advantages in strength, speed and durability. His agility is impressive enough to be able to combat some of the most evasive characters in all of comicdom, Daredevil and more importantly Spider-Man.

I can't deny that, Kraven does have the physical edge here and Gambit isn't going to last long up close but he prefers to keep it at range anyway. Gambit's reflexes ,which I shall show you in the next few points of the post, should be enough for him to contend with Kraven and coupled with the environment here keep him at bay. Gambit usually throws more than one card at a time and the blasts due have a radius so Kraven should be hard pressed to keep dodging especially considering Gambit is pretty pinpoint with them and I'll get the accuracy later as well.

but even then Kraven has his own poison darts that he's used effectively in combat. However, Sergei will want to bring this up close and personal.

I'll say Gambit is capable of keeping things at a distance. So say Kraven does use his darts, well Gambit's reflexes and agility are pretty high.

He's capable of grabbing grenade shells out of the air, dodge multiple turrets of machine gun fire coming at him, deflect lasers point blank with his staff and Gambit has deflected multiple point blank machine gun fire with his staff before. If Kraven does try and throw knives or use his point darts I don't see why Gambit can't block or deflect them. He's also dodged and deflected thrown projectiles like DD's baton and a spear or arrow thrown at him before. He really does have some of the best street level reflex feats IMO and he uses his combat reflexes enough that whatever ranged weapon Kraven throws or blows at him he can get rid of it or possibly even catch it, charge it and throw it back.

Me: I'll concede that Gambit does have extremely good reflexes, particularly in the case of dodging projectiles, but a moment's distraction would allow Sergei to use his top-end speed to close the distance. Alternatively, another situation would be if Gambit is somehow successful at keeping at range--unlikely, in my opinion--but Kraven could use the space to disappear and stalk Gambit, using his superior senses and tracking ability.

With the short starting distance and Kraven's 60mph running speed, the gap will be closed in an instant and then it will come down to physical attributes and skill.

Gambit dodges bullets and deflects things far faster than Kraven's running speed so he isn't gonna get blitzed regardless cause he can perceive objects moving that fast. Sure bullets are the so called jobbers of the comic world and skilled opponents can tag other people who dodge bullets, but that has more to do with up close and in a fight. There is still 75 feet between them. Kraven doesn't just top off at 60 mph and you're playing it up to Gambit's alley giving him the distance. He's a thief, traversing cities is nothing new to him, he has used the environment to his advantage in cities before and in battles in general.

Me: As you said, bullets are indeed the jobbers of the comic book world. Spider-Man has dodged bullets, even catching them in his hand once, and yet Kraven has tagged even a top-of-his-game Spider-Man.

Additionally, he's no stranger to dodging bullets himself. 75 feet really isn't much of a gap. An impressive time to run 120 feet in for an NFL athlete is about a 4.2, so about 30 feet per second. A top Olympic sprint could probably close the distance in two seconds. Sergei has faster reflexes and speed than either. He will probably have to dodge or tank one projectile attack before he's in close, something he's perfectly capable of doing.

I'll post some speed showings in the next post.

Gambit used a car right there as a weapon, he's used LDS hologram just to beat a weakened Wolverine in spar. He isn't afraid to use the environment to his advantage and while Kraven is good at doing the same, I'd wager this is Gambit's turf. He may just throw timed charged cards at cars or at Kraven himself to gain some additional time to gain space. He may run and start charging things like fire hydrants, cars, parking meters, anything he can get his hands on. Why? So he can keep his advantage of distance. As soon as Kraven takes off Gambit will most likely throw his cards. Kraven could probably dodge them but don't forget the radius as Remy may just assess the situation by throwing them short of Kraven to get an idea of how fast he moves and if he should run or not and start blowning stuff up. As I said before, Gambit isn't gonna get blitzed here, he has enough time for his perception to see Kraven coming. If this guy is coming at him fast and through the explosions he knows well enough to play to his distance so if that means taking a few vehicles or public property and blowing them up on the run, he very well could do that.

Me: Do you have any scans of Gambit charging large objects like cars in the heat of battle when he's engaged in combat? Presuming Gambit does start blowing up the environment, Sergei's best move would be to clear the area and as I mentioned before, use his superior hunting skills to stalk Gambit and get in a sneak attack. This is something perfectly in character for him to do, he is a hunter first and foremost, the greatest in the world. I think it's arguable whether or not Gambit will successfully counter being blitzed, Kraven has blitzed classic Kaine before he could react.

Sergei Kravinoff is a man who has been fast enough in combat to tag a bloodlusted Spider-Man, the same Spider-Man who due to cutting loose was able to easily dispatch the rest of the Kravinoff family and was fast enough to dodge a bullet fired from a hunting rifle after the bullet was fired. Due to Gambit's limited durability, Sergei's equipment, skills and morality, Gambit's first mistake will likely be his last.

I'll agree that is impressive but something he needs to cover the distance to do. Gambit's used his cards accurately despite being on high pressure to dodge. Look at the this repeat scan (5th one of this row). He's dodging turret fire while also being able to throw his cards in high pressure combat to take the turrets out. I'll also throw in some other accuracy feats.

He got a card in his opponent's hood. He's thrown a card in Sabes' mouth, tagged opponents without looking in the middle of a fight and has even almost pointblank charged and thrown his cards accurately and fast enough to take Spider-Man's webballs out of mid air and he also used the smoke to get out of there (showing impromptu cunning). Now I know they aren't necessarily skilled, moving targets (the webball one being the most impressive) it does show Remy is skilled and quick enough in combat to be able to dodge machine gun bullets tag his targets. Also, it shows he can throw accurately and fast enough to tag near point blank projectiles out the air too. And the power of the cards is nothing to scoff at.

Me: When did Gambit do that to Spider-Man's webbing? I'm not familiar with the two of them encountering each other in such a manner. How did the rest of the battle play out?

One card sent him and Daredevil flying (and that wasn't a really powerful charged card since they both got up fine) and he's leveled robots with them. A normal charged card would have a somewhat wide radius and considering Gambit tends to throw multiples at a time and he throws them with high accuracy he can catch Kraven. Or, as I mentioned earlier, throws them at a car or some part of a building, since it is unpopulated, to slow Kraven or distract him if he can't tag him directly (which I think is possible once Kraven is up close due to plenty of explosives that he throws relatively accurately.) then he can tag him. Kraven can probably tank an initial card but he isn't tanking a whole lot of them without injuries. Or he just drops a card, waits for Kraven then dashes back to play like a keep kind of thing.

Other applications with his powers. Gambit's charged his staff before too when he has too. He did so to the point he leveled a house. I don't have the scan on this computer for it. He could charge his staff and slam it on the ground for an added boost in a jump, he's improvised with his powers before and the charged staff could be beneficial and will hurt Kraven if he comes up close.

Ok so let's say they are playing keep away for some time and Gambit manages to dodge around some hits or gain space and realize this isn't getting anywhere. For the longest time Gambit could not charge organic matter and he hardly ever charged his opponent's clothing or them. I think he's more than willing to pull those kinds of stunts now. I can recall 5 in the past few years.

  • Charges a vampire's choker and takes her head off.
  • Charging Daken's arm.(organic material)
  • Charging his fist and threatening Ms. Sinister
  • Charging Hijack's armor resulting in his torso being blown out and he dies cause of it.
  • Charging Cap's armor in an attempt to KO him.

Gambit can charge organic material now, McNiven as I said did a pretty poor fight between them. He made Gambit's staff like fiberglass when it is much tougher and he basically implied Gambit can't organic material now which is false. He did it 3 times in the past few years but some of those times are irrelevant but just something you should know. So Gambit is willing to take a life (or dead one) and is willing to charge opponents just to knock them out hence my point in mentioning the Cap fight.

Well, possibly Gambit lost the ability to charge organic material off-panel somewhere after those showings and before AvX. It was approved by Marvel's editors, so obviously it has to be weighed in. Even if he can still do so, that's implying the battle is up close and personal, which you've already indicated would put Remy at a disadvantage. He'd have to charge Sergei successfully before getted gutted and poisoned. While no doubt powerful, Captain America successfully tanked Remy's charge, got up and proceeded to pound him, and sans shield Sergei is at least as durable as Steve is.

In short: Gambit should he fast, accurate and cunning enough to keep the distance for a majority of the fight and employ the environment to his advantage so the cars, parts of buildings, meters, fences etc if he has to run. If he gets caught in a fight I think he is decently skilled enough that he can dodge or deflect enough employ his powers whether staff charge or drop card, relatively quickly to gain distance and do so. Or if he feels he is losing an up close battle cause I think he can defend a bit, he can charge Kraven himself or an article of clothing.

So far, you've shown impressive reflex showings for Remy, but what I will ask you is to show people on Kraven's level that he has successfully defeated and not just hung with in combat situations like this. Kraven has beaten Spider-Man successfully, Vermin successfully, Daredevil successfully, and his less skilled son Alyosha has successfully defeated Black Panther. Gambit has lost to Bullseye, who is inferior to Matt, and also lost to Captain America recently.

#20 Edited by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't get two of the captions to post for some reason, but the first set of scans shows Sergei blitzing Kaine, a physically superior Spider-Man clone. Kaine looked to take Kraven out before he could react, and Sergei was able to get up from the chair, disrobe and slash Kaine's throat before he could react.

The third set of scans shows Kraven cutting a blood-lusted Spider-Man, who was fast enough to dodge bullets and not merely the aim as is usually the case, and who was clearly operating at above-normal levels. Had he poisoned his blade like he normally would have, the fight would have ended there. The last scan shows that Sergei was seeking death, however, not victory. He also was able to dislocate Spider-Man's shoulder in close combat here, an impressive feat.

#21 Posted by God_Spawn (37193 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt: I'll get to this eventually. Something came up. I will say the Gambit vs Bullseye fight was pretty off putting considering Bullseye was able to catch a charged card and throw it back yet in the same series Gambit stalemated Daredevil. Gambit's skill feats are minor but solid and given his powerset what he did to DD is more viable than what Bullseye could have done.

Moderator
#22 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Take your time, bud.

#23 Posted by darktiger (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

I go for godspawn

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#24 Posted by k4tzm4n (36220 posts) - - Show Bio

@darktiger said:

I go for godspawn

They're not done.

Staff Online
#25 Posted by darktiger (4143 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@darktiger said:

I go for godspawn

They're not done.

ok

Online
#26 Posted by comicdude23 (11399 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice debate guys.

#27 Edited by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@darktiger said:

I go for godspawn

I am not sure whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, truthfully.

@k4tzm4n said:

@darktiger said:

I go for godspawn

They're not done.

I know, right? I haven't even brought up Sergei being able to stop a charging rhino, and I still have the whole Kravinoff family waiting in the wings.

@comicdude23 said:

Nice debate guys.

Thank you.

#28 Posted by nick_hero22 (6713 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@BringnIt: Opening arguments. I should get more of my scans tomorrow when I get home to my regular laptop. Until then I scrounged a bit.

Gambit's primary skills are obviously his mutant ability and his agility. He is a decently skilled combatant, but he's not on par with the likes of Daredevil or Black Panther.

This is true, Gambit isn't exactly the most skilled combatant but I don't think he needs it here. Gambit is incredibly cunning, skilled in savate and his skill with his bow staff combined with his agility and reflexes have allowed him to have a few but decent showings to show he isn't so helpless. He's kept out of reach of Wolverine and defeat him in a spar by using a projection of Lady Deathstrike then coming up with some shots with the staff to down him. Albeit Wolverine being weakened in the fight, it did show Gambit's cunning and willingness to use the danger room to his advantage. He's also stalemated Blade and he basically had a somewhat of a stalemate in an agility contest/fight with Daredevil just using his staff.

So while Daredevil isn't on par with some of the upper tier fighters he has at least hung with some of them despite only having few skill showings at least with his weaponry and agility he can.

In terms of raw physicals, Kraven has advantages in strength, speed and durability. His agility is impressive enough to be able to combat some of the most evasive characters in all of comicdom, Daredevil and more importantly Spider-Man.

I can't deny that, Kraven does have the physical edge here and Gambit isn't going to last long up close but he prefers to keep it at range anyway. Gambit's reflexes ,which I shall show you in the next few points of the post, should be enough for him to contend with Kraven and coupled with the environment here keep him at bay. Gambit usually throws more than one card at a time and the blasts due have a radius so Kraven should be hard pressed to keep dodging especially considering Gambit is pretty pinpoint with them and I'll get the accuracy later as well.

but even then Kraven has his own poison darts that he's used effectively in combat. However, Sergei will want to bring this up close and personal.

I'll say Gambit is capable of keeping things at a distance. So say Kraven does use his darts, well Gambit's reflexes and agility are pretty high.

He's capable of grabbing grenade shells out of the air, dodge multiple turrets of machine gun fire coming at him, deflect lasers point blank with his staff and Gambit has deflected multiple point blank machine gun fire with his staff before. If Kraven does try and throw knives or use his point darts I don't see why Gambit can't block or deflect them. He's also dodged and deflected thrown projectiles like DD's baton and a spear or arrow thrown at him before. He really does have some of the best street level reflex feats IMO and he uses his combat reflexes enough that whatever ranged weapon Kraven throws or blows at him he can get rid of it or possibly even catch it, charge it and throw it back.

With the short starting distance and Kraven's 60mph running speed, the gap will be closed in an instant and then it will come down to physical attributes and skill.

Gambit dodges bullets and deflects things far faster than Kraven's running speed so he isn't gonna get blitzed regardless cause he can perceive objects moving that fast. Sure bullets are the so called jobbers of the comic world and skilled opponents can tag other people who dodge bullets, but that has more to do with up close and in a fight. There is still 75 feet between them. Kraven doesn't just top off at 60 mph and you're playing it up to Gambit's alley giving him the distance. He's a thief, traversing cities is nothing new to him, he has used the environment to his advantage in cities before and in battles in general.

Gambit used a car right there as a weapon, he's used LDS hologram just to beat a weakened Wolverine in spar. He isn't afraid to use the environment to his advantage and while Kraven is good at doing the same, I'd wager this is Gambit's turf. He may just throw timed charged cards at cars or at Kraven himself to gain some additional time to gain space. He may run and start charging things like fire hydrants, cars, parking meters, anything he can get his hands on. Why? So he can keep his advantage of distance. As soon as Kraven takes off Gambit will most likely throw his cards. Kraven could probably dodge them but don't forget the radius as Remy may just assess the situation by throwing them short of Kraven to get an idea of how fast he moves and if he should run or not and start blowning stuff up. As I said before, Gambit isn't gonna get blitzed here, he has enough time for his perception to see Kraven coming. If this guy is coming at him fast and through the explosions he knows well enough to play to his distance so if that means taking a few vehicles or public property and blowing them up on the run, he very well could do that.

Sergei Kravinoff is a man who has been fast enough in combat to tag a bloodlusted Spider-Man, the same Spider-Man who due to cutting loose was able to easily dispatch the rest of the Kravinoff family and was fast enough to dodge a bullet fired from a hunting rifle after the bullet was fired. Due to Gambit's limited durability, Sergei's equipment, skills and morality, Gambit's first mistake will likely be his last.

I'll agree that is impressive but something he needs to cover the distance to do. Gambit's used his cards accurately despite being on high pressure to dodge. Look at the this repeat scan (5th one of this row). He's dodging turret fire while also being able to throw his cards in high pressure combat to take the turrets out. I'll also throw in some other accuracy feats.

He got a card in his opponent's hood. He's thrown a card in Sabes' mouth, tagged opponents without looking in the middle of a fight and has even almost pointblank charged and thrown his cards accurately and fast enough to take Spider-Man's webballs out of mid air and he also used the smoke to get out of there (showing impromptu cunning). Now I know they aren't necessarily skilled, moving targets (the webball one being the most impressive) it does show Remy is skilled and quick enough in combat to be able to dodge machine gun bullets tag his targets. Also, it shows he can throw accurately and fast enough to tag near point blank projectiles out the air too. And the power of the cards is nothing to scoff at.

One card sent him and Daredevil flying (and that wasn't a really powerful charged card since they both got up fine) and he's leveled robots with them. A normal charged card would have a somewhat wide radius and considering Gambit tends to throw multiples at a time and he throws them with high accuracy he can catch Kraven. Or, as I mentioned earlier, throws them at a car or some part of a building, since it is unpopulated, to slow Kraven or distract him if he can't tag him directly (which I think is possible once Kraven is up close due to plenty of explosives that he throws relatively accurately.) then he can tag him. Kraven can probably tank an initial card but he isn't tanking a whole lot of them without injuries. Or he just drops a card, waits for Kraven then dashes back to play like a keep kind of thing.

Other applications with his powers. Gambit's charged his staff before too when he has too. He did so to the point he leveled a house. I don't have the scan on this computer for it. He could charge his staff and slam it on the ground for an added boost in a jump, he's improvised with his powers before and the charged staff could be beneficial and will hurt Kraven if he comes up close.

Ok so let's say they are playing keep away for some time and Gambit manages to dodge around some hits or gain space and realize this isn't getting anywhere. For the longest time Gambit could not charge organic matter and he hardly ever charged his opponent's clothing or them. I think he's more than willing to pull those kinds of stunts now. I can recall 5 in the past few years.

  • Charges a vampire's choker and takes her head off.
  • Charging Daken's arm.(organic material)
  • Charging his fist and threatening Ms. Sinister
  • Charging Hijack's armor resulting in his torso being blown out and he dies cause of it.
  • Charging Cap's armor in an attempt to KO him.

Gambit can charge organic material now, McNiven as I said did a pretty poor fight between them. He made Gambit's staff like fiberglass when it is much tougher and he basically implied Gambit can't organic material now which is false. He did it 3 times in the past few years but some of those times are irrelevant but just something you should know. So Gambit is willing to take a life (or dead one) and is willing to charge opponents just to knock them out hence my point in mentioning the Cap fight.

In short: Gambit should he fast, accurate and cunning enough to keep the distance for a majority of the fight and employ the environment to his advantage so the cars, parts of buildings, meters, fences etc if he has to run. If he gets caught in a fight I think he is decently skilled enough that he can dodge or deflect enough employ his powers whether staff charge or drop card, relatively quickly to gain distance and do so. Or if he feels he is losing an up close battle cause I think he can defend a bit, he can charge Kraven himself or an article of clothing.

Flawless Victory

#29 Edited by God_Spawn (37193 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt: I don't know how much more time I can put this much effort into this debate this week. Regarding what came up today I'm going to have some personal matters to deal with tomorrow. I have classes for the most part all day every day the rest of the week and I have a work meeting on Friday. I hate to cut the debate short but unless we can carry this over to the weekend I don't know if I can keep at this pace and I would want to keep this pace. I haven't had a challenging debate in some time so I appreciate it. I'll make one more post about it tonight and please do make a counter statement so that way if we have to call it short then we can get some voting done. If you don't mind waiting til Saturday for me to reply on it then we can continue it then if it's cool.

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#30 Posted by God_Spawn (37193 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt:

Me: While your reference to Gambit defeating Wolverine does show some creativity in skill, depending on how weakened Wolverine was Kraven potentially could beat him without trickery. More importantly, the showing has limited relevance since the Danger Room played a critical role in Remy's victory.

Depending how weakened Logan is Gambit can defeat him without trickery as well. But that is beside the point. The point of it was in even in the midst of a fight Gambit can readily employ the environment. There are plenty of obstacles here and things for Remy to take to his advantage and it isn't something he is shy to doing. He isn't going to wait for Kraven to get there. As I previously stated, he would most likely toss some cards and start heading back. He is more comfortable at a range and I still see it will be hard for Kraven to get across that gap.

Additionally, while stalemating Daredevil in an agility contest is a nice testament to Gambit's agility, the scan on the second post of this thread has shown Kraven's own ability to not only keep up with Matt but defeat him. Matt was saved by Natasha at the start of the next issue.

They were still fighting in the feat. The point of it was Gambit can keep up with someone with enhanced senses, agility and acrobatic ability as Daredevil but also use his skill with a staff to make it hard for Matt to get through his defenses. And Gambit didn't resort to using any of his powers in that fight too. If Gambit did use his powers he would have most likely defeated Matt since both were relatively close to each other in their respective weapons.

Me: I'll concede that Gambit does have extremely good reflexes, particularly in the case of dodging projectiles, but a moment's distraction would allow Sergei to use his top-end speed to close the distance. Alternatively, another situation would be if Gambit is somehow successful at keeping at range--unlikely, in my opinion--but Kraven could use the space to disappear and stalk Gambit, using his superior senses and tracking ability.
Me: As you said, bullets are indeed the jobbers of the comic book world. Spider-Man has dodged bullets, even catching them in his hand once, and yet Kraven has tagged even a top-of-his-game Spider-Man.
Additionally, he's no stranger to dodging bullets himself. 75 feet really isn't much of a gap. An impressive time to run 120 feet in for an NFL athlete is about a 4.2, so about 30 feet per second. A top Olympic sprint could probably close the distance in two seconds. Sergei has faster reflexes and speed than either. He will probably have to dodge or tank one projectile attack before he's in close, something he's perfectly capable of doing.

I'll cover these in the same post. While I agree Kraven is good at stalking and would probably get a drop on Remy in a different setting, Gambit is used to traversing the cities as I stated in my main post. Remy is a thief so stealth and how it operates is something he is good at. He may not have the same advantages that Kraven has when doing it but in a place where I think the environment favors Gambit it won't be so cut and dry. If Kraven heads to an alley to climb up to a building or something Remy won't just stay there, he will do the same or go to the rooftop to try and keep a lock on him. Kraven would probably find him eventually but if he finds him off guard is a completely different thing.

And while your stats make sense to that of a normal person it isn't here. It's like me saying Namor can effectively blitz Psylocke even though his top speed is mach 1 (round a regular bullet speed) and she has perceived and dodged bullets before. To a regular person it may sound impressive but to people who perceive things such as bullets and can deflect them it really isn't. It's similar to tennis. A person can't run 100 mph but players can deflect serves going over 100 mph. I've done it before in high school when I played, some of my friends did it etc. In comics in a close range fight the speed dodging is compensated for by skill. Hence why say Logan isn't as fast as Spider-Man but his combat speed coupled with his skill is enough to tag Parker, same goes for Kraven. But since this isn't close range at the start, while Kraven can move faster than Gambit in travel speed, his reflexes are up there enough that coupled with his own skill he can at least counter or dodge the initial charge and first strike. If he does so he has the chance to tag him with a card and keep the distance and I don't see Kraven brushing them off that easily. Gambit's charged dirt and flung Bishop back, he's wrecked sentinels and other large robots with a few of those things and a charged staff thrown leveled a house. And considering it is a city there will buildings on both sides, Gambit's typical go to card strategy is wide arcs and multiple cards and you saw how accurate he was with them. I can't say he will tag Kraven on the first hit dead on but as I stated with his perception and own speed he should be able to at least launch off 2 arcs of cards with possible vehicles and other environmental things Kraven isn't just going to have to worry about dodging just the cards. I say the chances from any of the factors Kraven would at least get thrown from the force, he isn't just gonna run through the explosions if they hit as well.

Me: When did Gambit do that to Spider-Man's webbing? I'm not familiar with the two of them encountering each other in such a manner. How did the rest of the battle play out?

I'm not sure. Since I didn't have my own scans so I snagged what I could and got it from k4tzm4n lol.

Well, possibly Gambit lost the ability to charge organic material off-panel somewhere after those showings and before AvX. It was approved by Marvel's editors, so obviously it has to be weighed in. Even if he can still do so, that's implying the battle is up close and personal, which you've already indicated would put Remy at a disadvantage. He'd have to charge Sergei successfully before getted gutted and poisoned. While no doubt powerful, Captain America successfully tanked Remy's charge, got up and proceeded to pound him, and sans shield Sergei is at least as durable as Steve is.

Nah, it was McNiven's fault. McNiven seemed either really biased or most likely didn't do his research. He had Cap tank a massive explosion with his armor being the explosive, break Gambit's staff like glass and imply Gambit couldn't charge organic matter when 3 instances in the last few years say otherwise and 2 of them happening within the last 2 years. So it was just a lack of research on his part. I mean Gambit has created smaller explosions just on Daken's arm and it was practically just bone left and he charged a lizard when he was a lizard and neither of those mushroom clouded. Also popping the head off a vamp by mildly charging her choker. I agree Cap would beat Gambit but to do it in the fashion he did when Gambit has stalemated Daredevil, stalemated Blade, trick Wolverine and charge articles of clothing and people themselves without mini mushroom clouds happening and since he can wreck sentinels and things with his cards, I fail to see how or why he couldn't have held off Steve a bit longer or even why his staff broke like that. It was pretty one sided IMO.

So far, you've shown impressive reflex showings for Remy, but what I will ask you is to show people on Kraven's level that he has successfully defeated and not just hung with in combat situations like this. Kraven has beaten Spider-Man successfully, Vermin successfully, Daredevil successfully, and his less skilled son Alyosha has successfully defeated Black Panther. Gambit has lost to Bullseye, who is inferior to Matt, and also lost to Captain America recently.

I guess the track record is impressive, however, I haven't seen the fights and I haven't seen anything from Kraven that consistently puts him on a skill level that would allow him to take out the likes of Daredevil and his stats shouldn't be to overbearing for DD but that is a different debate for a different place. In fact, IIRC Black Panther then beat Aloysha in the 2nd round. Spider-Man I can understand but Pete has always been given trouble from skilled fighters at times. Wolverine, Daken, Cap, Taskmaster, Daredevil. Not saying they should win but since Kraven is at least significantly more skilled than Parker he can challenge him and people with stats less than Kraven have done so. And has Kraven ever just straight up beat Spider-Man in a random encounter or have all of them been through mostly plot powers in some form? Not that they are PIS or anything but just Kraven using some form of prep or scheme to take Parker.

@BringnIt said:

I can't get two of the captions to post for some reason, but the first set of scans shows Sergei blitzing Kaine, a physically superior Spider-Man clone. Kaine looked to take Kraven out before he could react, and Sergei was able to get up from the chair, disrobe and slash Kaine's throat before he could react.

The third set of scans shows Kraven cutting a blood-lusted Spider-Man, who was fast enough to dodge bullets and not merely the aim as is usually the case, and who was clearly operating at above-normal levels. Had he poisoned his blade like he normally would have, the fight would have ended there. The last scan shows that Sergei was seeking death, however, not victory. He also was able to dislocate Spider-Man's shoulder in close combat here, an impressive feat.

The one with Spider-Man is fine and the one with the henchmen I don't see as something Gambit can't replicate. The one with Kaine though I seem to have an issue with. In the fact I don't think I've ever seen Kraven blitz Spider-Man or a speed feat that suggests he could. But there was also the fact he was mentioning that Kaine was scared so it's possible in him being scared he was off his game?

I don't think Gambit needs to beat anyone super skilled, hanging with them is just fine to show his level. He's hung with DD, Blade, Cap (briefly in a book that heavily favored him), brief skirmish with Daken. Gambit threw a card at a car causing it to explode to get Daken's attention, then Daken tried seducing him in which Gambit crushed his windpipe with his staff. Then I guess Daken went in for a strike but Gambit cracked him on the head and then Daken went for a punch which Gambit caught then he proceeded to charge said arm and blow it to bone. The only other skilled people I can think of he beat are Batroc and Zaran but the fight was kind of cheesy and it was when Gambit charged things by looking (not New Son. Gambit originally charged things by look instead of touch). He also beat Bishop when Bishop was mind controlled and Gambit didn't use his powers, just his staff fighting and agility. And he punked Sabretooth, who was in partial restraints, with his staff. But IIRC Victor got the drop on him and Jubilee when they were swimming so don't hold me to that one. So he's either stalemated some decent fighters and handled his own against them despite few skill shows. And that should be enough here coupled with explosives that have range and can rip apart massive robots and vehicles, I think he can take Kraven here for the majority albeit slim 6-7/10. I do think you made some great points I just don't see them as enough to get the majority.

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#31 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

I will make my reply in full tomorrow when I am back at my desktop. @god_spawn Hope all is well, and I don't mind waiting for your responses and allowing the discussion to run its course.

#32 Posted by God_Spawn (37193 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt: Thank you, I appreciate it. Let this awesome debate continue.

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#33 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Gambit.

#34 Edited by jashro44 (19231 posts) - - Show Bio

@jeanroygrant said:

Gambit.

This isn't who we think wins its who we think put up a better argument between god_spawn and BringnIt. And I don't think there done yet.

#35 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@BringnIt:

Me: While your reference to Gambit defeating Wolverine does show some creativity in skill, depending on how weakened Wolverine was Kraven potentially could beat him without trickery. More importantly, the showing has limited relevance since the Danger Room played a critical role in Remy's victory.

Depending how weakened Logan is Gambit can defeat him without trickery as well. But that is beside the point. The point of it was in even in the midst of a fight Gambit can readily employ the environment. There are plenty of obstacles here and things for Remy to take to his advantage and it isn't something he is shy to doing. He isn't going to wait for Kraven to get there. As I previously stated, he would most likely toss some cards and start heading back. He is more comfortable at a range and I still see it will be hard for Kraven to get across that gap.

Me: In the event that Kraven is unable to cross the gap, which I still maintain he can, as I have said prior he could always head in the opposite direction to regroup and stalk Gambit. I don't see Gambit having the time to charge anything very large here, as he will need to be constantly on the move if he wants to keep it at range due to Sergei's speed.

Additionally, while stalemating Daredevil in an agility contest is a nice testament to Gambit's agility, the scan on the second post of this thread has shown Kraven's own ability to not only keep up with Matt but defeat him. Matt was saved by Natasha at the start of the next issue.

They were still fighting in the feat. The point of it was Gambit can keep up with someone with enhanced senses, agility and acrobatic ability as Daredevil but also use his skill with a staff to make it hard for Matt to get through his defenses. And Gambit didn't resort to using any of his powers in that fight too. If Gambit did use his powers he would have most likely defeated Matt since both were relatively close to each other in their respective weapons.

Me: Possibly, yes. Perhaps not. It seemed like neither was going at maximum capacity. Kraven will have no such reservation, and as seen in his battle with Bullseye, Lester had the upper hand and Gambit even admitted he was better. I know you view it as a low showing, but a victory over Matt in the situation is not a foregone conclusion as seen by their respective battles against Lester.

As seen in his battle with them, though, Sergei is good enough to not only beat Daredevil but simultaneously have the upper hand on Matt AND Black Widow.

Me: I'll concede that Gambit does have extremely good reflexes, particularly in the case of dodging projectiles, but a moment's distraction would allow Sergei to use his top-end speed to close the distance. Alternatively, another situation would be if Gambit is somehow successful at keeping at range--unlikely, in my opinion--but Kraven could use the space to disappear and stalk Gambit, using his superior senses and tracking ability.
Me: As you said, bullets are indeed the jobbers of the comic book world. Spider-Man has dodged bullets, even catching them in his hand once, and yet Kraven has tagged even a top-of-his-game Spider-Man.
Additionally, he's no stranger to dodging bullets himself. 75 feet really isn't much of a gap. An impressive time to run 120 feet in for an NFL athlete is about a 4.2, so about 30 feet per second. A top Olympic sprint could probably close the distance in two seconds. Sergei has faster reflexes and speed than either. He will probably have to dodge or tank one projectile attack before he's in close, something he's perfectly capable of doing.

I'll cover these in the same post. While I agree Kraven is good at stalking and would probably get a drop on Remy in a different setting, Gambit is used to traversing the cities as I stated in my main post. Remy is a thief so stealth and how it operates is something he is good at. He may not have the same advantages that Kraven has when doing it but in a place where I think the environment favors Gambit it won't be so cut and dry. If Kraven heads to an alley to climb up to a building or something Remy won't just stay there, he will do the same or go to the rooftop to try and keep a lock on him. Kraven would probably find him eventually but if he finds him off guard is a completely different thing.

Me: While Remy is undoubtedly a good thief and as such versed in stealth, to my knowledge he doesn't have superhuman senses like Kraven does. Sergei was able to successfully stalk and hit with a hallucinogenic dart T'Challa in Black Panther: Man Without Fear #519, and T'Challa is also an expert when it comes to stealth and more importantly has enhanced senses. While T'Challa originally knew he was being followed, Sergei was still able to get the drop on him. He also made testimonials to Kraven's skill, calling him I believe possibly the greatest hunter ever to live (I'd need to re-read for the exact quotation) and being very effusive of Sergei's skill in his inner monologue.

Not only that, but Sergei and his less skilled progeny have successfully stealth attacked Spider-Man despite his spider sense.

This is also a man who has made it a lifetime of tracking animals and successfully stalking them with ease, all of which have superior senses to Gambit's.

And while your stats make sense to that of a normal person it isn't here. It's like me saying Namor can effectively blitz Psylocke even though his top speed is mach 1 (round a regular bullet speed) and she has perceived and dodged bullets before. To a regular person it may sound impressive but to people who perceive things such as bullets and can deflect them it really isn't. It's similar to tennis. A person can't run 100 mph but players can deflect serves going over 100 mph. I've done it before in high school when I played, some of my friends did it etc. In comics in a close range fight the speed dodging is compensated for by skill. Hence why say Logan isn't as fast as Spider-Man but his combat speed coupled with his skill is enough to tag Parker, same goes for Kraven. But since this isn't close range at the start, while Kraven can move faster than Gambit in travel speed, his reflexes are up there enough that coupled with his own skill he can at least counter or dodge the initial charge and first strike. If he does so he has the chance to tag him with a card and keep the distance and I don't see Kraven brushing them off that easily. Gambit's charged dirt and flung Bishop back, he's wrecked sentinels and other large robots with a few of those things and a charged staff thrown leveled a house. And considering it is a city there will buildings on both sides, Gambit's typical go to card strategy is wide arcs and multiple cards and you saw how accurate he was with them. I can't say he will tag Kraven on the first hit dead on but as I stated with his perception and own speed he should be able to at least launch off 2 arcs of cards with possible vehicles and other environmental things Kraven isn't just going to have to worry about dodging just the cards. I say the chances from any of the factors Kraven would at least get thrown from the force, he isn't just gonna run through the explosions if they hit as well.

Me: Well, the difference here is that while Gambit does have impressive reflex feats and agility, Kraven's primary opposition is Spider-Man who is both faster and more agile than Gambit, not even factoring in his spider sense. Sergei has never had an issue keeping it up close and personal with Peter, particularly if his adopted strategy would be to exit the scene, stalk Gambit and hit him with some sort of stealth attack dart. Gambit won't be able to deflect it if he doesn't know where it is coming from.

Me: When did Gambit do that to Spider-Man's webbing? I'm not familiar with the two of them encountering each other in such a manner. How did the rest of the battle play out?

I'm not sure. Since I didn't have my own scans so I snagged what I could and got it from k4tzm4n lol.

Well, possibly Gambit lost the ability to charge organic material off-panel somewhere after those showings and before AvX. It was approved by Marvel's editors, so obviously it has to be weighed in. Even if he can still do so, that's implying the battle is up close and personal, which you've already indicated would put Remy at a disadvantage. He'd have to charge Sergei successfully before getted gutted and poisoned. While no doubt powerful, Captain America successfully tanked Remy's charge, got up and proceeded to pound him, and sans shield Sergei is at least as durable as Steve is.

Nah, it was McNiven's fault. McNiven seemed either really biased or most likely didn't do his research. He had Cap tank a massive explosion with his armor being the explosive, break Gambit's staff like glass and imply Gambit couldn't charge organic matter when 3 instances in the last few years say otherwise and 2 of them happening within the last 2 years. So it was just a lack of research on his part. I mean Gambit has created smaller explosions just on Daken's arm and it was practically just bone left and he charged a lizard when he was a lizard and neither of those mushroom clouded. Also popping the head off a vamp by mildly charging her choker. I agree Cap would beat Gambit but to do it in the fashion he did when Gambit has stalemated Daredevil, stalemated Blade, trick Wolverine and charge articles of clothing and people themselves without mini mushroom clouds happening and since he can wreck sentinels and things with his cards, I fail to see how or why he couldn't have held off Steve a bit longer or even why his staff broke like that. It was pretty one sided IMO.

Fair enough, I'll take your word on it.

So far, you've shown impressive reflex showings for Remy, but what I will ask you is to show people on Kraven's level that he has successfully defeated and not just hung with in combat situations like this. Kraven has beaten Spider-Man successfully, Vermin successfully, Daredevil successfully, and his less skilled son Alyosha has successfully defeated Black Panther. Gambit has lost to Bullseye, who is inferior to Matt, and also lost to Captain America recently.

I guess the track record is impressive, however, I haven't seen the fights and I haven't seen anything from Kraven that consistently puts him on a skill level that would allow him to take out the likes of Daredevil and his stats shouldn't be to overbearing for DD but that is a different debate for a different place. In fact, IIRC Black Panther then beat Aloysha in the 2nd round. Spider-Man I can understand but Pete has always been given trouble from skilled fighters at times. Wolverine, Daken, Cap, Taskmaster, Daredevil. Not saying they should win but since Kraven is at least significantly more skilled than Parker he can challenge him and people with stats less than Kraven have done so. And has Kraven ever just straight up beat Spider-Man in a random encounter or have all of them been through mostly plot powers in some form? Not that they are PIS or anything but just Kraven using some form of prep or scheme to take Parker.

Well, in their one encounter he did have Matt beaten, there's no denying that. Alyosha did lose a subsequent encounter to T'Challa from what I understand (no shame in that, particularly with the vibranium suit), but Alyosha is not as effective in combat as even Ana I'd argue, much less his daddy. Sergei also did have the upper hand on T'Challa in the previous issue of Black Panther I alluded to, but there were mitigating circumstances so I won't use that as a basis for his fighting skill.

Of the ones you mentioned Peter having issues with, I'd argue with standard battle forum rules they'd all beat Gambit, too, except for possibly Matt.

Kraven has never straight up beaten Peter in a random encounter, but I've also never actually seen Kraven in a random encounter. All of his battles begin with him stalking his opponent, not the other way around.

@BringnIt said:

I can't get two of the captions to post for some reason, but the first set of scans shows Sergei blitzing Kaine, a physically superior Spider-Man clone. Kaine looked to take Kraven out before he could react, and Sergei was able to get up from the chair, disrobe and slash Kaine's throat before he could react.

The third set of scans shows Kraven cutting a blood-lusted Spider-Man, who was fast enough to dodge bullets and not merely the aim as is usually the case, and who was clearly operating at above-normal levels. Had he poisoned his blade like he normally would have, the fight would have ended there. The last scan shows that Sergei was seeking death, however, not victory. He also was able to dislocate Spider-Man's shoulder in close combat here, an impressive feat.

The one with Spider-Man is fine and the one with the henchmen I don't see as something Gambit can't replicate. The one with Kaine though I seem to have an issue with. In the fact I don't think I've ever seen Kraven blitz Spider-Man or a speed feat that suggests he could. But there was also the fact he was mentioning that Kaine was scared so it's possible in him being scared he was off his game?

Kaine has never blitzed Spider-Man but his speed is pretty much at least the same as Spider-Man's based on their showings. The Spider-Man showing in Grim Hunt is particularly impressive considering this was Spider-Man not holding back, ready to kill if he hadn't been convinced otherwise, and also again as I have mentioned was fast enough to dodge bullets AFTER they were fired.

It's widely accepted, I do believe, that most street levels dodge the aim of the gunman and not the bullets themselves. Spider-Man is one of the only streets capable of dodging the bullets themselves, and Sergei still was fast enough to tag him.

I don't think Gambit needs to beat anyone super skilled, hanging with them is just fine to show his level. He's hung with DD, Blade, Cap (briefly in a book that heavily favored him), brief skirmish with Daken. Gambit threw a card at a car causing it to explode to get Daken's attention, then Daken tried seducing him in which Gambit crushed his windpipe with his staff. Then I guess Daken went in for a strike but Gambit cracked him on the head and then Daken went for a punch which Gambit caught then he proceeded to charge said arm and blow it to bone. The only other skilled people I can think of he beat are Batroc and Zaran but the fight was kind of cheesy and it was when Gambit charged things by looking (not New Son. Gambit originally charged things by look instead of touch). He also beat Bishop when Bishop was mind controlled and Gambit didn't use his powers, just his staff fighting and agility. And he punked Sabretooth, who was in partial restraints, with his staff. But IIRC Victor got the drop on him and Jubilee when they were swimming so don't hold me to that one. So he's either stalemated some decent fighters and handled his own against them despite few skill shows. And that should be enough here coupled with explosives that have range and can rip apart massive robots and vehicles, I think he can take Kraven here for the majority albeit slim 6-7/10. I do think you made some great points I just don't see them as enough to get the majority.

See, I disagree. I don't think hanging with skilled opponents is enough for Gambit to take a majority on Kraven. Kraven has victories over Daredevil and Spider-Man and had T'Challa on the ropes before Storm intervened. He's also done well against Venom, both Flash and Eddie, and even a team of X-Men including Cyclops and Iceman (based on scans I've seen).

#36 Edited by k4tzm4n (36220 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt:

He's also done well against Venom, both Flash and Eddie

Just want to point out his son fought Eddie.

/steps out of debate

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#37 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

My fault, haven't read the issue recently. Aly or Vlad?

#38 Posted by k4tzm4n (36220 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

My fault, haven't read the issue recently. Aly or Vlad?

Aly. Vlad's career was unfortunately very short lived. He only had the chance to take on Spider-Man, Kaine and some fodder before suffering Kaine's "talk to the hand" attack.

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#39 Posted by God_Spawn (37193 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump for votes. Because of unforeseen circumstances I have no choice but to drop out of the debate. It was a good, but short one and Bringnit did a great job.

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#40 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

For my part, god_spawn made a compelling case for Gambit and I could see the matchup going either way.

#41 Posted by God_Spawn (37193 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump. I know it's been almost a week but some votes would be great.

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#42 Posted by jashro44 (19231 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll try and read through this later.

#43 Posted by Sufferthorn (1734 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote Bringnlt. His arguement convinced me almost right away.

#44 Posted by God_Spawn (37193 posts) - - Show Bio

VOTE!!!WDMIWEMDMSKWIKSE0!!!

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#45 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Give us your votes or we will take your souls.

#46 Posted by God_Spawn (37193 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

Give us your votes or we will take your souls.

Yessss, your souls.

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#47 Posted by TDK_1997 (14452 posts) - - Show Bio

Well this is a good battle but I'm thinking Gambit would win.

#48 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

Last call for votes.

#49 Edited by Frozen (10449 posts) - - Show Bio

@BringnIt said:

Last call for votes.

This was a hard debate. I'm going to have to give it to god_spawn though, I just felt he pushed his argument a bit more. Nonetheless, it was a great debate.

#50 Posted by BringnIt (3809 posts) - - Show Bio

@Frozen Fair enough, completely understand. Although you can consider yourself dead to me. Ha.