• 74 results
  • 1
  • 2
#1 Posted by BigCimmerian (8007 posts) - - Show Bio

- Galactus has just devoured planet
- This is mythology Zeus
- Morals off, battle take place on Earth, who wins and why?

#2 Posted by whydama (1093 posts) - - Show Bio

Mythology Zeus is poorly defined.

On one hand, he swallowed the universe. On the other hand, the universe to the greeks was a region between the Atlantic Ocean and Asia.

#3 Posted by Clowns_R_Us (19 posts) - - Show Bio

@whydama said:

Mythology Zeus is poorly defined.

On one hand, he swallowed the universe. On the other hand, the universe to the greeks was a region between the Atlantic Ocean and Asia.

Depends on which Mythology Zeus you're talking about. Not all of em were that powerful.

#4 Posted by BigCimmerian (8007 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#5 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by justleader (1708 posts) - - Show Bio

It depends on which version you are using..............

Orphic and Pelasgian stomp

Homer's possibly wins.

Hesoid's stalemates or loses

And im assuming this is full fed Galactus, because otherwise Galactus would lose to any version of Zeus (except maybe Hesoid's version)

#7 Edited by ShootingNova (16089 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian: Which mythology Zeus? Orphic, Pelasgian, Homer's or Hesiod's? There's distinctions between them, especially in power and feats.

#8 Posted by Mattersuit (4270 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree. Which Zeus?

#9 Posted by ShootingNova (16089 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.....

#10 Posted by ShootingNova (16089 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian: Response?

#11 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on the version, like everybody said....

#12 Posted by Bo88gdan (4393 posts) - - Show Bio

Galactus

#13 Posted by joewell (6284 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian said:

- Galactus has just devoured planet
- This is mythology Zeus
- Morals off, battle take place on Earth, who wins and why?

@ShootingNova said:

: Which mythology Zeus? Orphic, Pelasgian, Homer's or Hesiod's? There's distinctions between them, especially in power and feats.

#14 Posted by BigCimmerian (8007 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mattersuit said:

I agree. Which Zeus?

@justleader said:

It depends on which version you are using..............

Orphic and Pelasgian stomp

Homer's possibly wins.

Hesoid's stalemates or loses

And im assuming this is full fed Galactus, because otherwise Galactus would lose to any version of Zeus (except maybe Hesoid's version)

@Clowns_R_Us said:

@whydama said:

Mythology Zeus is poorly defined.

On one hand, he swallowed the universe. On the other hand, the universe to the greeks was a region between the Atlantic Ocean and Asia.

Depends on which Mythology Zeus you're talking about. Not all of em were that powerful.

@kingkronos said:

Depends on the version, like everybody said....

@joewell said:

@BigCimmerian said:

- Galactus has just devoured planet
- This is mythology Zeus
- Morals off, battle take place on Earth, who wins and why?

@ShootingNova said:

: Which mythology Zeus? Orphic, Pelasgian, Homer's or Hesiod's? There's distinctions between them, especially in power and feats.

Homer's because he is the only Zeus I've ever read.

#15 Posted by Mattersuit (4270 posts) - - Show Bio

Homer's could win.

#16 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian: Okay, here's the feats:

Hesiod also seems to imagine the Titanes as gods of time who mastered Heaven. Individually they were apparently responsible for the establishment of the portions of time:--Kronos, was time the destroyer; Krios (the Ram), leader of the constellations, and so regulator of the seasons; Koios (or Polos "the pole"), lord of the axis of heaven, around which the constellations revolved measuring the year; Hyperion, overlord of the day and night, father of sun, moon and dawn; Iapetos "the piercer," Titan-god of mortal life-span and ancestor of man; and Okeanos the earth-encircler, who oversaw the rising and setting of the heavenly bodies. Hesiod later confines five of the Titanes to the Tartarean pit, and Zeus assumes control over the regulation of time in their stead.

And now his thunder bolts would Jove [Zeus] wide scatter, but he feared the flames, unnumbered, sacred ether might ignite and burn the axle of the universe: and he remembered in the scroll of fate, there is a time appointed when the sea and earth and Heavens shall melt, and fire destroy the universe of mighty labourwrought. Such weapons by the skill of Cyclops forged, for different punishment he laid aside--for straightway he preferred to overwhelm the mortal race beneath deep waves and storms from every raining sky.

Zeus' Strength: In the Iliad, Book 8, Homer relates a story in which Zeus boasts to the other gods about his strength, saying that if one were to hang a golden chain from the sky, and attach the earth, the sun, and the moon, and the sea and all the other gods to it, he will be able to pull them up, and yet all of them combined would not be able to pull him down out of heaven.

In addition to defeating Gaia, Typhoeus, Titans, and Gigantes.

By Homer's version. Zeus was the leader of Moria (Fates) the equivalent of the Norse Norns. They controlled even the fates of the gods, and one of the most powerful beings.

Pausanias, Description of Greece 5. 15. 5 :

"There is an altar [at Olympia] with an inscription ‘to Moiragetes’ ‘to the Bringer of the Fates.’ This is plainly a surname of Zeus, who knows the affairs of men, all that the Moirai (Moirae) give them, and all that is destined for them."

#17 Posted by bornstar (1320 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mattersuit said:

Homer's could win.

this

#18 Posted by justleader (1708 posts) - - Show Bio

Homer's Zeus wins, mostly because of his defeat of typhoeus and Gaia (simultaneously), and is more powerful than all the olympians combined, and in the iliad Homer did state that Zeus is all knowing and all powerful (though he also stated that only Nyx is above Zeus).

So Homer's Zeus wins, but this is a close battle.

#19 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

Hrm...I dunno....Most of what Homer's Zeus can do Galactus can do as well, along with a plethora of other stuff

#20 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@justleader said:

It depends on which version you are using..............

Orphic and Pelasgian stomp

Homer's possibly wins.

Hesoid's stalemates or loses

And im assuming this is full fed Galactus, because otherwise Galactus would lose to any version of Zeus (except maybe Hesoid's version)

#21 Posted by ShootingNova (16089 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jayfournines said:

Hrm...I dunno....Most of what Homer's Zeus can do Galactus can do as well, along with a plethora of other stuff

No..... no, he can't. Homer's Zeus wins.

#22 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

Galactus not only wins, he dominates.

#23 Posted by The Red Menace (217 posts) - - Show Bio

What exactly about Orphic Zeus lets him roflstomp guys like Galactus and Imperiex?

#24 Posted by Jayfournines (4024 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Jayfournines said:

Hrm...I dunno....Most of what Homer's Zeus can do Galactus can do as well, along with a plethora of other stuff

No..... no, he can't. Homer's Zeus wins.

To be honest I don't really see how.

#25 Posted by ShootingNova (16089 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Red Menace said:

What exactly about Orphic Zeus lets him roflstomp guys like Galactus and Imperiex?

Absolute omnipotence...... destroying, re-creating and merging with everything in Orphic myth.

@Jayfournines said:

@ShootingNova said:

@Jayfournines said:

Hrm...I dunno....Most of what Homer's Zeus can do Galactus can do as well, along with a plethora of other stuff

No..... no, he can't. Homer's Zeus wins.

To be honest I don't really see how.

He can defeat two beings (simultaneously), both of which threaten to tear apart the universe (Gaia and Typhon, specifically). Then he can turn his hands hotter than the sun, he can overpower all the Olympians with ease, and using simply physical strength, can overpower all the Olympians, Gaia and Ouranos simultaneously. And has the power to destroy the universe. Galactus isn't really possessing any chance of winning unless he's at 100%, but even then.....

@Hyper_God said:

Galactus not only wins, he dominates.

No. Just no.

#26 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Hyper_God said:

Galactus not only wins, he dominates.

No. Just no.

Yes he does . Zeus defeated the Titans ? Galactus slaughtered the Proemial Gods . Comic book Abstracts/Cosmic Beings/Space Gods like Galactus have feats which sh1t all over anything mythological deities like Zeus were ever presented as displaying .

Unless you're confusing mythological Zeus with the Demiurge of Olympic mythology , I simply don't see how any version of Zeus is winning against a fed Galactus .

#27 Posted by ShootingNova (16089 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyper_God said:

Yes he does . Zeus defeated the Titans ? Galactus slaughtered the Proemial Gods . Comic book Abstracts/Cosmic Beings/Space Gods like Galactus have feats which sh1t all over anything mythological deities like Zeus were ever presented as displaying .

Unless you're confusing mythological Zeus with the Demiurge of Olympic mythology , I simply don't see how any version of Zeus is winning against a fed Galactus .

What Demiurge? Gaia? Chaos? Eurynome? Protogonos?

Clearly you have not read on Greek mythology.

I can accept Hesiod's Zeus losing to Galactus, and that's it. Homer's Zeus defeated two beings (Gaia and Typhon), each of which possessed the power to destroy the universe, he himself possessing that power. He could make his hands hotter than the sun, and his physical strength exceeded that of Gaia (who could be considered a "Demiurge"), Ouranos and all the other Olympians in simultaneity. After defeating Kronos, he was able to take his father's power and the power before that, giving him the power over the universe and the power over time.

Any version of Zeus loses to Galactus? Seriously? Orphic Zeus blinks Galactus, being absolutely omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, transcendent, and having destroyed, re-created and "merged" with the entire Orphic myth.

#28 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7011 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe Galactus wins, because Zeus (mythological version) lacks comparable feats in the scope of things. The Greek notion of Zeus' powers, pale in comparison to modern comics depiction of power and being "god-like". The tales of Zeus and all his conquests, were allegorical in nature, representing an order in the world which men could not understand, and cannot be adequately defined. The Greek notion of "omnipotence" and "god-like" power are very different from our interpretation of it. The universe according to the Greeks was a like a snow globe, not the the never ending expansion we think of today. Zeus' powers within those confines would indeed be god-like, but compared to the large multiverse of comicdom? I personally don't see any comparison, or resemblance. Simply saying, I don't think one can adequately define Zeus' feats in terms of modern comic levels. Interpretations would most likely be lost in translation.

#29 Posted by ShootingNova (16089 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf: The Greeks views of almost anything were distorted, and they had many views on the universe. Some thought it was finite, others believed it was infinite.

#30 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Hyper_God said:

Yes he does . Zeus defeated the Titans ? Galactus slaughtered the Proemial Gods . Comic book Abstracts/Cosmic Beings/Space Gods like Galactus have feats which sh1t all over anything mythological deities like Zeus were ever presented as displaying .

Unless you're confusing mythological Zeus with the Demiurge of Olympic mythology , I simply don't see how any version of Zeus is winning against a fed Galactus .

What Demiurge? Gaia? Chaos? Eurynome? Protogonos?

Clearly you have not read on Greek mythology.

I can accept Hesiod's Zeus losing to Galactus, and that's it. Homer's Zeus defeated two beings (Gaia and Typhon), each of which possessed the power to destroy the universe, he himself possessing that power. He could make his hands hotter than the sun, and his physical strength exceeded that of Gaia (who could be considered a "Demiurge"), Ouranos and all the other Olympians in simultaneity. After defeating Kronos, he was able to take his father's power and the power before that, giving him the power over the universe and the power over time.

Any version of Zeus loses to Galactus? Seriously? Orphic Zeus blinks Galactus, being absolutely omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, transcendent, and having destroyed, re-created and "merged" with the entire Orphic myth.

Any demiurge which would be considered the the progenitor of the cosmos in Greek mythology .

Zeus being able to defeat the native demiurge(s) of his mythology doesn't equate to being able to do the same to Galactus . Under Fraction's run , comic book Odin recently effortlessly contained a power which could have burnt the entire universe(and then gone on to do the same to the rest of the multiverse via Otherworld) , and we all saw how Odin fared against Galactus , that too under Fraction .

The Greeks' views on the universe were highly limited compared to what is believed today and consequently portrayed in comic books . A geocentric universe is by default a limited creation as compared to the modern day universe . And even if they believed in an infinite universe(as you insinuated in your previous post) , then that too becomes inconsequential because Georg Cantor showed that there are levels of infinity , and his theory is heavily endorsed by Marvel .

How does Orphic Zeus blink Galactus out of existence ? If he was an absolutely omnipotent being in the real-life sense(as the the phrase would imply with a mythological deity character like that) , then Galactus doesn't even need to fight him to defeat him . The Omnipotence Paradox takes care of that . Same goes for his "absolute" omniscience and omnipresence as well .

Galactus wins this handily .

#31 Edited by P0rtal (872 posts) - - Show Bio

Mythology Zeus is not a universal entity. His Titan father soloed all of his children and it took the combined might of the sons to defeat him. Even Zeus fears Cronus on the loose, He was the Great Grandchild of Gaia and Uranus. Zeus never had full control over anything he desired, his power as a God was limited, albeit much more than the other Olympians but still not nearly as potent as the things Galactus has done. Galactus Wins even against the older mythology version of Zeus. The upside is that Galactus cannot kill him, because Zeus is immortal. However, Galactus should be able to reign a smack down on him for as long as he wants. In Greek Myth, Zeus is on par with his son, Hercules. Galactus would smoosh Hercules and Zeus without much of a problem.

Zeus in Marvel is supposed to be physically more potent than Odin. Where Odin was the master tactician, Zeus was the Brawler. If he had psychic powers like Odin Displayed in his fight with Galactus, then it would be a little more of a show than what Odin was capable of. Thats purely speculative and its possible that Odin has much stronger Psychic and magical power, but Zeus is able to tank anything Odin would be able to toss on him, being physically superior and actually immortal himself even in the marvel version. Odin is more submissive, Zeus would take the fight right to Galactus and sucker punch him until his head popped off his body. If Thors hammer and Hulks punch can devastate Galactus with physical hits, Zeus would be able to punch a hole through Galactus's face. I vote Statemate once again, just like with Odin. There is no way to say who could win. Its a draw.

#32 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@P0rtal said:

Zeus in Marvel is supposed to be physically more potent than Odin. Where Odin was the master tactician, Zeus was the Brawler. If he had psychic powers like Odin Displayed in his fight with Galactus, then it would be a little more of a show than what Odin was capable of. Thats purely speculative and its possible that Odin has much stronger Psychic and magical power, but Zeus is able to tank anything Odin would be able to toss on him, being physically superior and actually immortal himself even in the marvel version. Odin is more submissive, Zeus would take the fight right to Galactus and sucker punch him until his head popped off his body. If Thors hammer and Hulks punch can devastate Galactus with physical hits, Zeus would be able to punch a hole through Galactus's face. I vote Statemate once again, just like with Odin. There is no way to say who could win. Its a draw.

Wrong . Marvel Zeus has no feats to indicate that he's physically more potent than Odin . Odin has dished out and tanked galaxy-busting attacks , a level of power that Zeus never displayed in combat .

Odin already was on the losing end of a battle against a fed Galactus and had to enter the Destroyer Armor to even out the scales . Odin admitted later on that his tp was insufficient against Galactus . Their battle was far from a stalemate .

Hulk's punches have never devastated Galactus on-panel . LOL , where did you get that from ? Thor's hammer strike was performed against a distracted Galactus who was engaging Odin . In the Mighty Thor Annual , Galactus tanked a point-blank amped Godblast from Thor .

Odin more submissive , lol ? Iirc , it was Odin(along with the rest of Asgard) who went up against Celestials while the rest of the skyfathers(Zeus included) hid in their home dimensions like a bunch of wu$$ies too scared to lend a hand .

Galactus dominates both Marvel and Mythological versions of Zeus .

#33 Posted by ShootingNova (16089 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyper_God said:

Any demiurge which would be considered the the progenitor of the cosmos in Greek mythology .

Which would include Gaia. Homer's Zeus (the one being used here) defeated both Gaia and Typhon (the son of both Gaia and Tartarus, Hell).

The Greeks' views on the universe were highly limited compared to what is believed today and consequently portrayed in comic books . A geocentric universe is by default a limited creation as compared to the modern day universe . And even if they believed in an infinite universe(as you insinuated in your previous post) , then that too becomes inconsequential because Georg Cantor showed that there are levels of infinity , and his theory is heavily endorsed by Marvel.

As said before, the Greeks (and even us) had different views on the universe. It is a theory, believed by some and not believed in by others. Simply because one of the characters is a Marvel character doesn't mean the battleground is Marvel-based.

How does Orphic Zeus blink Galactus out of existence ? If he was an absolutely omnipotent being in the real-life sense(as the the phrase would imply with a mythological deity character like that) , then Galactus doesn't even need to fight him to defeat him . The Omnipotence Paradox takes care of that . Same goes for his "absolute" omniscience and omnipresence as well.

Which is why Orphic Zeus is considered transcendent, unable to be comprehended by us. Zeus was described as "the earth, the seas, the air, and what transcended them all". Again with the absolute omnipotence, they are generally attributed with "transcendence" in which way we cannot understand them or their nature. Even so, the counter to said paradox would be:

His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power. If you choose to say 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words 'God can.'... It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of his creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because his power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

Lewis, 18

Even though that is speaking of Christian God rather than Zeus.

Galactus wins this handily .

Again, not at all.

Galactus has, been considered to be inferior to Eternity, who is time itself. That would be in equation to Kronos, and Zeus has the power of and over time. Galactus has repeatedly shown to be harmed by physical beings who, at best, have shown power (aided by allies) to "blast a planet out of orbit". We have Galactus being defeated by a fusion of Celestials.

@P0rtal: The fact that you said Mythological Zeus is on equal grounds with Heracles is enough proof you know little on the subject at hand.

#34 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Hyper_God said:

Any demiurge which would be considered the the progenitor of the cosmos in Greek mythology .

Which would include Gaia. Homer's Zeus (the one being used here) defeated both Gaia and Typhon (the son of both Gaia and Tartarus, Hell).

It doesn't make any difference in the slightest .

As said before, the Greeks (and even us) had different views on the universe.
It is a theory, believed by some and not believed in by others. Simply because one of the characters is a Marvel character doesn't mean the battleground is Marvel-based.

The Greeks for the most part beleived in a geocentric universe, which validates all my previous points about the limited scale and scope of the cosmos as defined by greek philosophy .

This exact hole-filled argument is also made by anti-evolution propagandists . Cantor's theory is endorsed by the mathematical community . It doesn't matter whether laypersons like you or me accept or reject it . Marvel accepts it , real-life math accepts it . That much is enough .

Which is why Orphic Zeus is considered transcendent, unable to be comprehended by us. Zeus was described as "the earth, the seas, the air, and what transcended them all". Again with the absolute omnipotence, they are generally attributed with "transcendence" in which way we cannot understand them or their nature. Even so, the counter to said paradox would be:

His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power. If you choose to say 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words 'God can.'... It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of his creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because his power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

Lewis, 18

LOL , you utilized a description of the Christian God and superimposed it on Zeus ? Not to mention that this particularly ridiculous quote was taken from one of the weakest debaters of his time ala CS Lewis .The guy merely evaded the serious detriment that the Omnipotence Paradox(a subject which perplexes philosophers even to this day) posed to the concept of God's infinite power

Again, not at all.

Galactus has, been considered to be inferior to Eternity, who is time itself. That would be in equation to Kronos, and Zeus has the power of and over time. Galactus has repeatedly shown to be harmed by physical beings who, at best, have shown power (aided by allies) to "blast a planet out of orbit". We have Galactus being defeated by a fusion of Celestials.

Horrible reasoning . You think that just because Eternity in some of his appearances is portrayed as the Abstract embodiment of time that his abilities are limited to temporal aspects of natue ? Nevermind the fact that Dormammu became the Supreme Being of all reality by replacing his essence with that of Eternity's or that Thanos achieved a similar goal in Infinity Gauntlet . Lets ignore all the times when Galactus himself has displayed nigh absolute control over time . Are you even aware that Galactus' Power Cosmic arsenal consists of heavy amounts of temporal manipulation ? Fact remains that in terms of overall portrayal , Eternity can hardly be considered the equivalent of Greek Kronos . Marvel Kronos is a much better candidate for that .

There has been context involved whenever Galactus was harmed . I guess you're probably referring to the instances of Thor hurting Galactus from Killemall's scans in that dumb debunking thread ? I presume you also forgot that Galactus tanked a point blank amped Godblast in Mighty Thor Annual or that his battle with two other Abstracts brought the Multiverse to its breaking point in that very same issue .

That Celestial fusion was created from beings that survived a nuking from an alternate IG , no sold blasts from an alternate UN on at least one occasion and were considered such powerful foes that Nathaniel Richards speculated that a Universal Power(Adult Franklin Richards) would be unable to defeat them on his own . Very powerful indeed .

Galactus dominates Zeus like the broken old man he is .

#35 Posted by Freefa11 (2337 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

He can defeat two beings (simultaneously), both of which threaten to tear apart the universe (Gaia and Typhon, specifically).

Do you have specific lines for these feats? In my experience, with so much of this stuff being derived from poetry, people sometimes can be a little liberal with their interpretations. I remember I used to argue on a D&D forum about the invincibility of gods, and one guy would always bring up Marduk and how he "cut the universe in half." To which I would say, you could just as easily make the statement "he cut a serpent in half." Both would be distortions of what was really stated and meant.

I do remember Typhon raising hell. I do not recall if hew was stated to threaten the "universe." I also do not remember Gaia doing so. Plus, as pointed out earlier, the Greek mythological universe is not the same as ours or the Marvel universe. It is, generally, smaller in conception. The sun is a disc that flies around the earth. The stars are not objects like the sun, but actually smaller, less luminous things. The sky is a solid object (sometimes made of metal) that can be physically held by Atlas. And I'm not sure if this is addressed in mythology, but I believe by the time of Aristotle, one of the "proofs" of the geocentric model they used was the fact there was no observable parallax in the stars, which there should have been if the earth had been moving. This, of course, works off the assumption that the stars are not even remotely as distant as they really are.

The universe of Greek Mythology might very well occupy a region of space smaller than our solar system.

Then he can turn his hands hotter than the sun,

That's pretty useless. The sun can't even hurt the Silver Surfer, let alone Galactus.

he can overpower all the Olympians with ease, and using simply physical strength, can overpower all the Olympians, Gaia and Ouranos simultaneously.

Most of the Olympians would not be of any consequence to Galactus either. I remember Homer mentioning several times that Zeus could take all the Olympians at once, but I do not remember him including Gaia and Ouranos at the same time, and it certainly never actually happened, since Ouranos was deposed before Zeus was born.

After defeating Kronos, he was able to take his father's power and the power before that, giving him the power over the universe and the power over time.

I don't remember Homer saying Zeus took his fathers power. I also recall reading (I think in Lattimore's translation of the Iliad, but I'd have to check) that Kronos being linked to time was a connection made by later mythographers, based on his name sounding the same as the word chronos (spelled with a chi, as opposed to the Titan's name, which was spelled with a kappa). Are there any myths where Kronos actually exhibited control over time? I also think that calling Ouranos "the universe" would be one of those liberal interpretations I mentioned above.

For what it's worth, this is what Scott & Liddell's Greek-English Lexicon has to say on Ouranos (transliterating the Greek, since I don't have a handy greek font)

I. heaven: in Hom. and Hes., 1. the vault or firmament of heaven, the sky, conceived as a concave hemisphere resting on the verge of earth, upborne by the pillars of Atlas, Od., Hes., etc; conceived to be solid metal, kalkeos, poluxalkos, sidereos, Hom.: on this vault the sun performed his course, Od.; the stars were fixed upon it, and moved with it, for it was supposed to be always revolving, Il.

While the height of the hemisphere is not given, it is described as being about the same diameter as the earth. From this, it does not look to me as if either Homer or Hesiod believed in an infinite universe, and probably not even a particularly large one.

#36 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyper_God: @Freefa11: It comes to how you interpret the Greek-mythology universe. Many Greek philosophers wondered what if a "thing" crossed the finite universe. So not all viewed the universe as finite. Besides you are forgetting Tartarus which is described as an infinite void below the earth. And it is considered part of the Greek universe.

#37 Edited by justleader (1708 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyper_God:

That's your interpretations, now let's look at some facts:

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 38. 90 ff :

While he directed his eye to the upper air and the flood of stars, the diverse races of earth and the restless back of the sea, gazing round and round on the foundations of the infinite universe, the shining horses rolled along under the yoke over their usual course through the Zodiakos

Ovid, Metamorphoses 2. 156 ff :

"The four swift horses of Sol [Helios the Sun] . . . kick at the gates, neighing and snorting fire, and Tethys then, her grandson’s fate undreamt, draws back the bars and makes the horses free of all the boundless heavens. Forth they go, tearing away, and cleave with beating hooves the clouds before them, and on wings outride the winds that westwards from the morning blow [and the sun rises up above the horizon]."

@Freefa11:

"Lord Zeus! Stand up as champion of your own children! Let me never see Athene mingled with Typhon, she who knows not the way of a man with a maid! Make not a mother of the unmothered! Fight, brandish your lightning, the fiery spear of Olympos! Gather once more your clouds, lord of the rain! For the foundations of the steadfast universe are already shaking under Typhon’s hands : the four blended elements are melted! Deo has renounced her harvests.
"Then Phusis (Nature), who governs the universe and recreates its substance [after the world-shattering battle between Zeus and Typhoeus], closed up the gaping rents in earth’s broken surface, and sealed once more with the bond of indivisible joinery those island cliffs which had been rent from their bed."

Phusis (equated to Phanes who is the creator) recreates the universe after the battle between Zeus and Typhoeus

Also the titanomachy shook the cosmos:

Hesiod, Theogony 681 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :

"[The war of the gods and Titanes shook the whole cosmos :] These [the gods and Hekatonkheires], then, stood against the Titanes in grim strife, holding huge rocks in their strong hands

this is all just general Zeus, Orphic Zeus on the other hand can be summarized in one small paragraph

Aeschylus, Fragment 70 (Heliades [Daughters of Helios])
Zeus is the fiery upper air, Zeus is the earth, Zeus is the heaven;
Zeus is all things, and whatever transcends them.

I dont think i need to tell you the uniqueness of this concept, that not only is he creator of creation (like most creators of the universe), but he is everything and everyone in creation and transcends everything thus transcending itself (Zeus is not male here)

Some other sources on orphic Zeus:

The language applied to Zeus is monotheistic in tone, and his praises are chanted in strains of the loftiest exaltation. He is "king of kings, most blessed of the blessed, most mighty of rulers." His power "knows no superior, nor is any one enthroned above him; swifter than speech is the accomplishment of his purpose." He "holds for ever the balance of the scales: nothing comes to mortal man but by the will of Zeus." "Zeus is sky, and earth, and heaven; Zeus is all things, yea, greater than all things." His power, though invisible, is omnipotent and omnipresent.

http://www.theatredatabase.com/ancient/aeschylus_008.html

There are many more but i dont think they

#38 Posted by MisterGuyMan (2042 posts) - - Show Bio

To be fair,"destroying the universe" for Zeus means something far different from "destroying the universe" for Galactus.

#39 Posted by MasterJohn (2471 posts) - - Show Bio

I say Zeus wins..

#40 Posted by ShootingNova (16089 posts) - - Show Bio

@MisterGuyMan said:

To be fair,"destroying the universe" for Zeus means something far different from "destroying the universe" for Galactus.

True.

@Freefa11: Partly true. The universe, viewed by the Greeks, alternated. Some believed it was infinite, others believed it was finite but still vast. Some believed it was too transcendent for us to understand.

#41 Posted by ShootingNova (16089 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyper_God: What are you talking about? Making no difference? When you said "unless I was referring to the Demiurge of Greek mythology, Zeus has no chance against Galactus", I was assuming you meant said Demiurge could actually win. Zeus defeated said Demiurge and a universal-destroyer in simultaneity.

To be honest, a better thing to say to the Omnipotence Paradox is that at the time of the creating of the rock, the omnipotent being would not desire to lift it. When he desired so, he would lift it. That's what @kingkronos: said to me, although there are arguably better responses. But an absolutely omnipotent being is too transcendent to be known by us. This is an off-topic discussion anyways.

#42 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@justleader said:

@Hyper_God:

That's your interpretations, now let's look at some facts:

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 38. 90 ff :

While he directed his eye to the upper air and the flood of stars, the diverse races of earth and the restless back of the sea, gazing round and round on the foundations of the infinite universe, the shining horses rolled along under the yoke over their usual course through the Zodiakos

Ovid, Metamorphoses 2. 156 ff :

"The four swift horses of Sol [Helios the Sun] . . . kick at the gates, neighing and snorting fire, and Tethys then, her grandson’s fate undreamt, draws back the bars and makes the horses free of all the boundless heavens. Forth they go, tearing away, and cleave with beating hooves the clouds before them, and on wings outride the winds that westwards from the morning blow [and the sun rises up above the horizon]."

As I said it before it doesn't matter whether they intended for their mythological cosmos to be infinite because as Georg Cantor showed during later time periods , there are levels of infinity , a concept which Marvel incorporated into their cosmological power hierarchy .

Galactus nearly destroyed the multiverse in his recent battle with Scrier and the Other which is more than what any version of Zeus has ever done . Galactus wins this battle as has been reiterated throughout this thread .

#43 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Hyper_God: What are you talking about? Making no difference? When you said "unless I was referring to the Demiurge of Greek mythology, Zeus has no chance against Galactus", I was assuming you meant said Demiurge could actually win. Zeus defeated said Demiurge and a universal-destroyer in simultaneity.

To be honest, a better thing to say to the Omnipotence Paradox is that at the time of the creating of the rock, the omnipotent being would not desire to lift it. When he desired so, he would lift it. That's what @kingkronos: said to me, although there are arguably better responses. But an absolutely omnipotent being is too transcendent to be known by us. This is an off-topic discussion anyways.

Nope, I implied that unless he had power on the same scale , he wouldn't stand a hair of a chance . With power on that scale he might be able to last come time with Galactus but ultimately he goes down or relents . Either way Galactus wins .

Nope, then that implies that he can lift that rock and hence he can't create a rock which even he couldn't lift . A very contradictory solution to a paradoxical axiom . That is why philosophers classified two types of omnipotents : essential and accidental . The Essential Omnipotent is one that can literally do anything even if it defies the most fundamental tenets of abstract logic . The Accidental Omnipotent is constrained by by abstract logic and hence falls victim to the Omnipotence Paradox . From what I have read regarding the subject the Essential Omnipotent is a monotheistic Supreme Being , a category under which Zeus doesn't fall . Hence , Zeus as an absolute omnipotent being(as stated by you) ends up getting undone by the Omnipotence Paradox .

#44 Posted by Freefa11 (2337 posts) - - Show Bio

@justleader said:

@Hyper_God:

That's your interpretations, now let's look at some facts:

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 38. 90 ff :

While he directed his eye to the upper air and the flood of stars, the diverse races of earth and the restless back of the sea, gazing round and round on the foundations of the infinite universe, the shining horses rolled along under the yoke over their usual course through the Zodiakos

Ovid, Metamorphoses 2. 156 ff :

"The four swift horses of Sol [Helios the Sun] . . . kick at the gates, neighing and snorting fire, and Tethys then, her grandson’s fate undreamt, draws back the bars and makes the horses free of all the boundless heavens. Forth they go, tearing away, and cleave with beating hooves the clouds before them, and on wings outride the winds that westwards from the morning blow [and the sun rises up above the horizon]."

I appreciate you actually citing primary sources; it is genuinely helpful. However, you are making two big mistakes. One is taking poetry as literal truth, the other is relying heavily on the semantics of one translation. Both are problematic, not only from a logic point of view, but just in terms of actually gaining the meaning of what the author intended. For example, the translation I have on hand of Ovid (by Humphries) reads thus;

"Meanwhile the horses, Pyrois, Eous, Aethon, and Phlegon, filled the air with neighing, snorting, and pawing at their bars. And Tethys, ignorant of her grandson's fate, let fall the barriers: they had their chance at Heaven, the horses, now, and took it, and their hoofs cut through the clouds before them, and their wings bore them aloft, and they overtook the winds that rose from the same east."

There are some pretty clear differences in structure and wording, even though both passages end up amounting to pretty much the same thing. But here, notably, Humphries simply mentions "Heaven," not "boundless heavens." I do not have the original Latin to check, and don't read latin anyway, so I have no way of making an argument for which could be technically more accurate, I'm just saying it is far from a hard proof.

And getting back to taking poetry at face value: obviously, not everything is meant to be questioned, but it is a tricky situation and is very similar to taking hyperbole at face value. I have a scan in which Galactus claims he can shake the universe with "the mearest whisper," but that doesn't mean I expect it to actually be a true gauge of his power.

@Freefa11:
Phusis (equated to Phanes who is the creator) recreates the universe after the battle between Zeus and Typhoeus
Also the titanomachy shook the cosmos:
"Lord Zeus! ...

I appreciate the quote, but you did not list to source for me to actually check where this is from.

Hesiod, Theogony 681 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :
"[The war of the gods and Titanes shook the whole cosmos :] These [the gods and Hekatonkheires], then, stood against the Titanes in grim strife, holding huge rocks in their strong hands

I have that translation, and I think you might be quoting a different line or text. What I have is

"wide Heaven was shaken and groaned, and high Olympus reeled from its foundation under the charge of the undying gods..."

This is what the Lattimore translation says:

"and the earth crashed aloud, and the wide sky resounded as it was shaken, and tall Olympos rocked on its bases in the fan of the wind of the immortals,
this is all just general Zeus, Orphic Zeus on the other hand can be summarized in one small paragraph
Zeus is the fiery upper air, Zeus is the earth, Zeus is the heaven;
Zeus is all things, and whatever transcends them.
I dont think i need to tell you the uniqueness of this concept, that not only is he creator of creation (like most creators of the universe), but he is everything and everyone in creation and transcends everything thus transcending itself (Zeus is not male here)
Aeschylus, Fragment 70 (Heliades [Daughters of Helios])

Not sure about it being "unique," other than that it differs pretty significantly from the typical portrayals of Zeus, to the point where I think it is fairly pointless to mention it unless it is specifically brought up. It is essentially a completely different divinity that happens to use the same name. Nobody nowadays thinks of "mythological Zeus" as being anything remotely like that, nor was he portrayed as such in the most important literatures on the subject (Homer, Hesiod, Ovid, Apollodorus off the top of my head).

@ShootingNova: Like I posted above, it seems to me the Homeric version was viewed as finite, with the vault of heaven about the same width as the earth.

While I agree with Lewis' basic idea that nonsense remains nonsense regardless of how you phrase it, what he seems to miss (as do a lot of people, particularly when they are dealing with infinity from a theological viewpoint instead of a mathematical one) is that the concept of omnipotence itself could inherently be nonsense to begin with.

The thing with the omnipotence paradox is if you boil away the stones and immovable objects and such, at its core it is basically asking "what is infinity minus infinity?" The truth is it is undefined, and always has been, and so far no mathematician has found a way around it. If you come across "inf - inf" somewhere in a math or physics problem, the answer isn't that you've discovered some transcendental equation that defies human understanding, the answer is you screwed up somewhere along the way and need to go back and fix it (including re-examining your initial conditions or premises).

#45 Posted by kingkronos (2501 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyper_God:

Can you show me the scan where Galactus "nearly" destroys the multiverse?

And I'm not sure why you are talking about levels of infinity, since Galactus isn't infinite to begin with. Besides, you arguing with the omnipotent Paradox, I could easily argue that levels of infinity are total BS and name some paradoxes too. To say that something is beyond infinity requires the knowledge of infinity, which we don't have.

#46 Posted by Ratatat (697 posts) - - Show Bio

zeus

#47 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos said:

@Hyper_God:

Can you show me the scan where Galactus "nearly" destroys the multiverse?

And I'm not sure why you are talking about levels of infinity, since Galactus isn't infinite to begin with. Besides, you arguing with the omnipotent Paradox, I could easily argue that levels of infinity are total BS and name some paradoxes too. To say that something is beyond infinity requires the knowledge of infinity, which we don't have.

Don't take this the wrong way , but I am not going to spoon feed you facts . If you haven't read the issues in question then you shouldn't take such an ardent position on an issue like this . Read The Mighty Thor Annual 01 on your own and discover the truth of my words .

It doesn't matter whether you dismiss Cantor's theory as BS because during its inception many other far more qualified people than you made a similar folly . Yet today it is accepted by majority of the mathematical academia and taught in the relevant university level math courses . The human species is far more knowledgeable than you give it credit for .

#48 Posted by Killemall (18458 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingkronos: I think he is talking about his instance.

More specifically the third last scan , hope this helps.

#49 Posted by asIsuspected (543 posts) - - Show Bio

mythological Zeus wins!!! Comic book on the other hand looses..... In comics it's clearly shown that Galactus is above any Skyfather.

#50 Posted by whydama (1093 posts) - - Show Bio

@Freefa11 said:

@justleader said:

@Hyper_God:

That's your interpretations, now let's look at some facts:

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 38. 90 ff :

While he directed his eye to the upper air and the flood of stars, the diverse races of earth and the restless back of the sea, gazing round and round on the foundations of the infinite universe, the shining horses rolled along under the yoke over their usual course through the Zodiakos

Ovid, Metamorphoses 2. 156 ff :

"The four swift horses of Sol [Helios the Sun] . . . kick at the gates, neighing and snorting fire, and Tethys then, her grandson’s fate undreamt, draws back the bars and makes the horses free of all the boundless heavens. Forth they go, tearing away, and cleave with beating hooves the clouds before them, and on wings outride the winds that westwards from the morning blow [and the sun rises up above the horizon]."

I appreciate you actually citing primary sources; it is genuinely helpful. However, you are making two big mistakes. One is taking poetry as literal truth, the other is relying heavily on the semantics of one translation. Both are problematic, not only from a logic point of view, but just in terms of actually gaining the meaning of what the author intended. For example, the translation I have on hand of Ovid (by Humphries) reads thus;

"Meanwhile the horses, Pyrois, Eous, Aethon, and Phlegon, filled the air with neighing, snorting, and pawing at their bars. And Tethys, ignorant of her grandson's fate, let fall the barriers: they had their chance at Heaven, the horses, now, and took it, and their hoofs cut through the clouds before them, and their wings bore them aloft, and they overtook the winds that rose from the same east."

There are some pretty clear differences in structure and wording, even though both passages end up amounting to pretty much the same thing. But here, notably, Humphries simply mentions "Heaven," not "boundless heavens." I do not have the original Latin to check, and don't read latin anyway, so I have no way of making an argument for which could be technically more accurate, I'm just saying it is far from a hard proof.

And getting back to taking poetry at face value: obviously, not everything is meant to be questioned, but it is a tricky situation and is very similar to taking hyperbole at face value. I have a scan in which Galactus claims he can shake the universe with "the mearest whisper," but that doesn't mean I expect it to actually be a true gauge of his power.

@Freefa11:
Phusis (equated to Phanes who is the creator) recreates the universe after the battle between Zeus and Typhoeus
Also the titanomachy shook the cosmos:
"Lord Zeus! ...

I appreciate the quote, but you did not list to source for me to actually check where this is from.

Hesiod, Theogony 681 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :
"[The war of the gods and Titanes shook the whole cosmos :] These [the gods and Hekatonkheires], then, stood against the Titanes in grim strife, holding huge rocks in their strong hands

I have that translation, and I think you might be quoting a different line or text. What I have is

"wide Heaven was shaken and groaned, and high Olympus reeled from its foundation under the charge of the undying gods..."

This is what the Lattimore translation says:

"and the earth crashed aloud, and the wide sky resounded as it was shaken, and tall Olympos rocked on its bases in the fan of the wind of the immortals,
this is all just general Zeus, Orphic Zeus on the other hand can be summarized in one small paragraph
Zeus is the fiery upper air, Zeus is the earth, Zeus is the heaven;
Zeus is all things, and whatever transcends them.
I dont think i need to tell you the uniqueness of this concept, that not only is he creator of creation (like most creators of the universe), but he is everything and everyone in creation and transcends everything thus transcending itself (Zeus is not male here)
Aeschylus, Fragment 70 (Heliades [Daughters of Helios])

Not sure about it being "unique," other than that it differs pretty significantly from the typical portrayals of Zeus, to the point where I think it is fairly pointless to mention it unless it is specifically brought up. It is essentially a completely different divinity that happens to use the same name. Nobody nowadays thinks of "mythological Zeus" as being anything remotely like that, nor was he portrayed as such in the most important literatures on the subject (Homer, Hesiod, Ovid, Apollodorus off the top of my head).

@ShootingNova: Like I posted above, it seems to me the Homeric version was viewed as finite, with the vault of heaven about the same width as the earth.

While I agree with Lewis' basic idea that nonsense remains nonsense regardless of how you phrase it, what he seems to miss (as do a lot of people, particularly when they are dealing with infinity from a theological viewpoint instead of a mathematical one) is that the concept of omnipotence itself could inherently be nonsense to begin with.

The thing with the omnipotence paradox is if you boil away the stones and immovable objects and such, at its core it is basically asking "what is infinity minus infinity?" The truth is it is undefined, and always has been, and so far no mathematician has found a way around it. If you come across "inf - inf" somewhere in a math or physics problem, the answer isn't that you've discovered some transcendental equation that defies human understanding, the answer is you screwed up somewhere along the way and need to go back and fix it (including re-examining your initial conditions or premises).

I dont think so. That was essentially the Hilbert Hotel. The number of odd numbers is half the number of natural numbers