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#1 Posted by rondoudou (182 posts) - - Show Bio

so who would win if galactus at his most powerful vs the most powerful celestial? fight to the death, no morals no planning time, the fight takes place at TGI Friday's

#2 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2976 posts) - - Show Bio

@rondoudou: So Galactus full power (I'm going to say he is = to eternity) vs. Scathan a Celestial at near LT levels. Or Timat or could be at TOAA levels (He probably is not though) Either case he loses.

#3 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

Tiamut ascension had to do with him gaining individuality not being equal to Fulcrum in terms of power, despite the ambiguous words.

Galactus at his most powerful, from last planet standing, because so powerful that Living Tribunal together with a whole bunch of abstracts were required to beat Galactus.

Scanthan with a thumbs down beat a guy (Protege) whom Living Tribunal knew couldnt beat on his own power (why else would be amp himself with the powers of ancient amulet).

Both the feats look hard to accept, i suppose we can agree its a good match.

#4 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

this might be close if we're using last planet standing galactus vs scathan, i think i'll go with scathan.

#5 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer: are we sure that Scathan is near Lt in terms of poer? becasue its totally conceivable that LT just trusts Scathan is godd at judging stuff

I've never really seen any feats for Tiamut

@killemall: Scathan beat the guy with a plot devise, and we're not really sure that protege was ever as powerful as LT(LT didn't seem very worried and they never actually fought)

what's "Last Planet Standing"?

#6 Posted by dondave (35965 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Scathan beat the guy with a plot devise, and we're not really sure that protege was ever as powerful as LT(LT didn't seem very worried and they never actually fought)

what's "Last Planet Standing"?

What plot device?

Do you mean Celestial Muzzle?

BTW Protege being just as powerful as Living Tribunal comes from three things:

1. Protege himself claiming to have copied his power , which we can admit is very questionable.

2. Living Tribunal on panel says he was tapping into the power of ancient one's amulet to face Protege, if LT knew he could beat Protege on his own, why would he tap into an external source of power?

3. Living Tribunal 2006 bio actually backs Protege's statement.

As per Last Planet Standing, its an alternate reality 5 issue story arc that takes place in Reality 982 , where Galactus starts eating everything he can get his hands on, making him extremely powerful to a point in order to beat him Living Tribunal combines him powers with a bunch of Abstracts/ cosmic cube beings.

#8 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

"last Planet Standing" sounds like a pretty cool storyline, but I'm not sure if MC2 is canon

could we get some scans of msome of that stuff (for intertanement if nothing else)

1. fair enough

2. I don't remember LT saying that he was tapping into anyone's power

3. bios have referred to The Incredible Hulk as "the most powerful being to ever walk the Earth"

#9 Posted by rondoudou (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: where was that issue from where the living tribunal needed many aspects to help him defeat galactus at full strength?

#10 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

so, I'm gonna say the strongets Celestial is TOAA, and he doesn't really have any feats (other than shooting tossing planets and losing to Thanos w/IG)

Still, I think he'd be on par with any abstract

#11 Posted by TifaLockhart (14044 posts) - - Show Bio

Galactus would get my vote against a lesser Celestial or possibly split with an average one, but I say the strongest defeats him.

#12 Posted by TwoGunGunnar (90 posts) - - Show Bio

Galactus.

Unless the Celestial in question has the Ultimate Nullifier.

Writers seem to have forgotten the whole point of Galactus: he can't be "beaten" in any normal sense. That's the whole gimmick about the character and what makes Galactus neat...he can't be outfought, but fortunately for Earth he's not evil per se, just hungry.

The only thing that can stop him is the Ultimate Nullifier.

No Nullifier, no stopping Galactus.

#13 Edited by TifaLockhart (14044 posts) - - Show Bio

If writers forget it, then does that mean continuity is wrong?

#14 Edited by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

"last Planet Standing" sounds like a pretty cool storyline, but I'm not sure if MC2 is canon

Its definitely not canon for 616, after all nothing in the issue takes place in 616 reality. It is however used to show the most powerful version of Galactus, from the marvel multiverse, shown on panel.

could we get some scans of msome of that stuff (for intertanement if nothing else)

Too lazy to look for the issue LOL, but here are few scans i found on KMC

1. fair enough

Cool..

2. I don't remember LT saying that he was tapping into anyone's power

It was pretty clearly there on panel not sure how you missed it.

Firstly Living Tribunal says he might need to draw the power from the ancient amulet

Then later here Living Tribunal confirms he was indeed tapping into the power of the amulet.

3. bios have referred to The Incredible Hulk as "the most powerful being to ever walk the Earth"

Thats a character hyperbole which is different from Marvel giving us a summary of an actual event that took place. Besides hyperboles about Hulk will normally appear in Hulk's own bio and no where else, the summary i am referring to appeared in Living Tribunal's 2006 bio (Protege doesnt have a marvel handbook page anyways)

As you can see it doesnt say anything like Protege has the greatest power ever (that was stated by Living Tribunal a long time ago in the series before Protege even became a threat) but rather Protege had the power to copy other people's ability and he copied Living Tribunals ability.

@killemall: where was that issue from where the living tribunal needed many aspects to help him defeat galactus at full strength?

Thats the same issue i was talking about. Its called Last Planet Standing.

#15 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

last planet standing sounds like a pretty interesting arc

the Living Tribunal needing a Wizard's artifact to keep going makes the GotG Protege saga make considerably lesss sense

I'm still not sure how accurate guides are as far as amounts of power are concerned

anyways, Scathan was using the eternal hourglass (or whatever its called) to defeat Protege

#16 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

last planet standing sounds like a pretty interesting arc

Its not a bad read... it just doesn't sit well with all other Galactus and Living Tribunal appearance just like Protege saga doesn't sit well with the rest of the chronology.

the Living Tribunal needing a Wizard's artifact to keep going makes the GotG Protege saga make considerably lesss sense

I am not going to say its not weird but there is a possible explanation. The Ancient One's amulate has access to extra-dimensional power, something LT is not normally shown to have access too. While i have no reason to believe the amulate power would be of a scale even remotely close to LT, tapping into that power should give him a boost, however small the boost might be.

I'm still not sure how accurate guides are as far as amounts of power are concerned

I dont think handbook are a good gauge of power or stats, but thats not what i am using. Handbook often give you a summary of a story arc, a summary written the way marvel interprets a particular even and marvel for one interpret Protege claiming he has copied the power of Living Tribunal as genuine despite they having never fought.

anyways, Scathan was using the eternal hourglass (or whatever its called) to defeat Protege

It is Eternal Hourglass, but Scanthan did not use the eternal hourglass against Protege. Scanthan disapproved Protege's action, then we saw Protege covered in celestial muzzle (a posh word for a blanket :p ), then upon LT's request Scanthan removes the muzzle and physically restrains Protege.

It was Living Tribunal who takes out the eternal hourglass, traps protege in it, then the hourglass in him, thereby absorbing Protege in him.

#17 Edited by TwoGunGunnar (90 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia:

If writers forget it, then does that mean continuity is wrong?

I don't know if I'd say it like that, but we all know that sometimes writers make decisions that conflict with the nature/purpose/original concept of the character.

For example: Spider-Man vs Firelord. In case you haven't seen that one, there was a Marvel comic where Spider-Man physically beat Firelord. You can't say "continuity is wrong" because by the definition of "continuity" whatever happens in a comic is what happens in a comic. That's continuity. At the same time, does that mean it wasn't a stupid story and completely contradictory to the two characters? No. It was dumb.

Another example is a crossover where Batman physically beat the Hulk by boxing his ears (I think) and kicking him in the solar plexus. Riiiiiiiight.........

So when I see a story where Galactus is defeated by anything other than The Ultimate Nullifer, I think, "Wow, these writers screwed up."

#18 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

1. I'll be sure to check itout

2. extradimensional? isn't LT legit mulitversal? anyways, as I recall, Cytorrak beat people liek the Vishanti in his real, and one Infinity Gem was able to Destroy the Crimson Cosmos, and LT easily just STOPPED the IG from working

3. its still someone else's interpretationof the events

4. LT used the hourglass? anyways, Scanthan still needed an artifact to stop Protege

#19 Edited by TifaLockhart (14044 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman gassed the Hulk. The kick merely startled him into breathing.

#20 Edited by TwoGunGunnar (90 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

Batman gassed the Hulk. The kick merely startled him into breathing.

I stand corrected on that point.

Regardless, we're still left with a story where Batman beat the Hulk. The Hulk. With a gas-grenade. It was a lame story. I suppose it's conceivable that a good story could be written where, at the end Batman is standing and the Hulk is not, but it's not going to involve Batman physically fighting the Hulk and throwing batgadgets at him because that is dumb. It's not true to either one of the characters.

An acceptable (if not good) story would involve Batman running the hell away from the Hulk...maybe throwing gadgetry to piss him off, and luring Hulk into some kind of Anti-Gamma Polarity Reversing Bombardmenator Ray, Hulk turning into Banner, and thus Batman wins the story.

"Winning the story" is important, because it's different than winning a fight. There's no way Batman could win a fight against the Hulk, but I suppose he could win the story.

Which brings us back to Galactus. If we're going to be true to the concept of the character, it's impossible to win a fight against Galactus, but you can win the story. By getting the Ultimate Nullifier.

So the question is, "Could the most powerful celestial get the Ultimate Nullifier"? Probably not. Galactus would know if a Celestial was anywhere near his Nullifier collection, especially if it was near his Ultimate Nullifier.

If I wanted to have the Celestial win the story vs. Galactus, I'd have the Celestial conscript the Eternals to go on an adventuresome and dangerous quest to get the U.N. That'd be more fun to read. But then it would be "The Eternals vs. All The Crazy Stuff In Galactus' Solar System Sized Space Base"....which kind of sounds cool now that I think about it.

#21 Edited by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

1. I'll be sure to check itout

2. extradimensional? isn't LT legit mulitversal? anyways, as I recall, Cytorrak beat people liek the Vishanti in his real, and one Infinity Gem was able to Destroy the Crimson Cosmos, and LT easily just STOPPED the IG from working

3. its still someone else's interpretationof the events

4. LT used the hourglass? anyways, Scanthan still needed an artifact to stop Protege

1. Sure.

2. I never said the amulet was more powerful than LT, in fact i have said even in the post, clear as day that its not true. However, the amulet is extradimensional in nature and hence from a power source different to that of Living Tribunal even if its weaker.

Cyttorak has never beaten Vishanti either, it wasnt one infinity gem , and LT needed Warlock permission to stop IG from working.

3. Its not "someone" else's interpretation, its marvel official interpretation. Because Official bios are written under marvel writers and verified by the editors.

4. Yes it was LT who used the hourglass to absorb Protege in him, Scanthan without any sort of power first put the celestial muzzle on him , then despite Protege having copied power from Mephista, Beyonder, Hawkgod, GOTG, Eternity and Living Tribunal physically restrained him.

#22 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

Galactus at his most powerful, from last planet standing, because so powerful that Living Tribunal together with a whole bunch of abstracts were required to beat Galactus.

Non-canon , plus it was never stated that all the Abstracts were needed to stop Galactus . It's like saying that since America , Japan , Taiwan do a preemptive strike against North Korea then that means all 3 of these nations are required to beat North Korea .

Which brings us back to Galactus. If we're going to be true to the concept of the character, it's impossible to win a fight against Galactus, but you can win the story. By getting the Ultimate Nullifier.

That is pretty much the most retarded thing I've ever read on these forums , and I've read quite a few stupidity-reeking things on here . Not to mention that your other analogies using Spider-Man/Firelord and Hulk/Batman are as dumbfoundingly inapplicable in this scenario , especially when one sees that Galactus and Celestials are peers .

#23 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

Non-canon , plus it was never stated that all the Abstracts were needed to stop Galactus . It's like saying that since America , Japan , Taiwan do a preemptive strike against North Korea then that means all 3 of these nations are required to beat North Korea .

Of course its non-canon, but its generally used to show the most powerful version of Galactus in the multiverse shown on panel.

Secondly given the dialogue it stands to reason they needed the help together because as it reads \

"We must gather as one, combine all our power into a destructive force that would erase the planet slayer from all existence"

#24 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god said:

Non-canon , plus it was never stated that all the Abstracts were needed to stop Galactus . It's like saying that since America , Japan , Taiwan do a preemptive strike against North Korea then that means all 3 of these nations are required to beat North Korea .

Of course its non-canon, but its generally used to show the most powerful version of Galactus in the multiverse shown on panel.

Secondly given the dialogue it stands to reason they needed the help together because as it reads \

"We must gather as one, combine all our power into a destructive force that would erase the planet slayer from all existence"

Read the OP again . It's asking for Galactus at his most powerful , not the most powerful version of Galactus . Plus there's no proof that MC2 Galactus was the most powerful version of the character anyways , apart from the flawed reasoning you used to show that he is .

That statement doesn't prove anything . What one must do isn't indicative of what one needs to do . For all we know the Abstracts intended to overdo their assault in order to be absolutely thorough about their mission .

#25 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio


Read the OP again . It's asking for Galactus at his most powerful , not the most powerful version of Galactus

Apologies, misread the OP.

I suppose we see things differently, in a gathering the elders says how they couldnt defeat the galactus on their own, then they alongside Living Tribunal attack Galactus together saying they "must" combine their power.

Certainly points that they did needed to combine the power.

If you believe otherwise, pehaps you could show us a proof that no they just combined the power of whatever they felt like, after all LT is not one to combine powers with other unless they have to.

Could you site a scans that say well i do could taken him out alone but since we were altogether we did and the use of the work "must" was just there for LOLz?

#26 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: you and I remember this very differently, I'm gonna have to request scans

#27 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

@hyper_god said:

Read the OP again . It's asking for Galactus at his most powerful , not the most powerful version of Galactus

Apologies, misread the OP.

I suppose we see things differently, in a gathering the elders says how they couldnt defeat the galactus on their own, then they alongside Living Tribunal attack Galactus together saying they "must" combine their power.

Certainly points that they did needed to combine the power.

If you believe otherwise, pehaps you could show us a proof that no they just combined the power of whatever they felt like, after all LT is not one to combine powers with other unless they have to.

Could you site a scans that say well i do could taken him out alone but since we were altogether we did and the use of the work "must" was just there for LOLz?

We don't know the context of their previous encounter . The Collector was the one who made that statement and in that same instance he also claimed that "another attempt will simply jeopardize the Earth" .

Galactus was almost taken by Death in the very same series . He was saved by Silver Surfer(amped by Dominas' power) . If you think that Death and an amped Silver Surfer are as or more powerful than an assemblage consisting of the Living Tribunal , then that's on you , not me .

I didn't say they just combined their power in whatever way they felt like . Don't twist my words . Not to mention that I don't have to prove a negative anyways .

The blast never hit Galactus . It would've apparently destroyed the Milky Way had it connected , thus if it actually hit Galactus it could have been overkill .

Overkill . The word that I think isn't occurring to you in context of the way that scene was depicted .

#28 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: you and I remember this very differently, I'm gonna have to request scans

Little unsure to which instance you are referring to, because there are about 4 different things from different comics that we disagree on, once you tell me which particular instance you are looking for then i can post scans.


We don't know the context of their previous encounter . The Collector was the one who made that statement and in that same instance he also claimed that "another attempt will simply jeopardize the Earth" .

I know it was the collector who said so that is why i said an elder said so, not too sure i understand what the second part is referring to, perhaps more details on what you are trying to infer might help.

Galactus was almost taken by Death in the very same series .

That doesnt contradict anything though, because we have seen another instance similar to this when Korvac from Reality 82432 who after having absorbed power of most of the abstract was beyond the judgement of Living Tribunal, whom tribunal tried to destroy first my causing earth supernova but seeing how he prevent the destruction of earth against LT judgement , LT sealed the reality from the multiverse.

The same Korvac after the said feat was claimed by Mistress Death, whom she made use UN on himself and get nullified.

When did this happen, as in what part, before the attack, after the attack would add more detail. Cant remember the whole detail of the series , i will re-read the story tomorrow, pretty late at the moment but that likely isnt going to affect this incident.

Death ability to claim people Beyond LT power has been precedented before, Silver Surfer incident i will have to look through the think to know when, but i am still unsure if that would contradict anything.

I didn't say they just combined their power in whatever way they felt like . Don't twist my words . Not to mention that I don't have to prove a negative anyways .

Firstly you are not being asked to simply prove a negative, but to substantiate something in regards to your belief when on panel evidence suggest otherwise, i.e. the use of the word "we must combine our power".

Because that means we have to combine our power, not that lets just combine our power despite the fact that individual power would suffice. Thats what i am asking for, reason to suggest an unpanel statement, backed on on panel depiction, of them attacking together.

Dont twist it around saying its a negative.. its a statement against what is stated right there on panel.

Secondly i did not twist your word, i was just lazy trying the phase.

Our disagreement is: whether they needed to combine their power to destroy Galactus, the use of the word "must" and the fact that they did combine the power suggest yes they needed it. What i am asking is what suggest they did not need it, and the combination of power were for other reason, whatever they might have been.

The blast never hit Galactus . It would've apparently destroyed the Milky Way had it connected , thus if it actually hit Galactus it could have been overkill .

Galactus is shown right in the middle of the blast radius surrounded by an energy aura, i am assuming its because of the blast (if not prehaps i'll pick if up when i read it by tomorrow, else you are welcome to put in scans).

Secondly you keep saying it would have been overkill or it wasnt need, i am asking a evidence for it.

Given the statements in those 2 scans thats not what a normal person would infer, so what is your basis for interpreting it in a way, different from what is evident on panel, coz you gotta have some.

Overkill . The word that I think isn't occurring to you in context of the way that scene was depicted .

It doesnt look like overkill, it doesnt read like overkill, so why should one interpret the scene as overkill.

If the scene is out of context, i would welcome you to add context, perhaps then i would change my assessment. At the moment you are pretty much just saying thats not so, it would have been overkill, i dont have to prove negative, and interpreting the scan completely different from what is appearing clearly and unambigious on panel, so you gotta add in more scans or details supporting your claim.

#29 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

We don't know the context of their previous encounter . The Collector was the one who made that statement and in that same instance he also claimed that "another attempt will simply jeopardize the Earth" .

I know it was the collector who said so that is why i said an elder said so, not too sure i understand what the second part is referring to, perhaps more details on what you are trying to infer might help.

I am saying that we don't know the context of the previous encounter in which the Abstracts supposedly failed to destroy Galactus . Because the Collector mentions in that very statement that attacking him now would jeopardize the Earth , who knows whether they faced a similar constraint in their previous confrontation with Galactus ?

@killemall said:

Galactus was almost taken by Death in the very same series .

That doesnt contradict anything though, because we have seen another instance similar to this when Korvac from Reality 82432 who after having absorbed power of most of the abstract was beyond the judgement of Living Tribunal, whom tribunal tried to destroy first my causing earth supernova but seeing how he prevent the destruction of earth against LT judgement , LT sealed the reality from the multiverse.

The same Korvac after the said feat was claimed by Mistress Death, whom she made use UN on himself and get nullified.

Yes , and would you use that as an example of the alternate reality Korvac being superior to the Living Tribunal ? In fact , take a pause and ask yourself that just because the LT's ultimate judgement in that issue was making a star go nova , does in anyway imply that he'd be unable to beat Korvac in a forum fight ?

Same logic here as well , where with the combined power of other Abstracts , all that the LT could do in that instance was destroy the Milky Way at best . Poor argument to insinuate that the alternate Korvac or MC2 Galactus are Living Tribunal level entities .

@killemall said:

When did this happen, as in what part, before the attack, after the attack would add more detail. Cant remember the whole detail of the series , i will re-read the story tomorrow, pretty late at the moment but that likely isnt going to affect this incident.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/63010/1342476-sghy5.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/63010/1342478-sg2qt3.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/63010/1342477-lastplanetstanding05pag.jpg

@killemall said:

Death ability to claim people Beyond LT power has been precedented before, Silver Surfer incident i will have to look through the think to know when, but i am still unsure if that would contradict anything.

Claim people beyond the Living Tribunal's power ? Could you kindly point out which people ? Apart from Korvac and Galactus(who are suspect to begin with) ?

@killemall said:

Firstly you are not being asked to simply prove a negative, but to substantiate something in regards to your belief when on panel evidence suggest otherwise, i.e. the use of the word "we must combine our power".

Because that means we have to combine our power, not that lets just combine our power despite the fact that individual power would suffice. Thats what i am asking for, reason to suggest an unpanel statement, backed on on panel depiction, of them attacking together.

Dont twist it around saying its a negative.. its a statement against what is stated right there on panel.

Secondly i did not twist your word, i was just lazy trying the phase.

Our disagreement is: whether they needed to combine their power to destroy Galactus, the use of the word "must" and the fact that they did combine the power suggest yes they needed it. What i am asking is what suggest they did not need it, and the combination of power were for other reason, whatever they might have been.

Except that is pretty much what I have to do , when I have already given explanations why this evidence that supposedly tells us what you're insinuating is insufficient/invalid in this case . I won't repeat myself in this regard .

What must be done cannot be equated with what's needed to be done . It's as simple as that . Anything otherwise is borders on a poor/inane grasp of the English language .

I am not twisting anything here . Stop projecting .

The fact that blowing up the Milky Way Galaxy would be more than enough to destroy him ?

@killemall said:

Galactus is shown right in the middle of the blast radius surrounded by an energy aura, i am assuming its because of the blast (if not prehaps i'll pick if up when i read it by tomorrow, else you are welcome to put in scans).

Secondly you keep saying it would have been overkill or it wasnt need, i am asking a evidence for it.

Given the statements in those 2 scans thats not what a normal person would infer, so what is your basis for interpreting it in a way, different from what is evident on panel, coz you gotta have some.

We saw his shadow at the center of the blast . Not the same thing as him tanking it point blank , especially in light of the fact that Reed Richards redirected that blast back on the Abstracts themselves , thereby saving Galactus from certain doom .

I already explained it in my previous responses . As I said before , I am not going to repeat myself in this regard .

That's what a simpleton would infer . My interpretation is spot-on .

@killemall said:

It doesnt look like overkill, it doesnt read like overkill, so why should one interpret the scene as overkill.

If the scene is out of context, i would welcome you to add context, perhaps then i would change my assessment. At the moment you are pretty much just saying thats not so, it would have been overkill, i dont have to prove negative, and interpreting the scan completely different from what is appearing clearly and unambigious on panel, so you gotta add in more scans or details supporting your claim.

Because it very likely was overkill ? Galactus never tanked the blast in it's entirety , and the way Reed and the Abstracts were going , it would have caused far greater amounts of collateral damage apart from killing Galactus himself . Hence overkill .

#30 Edited by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

I am saying that we don't know the context of the previous encounter in which the Abstracts supposedly failed to destroy Galactus . Because the Collector mentions in that very statement that attacking him now would jeopardize the Earth , who knows whether they faced a similar constraint in their previous confrontation with Galactus ?

Fair enough i did not disagree with this, and this was likely before Galactus becoming what he was after all wasnt the whole purpose of the story for Galactus to evolve beyond what he is?

Yes , and would you use that as an example of the alternate reality Korvac being superior to the Living Tribunal ? In fact , take a pause and ask yourself that just because the LT's ultimate judgement in that issue was making a star go nova , does in anyway imply that he'd be unable to beat Korvac in a forum fight ?

Same logic here as well , where with the combined power of other Abstracts , all that the LT could do in that instance was destroy the Milky Way at best . Poor argument to insinuate that the alternate Korvac or MC2 Galactus are Living Tribunal level entities .

I never said Korvac was more powerful than Living Tribunal but given what the issue showed Korvac was beyond Living Tribunal's direct influence, i.e. Living Tribunal couldnt kill or beat Korvac without dangering the multiverse, much like IG vs Living Tribunal or Starbrand vs Living Tribunal.

Point was Living Tribunal , for one reason or another, has shown inability to defeat being. I myself in the very post said the whole Galactus vs Abstracts does not sit well with the chronology, same with Scanthan to be honest as in the same issue Living Tribunal himself proclaims (there is only one superior to me) while Scanthan right there is doing something Living Tribunal on his power couldnt.

@killemall said:

When did this happen, as in what part, before the attack, after the attack would add more detail. Cant remember the whole detail of the series , i will re-read the story tomorrow, pretty late at the moment but that likely isnt going to affect this incident.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/63010/1342476-sghy5.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/63010/1342478-sg2qt3.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/6/63010/1342477-lastplanetstanding05pag.jpg


Pretty sure you misunderstood my question, i did not question the existence of the incident, i know you dont say stuffs that did not happen, i know you better than that mate.

I asked WHEN did this happen, before the fight, after the fight, at what point coz that changes a lot.

Seems like it happened after the said blast we might get a better explanation after i read the issue, coz a easier explanation would be Galactus was weakened with the said blast (assumption from my part: havent re-read the issue yet, still downloading :p )

We saw his shadow at the center of the blast . Not the same thing as him tanking it point blank , especially in light of the fact that Reed Richards redirected that blast back on the Abstracts themselves , thereby saving Galactus from certain doom .

I already explained it in my previous responses . As I said before , I am not going to repeat myself in this regard .

That's what a simpleton would infer . My interpretation is spot-on .

Not sure how that changes anything, we do see Galactus, or his image in the middle of the blast, followed by on panel statement that they "must" combine the blast to defeat Galactus.

Am i arguing the blast would not have killed Galactus, no?

Thats what was said on panel.

What i am arguing is given what was said on panel there is nothing to suggest they did not require to combine the blast.

Like you i have put my argument forward too, i dont see why there is a need for stuffs like "what a simpleton would infer", lets cut with the insult shall we.

Because it very likely was overkill ? Galactus never tanked the blast in it's entirety , and the way Reed and the Abstracts were going , it would have caused far greater amounts of collateral damage apart from killing Galactus himself . Hence overkill .

Given what was said and shown in the panel i dont see why it would have been.

Ok he did not tank the entirety of the blast (i did not know that but thats besides the point) but the point was it was said "we must" and thats how one would interpret.

And you are saying a galaxy wide destruction is a far greater collateral damange when we know things like that has been busted so often in a fight against Set and Odin or Galactus and Tyrant.

Side effect in a huge fight or attack is pretty much common in a huge fight, i dont think that would be a basis to suggest that is overkill, when nothing in the panel says so.

What panel says is : we "must" combine the blast to destroy Galactus

What you are saying is: combined blast is overkill.

I am more inclined to go with whats on the panel, that had they not combined the blast the result would NOT have been the same and hence the use of the word "must"

Its not a simpleton interpretation, its a genuine, literal interpretation of what has been said on panel.

#31 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

I'm not really on a computer right now that's gonna let me post any scasn (sorry) but scans of Scanthan's battle with Protege would eb cool

#32 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

I'm not really on a computer right now that's gonna let me post any scasn (sorry) but scans of Scanthan's battle with Protege would eb cool

I think you misunderstood i did not ask you post any scans, i said i can post whatever scan you are asking for, i just dont know which scans you asked coz there were like 4 things there that we disagreed or interpreted differently.

So Scanthan vs Protege , no problem, here you go :)

Any other instances?

#33 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

I'm not sure how much Scanthan holding down the boy should count: considering taht the Eternal Horglass seemed to be freaking him out, and he was no longer in the three-headed One-Above-All mode

I think I also want scans for:

) that Infinity Gem destroying the Crimson Cosmos

)LT stopping the IG

) Cytorrak's high-end feats

#34 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

I'm not sure how much Scanthan holding down the boy should count: considering taht the Eternal Horglass seemed to be freaking him out, and he was no longer in the three-headed One-Above-All mode

There is no mention of Boy being depowered though, and if it was it has to be attributed to Scanthan judging against him, after all first Scanthan Judges against him then the next scan you see the boy without 3 heads, so if thats shows he was depowered it was all Scanthan.

) that Infinity Gem destroying the Crimson Cosmos

It wasnt even the full power of the Infinity Gauntlet, but a fraction of its true power that was unleashed as a Nemesis wave destroyed Crimson Cosmos during Avengers and Ultraforce story arc:

)LT stopping the IG

That was the biggest Clash of the titants, but sadly they dont fight.

So LT rules against Warlock , Warlock refuses to give up his power, LT sit there summaries and concluded that he does indeed have the power to take the gauntlet away from him, but they never fight, it was however said that the fight would lay waste to reality. So Warlock agrees to give up the power, the IG still works after Warlock agreeing but only stops working after he has separated individual gems from the IG.

) Cytorrak's high-end feats

Not a big fan of Cyttorak and haven't seen any impressive feat, at least as long 7am was here he would blow him out of proportion, he doesn't come often after i repeatedly caught him mis-representing scans and corrected him on 4 thread , and interestingly few other started using the same instances and asking him too many question. Out of answer he convinently disappeared.

@hyper_god: Just finished reading though Last Planet Standing and my scans are not out of context yours are.

Firstly the cosmic power houses attacking Galactus (you said Galactus was never hit by the blast, issue says otherwise)

Firstly the assemblage asks Galactus to stop, he refuses

Then the cosmic powerhouse actually attack Galactus, Galactus is smack in the middle and we clearly see them attacking him

Their combine attack is actually forming a wormhole above Galactus ship and giving Reed extremely power reading, but Reed realizes while the blast could kill Galactus, earth would be destroyed in process. So he uses the power of the particle accelerator (which was supposed to create a chain reaction inside abstract effectively hitting them with their own power) preventing the abstracts from finishing off Galactus.

So after being hit by blast the celestial assemblage is dispersed and not seen again in the story

Then Galactus comes to Earth, his plan is revealed and it was to use the power from various omnipotent beings he captured (kosmos and such) into the power of the new born star which is magical in nature, and use it to start the new big bang

Now comes the plot, using Reed's new Gizmo heroes combining their power manage to destroy Galactus force-field

Then Spidergirl inside Galactus's ship conveniently manages to find a switch to reverse the flow of the power

This reverses the flow of the energy, so the energy instead of going to the star to cause the new big bang is directed towards Galactus, which overloads him and Galactus is about to die because of the energy overload, thats when mistress Death appears

So lady death coming to claim Galactus doesnt contradict any of his power showing, she came in because Galactus was going to die because of power overload from the mystical star

Then Surfer comes in to his aid and Galactus about to die, help him, and the whole power essential fiasco

So in short:

1. Galactus did tank the blast from the combined cosmic assemblage as we see it on panel, the attack however would have eventually killed him and cause a huge collateral damage (the same way Galactus dying towards the end of the issue after being overloaded with the power of the star would have destroyed milky way). It was thanks to Reed's particle canon that saved him but that does nothing to suggest the blast was either over-kill or a blast of smaller magnitude would have killed him and hence:

a. The fact the cosmic assemblage had to combine their attack

b. Despite having combined the attack Galactus didnt outright die

c. No one actually defeated Galactus in the series apart from plot nearly killing him

All suggests that the use of the word "must" was correct in the issue, with no contradiction.

2. Death nearly claiming him also doesnt contradict anything, which i dont agree would have contradicted earlier anyways, because it was not Death's power that threatened Galactus but the fact that he was overloaded because of his own plan.

3. Neither does Surfer having to help Galactus says anything against his feat.

The feat looks as clear as day, not sure what your disagreement was there mate.

#35 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: didn't LT just stop Warlock from using tthe LT at some point?

like, he just said "order will be restored to this hearing"

again, the presence of the hourglass seemed to weaken Protege more that Scathan did

#36 Edited by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: didn't LT just stop Warlock from using the LT at some point?

Towards the end of Infinity Wars yes he rules against it and that was an incomplete infinity gauntlet and no one tried to used it after LT ruled against it, but then it was later reveled during Illumaniti that the Gauntlet still works, they even said something like Infinity Gauntlet doesnt work, says who?

Then we actually see Captain American use the infinity gauntlet much recently in New Avengers 03, but it broke, and when asked Hickman himself said few things have to be tweaked for Infinity Gauntlet. He essentially has made all the hax items in marvel managable.

IG - universal power now

UN - Mad Celestials were able to tank it

Starbrand - was explained as power to unmake a planet, when a hell lord has challanged LT with it .

like, he just said "order will be restored to this hearing"

Yeah he essentially restored all the abstract who were flown here and there by a blast from IG. Which is pretty cool.

After all LT is greater than IG, although not much a whole lot in classic days, now though it universal so inconsequential to LT standard.

again, the presence of the hourglass seemed to weaken Protege more that Scathan did

I would ask why, because he looked scared?

He is a kid, behind hold firmly by Scanthan who restrained him before as well.

That really doesnt change or take away Scanthan's feat at all.

#37 Edited by rondoudou (182 posts) - - Show Bio

well i find it kinda funny that the celestials never seem to appear when the universe is in danger, like where were they in infinity gaunlet or the chaos war?

#38 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: whats the UN?

alaso, we're not entirely sure if Scathan actually did anything to damage Protege

@rondoudou: Zairan the tester and One-Above-All were totally there fighting Thanos w/IG

#39 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1:

UN stands for ultimate nullifier a device capable of destroying the multiverse.

#40 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: My scans weren't out of context . As you yourself have shown us , the Abstracts' combined blast merely created a wormhole above Galactus' ship . Plus I also mentioned that we only see his shadow at the center of the blast which doesn't necessarily mean that he tanked the blast , because in the next instance Reed Richards redirects the blast upon the Abstracts , thereby saving Galactus .

It's overkill because of the overwhelming amount of collateral damage it would've caused . When Galactus actually ended up getting nearly killed by his own device getting turned on him , how much collateral damage was caused ? City-wide barely . That's why its overkill .

You contradict yourself when you claim that nobody defeated Galactus yet the plot nearly killed him . The heroes defeated Galactus , and that's it.

If you think that a being more powerful than the Living Tribunal , whether weakened or not , can be claimed by Mistress Death then you need help .

Galactus had to merge with the Silver Surfer in order to be saved . You think the Living Tribunal would be subject to something like that ?

#41 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: My scans weren't out of context . As you yourself have shown us , the Abstracts' combined blast merely created a wormhole above Galactus' ship . Plus I also mentioned that we only see his shadow at the center of the blast which doesn't necessarily mean that he tanked the blast , because in the next instance Reed Richards redirects the blast upon the Abstracts , thereby saving Galactus .

1. The Death nearly claiming Galactus and Silver Surfer felt a bit out of context.

2. The abstract where trying to attack Galactus and we see them attack Galactus and we see his shadow in the middle, how else can we interpret it with anything other than that.

3. Reed did NOT redirect their blast, Reed merely blasted the abstracts with his particle canon, in fact particle doesnt doesnt re-direct the blast, it was explained in Issue 02 that the particle canon was meant to hit and cause a chain reaction within the abstract entity thereby in effect using abstract own power against them.

There is absolutely no evidence that Reed did anything other than blast the abstract, not sure where you are getting the "redirected the blast" from.

4. The blast merely created a worm-hole, my question would be SO WHAT? We see the blast is the combination of the beings, we see the blast actually hit Galactus, we see Reed himself say the reading is off the scale, we see the use of the word "must"

Everything pointing it was a genuine blast, if worm-home was created as a side-effect of the blast i dont see how that in any shape or form takes away what happened or was supposed to happen.

It's overkill because of the overwhelming amount of collateral damage it would've caused . When Galactus actually ended up getting nearly killed by his own device getting turned on him , how much collateral damage was caused ? City-wide barely . That's why its overkill .

1. When Galactus was nearly killed how much collateral damange would it would have caused, GALAXY LEVEL

Exactly the collateral damange it would have caused had it not.

So no, i see absolutely no reason for it to be over kill and everything suggesting that it shouldnt be.

You contradict yourself when you claim that nobody defeated Galactus yet the plot nearly killed him . The heroes defeated Galactus , and that's it.

Now you are getting overly technical, no one defeated Galactus in a fight, Galactus lost to plot.

Plot > TOAA :p

So the point was there is nothing to contradict his feat, not sure why you are trying so hard to just not accept whats there, plain as day , on panel.

If you think that a being more powerful than the Living Tribunal , whether weakened or not , can be claimed by Mistress Death then you need help .

And thats called poppy cock derival, and has no place on discussion.

I myself said it doesnt fit well with the continuity.

That being said, there is nothing to suggest Galactus did not tank the blast, there is nothing to suggest they did not need to combine the blast, and since they did combine the blast and even then did not managed to actually kill galactus outright in a short period of time, for that issue thats a genuine feat.

Secondly we have seen Korvac who was beyond judgement claimed by Lady Death, i see no reason to believe otherwise on whats on panel.

You can say it doesnt sit well with LT chronology, fine, but that still does NOT take away a clear as day, on panel feat.

Galactus had to merge with the Silver Surfer in order to be saved . You think the Living Tribunal would be subject to something like that ?

Again this question has no place in the discussion.

Galactus was going to die because of plot thats different.

We see on panel LT needing help to beat Galactus and thats his feat.

Nothing before or after does absolutely anything to change the validity of a feat that is clear as day on panel.

Besides Galactus has to be defeated at the end, thats plot.

#42 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

so, in your opinion, could LPS Galactus defeat

-The Celestial One-Above-All?

-Santhan the Approver?

Tiamut the Dreamning Celestial?

#43 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

so, in your opinion, could LPS Galactus defeat

-The Celestial One-Above-All?

-Santhan the Approver?

Tiamut the Dreamning Celestial?

Well the opinion would depend, we know for a fact that the whole Last Planet Standing does not fit well with the continuity so its upto one to decide:

1. Was it PIS and rubbish

2. Take it as genuine and not worry about chronology.

I am taking 2.

One Above All, Galactus should be able to beat him. He doesnt really have a lot of feat.

Scanthan would be interesting, but thats the whole thing, both Scanthan feat and Galactus feat does not sit well with the contuinity, a gut feeling, i would actually give Scanthan a win over Galactus, but thats just me i dont really have a solid basis to answer.

Tiamut is just a normal celestial, arguably stronger than Arishem, an amped up Galactus should be able to beat him i would assume.

If i consider that feat PIS i would still think Galactus could take One Above All or Tiamut if he was normally fed. Its Exitar Galactus would lose against unless he is heavily amped.

#44 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: CTOAA was summoned to beone of the cosmic defenders rather than the other Celestials, which would imply that he's the strongest of his race

also, why do you consider Exitar more powerful than any othermemeber of his race?

#45 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: CTOAA was summoned to beone of the cosmic defenders rather than the other Celestials, which would imply that he's the strongest of his race

I do not think it does because the he wasnt alone, he has Ziran alongside him and we know Ziran isnt the second most powerful celestial .

#46 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: well, do we really know that Ziran was any weakaer than the rest of his race?

maybe he was there to test the IG

I always kinda thought that he was there becasue he created Thanos, and guilt/honor/social pressures made hi try to handle the situation

#47 Posted by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: well, do we really know that Ziran was any weakaer than the rest of his race?

Of course we do, after all the most powerful member in the fourth host, and consistently the most powerful member of 616 celestial is said to be Exitar.

He has on panel been called more powerful than fourth host combined. Even Tiamut's bio says while it is uncertain how his powerful compares with Arishem, but its unlikely his power would exceed that of Exitar who dwarfs Arishem in size and might.

maybe he was there to test the IG

And One Above All is the pilot of Celestial ship, perhaps he was invited because he was the one who had the ship and hence could get their quicker.

There are so many things you are infer from that, make your assumption.

Point in the end was we havent really seen anything to suggest TOAA being so much more powerful than anyone else apart from the generic "most powerful of them all" title which is the same title Tiamut as well as Arishem have,

I always kinda thought that he was there becasue he created Thanos, and guilt/honor/social pressures made hi try to handle the situation

We dont know who created Thanos, Celestials together did that you know creating Eternals and deviants, we however know Fulcrum commanded to have deviants erased, Tiamut fought back and was banished on Earth.

#48 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: the Exitar>Fourth Host was a staement made by Thor, who isn't exactly an expert on that

going by feats, Exitar seems weaker than the other Celestials (Thor was able to break his armor while the Destroyer could hardly damage anyone)

how do we know Arishem was the strongets of the fourth host?

read the last sentence of this page

#49 Edited by Killemall (18462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: the Exitar>Fourth Host was a staement made by Thor, who isn't exactly an expert on that

Its to some extent backed by the bio.

Not to mention he is specifically drawn to be a lot bigger than every other celestial, why else would they make him bigger than everyone else if he wasnt meant to the most powerful (its not a proof just food for thought)

going by feats, Exitar seems weaker than the other Celestials (Thor was able to break his armor while the Destroyer could hardly damage anyone)

The Destroyed ripped out an arm of the celestial btw.

And Thor broke his dome, that doesnt really affect much after all he instantly healed.

how do we know Arishem was the strongets of the fourth host?

When did i say Arishem was strongest of the fourth host? o_o

I have been saying Exitar is.

Where was this revealed? I generally dont trust wiki most often but depending who edited it could like to true. Also going by the explaination it looks like it was revealed in Marvel Universe : The End which does not take place in 616 reality.

#50 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

eh, Exitar has bigger armor, but his treu Celestial size has an abstarct size, like alll of the other celestials: his increased size might just eman he has a greater connection to our dimensions ofreality

Exitart wasn't actally part of the fourth host

I don't actually know when it was revealed