Galactic Empire and Covenant vs Imperial Gaurd and Orks

Galactic Empire:

General:

Darth Vader

100,000 Storm troopers (E-11 blasters, 2 thermals each)

500 Dark troopers type 3

100 spider bikes

300 A5-RX Tanks

200 AT-ST walkers

50 TIE fighters

20 TIE interceptors

and

Covenant:

General:

Current Arbiter

100,000 Jakals (beam rifles)

7,500 Brutes (jet packs, spikers and brute shots)

200 Hunters

300 Ghosts

100 Banshes

75 Phantoms

50 Seraph fighters

vs

Imperial guard:

Commander:

Cain

100,000 guardsmen (Armageddon steel legion, equipped with lasguns)

200 Space Marines (blood angels)

125 Rhinos

150 Sentinels (mars variants)

50 Basilisks

35 Thunderbolt Fighters

and

Orks:

General:

warboss demonkilla

115,000 Shotta boys

300 Nobs

300 warwaggons

50 Mega nobs

50 ork fighters

Rules:

morals off

Both sides are working together.

Gear:

Standard unless specified

Battlefield:

Desert, low visibility, lots of cover and various mountains, hills, mounds and ruins to fight in. The armies start 1 mile apart.

version:

composite

Victory conditions:

forced retreat or surrender

Quick note I will be referring to the Galactic Empire as 'the empire' while the Imperium will just be the Imperium just to avoid any confusion.

The Covenant doesn't really belong in this fight in my opinion, all of the other factions have had much higher showings of firepower and consequently durability. Seeing as you're using Dark Troopers in the Galactic Imperial force I'm assuming that you are using Legends canon here. In which case that puts the Covenant as a major weak link, they might be some help but really only serving as more manpower and not really useful ones at that especially if they are up against Orks. The average Ork boy has ridiculous durability not necessarily because you can't hurt them, but because they have such an absurd tolerance for pain most Orks don't even seem to realize that they should be dead from certain wounds and just keep coming. There have been instances of Orks have parts of their heads blown off and they kept going if only for a little while.

If the Orks (or Space Marines) get close to the regular troops of either of team 1 their chances of winning in melee are nonexistent, the average Ork boy is several times stronger and more durable than an average human and that's not even mentioning the Nobs who are stronger and tougher than 'smaller, runtier, Orks.'

The Imperium's and Empire's respective ground troops are about the same in terms of quantity, while I would put the average Legends canon Stormtrooper above the average Imperial Guardsman, though depending on the Guradsmans respective regiment/unit it can vary. Team 1's lack of artillery will really be hurting them here, especially since Team 2 has access to 50 long range guns that can seriously do some damage, more so to the Covenant than the Empire but still that's damage that Team 1 won't be able to return until they get closer. The relatively short starting distance will help Team 2 to be honest because they can still hit Team 1 with their long range guns and they can close into melee that much faster and once that happens it's over.

In terms of vehicles the Empire comes out on top in terms of numbers and durability/firepower with the A5-RX's however that is really Team 1s only noteworthy advantage besides Vader given they are superior combat vehicles to the Rhino and Sentinel Team 2 is sporting, but Team 2s artillery advantage and superior infantry really tip the scale in their favor. The Empire also beats out either of Team 2s air forces, Ties may not be exactly on par with the space faring version of Thunderbolts, but the downgraded versions used in planetary battles aren't nearly as tough or have as much fire power. While the TIEs retain all of their space faring armament. Ork and Covenant fighters aren't really worth a mention here seeing as the Imperiums and Empires respective air forces will blow theirs (covenant and orks) out of the sky before they have a chance to do anything then settle it between themselves with the Empire coming out on top imo.

As it stands I don't see a way for Team 1 to take all that many wins even with Vader in command and nearly indestructible Phase 3 Dark Troopers at their disposal, the Covenant are really just dead weight which severely limits their chances. I would consider adding some kind of melee troops to Team 1 maybe some Yuuzhan Vong warriors to mix things up with the Orks and Space Marines at close range. Perhap even swap out the covenant for the Vong entirely but as the OP it's your call. I give this to Team 2 8-9/10 given their superior quality rank and file troops (thanks largely to the Orks), superior melee capabilities (Orks and Space Marines), artillery advantage to counter Team 1s vehicle advantage, while Team 1 really only has an advantage in air support, which will certainly help but not enough against these particular enemy armies.

@paragonnate: Wut, is that you with your long posts? :P

Also the low visibility won't be a problem for Stormtroopers as their helmets can have them see in darkness, hazy, smoke, etc filled conditions. Being that this takes place in a desert also, they are most likely going to be Desert Stormtroopers...in which they are trained for this sort of environment and will know how to use it most effectively in battle.

This is just a general observation of the battlefield, nothing particular set towards you Para, I don't really wanna get involved, just throwing in my 2 cents.

The side with Vader, full stop

@paragonnate: "The Covenant doesn't really belong in this fight in my opinion, all of the other factions have had much higher showings of firepower and consequently durability. " <-- wrong, especially on ground. Covenant's brutes are actually tougher than you think. They completely ignore UNSC fire guns. He just lacks on giving the decent amount of covenant people.

Hunters would wreck ur storm troopers and plasma nades are superior to therms. Mite want to recheck ur answer on that. I'm also sure if the wraith tank could land a few hits especially in this environment they'd wreck anything the imps have to offer. With this said the IG and SM would alone take on two of these armies and prolly win. Orks on the other hand ur gonna need the covenant brutes to even match them in hand to hand action something a lot of star wars lacks in.

@army2442: what type of brutes and do they get the spike nades or the plasma nades, and why no elites? grunts? or flying bugs? D:.

Mhh 1 mile apart huh? wheres the imps and covies artilley?? Not that'd it matter imps lasguns would prolly one shot the stormtroopers that come running up. Jackals would have superior range in this battle so with that they'd take out a lot of orks and IG. I just don't think it'd be enough. O wait u added 50 Seraph fighters mhh their bombing runs could take out the ig artilley, unless the IG has some AA i'm not seeing they'd prolly win team 1 the side if that is the case.

Bump.

I'm pretty sure the Covenant and Galactic Empire have the better weapons and ships than the Guard and the Orks, and they definitely have more variety, in terms of gear and combatants with special abilities. I'm not sure, though.

@silverrings: Technically no, Lasguns are weak, but they are still extremely powerful. The Empire's dark troops and Vader are prolly the only ones really valuable in this fight per say. Orks are bound to go close quarters which hunters and brutes could take on, and the jackals are extremely good sniper rifles even tagging chief who can dodge gun fire at point blank range i believe. The only saving grace imo for team 1 is the 50 Seraph fighters. they are able to do bombing runs and other things and their weapons would be enough to hurt the Imps and ork's stuff. Along with them having shields that are able to tank heavy damage that mite be thrown at them as well.

@army2442: btw u never answered my question? on if the brutes have plasma nades and what type of troops are u allowing as well?

....What lol. They are weak, yet powerful at the same time? o.o

@wolfrazer: They are weak in the warhammer universe, however they can be turned up on power as well they are usually set on lower power during normal human fights and are turned up in power during ork and just about everyone fights. They are weak considering what the bolter can do, what the necron's pis weapon can do, to what ork weapons can do, etc. However, they are prolly just a tier ahead of both the covenant and the imp's weapons. This doesn't mean though that they will be unstoppable just with the orks there and their heavy artillery it's going to be a pain for team 1 to win, especially the terrain he had picked. As i said the biggest winning factor is 50 Seraph fighters which are used for bombing runs and have energy shields to block a lot if not all fire arms used in this fight, this doesn't count though the heavier weapons the IG and orks are packing. Warhammer is just on a whole different level compared to halo and star wars.

With that said I'm not gonna low ball the covies or imps and say they stand zero chance, but they prolly will only win a 3/10 on this fight.

@killerwasp: Well how powerful are the lasguns? Like what can they punch through?

@Killerwasp You do know that this is a team fight right? Anyway, as I said the brutes are all ultra ranked with brute shots, spikers, and now I will give 1 in 5 fuel rods as well.

@wolfrazer: You know the basics concrete, metals, make people explode, etc. What i feel gives them the advantage though or the main advantage is unlimited ammo. Something both our teams would lack, so the Ig literally could just spray the field with volleys of fire ( which they do ) and lvl the place.

@army2442: Yes ik, i was referring to the person suggesting the covenant don't belong here. I was telling him to not underestimate the covenant basically. Anyway "as I said the brutes are all ultra ranked" <-- where did u say this? Doesn't matter anyway ill side with team 1 due to their air support i feel being superior to team 2's.

@killerwasp: Eh nothing the Imp's E-11s can't do, but yeah the unlimited ammo would be an issue. Although it's not like the IG couldn't be flanked or whatever. The Stormtroopers do also have an advantage of AOE attack with their landspeeder busting thermal dets.

Do the IGs have equipment to help with the low visibility? That could also be an issue for them, something the Stormtroopers don't have.

@wolfrazer: I'm pretty sure they do, however keep in mind this is legion of steel here. Flanking is easier said than done. legion in steel for this landscape is their best they are a seige regiment, and like all siege regiments are pretty dang good with their artillery and armor. On top of that Cain is in charge which would give them a big edge. On top of having to deal with ork charges and ork weapons ( which can be considered on par with space marine weapons ). That's a lot of fire power to say the least. Covenant weapons have good aoe and good burning textures as well, but he didn't really give a ton of plasma pistols or rifles to them and the brute weapons he did give were basically their version of pistols which can do what others can do, but are not as effective as the other plasma based weapons. Also I do believe the IG carry the Flak Armour which could be enough to stop the weapons on team 1 for a few rounds tops, but they are all different there is no set armor for them, and as i've stated the lasgun could be turned up to do more damage IIRC causing armored foes to explode and such.

The brutes get brute shots, the jakals get plasma pistols as well as beam rifles. Also I added in that the brutes get fuel rods as well (one in five do).

@killerwasp: Well how durable is the Flak armor? Although if the armor is more of a variety thing for the IG then guess it doesn't matter much.

@wolfrazer: Actually it does, because depending on the Ig regiment it will be more suited for their type of fighting. In this case the legion of Steel will prolly wear heavier flak which is able to stop small arms IIRC from other forces, and of course they face tons of orks as well, so with that in mine as i said it mite take a few shots to kill them rather than that of another IG regiment that mite wear a different flak type of armor. All flak does carry the standard base, what they add on it is dependent on the regiment.

@killerwasp: Ah...well then I don't see flak armor stopping a direct blaster shot, the E-11s aren't small arms.

Bump.

I vote Team 2 after a good fight.

Bump.

Bump.

Anyways, on lasguns, they are called 'flashlights' by 40kers, not because they are weak compared to modern day weaponry, but... they are just really weak compared to the weapons everyone one else brings to the battlefield.

Lasguns punch through and warp metal, punch through concrete, cause bodies to explode by instantly vaporizing the moisture and causing it to expand, etc. But when compared to say... a Shuriken Catapult that throws out hundreds, to thousands, of shurikens that are the width of a single molecule allowing them to pierce and penetrate just about anything by cutting at a molecular level, or bolters which turn people's organs to mush if they just pass by them, necron gauss rifles that rip the target to their molecular level then suck it back into the gun, etc... and they are rather weak when put next to other 'basic' weaponry from other races.

Lasguns and Blasters are, honestly, just about even. I would say the lasgun is better against unarmored people (As it has more showings of causing flesh to explode) or lightly armored targets, while I would take a blaster if I was going against something a little heavier just because I feel the blaster has superior penetration in regard to metal.

Lasguns are very reliable as in if they go onto a daemon world, the lasgun is one of the last weapons to start to go nuts, while they don't really have 'infinite' ammo, the ammo is pretty ridiculous as their energy packs can be recharged by any electrical source, they can even toss it into a fire, and it will recharge, but not quite unlimited.

Some lasguns have different power settings, others only have one. Depends on the lasgun and the regiment. The only option they all have is to go from single or full auto.

@wut: answer the question punk xD or was that xD

@killerwasp: Lol if you mean are me and Paragon the same person, no, we aren't. I break up my long army replies to make them easier to see the sections. :P

Plus there are a few things I disagree with, but I agree that this will end in the IG and Orks favor.

The things I disagree with are, the Covenant can aid in this ground battle as suggesting they could not face normal imperial guardsmen is.... odd.

I disagree on the air because I firmly believe team 2 has the advantage. TIE Fighters and Interceptors are only half as fast as Thunderbolts in atmosphere. 1,200 kph for the TIE and 1,250 for the Interceptor compared to the 2,200 kph for the Thunderbolt in atmosphere and there is no given speed for the Ork Fighta, but given that it can tango with the Imperial Navy implies they move roughly the same amount (probably faster given Ork nature and giving no cares or regards to the laws of physics.)

Thunderbolts still pack two lascannons. Neither the TIE fighter or Interceptor are tanking hits from those.

Team 1 does have the massive 'fighter' Seraphs which are ridiculously large which, if they are smart, they will use it purely as a massively over-sized bomber.

Besides that I completely agree with the A5-RX being the superior vehicle to the Rhino and Sentinels. these are only mars pattern so lightly armored and just a multilaser, it is purely scout and anti-infantry while the A5-RX does have rocket launchers to help it against other lighter armor and it has far more weaponry then the Rhino does which normally only bring a storm bolter. (Rhinos are pure transports)

@wut: "Lol if you mean are me and Paragon the same person, no, we aren't. I break up my long army replies to make them easier to see the sections. :P" <-- XD

"Plus there are a few things I disagree with, but I agree that this will end in the IG and Orks favor." <-- i did to until i saw the covenant Aircraft which ik is faster than the ork air and the IG don't got AA. Well true ur right about the aircraft, but the covenant aircraft has shielding which is able to block from heavy firing from the UNSC longswords which we all know pack a punch. Not saying it'd be easy but the Covenant are able to do impossible turns and kill experience pilots regardless if they are experienced themselves because it is still superior. Problem i have is the speed on it we both know that they have never listed the speed of it not even in space for this fighter. Anyway i figured a few bombing runs would be enough to even out the odds on the ground.

"The things I disagree with are, the Covenant can aid in this ground battle as suggesting they could not face normal imperial guardsmen is.... odd." <-- what u mean?

Bump.

@army2442: A quick question, you know in every thread you make with the Imperial Guard you always seem to include Space Marines, whys that?

@JwwProd I just like me some space Marines. Also the imperial guard doesn't have alot of special infantry units to pick from.

@army2442 said:

@JwwProd I just like me some space Marines. Also the imperial guard doesn't have alot of special infantry units to pick from.

Well I personally wouldn't add Space Marines because then it really wouldn't feel like an Imperial Guard vs thread if you ask me.

@JwwProd I only added enough Marines to be a factor but not enough to overwhelm the other team.

Bump.

Been away for a few days, just thought I'd pop in and respond to some posts thrown my way.

@wolfrazer@wut

You guys are right, now that I've had more time to think about it the covenant aren't as outclassed infantry-wise as I initially thought. I was letting my opinion on how a space battle would go influence my opinion here.

I still feel that team two takes this but it will be far closer than my initial assessment. I think that given the lasguns firepower when compared to standard UNSC firearms the Guardsmen will do better against the Covenant than their UNSC counterparts. Stormtroopers aren't as incompetent as the movies make them seem, in Legends canon they are shown to be an elite unit, feared by the Empire's enemies I would give them a better chance against the Orks than the average Guardsmen but still see the Boyz coming out on top. I didn't have numbers on the fighters speed so yeah team 2 may have the edge there as well although team 1 does outnumber them fghter-wise. *shrugs*

Really though there are just so many potential factors we could all sit here for a couple of days going back and forth, I know you guys think team 2 wins as well so it's no big deal. I agree with most of what you guys said now that I have more time to think. Also, no me and Wut aren't the same person. -.- ....... :D

@paragonnate: They weren't really incompetent in the movies either, but that's another discussion entirely. But yes there are many factors, hence why I don't really like battles like this. Unless of course it's factions of the same universe, within the same universe, those are easier to understand and debate for imo. Although smaller based battle, could be more manageable.

@paragonnate: I agree, Imperial Guard weaponry will do better against the covenants then normal UNSC rifles which are, essentially, just Space AK47s.

The thing about the aircraft is while the Imperial ones are faster, I would give the mobility edge to Star Wars because their shields allow them to ignore air resistance, but that said, Imperial craft are better equipped for ship to ship warfare in sub-atmosphere while I would be inclined to give Imperial ships the superior armor as well given they are built heavier then the TIE fighter, feel free to correct me if I am wrong Razer, but I believe they were not made with durability in mind but raw speed which is why I, generally, give Imperial sub-atmosphere vessels the edge. Speed + Durabilty + Weaponry vs Mobility (Weaponry is debatable depending on what evidence each side wants to use.)

But, overall, I liked your post, and I am really glad that someone, besides myself, is willing to look at these kind of match ups and take it step by step which is why I think so many people struggle. They try to take it all in at once, you can't do that. You have to take it step by step, break it into smaller pieces, examine the smaller pieces and then reconstruct it.

@wut: Both the TIE fighter and Interceptor are extremely fast and highly maneuverable , the Interceptor moreso. Yeah they weren't made for durability, but made to be agile and quick, the TIE fighter alone was the dominate fighter in the galaxy up until the X-wing came along and the Empire had to design the Interceptor to combat it. Hence while the TIE pilots were expendable and they knew that, they were also the best pilots in the galaxy out of training.

@wolfrazer: I should probably add superior pilots to the Empire's side then as well. While naval Imperium pilots are good, I wouldn't say they are the best as, 90% of all writers, forget that the Imperium has space fighters preferring to just say, 'Big ships are taking pot shots at each... but... >.> Down here on this planet there is a super awesome war going on! And it is not like whoever wins the space battle wins the planet, this ground war is super important!'

I was 99.99% sure my memory was correct in that they were not built for durability and that they had a short life expectancy because of it, but I wanted your input to be sure.

(Honestly, only ones a ground war really matters against are the Nids and Chaos. Nids because it is a way to cut down their biomass and Chaos because... if you don't fight them... they turn the planet into a Daemon World, and it is gone anyways no matter what the fleets do. Then again... fighting them gives them power too. Hell if you do, and hell if you don't I suppose.)

@wut: Yeah...I mean really, unless the faction is intending to take the planet without any harm done to it. The space battle really is the most important, as whoever wins could just bombard the planet from orbit. Although that would be logical, most stories just have them go planet side anyway to have an engaging battle/story....not that there isn't anything wrong with that of course.

@wolfrazer: It is hard to do many compelling stories when 40k ships snipe at each other across hundreds of thousands of kilometers, but I merely wish they would spend a little more time fleshing it out. I just wish writers, in all sci-fi, would spend a little more time talking about the space battle.

I understand how ground battles are better to write as we, as people, better relate to that, but it wouldn't kill them to spend a few extra paragraphs on the space battle above.

@wut

I would just like to add really fast, Galactic Empire pilots train at the academy but only the top 10% of each class are accepted as actual pilots all of the others 'wash out' into other positions in the navy. Gunners, fighter maintenance crews etc.

Honestly in terms of a space battle I would still give it to team 2, the Covenant really have no place in a space battle with the other three factions. Which is why I downplayed them here at first.

Yeah that too, probably should have added that, but yeah only 10% actually became pilots.

@wolfrazer: @paragonnate: In a true space battle? They don't, but it isn't a true space battle. They are fighting sub-atmosphere, (honestly, look up the size of the Seraph and try to picture it turning in atmosphere at high speeds...).

So durability, speed and weaponry vs mobility and superior pilots. I would still give the edge to team 2 due to having 3 to 2, but it would be close especially since most of team 2 are Ork pilots who, while crazy, are... crazy, but the edge should be really slim to the point of it not being a factor as they should be fighting it out long enough to not really be able to greatly effect the battle, overall.