Fujitora vs Killer Bee

I agree with this if a meteor would have naturally been pulled into earth's atmosphere...

but if a person has the power to manipulate gravity... what stops them from slowing down the meteor as it get's closer? or affecting it's gravitation's effect on the earth before impact? why assume they only used their power to get the meteor and then just let it do w.e. when the rest of what happens can also be explained with their power...

as for speed, a gravity manipulator should be able slow the meteor down so that a baby can react to it.

r1: without hachi i can see fuji winning

r2: Bee stomps

@princearagorn1: Wait what? Why are meteors so slow?

I replied to what I found relevant.

There's no "by definition" given in the manga. Its all assumptions. Do we know Oda is not pulling the meteors out of his a**e? They did not travel "from" anywhere that has been given. They fell from the sky. Vague. Yours is just assumptions, speculations.

Yeah I agree with this. Because hachi less feats by Bee are at best city busting (assuming hachi is still allowed version one and two jinchurikki mode).

@kingh: that's what I asked you lol

Meteors are rocks flying dead in space. They only pick any relevant speed when they make contact with the planet's gravity.

yep but for r1 i assumed by "no hachibi" the op meant no hachibi at all, so Bee without bijuu.

@lowlaville:

you do understand that the "sky" is a part of the atmosphere right...?

you're so tied up in your hate for one piece, that you're basically just saying anything at this point.

i too asumed that r1 is without bijuu, i dont think that Fuji has enough feats to put him against cloak mode bee.

r2 is not even debatable

What's your point then? What I'm trying to say is, they fell down from the "atmosphere" as you call it. That's a vague impression. You are assuming so much more than that. There's no point whatsoever in such assumptions. For instance, we had no idea when Madara called two giant meteors from the "sky" where they had come from. After the Chibaku Tensei, we know where they must've come from. However before that, we could only assume where. The fallacy you are dwelling on is as such. There's no mention, or question of a gravity belt, pulling meteors from anywhere and just pulling them to Earth. If this was the case, Fuji can bust the entire planet with a swing of his blade. He barely busted a city block.

You may want to refer back to what I said about where Oda pulls the meteorites from. Still relevant.

I don't practically hate the series. I hate the artworks and the beards and the hair in one piece. There are a fair bit of personalities and characters I like. Take Borsalino, Marco, Eneru and Lucci for instance.. I like them.

@lowlaville: i only had to read you're first paragraph to already see that you're doing it again.

Listen, how can you say i'm assuming more than that, when i have never said such?

AND then say there's no point in making assumptions.

You do realize that what YOU are saying is in itself an assumption? i never said more than the meteor fell through the atmosphere, because it did. you're the only one making assumptions here and yet you accuse me of it AND tell me there's no point in assumptions. Ha! the irony.

Now, if assumptions are what you want, here are a few.

Fuji's power is gravitation manipulation

Fuji's power is NOT matter manipulation

Fuji cannot create objects from thin air

Fuji cannot teleport objects

Meteors do NOT form naturally within the planet's atmosphere

The Metoer must have therefore been pulled from outside of the atmosphere by fuji.

There is a system of logical assumptions. Now. Tell me where i am wrong One piece hater.

@Cooldes: @whoisme: Regardless of any science I think we're all getting pretty far off topic here. Whether you believe Fujitora or Pain has the stronger gravity ability the point is that Bee has feats against gravity manipulators like Pain and Madara whereas as Fujitora has no feats against beings capable of the destruction a tailed beast produces. It has been shown that gravity does not affect the bijuu bomb, and the bombs have been shown to easily obliterate the biggest meteor we've seen produced by Fujitora. Until somebody can prove that spamming meteors is better than spamming bijuu bombs then Bee>Fujitora by feats.

@roronuffy:

i'm on topic, I've never even said Fuji wins, I was just disproving the random thing you've all been saying that make no sense

@Cooldes: Those are some bold claims, but I can debunk your erroneous claim easily. Here's where you are assuming more than the statement you are accusing me of manipulating. This is on the previous page. Do note how this is the one part of your argument I'm calling out, and thus essentially disproving your fallacy. This is a level of information that does not exist in the manga, born out of pure speculation and assumption, and a simple hyperbole based on the fact that the meteor falls from the sky, "atmosphere" as you call.

There we go. First you say they are assumptions. And then you ask me where you are wrong? lol You know exactly where you are wrong, you don't really need me to tell you that. o.o

@Cooldes: wrong part is, meteors aren't just lying there in space, just beyond the atmosphere to call. there isn't any way for either character's gravity to make them cross tens of thousands of miles in a few seconds. And a meteor travelling at that kind of speed could easily life wipe the planet, or a massive area. Madara's meteor killed some fodder directly below it. Fujitora's failed to do even that.

Any way, based off their other. If you are saying both of them slowed meteors on purpose, you'll need feats to say they can do better, but didn't. Besides, based on other Gravitational feats in either series, neither madara nor Fujitora could summon a meteor that fast.

@lowlaville: We don't know how powerful Fuji is. He said he's not going nearly all out.

We know that the meteors Madara summoned came from somewhere within the atmosphere, as they weren't burning.

All I had to say

P.S. Personally, artwork doesn't affect the quality of a story for me, and I like Oda's art, but I see how it could be deterring

@princearagorn1: No I was asking what makes the meteors extraordinary slow lol. Hiw fast do you think there going? Hypersonic, massively hypersonic, etc.

Just what part of your original context did I miss? XD

You are still arguing and debating on practically the same concepts.

1. I know, that's why they're are such powerful feats...

Nothing in the manga supports your speculation.

2. And why not? with complete control over gravity, they should definitely be able to control the speed(by controlling the force, and therefore controlling the acceleration)

Not stated in the manga.

3. yes, a meteor Naturally falling at such speeds would instantly destroy us all just by entering our atmosphere, and even before that...

BUT, with the power of complete control over gravity, they should easily be able to make it so that the mass of the meteor has no effect on our planet, and have the power to substantially, if not completely slow the meteor to whatever velocity they'd find suitable.

Speculation.

4. what? why do I need feats to say they can do better... than what the feat already shows?

Major fallacy. There's nothing in the manga that supports 1% of what you are speculating on. lmao

Sorry for the double post.

@lowlaville:

literally none of what you just wrote has anything to do with anything I wrote to him...

You keep referencing our earth but the OP world or Naruto world are their own planets in their own universes. For all we know there could be meteors orbiting just like satellites "just beyond the atmosphere to call". Its a fictional universe so the author can make as many improbable things happen as he pleases. There aren't any orbiting earth but that's not to say there couldn't be if there some approached with the right speed and direction to get pulled in to earths gravitational field.

You've proved nothing. Not once have you even addressed the possibility that there are meteors orbiting the respective planets. All you keep referencing is how things work near earth but it has been proven already that neither of these planets are earth. You say how it takes so much force to pull a speeding meteor of its path and trajectory but you have no proof that the meteors in question were not already in the planets orbit. In fact by what we see on panel showing the meteors falling at such a steep angle and how quickly they arrived would suggest that they were not only already orbiting just outside the planet's atmosphere and also that it's very probable they were moving at a relatively slow orbit speed relative to the planet's rotation.

Finally there is this

This panel disproves everything you've said. If a meteor this size was able to travel the distance you say in the amount of time shown, even the chunks of this meteor should've devastated this entire section of the grand line, let alone this island. The one's that madara called down were even bigger and should have devastated the entire planet and yet neither character's meteors did much more than enough to destroy a few city blocks. Here is some math for you, you say that this meteor travelled at least 2500 miles (what yall have stated as the closest meteor to earth) in about 10 seconds (generous estimate since he seemed to call them instantaneously) which comes out to about 900,000 mph. If a meteor the size of a house strikes the earth at 30,000 mph it would have as much force as the bomb that fell on Hiroshima. http://science.howstuffworks.com/nature/natural-disasters/asteroid-hits-earth.htm

So by your estimate a chunks of a meteor is clearly at least a mile wide and moving at roughly 900,000 merely destroyed a few buildings? That is illogical and makes it FAR more probable that they were in fact orbiting just past the planet's atmosphere moving at a slow relative speed to the rotation of the planet.

But of course that's just my opinion and you clearly have the superior math and logic skills here.

@roronuffy:

it seems you've only read half of what I've said... someone with gravitational manipulation should be scientifically able

a) slow down the meteor

b) manipulate the effects of the meteors gravitational effect on the planet(by manipulating the meteors gravity)

c) not a point, but don't argue with me, I also think it makes more sense that they pulled a meteor from orbit... but people like lowlaville say there's no proof to this and therefore we can't say it did come from orbit... even though

1 Fuji couldn't have teleported the meteor because he doesn't have that power

2 Fuji couldn't have created the meteor because he doesn't have the power of matter manipulation or creating things from thin-air

3 meteors aren't created within the atmosphere, and with all three of these things being true, there's no other option other than... it was pulled from orbit or deeper space.

How fast would the meteors be going if he pulled them from the orbit of the planet? (Enlighten mee)

@Cooldes: Ok then let's look at your two possibilities

1. Deep space - if this were true than he had a strong enough gravitional power to get a meteor at least a mile wide over 2500 miles away not only off it's original trajectory but also at speeds of at least 900,000 mph and then slowing it by about 1000x (judging by the lack of damage it did) over a distance of only about 30 miles. If that's true than holy crap he is powerful and should have the capabilities to easily create a gravitational force able to easily crush every atom of Sabos being into a ball the size of a grain of sand regardless of whether he was a flame or not. And yet when he was "getting serious" he merely warped some buildings.

2. Close orbit - This can't be true because you already stated how my math was awful and he pulled a meteor of it's trajectory at incredibly high travel speeds. If they were close and moving slowly relative to the planets orbit speed then it would take a lot less force to pull them down seeing as they were far smaller than Pain's meteor and would be moving with the planet's natural gravitational pull instead of against it. But that can't be true because again you said that my math was horrible and Fujitora used a lot more power than Pain so maybe you meant to have a third option.

3. There is also the possibility that they were in fact traveling at high speeds through space and just happen to pass by close to earth right when he needed them... Twice...

I never said deep space... I said deeper space to be safe

and I was thinking more on the lines of option 2 but,

1 the reason I said your math was horrible, is because even so it would still be much harder to pull a meteor down that wasn't already heading into the atmosphere than to lift a mass up (if you have the power to manipulate gravity... you could just simply stop gravity's affect on the mass, or reverse it...)

2 I never said they were smaller, or using the planets natural gravitation...

@kingh: Depends on distance but let's say the meteor was like earth satellites that are around 200 miles away (usually a bit more than that though) and arrived within the stratosphere (about 30 miles up) within 10 seconds (though it seemed like he it there faster than that). That would give it a speed of about 61,000 mph minimum if it was already traveling that fast and he merely redirected it towards earth.

@Cooldes: They were smaller, much smaller. The panel showed them being a little bigger than a few buildings. Pain's "meteor" was bigger than the mountain range and forests that were under it. Based off the panel Pain's meteor was probably bigger than the entire island of Dressrosa. It would be much harder to lift pain's meteor than to pull Fujitora's meteors that would be mere stones by comparison... If we're assuming option 2

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=20880

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=22542

You're stuck with it either way

@roronuffy: They were smaller, much smaller. The panel showed them being a little bigger than a few buildings. Pain's "meteor" was bigger than the mountain range and forests that were under it. Based off the panel Pain's meteor was probably bigger than the entire island of Dressrosa. It would be much harder to lift pain's meteor than to pull Fujitora's meteors that would be mere stones by comparison.

That's not how gravity works. The more mass an object has, the easier it is for gravity to effect it and all objects with the same wind residence fall at the same rate anyway. All that means is that Madara was able to find a bigger meteor, not that his gravity is Stronger than Fujitora's.

@roronuffy: Deep space - if this were true than he had a strong enough gravitional power to get a meteor at least a mile wide over 2500 miles away not only off it's original trajectory but also at speeds of at least 900,000 mph and then slowing it by about 1000x (judging by the lack of damage it did) over a distance of only about 30 miles. If that's true than holy crap he is powerful and should have the capabilities to easily create a gravitational force able to easily crush every atom of Sabos being into a ball the size of a grain of sand regardless of whether he was a flame or not. And yet when he was "getting serious" he merely warped some buildings.

1. Fujitora may have not wanted to obliterate Dressrosa

2. We don't know how strong Sabo is. He may have the durability to withstand that.

@whoisme: I don't understand your point. Yes bigger objects are more affected by gravity because they have their own gravity that is also acting to help pull them closer to an object but that is only true when moving objects closer together in space. When moving a larger object away in space it requires more force since now you are acting against the gravity of both objects.

Think about magnets. While it is easier to get two big (higher powered) magnets together than a small and big one. It is still easier to move a small and big magnet together than to seperate two big ones.

Pain essentially seperated two high powered magnets whereas Fujitora just brought a low power one and a high powered one closer together.

Idk why you brought up Madara since I was only making his case earlier for the deep space argument. If they were truly that far out in space where the earth's gravity was not acting upon them it and they were all moving along their own trajectories at different speeds it would be harder to bring all those asteroids (since they would be big enough to qualify) together at once than Fujitora with his three tiny meteors in comparison.

The point isn't whether he wanted to destroy Dressrosa the point is that he was able to keep it from destroying Dressrosa. If what some of you guys are saying about the initial distance of the meteor was true than the power it would take to keep it to such minimal damage is easily continent busting level if not more. Since WB wasn't even that strong there is no way SaBo stands up to that

@roronuffy:I don't understand your point. Yes bigger objects are more affected by gravity because they have their own gravity that is also acting to help pull them closer to an object but that is only true when moving objects closer together in space

None of the meteors we are talking about are large enough to have any worthwhile amount of gravity.

When moving a larger object away in space it requires more force since now you are acting against the gravity of both objects.

You're thinking of this like they are using telekinesis to accomplish these feats or their own strength. They are not (except maybe Pain and Madara, I don't remember). Fujitora isn't working against gravity to do these things, he is controlling, heightening, lowering and redirecting it.

Think about magnets. While it is easier to get two big (higher powered) magnets together than a small and big one. It is still easier to move a small and big magnet together than to seperate two big ones.

Pain essentially seperated two high powered magnets whereas Fujitora just brought a low power one and a high powered one closer together.

A regular meteor entering the atmosphere wouldn't enter and land in seconds. And I thought Pain was controlling gravity, not working against it (I could be wrong though).

dk why you brought up Madara since I was only making his case earlier for the deep space argument. If they were truly that far out in space where the earth's gravity was not acting upon them it and they were all moving along their own trajectories at different speeds it would be harder to bring all those asteroids (since they would be big enough to qualify) together at once than Fujitora with his three tiny meteors in comparison.

Madara got his astroids from inside the atmosphere (you can tell because they weren't burning, which meteors do when they enter the atmosphere) where Fujitora actually did get his meteors from space (you can tell because they are burning).

@roronuffy: The point isn't whether he wanted to destroy Dressrosa the point is that he was able to keep it from destroying Dressrosa. If what some of you guys are saying about the initial distance of the meteor was true than the power it would take to keep it to such minimal damage is easily continent busting level if not more. Since WB wasn't even that strong there is no way SaBo stands up to that

Sabo could be stronger than White Beard. He has essentially no feats. Also, Oda probably doesn't think about where the meteors come from and how hard the impact would realistically be.

@whoisme: Nobody is using telepathy, they are all manipulating gravity. It is easier to manipulate the gravity of a smaller mass moving toward a bigger mass since the bigger mass' gravity is also acting upon it. It is harder to manipulate the gravity of a large mass away from another large mass since both masses have gravity pulling them toward each other. Not only are you manipulating much bigger gravitational fields but you are also trying to oppose two forces that are attracted to each other. If you don't understand the magnet example then I can't explain it any better and we'll just have to disagree.

As to Sabo being stronger than WB that is blasphemous but I understand the point you are trying to make. Clearly Oda did not think through the logistics of some of his characters abilities, just like when the CP9 girl dodged the lightning, and probably just drew it because it looked cool without considering what a meteor that size would do to a tiny island. Unfortunately this is a battle between two different universes so we have to compare the physics as seen and try to rationalize them as best we can.

We had a Logia that blitzed characters before at lightning travel speed an arc ago .Plus, we are constantly confirmed that it's actual lightning and calcs in the Post Time-Skip that makes sense with it.There's also calcs that put the meteor going at those speeds at a low end be island level DC.It pretty much confirms what we already know in that Prime-Chinjao is Admiral Level because he got beaten by Vice-Admiral Garp(And at that time Garp was recommended to be Admiral Level).The only problem is the lack of DC from the meteor though that could be explained by Doflamingo's strings massively reducing the KE of the meteors.

We already know that the speed of the meteors moves way more faster than mostly any meteor in the HST.

Guys, Guys, Read my OP again, Gravity effects TBB in round 2.

@sondeatheater: The point isn't whether characters can move faster than lightning it's that Oda had such a weak character do it so early.

Also nobody is arguing the meteors speed once it's in the atmosphere, we were debating the distance it was from the planet initially and how fast it would have to go to reach the atmosphere in such a short amount of time. Also how much power it would take to slow it down once it reached the atmosphere to the velocity it had when it impacted the planet. You are bringing up things nobody is debating.

@roronuffy: I guess Oda has gotten better at art now, so that bulls*** like that doesn't happen.

Bmp

@roronuffy: Nobody is using telepathy, they are all manipulating gravity

I agree. I was pointing out that manipulating gravity is not like telekinesis

It is easier to manipulate the gravity of a smaller mass moving toward a bigger mass since the bigger mass' gravity is also acting upon it. It is harder to manipulate the gravity of a large mass away from another large mass since both masses have gravity pulling them toward each other

I could be wrong, by I thought we humans can't manipulate gravity, nor have the tools to figure out what it would be like if we could manipulate gravity. So my question is, where is your evidence, either in OP or real life, that it is more difficult to manipulate stronger gravity?

Not only are you manipulating much bigger gravitational fields but you are also trying to oppose two forces that are attracted to each other. If you don't understand the magnet example then I can't explain it any better and we'll just have to disagree.

I understand your magnet example, I'm the one who is apparently failing at explaining his point. So if you are manipulating gravity to lift a rock, it's not like when you're holding up the rock with your hand. Your hand is resisting the force of gravity on the rock. If you are manipulating gravity, the force that would usually be pulling the rock down is now holding it up. It's not opposing any other force, because it is the force that would usually be holding things down.

As to Sabo being stronger than WB that is blasphemous

Lol

but I understand the point you are trying to make. Clearly Oda did not think through the logistics of some of his characters abilities, just like when the CP9 girl dodged the lightning, and probably just drew it because it looked cool without considering what a meteor that size would do to a tiny island.

True.

Unfortunately this is a battle between two different universes so we have to compare the physics as seen and try to rationalize them as best we can.

My point is that you should measure feats by what the character does, not what should happen as a result. Many characters can run faster than sound and still talk to each other as they move. Writers don't follow science most of the time, so you need to judge it by what is being portrayed, not what would happen in real life as a result. Fujitora has been shown to pull a meteor down from space (we know because it is burning) and cause an impact much less than a meteor that size would cause. You can't deny the distance that the meteor has to move in a few instants because it doesn't make the impact that it would, because this is fiction.

@full123: Clearly his work has improved since the beginning but I think in such a long series you're bound to make some errors. Even JK Rowling had to have a person who's only job was to find continuity errors. Oda messed up with things like Shanks getting his arm bitten off by such a small Sea King or the CP9 girl thinking and reacting at over Mach 289. Hopefully he'll do like Kishimoto did with his Byakugan plot hole and fix it eventually. The Shanks thing at least because I don't really care about the CP9 thing since it only matters in forum debates.

@roronuffy: Well, I mean, you can't really blame him, I mean, when he started the series, Oda probably kept Shanks as some random chip, that he was gonna play away in the first chapters, so he gave him a fitting goodbye. But then he realized that he could make Shanks one of the strongest pirates and a major plot point, so he only did that after he lost his arm. Also, regarding CP9 issue,I don't really care since Oda seems to have the speed pretty well handled now after the timeskip, so just let that go. And regarding the debate about gravity, I said that Fujitora's gravity would effect his TBB in round 2, read the OP again. Even if it actually doesn't, it will do in this battle's round 2.

@full123: By TBB you mean tailed beast ball, right? Can you tell me how you thought this was an even fight? I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't see it and I would like to try and get inside your head.

@whoisme: I said that in round 2, Fuji's gravity would effect the Tailed Beast Ball, regardless if it actually does or not.

@whoisme: Ok so we're at least agreed that obviously writers do things to look cool without thinking about physics or probability. As for feats and in regards to the original post, and why we're even talking about gravity, I was saying that Bee has better feats against gravity manipulators and has proven that his most powerful attack (Bijuu bomb) is both more powerful than Fujitora's meteor and also not affected by gravity manipulation. Therefor IMO Bee > Fujitora in round 2.

As to my proof that one character's gravity manipulation is more powerful than anothers I have nothing conclusive but I try to use some logic here. Smaller objects have smaller/ weaker gravitational fields and since the meteor is falling towards the earth I would assume less power would be needed since their gravitational fields would already be attracted to each other and pulling in the direction he wants them to go. Pain however is manipulating a larger object with a presumably larger/stronger gravitational field away from the earth and it's gravitational pull. Even if he is only manipulating the meteor the earths gravity is still opposing him and moving it opposed to the directions gravitational fields naturally pull seems harder IMO. Because of this I believe it would be harder to manipulate the gravitational fields in Pain's case.

@roronuffy: Stop bringing up the fact that TBB isn't effected by gravity, because in the OP I said that Fuji could use his gravity on TBB, otherwise Fuji gets stomped. It does not matter if the actual TBB would be effected by Fuji's gravity or not, the TBB will be effected in this battle because I had to make this fair.