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#1 Posted by pooty (12016 posts) - - Show Bio

I want YOU to put this list in order from best to worst. H2H only. Everybody is peak human. No special powers etc. This is not about feats or what everybody else thinks. This is what your gut says. If you go by feats, then use that. You don't have to defend your choices. Just put them in order by how you feel. Here are the people you can use. This is my own personal order from best to worst. Rearrange them to your liking. And before you ask: No I am not high or drunk......currently. lol

Champion

Gamora

Shang Chi

Iron Fist

Wonder Woman

Black Panther

Batman

Cap America

Deathstroke

Cassandra Cain

Champion
Gamora
Shang Chi
Iron Fist
Wonder Woman
Black Panther
Batman
Cap-Steve
Deathstroke
#2 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice idea, I'll get back to you.

#3 Posted by jashro44 (26523 posts) - - Show Bio

In terms of skill?
Casandra Cain
iron fist
batman
shang chi
black panther (only for now will he rank so low...)
captain america
gamora
wonder woman
champion

#4 Posted by pooty (12016 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: The person i picked as best, you put at worst. The person I put as worst you put as best. What was your criteria for making your list?

#5 Edited by Fluke-buddha (644 posts) - - Show Bio

Champion

Shang Chi

Iron Fist

Deathstroke

Batman

Cap America

Gamora

Cassandra Cain

Wonder Woman

Black Panther

#6 Posted by jashro44 (26523 posts) - - Show Bio
@pooty said:

@jashro44: The person i picked as best, you put at worst. The person I put as worst you put as best. What was your criteria for making your list?

Casandra cain is the best and the lower down are the worst.
#7 Posted by AweSam (7391 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everybody

#8 Posted by pooty (12016 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Why did you put her first? She is by FAR the youngest and the others had many teachers. I thought she just had two. I'm not arguing your pick just wondering how the youngest was the best. I mean she is ALOT younger than the others who have trained for much longer.

#9 Posted by Saren (25492 posts) - - Show Bio

Champion is supposedly the best but has precious little to back that up with.

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#10 Posted by jashro44 (26523 posts) - - Show Bio
@pooty said:

@jashro44: Why did you put her first? She is by FAR the youngest and the others had many teachers. I thought she just had two. I'm not arguing your pick just wondering how the youngest was the best. I mean she is ALOT younger than the others who have trained for much longer.

She has the best skill feats.
#11 Posted by The_Mayhem_Theory (1057 posts) - - Show Bio

Shang Chi

Iron Fist

Wonder Woman

Captain America

Batman

Deathstroke

Black Panther

Cassandra Cain

Champion

Gamora

#12 Posted by Void_Paladin (901 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Cassandra Cain

2. The rest.

#13 Posted by Sovereign Vance (735 posts) - - Show Bio

The Champion shouldn't even be on that list.He doesn't even have better fighting skill feats than Nick Fury.

#14 Posted by pooty (12016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Void_Paladin: You are the second person to pick Cassandra. I don't see her much. What has she done that puts her first in your book? I can't believe that she has outdone Bats and Deathstroke at such a young age. Amazing

#15 Posted by Vance Astro (91554 posts) - - Show Bio

BASED ON FEATS..... 
 
1.Iron Fist 
2.Cassandra Cain 
3.Batman 
4.Black Panther 
5.Captain America 
6.Deathstroke 
7.Shang Chi
8.Wonder Woman
9.Gamora
10.The Champion

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#16 Posted by Bright_Blade (238 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman (The best h2h fighter in DC. She can keep up with Superman despite him being much stronger/faster/durable than her though sheer skill.)

Champion (The greatest h2h specialist in Marvel, but doesn't have the feats to put him on Diana's level.)

Gamora (The most deadly female h2h specialist in Marvel.)

Iron Fist (You don't get the title of IF for no reason.)

Batman ( one shotted Lady Jobber.)

Cassandra Cain (Almost lost to Lady Jobber.)

Black Panther (Did he forget he knew how to fight when he was depowered? )

Cap America ( Was loosing against a depowered Thor...need I say more.)

Deathstroke ( If I had enhanced strength/speed/reaction time complete with a healing factor I'd look great compared to human level characters too.)

Shang Chi (Mr. Featless himself.)

#17 Posted by Vance Astro (91554 posts) - - Show Bio
@Bright_Blade said:

Wonder Woman (The best h2h fighter in DC. She can keep up with Superman despite him being much stronger/faster/durable than her though sheer skill.)

Champion (The greatest h2h specialist in Marvel, but doesn't have the feats to put him on Diana's level.)

Gamora (The most deadly female h2h specialist in Marvel.)

Iron Fist (You don't get the title of IF for no reason.)

Batman ( one shotted Lady Jobber.)

Cassandra Cain (Almost lost to Lady Jobber.)

Black Panther (Did he forget he knew how to fight when he was depowered? )

Cap America ( Was loosing against a depowered Thor...need I say more.)

Deathstroke ( If I had enhanced strength/speed/reaction time complete with a healing factor I'd look great compared to human level characters too.)

Shang Chi (Mr. Featless himself.)

Wonder Woman can keep up with Superman because of her magical weapons.
Also I love how you bumped Cassandra below Batman because she almost lost to Shiva...and Cap is under Black Panther because of a one time showing....
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#18 Posted by Void_Paladin (901 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: Normally, I would put Cassandra and Deathstroke as nearly even, but since you said no powers Cassandra has the clear advantage here. If you want to know about Cassandra I can give you some stuff of the top of my head.

Training: She was trained by the league of assassins since she could walk. Over the course of her life she has been trained by Bronze Tiger, Shiva (although that was mostly to get her body-reading ability back.) and Batman. She also has an unnaturally high pain threshold due to her father playing many games with her when she was young. One of witch was called "two for flinching" He played this with a gun. He would shoot her and if she flinched from the hit, he shot her two more times.

Body-Reading: One of her most noteworthy abilities is the ability to tell what you're going to do before you do it. Her father never allowed anyone to speak to her. Instead he made sure her first and only language was that of the body. Many martial artist can predict their opponents movements to a certain extent. However Cassandra does not simply predict moves, she understands from the way your eye twitched what your next five attacks are going to be. To stress this, Batman gave her an entire plan filled with details, although she didn't understand words at the time, she knew the entire plan due to the way he moved while talking.

Stats: Cassandra can punch hard enough to shatter a human skull. Her speed is her greatest physical asset. Cassandra consistently moves faster than the eye can follow. She's not only a bullet-timer, she can dodge at point-blank range after the bullet has left the gun.

Feats: Dancing around Batman's attacks in a sparring match. Defeating Ravager. Defeating Lady Shiva twice ( it could be argued that the first fight was a stalemate, however the second was a decisive victory.)

If you have any questions, just ask.

#19 Posted by Saren (25492 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bright_Blade said:

Wonder Woman (The best h2h fighter in DC. She can keep up with Superman despite him being much stronger/faster/durable than her though sheer skill.)

Champion (The greatest h2h specialist in Marvel, but doesn't have the feats to put him on Diana's level.)

Gamora (The most deadly female h2h specialist in Marvel.)

Iron Fist (You don't get the title of IF for no reason.)

Batman ( one shotted Lady Jobber.)

Cassandra Cain (Almost lost to Lady Jobber.)

Black Panther (Did he forget he knew how to fight when he was depowered? )

Cap America ( Was loosing against a depowered Thor...need I say more.)

Deathstroke ( If I had enhanced strength/speed/reaction time complete with a healing factor I'd look great compared to human level characters too.)

Shang Chi (Mr. Featless himself.)

.....

Moderator
#20 Edited by Donovan Montgomery (5516 posts) - - Show Bio

Champion

Gamora/ Wonder Woman

Cassandra Cain

Iron Fist

Cap America

Black Panther/ Batman

Shang Chi

Deathstroke
 

Decided half by rep. half by personal knowledge.

Deathstroke I agree with Bright_Blade, I'm not sure if he would be as good with "normal" stats. 

Iron Fist to Shang Chi is more personal ranking based on my knowledge/interpretation of the characters. 

#21 Posted by JediXMan (31598 posts) - - Show Bio

How is this a battle?

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#22 Posted by Nefarious (23775 posts) - - Show Bio

I was thinking the same thing 55 minutes ago.

#23 Posted by pooty (12016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bright_Blade: @Donovan Montgomery: @CitizenBane: All of you put Champion high because of Reputation with no feats but put Shang Chi low who has reputation but little feats. I put them both high. Why the difference?

#24 Posted by _slim_ (14850 posts) - - Show Bio

Based off of rep (or what they should be on paper.)
 

  • Champion
  • Gamora
  • Wonder Woman
  • Iron Fist
  • Cassandra Cain
  • Batman
  • Shang-Chi
  • Black Panther
  • Captain America
  • Deathstroke
#25 Edited by Blacktimus (162 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Fist

Shang-Chi

Cassandra Cain

Batman

Champion

Wonder Woman

Gamora

Death Stroke

Black Panther

Captain America

#26 Posted by pooty (12016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blacktimus: as i said in the OP: any decision you make is great. but i have to ask. Why is Iron Fist and Shang Chi so high above black panther and cap america? Is this based off feats or personal feelings ect

#27 Posted by Blacktimus (162 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: Mine is more of a personal bias more than anything, since they're all great fighters in their own right. But my thing is this: Iron Fist before getting the power of the Iron Fist killed Shou-Lao, which is a dragon. That is just a very grand feat for a human. And as for Shang-Chi, Madam Web went to him to instruct him on training Peter in the way of martial arts. All the martial artist in Marvel and she went to him. That just said something to me.

#28 Edited by sandiego008 (3280 posts) - - Show Bio

Based on gut like you wanted .. don't make me prove this as I can't come even close to proving any of this and would run away from an argument ...

#1 Champion -- supposedly the best

Wonder Woman -- No real feats .. just trained w/ amazons for so damn long feel she should know how to fight better than most.

Shang Chi -- talked about like he is the man ... but like champion has no real feats.

Iron Fist

Cassandra Cain

Cap America = Batman

Deathstroke = Black Panther (feel death stroke would lose a step being depowered)

Gamora

Edit: I wish you woulda put ares (marvel) in this thread as he is like champion / shang chi ... should be a good fighter but has no feats.

#29 Posted by pooty (12016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blacktimus: understood.

@sandiego008: i was gonna put herc and thor. didn't even think of ares

#30 Posted by difficlus (10632 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

BASED ON FEATS..... 1.Iron Fist 2.Cassandra Cain 3.Batman 4.Black Panther 5.Captain America 6.Deathstroke 7.Shang Chi8.Wonder Woman9.Gamora10.The Champion

I agree but would place Gamora a bit higher

#31 Edited by Billdevil (433 posts) - - Show Bio

I generally think that those who quest to be great fighters are exposed to more unique move and those obsessed with never being in a position where they can’t win fights end up with the most advantage. The other option is having that variation of fighting skills brought to the individual to build them as the best fighter.

With this in mind I generally see fighters like this, and mind you this is very general:

Questers / obsessed with martial knowledge

Government trained / elite -multiple teachers

Multiple Disciplines / Multiple Training grounds

Multiple Disciplines / elite teacher

Single Discipline / Great depth / elite teacher

Multiple Discipline / some depth

Single Discipline / some depth

What they can pick up.

Etc.

Aside from this there are X-Factors like White Tiger has an amulet that gives her martial arts knowledge and Elektra and Daredevil are Adepts, which I assume, means they have a innate ability to fight on top of other things. I don’t know Champion very well thus I’m leaving him off.

Etc.

With this in mind, here are my ranks.

1. Batman / Cap America

2. Cassandra Cain / Iron Fist

3. Gamora

4. Black Panther / Shang Chi

5. Deathstroke

6. Wonder Woman

#32 Posted by Vance Astro (91554 posts) - - Show Bio
@difficlus said:

@Vance Astro said:

BASED ON FEATS..... 1.Iron Fist 2.Cassandra Cain 3.Batman 4.Black Panther 5.Captain America 6.Deathstroke 7.Shang Chi8.Wonder Woman9.Gamora10.The Champion

I agree but would place Gamora a bit higher

I only won't because I haven't really seen anything from her that was that impressive. The only skilled opponent for her in space would be Mantis and I don't think they've ever fought. Most of her skill feats have shown against characters that are simply more powerful than her and of course she would out skill them because they suck. To be honest though I don't think you can really put some of these characters over each other. As far as i'm concerned Wonder Woman is no better than Gamora. They would be on the same level.They have the same type of feats.Black Panther & Captain America would be on the same level, I don't actually think Black Panther is any better.If they fought 10 times I believe half those fights would be stalemates.
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#33 Posted by Bright_Blade (238 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: Don't know. Maybe I'm just upset that Marvel won't let me see what he can do so I'm taking it out on the character in this thread.

@Vance Astro: What feat does IF have without using chi that puts him above Wonder Woman?

#34 Posted by Saren (25492 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@Bright_Blade: @Donovan Montgomery: @CitizenBane: All of you put Champion high because of Reputation with no feats but put Shang Chi low who has reputation but little feats. I put them both high. Why the difference?

I believe neither Champion nor Shang Chi have feats that merit their reputation.

Moderator
#35 Posted by jashro44 (26523 posts) - - Show Bio
@pooty said:

@Void_Paladin: You are the second person to pick Cassandra. I don't see her much. What has she done that puts her first in your book? I can't believe that she has outdone Bats and Deathstroke at such a young age. Amazing

She had the upper hand on deathstroke in there first fight...Its in the Casandra Cain respect thread on this site if you want to check it out. Its not just that but her skill has helped her fight people who outclass her in strength and speed.
#36 Posted by Vance Astro (91554 posts) - - Show Bio
@Bright_Blade said:

@Vance Astro: What feat does IF have without using chi that puts him above Wonder Woman?

Chi doesn't have anything to do with skill. Iron Fist isn't better than Wonder Woman because of his use of chi. Everyone he fights isn't a physical mismatch.
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#37 Posted by sandiego008 (3280 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: I "in a perfect world" would put champion and ares equal ... but ares has zero feats ... just stating this as I really wish ares was in here as he is god of war w/ zero friggin feats and it pisses me off.

#38 Posted by Vance Astro (91554 posts) - - Show Bio
@sandiego008 said:

@pooty: I "in a perfect world" would put champion and ares equal ... but ares has zero feats ... just stating this as I really wish ares was in here as he is god of war w/ zero friggin feats and it pisses me off.

Ares has feats they just aren't that impressive in comparison to other skilled fighters.
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#39 Posted by sandiego008 (3280 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@Bright_Blade said:

@Vance Astro: What feat does IF have without using chi that puts him above Wonder Woman?

Chi doesn't have anything to do with skill. Iron Fist isn't better than Wonder Woman because of his use of chi. Everyone he fights isn't a physical mismatch.

I'm utter confused ... you give IF top skills because he is mismatched a lot ... yet claim that chi has no part in it yet ... chi allows him to ...

"By focusing his chi into his hand, he can tap the power of Shou-Lao and thus rendering his fists superhumanly powerful and recently, Rand learned different ways to apply the chi energies to perform fantastic feats such as generating light from his fists, create hypnotic waves from his fingers, extend the power of Shou-Lao throughout his body, hand-held and projectile weapons. Rand has also learned the technique of using Shou-Lao's chi to heal himself or anyone of any injuries or illness. And after acquiring the Book of the Iron Fist, Rand's knowledge in K'un-Lun martial arts and in wielding the power of the Iron Fist enhanced a hundred folds."

I'm not doubting how great he is ... by any means ... but to disregard chi as being a factor at all on his victories in his mis-matches ... which looks like you did there is ridiculous. Unless I misread (which I could've as I am not really sure what you are saying) .. I think you are wrong on assuming chi is a small part on why IF wins.

#40 Posted by difficlus (10632 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@difficlus said:

@Vance Astro said:

BASED ON FEATS..... 1.Iron Fist 2.Cassandra Cain 3.Batman 4.Black Panther 5.Captain America 6.Deathstroke 7.Shang Chi8.Wonder Woman9.Gamora10.The Champion

I agree but would place Gamora a bit higher

I only won't because I haven't really seen anything from her that was that impressive. The only skilled opponent for her in space would be Mantis and I don't think they've ever fought. Most of her skill feats have shown against characters that are simply more powerful than her and of course she would out skill them because they suck. To be honest though I don't think you can really put some of these characters over each other. As far as i'm concerned Wonder Woman is no better than Gamora. They would be on the same level.They have the same type of feats.Black Panther & Captain America would be on the same level, I don't actually think Black Panther is any better.If they fought 10 times I believe half those fights would be stalemates.

You know Wonder Woman has in fact beaten Batman in h2h more often than not too.

#41 Edited by Vance Astro (91554 posts) - - Show Bio
@sandiego008 said:

I'm utter confused ... you give IF top skills because he is mismatched a lot ... yet claim that chi has no part in it yet ... chi allows him to ...

"By focusing his chi into his hand, he can tap the power of Shou-Lao and thus rendering his fists superhumanly powerful and recently, Rand learned different ways to apply the chi energies to perform fantastic feats such as generating light from his fists, create hypnotic waves from his fingers, extend the power of Shou-Lao throughout his body, hand-held and projectile weapons. Rand has also learned the technique of using Shou-Lao's chi to heal himself or anyone of any injuries or illness. And after acquiring the Book of the Iron Fist, Rand's knowledge in K'un-Lun martial arts and in wielding the power of the Iron Fist enhanced a hundred folds."

I'm not doubting how great he is ... by any means ... but to disregard chi as being a factor at all on his victories in his mis-matches ... which looks like you did there is ridiculous. Unless I misread (which I could've as I am not really sure what you are saying) .. I think you are wrong on assuming chi is a small part on why IF wins.

You missed my point entirely.What I was saying was whenever it comes to characters like Iron Fist or even Wolverine and someone suggests that they are not just skilled by even more so than other characters, there's always someone who goes "What has he done without chi" or "What has he done without healing factor or claws"? What people need to realize is that every character that has ever had an ongoing has had characters created for that said ongoing that can actually compete with the hero. So no matter what attributes (chi in this case) he has that help him in combat, you have to remember that there are characters that he's fought that are almost identical in skill and strength.Nowhere in my post did I say chi plays a small part of anything. I said chi has nothing to do with skill. You can't say that all of his fights were won because of chi and not also because of his skill because THAT would be false. 
 
On the same note. I don't understand how people can give Diana props for beating Superman who isn't very skilled and clearly only did so because of is weakness to magic but then people choose to ignore Iron Fist's feats against characters who are actually skilled because he uses chi? That makes sense?
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#42 Posted by Void_Paladin (901 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro: I agree that IF would still be extremely good without his chi. However, it does more than just augment his physical stats, without it Danny is cut off from using specific moves which are a part of his fighting style. It's true that when people hear "without chi" they have a tendency to underrate his skills. However, while I agree that IF would still rank high without chi, I don't think there is enough evidence that he would still rank no. 1.

Lets go a different route. I'm not saying IF is unskilled without chi, I'm saying that chi is a part of his skill set. Locking him off from it is like locking Cassandra off from body-reading, she would still be extremely skilled without it but she would NOT have beaten Shiva.

#43 Posted by Vance Astro (91554 posts) - - Show Bio
@Void_Paladin said:

@Vance Astro: I agree that IF would still be extremely good without his chi. However, it does more than just augment his physical stats, without it Danny is cut off from using specific moves which are a part of his fighting style. It's true that when people hear "without chi" they have a tendency to underrate his skills. However, while I agree that IF would still rank high without chi, I don't think there is enough evidence that he would still rank no. 1.

Lets go a different route. I'm not saying IF is unskilled without chi, I'm saying that chi is a part of his skill set. Locking him off from it is like locking Cassandra off from body-reading, she would still be extremely skilled without it but she would NOT have beaten Shiva.

I know it augments more than his physical stats but what it augments wasn't my point. The point I was making is that for every attributes these characters have that people think should be excluded when only speaking of h2h combat, those characters have enemies that have the same attributes or better ones. 
 
As far as Cassandra Cain, doesn't Shiva also know the move reading technique? Could have sworn that's where she got it from in the first place.
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#44 Posted by Morpheus_ (29696 posts) - - Show Bio
Cassandra Cain is nigh useless without body reading. In fact, if she doesn't have it here, it's very likely she ranks last.
#45 Edited by Void_Paladin (901 posts) - - Show Bio

@Morpheus_ said:

Cassandra Cain is nigh useless without body reading. In fact, if she doesn't have it here, it's very likely she ranks last.

At first, maybe, however when she lost it Batman taught her defense. Her offence was still fine, she was simply distraught over missing something she had her entire life. Cassandra's speed/offensive skill would remain unaffected. She also does very well against Slade, despite body-reading not being a factor against him. I highly doubt she would rank last.

@Vance Astro:

I know it augments more than his physical stats but what it augments wasn't my point. The point I was making is that for every attributes these characters have that people think should be excluded when only speaking of h2h combat, those characters have enemies that have the same attributes or better ones.
As far as Cassandra Cain, doesn't Shiva also know the move reading technique? Could have sworn that's where she got it from in the first place

True enough. It's not like they don't fight people on their level.

Shiva does posses it. However that's not where she got it from. David Cain raised her without ever speaking with her forcing her brain to learn the language of the body rather than a spoken one.

#46 Edited by Morpheus_ (29696 posts) - - Show Bio
@Void_Paladin said:

@Morpheus_ said:

Cassandra Cain is nigh useless without body reading. In fact, if she doesn't have it here, it's very likely she ranks last.

At first, maybe, however when she lost it Batman taught her defense. Her offence was still fine, she was simply distraught over missing something she had her entire life. Cassandra's speed/offensive skill would remain unaffected. She also does very well against Slade, despite not being able to body-reading not being a factor against him. I highly doubt she would rank last.



Batman taught her defense, sure. And also deemed her incapable of wearing the cape and cowl, which is why she asked Shiva to help her regain the ability. When she asked how long it would take to become as good as he is, his answer was a decade, maybe more. Doesn't sound so hot in comparison to what she is with the ability. By saying she'd place last, I mean it's very likely she'd get pulped by everyone in a fight.
 
As for fighting well with Deathstroke, it depends on the writer. In her series she did fight well in spite of her inability to read him but he was also toying with her, thus making the fight difficult to interpret. With other writers her ability to read him or not does not factor in with their writing.
#47 Posted by Void_Paladin (901 posts) - - Show Bio

@Morpheus_:

Batman taught her defense, sure. And also deemed her incapable of wearing the cape and cowl, which is why she asked Shiva to help her regain the ability. When she asked how long it would take to become as good as he is, his answer was a decade, maybe more. Doesn't sound so hot in comparison to what she is with the ability.

Bruce is a pretty harsh guy. Not to mention that even without the ability, she's still faster than him, has an arguably higher pain tolerance, along with comparable offence.

By saying she'd place last, I mean it's very likely she'd get pulped by everyone in a fight.

I doubt that.

As for fighting well with Deathstroke, it depends on the writer. In her series she did fight well in spite of her inability to read him but he was also toying with her, thus making the fight difficult to interpret. With other writers her ability to read him or not does not factor in with their writing.

I think Deathstroke's ability to control his body to the point where he can't be read is pretty well established. He did the same thing to Rose, although that makes a bit less sense.

My point is that she does very well against Slade despite her ability not working on him, while he still had access to his won enhanced stats/reflexes. Even without her body-reading I'd place Cassandra above most of the featless, reputation based, fighters in this thread.

#48 Posted by Morpheus_ (29696 posts) - - Show Bio
@Void_Paladin said:

Bruce is a pretty harsh guy. Not to mention that even without the ability, she's still faster than him, has an arguably higher pain tolerance, along with comparable offence.

He was not being harsh. Her safety was his primary objective, and he was being sincere. Also, for someone who is faster than him, he sure didn't have issues hitting and flooring her repeatedly  during their training, and there is no saying Cass was holding back either, because once she regained the ability she immediately showed it off.
 

I doubt that.


 
I don't. I'm merely going off what she did (or, rather, what she didn't do) without her body reading.
 


I think Deathstroke's ability to control his body to the point where he can't be read is pretty well established. He did the same thing to Rose, although that makes a bit less sense.


 
It surely is, but that is not my point. The ability may very well be well established, but not all writers take it into account while writing him, much like they don't always take into account Shiva's body reading or Cassandra's. Chuck Dixon had Olliver Queen lands hits on Cassie and he teared her cape with an arrow all the while she can dodge bullets. Writers don't always factor everything everyone has ever written into their writing, every single time.
 

My point is that she does very well against Slade despite her ability not working on him, while he still had access to his won enhanced stats/reflexes. Even without her body-reading I'd place Cassandra above most of the featless, reputation based, fighters in this thread.


 
Technically, perhaps, but without her body reading she isn't quite brimming with feats either.


#49 Posted by Lance Uppercut (22979 posts) - - Show Bio

@Void_Paladin said:

@Vance Astro: I agree that IF would still be extremely good without his chi. However, it does more than just augment his physical stats, without it Danny is cut off from using specific moves which are a part of his fighting style. It's true that when people hear "without chi" they have a tendency to underrate his skills. However, while I agree that IF would still rank high without chi, I don't think there is enough evidence that he would still rank no. 1.

Lets go a different route. I'm not saying IF is unskilled without chi, I'm saying that chi is a part of his skill set. Locking him off from it is like locking Cassandra off from body-reading, she would still be extremely skilled without it but she would NOT have beaten Shiva.

The only real move it prohibits is.... the iron fist

#50 Posted by Vance Astro (91554 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lance Uppercut said:

@Void_Paladin said:

@Vance Astro: I agree that IF would still be extremely good without his chi. However, it does more than just augment his physical stats, without it Danny is cut off from using specific moves which are a part of his fighting style. It's true that when people hear "without chi" they have a tendency to underrate his skills. However, while I agree that IF would still rank high without chi, I don't think there is enough evidence that he would still rank no. 1.

Lets go a different route. I'm not saying IF is unskilled without chi, I'm saying that chi is a part of his skill set. Locking him off from it is like locking Cassandra off from body-reading, she would still be extremely skilled without it but she would NOT have beaten Shiva.

The only real move it prohibits is.... the iron fist

And the Hypnotic Fist.
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