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#201 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (4030 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01 said:

The speed force is a dimension. It chose Wally West as it's avatar, the same as Cyttorak uses Juggernaut, Phoenix uses Jean, etc. Wally "mainlines" from the Speed force, his connection can not be broken due to this despite several attempts to severe the connection. A power that resides in every dimension, every era, every universe is not going to simply be overpowered by even a cosmic being. It's like saying anyone could use the Phoenix force if they wanted to tap into that power. The problem is that the Speedforce is being compared to the Power Cosmic, and since Doctor Doom has made Norrin his bi*ch twice, the assumption is that the same thing could be done to the speedforce. Clever but nothing supports that claim, and people have tried.

First, the speed force is an extra-dimensional energy force; it doesn't "choose" anyone as its avatar. In fact, there are many characters besides the Flash's who rely on the speed force for their speed abilities.

second, do you have scans showing people trying to break Wally's connection to the speed force but failing? Specifically, characters who are high-tier energy manipulators trying but failing to do so?

Third, there have been instances where even other Flash's have been cut off from the speed force. Bart Allen once absorbed the entire speed force during Infinite Crisis in order to fight Superboy-Prime effectively cutting everybody else off from it. Jay Garrick, for example, couldn't use the speed force and had to rely on his metagene powers for speed. And the negative speed force can also negate speed force energy.

Fourth, even if SS couldn't break the connection between Wally and the speed force, as a high-tier energy manipulator he can still negate the speed force energy the same way Captain Cold did by using a field or manipulating the energy itself to make it useless. Like I said, the versatility of the Power Cosmic is quite vast and there are a lot of options available to SS to nullify the energy of the speed force.

Fifth, nobody cares about comparing the speed force to the Power Cosmic. Nobody here claimed that Norrin could steal the speed force, I only claimed Norrin could manipulate it.

First, the speedforce chose Wally as it's output. He then goes on to explain he "mainlines" from it now. I don't have the scan but in the same scan Wally is talking to Linda about his new powers

Second, nope I guess since I don't have the scans anymore it never happened right?

Third, Flashes have been cut off by other Flashes. Wally has done it. Bart Allen is a Flash who absorbed the energy? That has nothing to do with Norrin.

Fourth, He couldn't. Surfers never done anything like that to beings even close to utilizing power that's in every era, dimension and universe... He wouldn't be able to react or think quick enough to utilize his power even if it could work, which you've provided no evidence to support.

Fifth, you're suggesting that the power cosmic gives Norrin the ability to manipulate the speed force. I'm saying he's no more capable of manipulating it than he would be the Phoenix Force or Odin power or Cyttorak's realm's power.... ETC.

I think your idea is a clever take on it. But to agree with it I would have to say that Norrin, who NEVER uses speed in battle (With it I believe he could have whooped Thanos or Thor), would outreact the fastest character in comics not named Zoom, then be immune to the speed steal (he wouldn't be) and would then have to fight someone he could barely see. Cosmic awareness, energy manipulation, ability to amplify his strength to any degree necessary, his supreme power wouldn't matter if he couldn't utilize it. He's been physically knocked around by Thor and Thanos. Ergo, Wally could and should be able to deal with him. IMO.

#202 Edited by MonsterStomp (20373 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: Has SS done anything like what Cold does? Has he EVER done anything like what Cold has done? I don't see SS going to Cold for some pointers.

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#203 Edited by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01:

I think you should go back and read my responses to other people, because the debate has progressed quite a bit since the last time I responded to you.

Also, I think your argument about the speed force is rather weak in general. Norrin can't manipulate the speed force because it happens to exist in a lot of places? Why would the mere fact that the speed force exists in a lot of places determine how powerful it is? That doesn't make sense. The Phoenix Force, Odin Force and Cyttorak's power are all stronger than the speed force not because of where they happen to reside but because people using them have better feats. To control those types of energies you need to at least be at skyfather level and above.

In any event, the speed force is only the source of Wally's power, but what Wally is actually manipulating is kinetic energy. And there's nothing special about kinetic energy. Norrin would have no problem turning all the kinetic energy that Wally attempts to use or manipulate into harmless light.

#204 Posted by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: Has SS done anything like what Cold does? Has he EVER done anything like what Cold has done? I don't see SS going to Cold for some pointers.

He doesn't need to go to Cold for pointers. To quote the OP:

All know everything about each other

#205 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (4030 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanwithatan01:

I think you should go back and read my responses to other people, because the debate has progressed quite a bit since the last time I responded to you.

Also, I think your argument about the speed force is rather weak in general. Norrin can't manipulate the speed force because it happens to exist in a lot of places? Why would the mere fact that the speed force exists in a lot of places determine how powerful it is? That doesn't make sense. The Phoenix Force, Odin Force and Cyttorak's power are all stronger than the speed force not because of where they happen to reside but because people using them have better feats. To control those types of energies you need to at least be at skyfather level and above.

In any event, the speed force is only the source of Wally's power, but what Wally is actually manipulating is kinetic energy. And there's nothing special about kinetic energy. Norrin would have no problem turning all the kinetic energy that Wally attempts to use or manipulate into harmless light.

Yeah lol I just saw the progression.

Norrin has no feats of anything like that. AND PF OF > SF proof?

I think you're confused on what the speed force is, and has been retconned like 3 times.

#206 Edited by MonsterStomp (20373 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@uberhikari: Has SS done anything like what Cold does? Has he EVER done anything like what Cold has done? I don't see SS going to Cold for some pointers.

He doesn't need to go to Cold for pointers. To quote the OP:

All know everything about each other

Again. SS hasn't done anything like what Cold does. Everything does not mean on Flash's rogues.

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#209 Posted by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio
#210 Edited by DanM (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@hardcorefakes:

However, considering SS does have a minute of prep he could very easily put up anti-speedblitz shields and then wipe out Wally with a massive supernova-level blast.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say all along, no need to muddy things up when this right here sums it up and ends it.

#211 Posted by MonsterStomp (20373 posts) - - Show Bio
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#212 Posted by Dredeuced (5835 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@dredeuced: I feel like this debate will circle around for all eternity.

You can blame that on Dredeuced. The dude just can't accept his character losing sometimes.

I have accepted Wally losing fights about as often as I argue him winning it. People will quite frequently put him in a spite thread (there's like 50 Wally vs Galactus threads since I joined the forums), for instance. I only argue Wally's odds when there are odds to argue.

#213 Posted by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp:

Ok enough of that, please show the scan of Wally traveling 13 trillion times the speed of light.

#214 Edited by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@danm said:

@monsterstomp: One minute of prep is all a blood lusted SS would need to amp and raise his defenses, effectively shielding himself by the power cosmic for the blitz in which he knows is coming, unless you can show proof of the Flash penetrating the defenses of somebody on the level of a blood lusted Surfer then there is a really good chance that he can't, unless you can show proof of the Flash effectively fighting off matter/energy manipulation by somebody on the level of a blood lusted surfer, there is a very good chance he can't and will lose this fight.

What shield is SS putting up? Are you making sh*t up or has SS actually done it? Also, SS won't be allowed to put his shields up prior to the fight even starting, as soon as the fight starts, Flash will blitz him before his brain tells his body what to do! Even if he somehow got his "shields" up, Wally can phase through that and still blitz him. Give me proof of SS shielding abilities.

You and your buddies are the only ones who think Flash would have a chance to win this fight, anywhere else and you would get laughed at. Please stop making the Vine look bad, I know you love Flash but gosh..

#215 Edited by MonsterStomp (20373 posts) - - Show Bio

@moonman78: Dude, I haven't seen one Silver Surfer scan proving anything anyone has been saying thus far. So don't accuse me of being a fanboy. Now I believe @dredeuced calculated the approximate speed Wally was running, if not, you work it out. Here's the formular: Speed = Distance / Time

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#216 Edited by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp:

That is ridiculous, utterly ridiculous, if you went 13 trillion times the speed of light on earth it would be faster, much much much much much faster than being instantanious anywhere on earth, the only way to possibly go that fast would be in outer space, even DC comics wouldn't put anything that ridiculous on panel, and they didn't. Look he can do what he just did going slightly over the speed of light dreduced's math is horrible. Even superman stated u can only go so fast on earth without killing everybody, and if he went 13 trillion times the speed of light.... Come on man just think about how fast that is, think about what u are saying when you say that. Unless they say on panel he went that fast u can't calculate it as such, and that is an awful awful calculation

#217 Posted by MonsterStomp (20373 posts) - - Show Bio

@moonman78: The speed force protects Wally and everyone he comes into contact with (if he wants). I don't care if you think it's ridiculous, I showed you the scan.

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#218 Posted by TJSH96 (875 posts) - - Show Bio

If the team start on the ground, Flash could kill every-single member of that team before they could even move a millimeter.

If the team starts in the air, the team wins easily.

End of discussion.

#219 Posted by DanM (167 posts) - - Show Bio
@danm said:

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@hardcorefakes:

However, considering SS does have a minute of prep he could very easily put up anti-speedblitz shields and then wipe out Wally with a massive supernova-level blast.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say all along, no need to muddy things up when this right here sums it up and ends it.

Again this about ends this debate, given this scenario we have a blood lusted SS with full knowledge of Wally and prep time to take to the air and shield himself from the speed blitz, where he could then blast him to bits via a massive supernova type cosmic blast. Norrin has created Black holes and destroyed planets with his power so don't even bother arguing that Flash could come out alive or bother saying he could phase thru the power cosmic powered shield as he has never shown able to do so against a energy manipulator of this caliber, high end durability feats of Surfer include easily tanking shots from the Hulk, taking Black Bolts whisper and taking a beating from Galactus, the latter being far worse than anything Wally could dish out. SS blood lusted, fighting to the best of his ability, given both absolute knowledge of his opponent and prep time to counter his biggest obstacle is just to much here.

#220 Posted by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

Smdh

#221 Posted by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

Can anyone name a time when flash has beaten Superman in a solo fight?

#222 Posted by mjolnirson (1625 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor, Supes, or SS solos

#223 Edited by CaptnMcDeadpool (975 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

@monsterstomp said:

@uberhikari:

1. Wally can phase through SS's shields. Won't matter since he'll get to SS faster than SS can think to put up shields.

2. The Speed Force is from a foreign universe. It's not in the cosmic awareness level. It's out of SS's reach. It may be an energy source, but its clearly one that can't easily be exploited. It's not an automatic power set for SS. He can't exploit a persons power origin in the first zeptosecond of the fight. By the time SS figures out what he has to do, the team is out. SS just doesn't have the reaction to exploit the speed force before Wally can cover a mile.

3. Captain Cold usually sets the scene before Wally or Barry get there giving Cold the leg in their encounters. SS doesn't have that benefit here. The OP didn't say anything about toying with the battlefield prior to the fight.

First, have you actually read New 52 Flash? Captain Cold didn't have shields when he fought Barry Allen, he essentially created a field around himself that nullifies Barry's powers. Norrin doesn't need shields. As a high-tier energy manipulator, all he would have to do is create a field around himself (and any member of the team) that would nullify Flash's speed force abilities. Second, the team gets 1 minute of prep time. Norrin could use that prep time to put a field around himself and every other team member before the fight started.

True. Even without prep, I don't see Flash winning. Matter of fact, Surfer would solo this fight. Below, Wally demonstrates he and "Barry" (actually, Thawne) have difficulty vibrating through a force field that changes its vibrational frequency:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Surfer would know of this weakness because....well, the speed force is an extra dimensional energy source:

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Additionally, the Surfer's force fields work just fine on a Bannerless Hulk:

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Third, if the speed force can't be "easily exploited," then tell me how Captain Cold was able to whoop Barry's ass by doing just that. And Norrin is infinitely more powerful than Captain Cold.

Indeed. Rogues (the core group, not Zoom II), are not nearly in the same category as the Silver Surfer. It would be silly of anyone to make a comparison between the two.

Moreover, on what grounds do you claim that SS can't manipulate speed force energy? The Power Cosmic literally gives Norrin the ability to manipulate all forms of energy; it doesn't matter if it's foreign to him or not. If it's energy, he can manipulate it. (Again, I point to when he channeled the energies of the Big Crunch to kill Tenebrous and Aegis is Annihilation.) And just like I said to Dredeuced, this is a ridiculous double standard. Generally when characters don't have feats showing a specific kind of durability we assume they don't possess said durability. Flash has NO feats of resisting high-tier energy manipulation. None whatsoever.

This is also true. He has combined the power cosmic with the mystical on a few occasions, notably with Odin and also with Dr Strange. He manipulated the energies of the crunch, he has absorbed the laser blasts of an armada of fighter ships, absorbed the energy and used it to re-ignite a dying star. If we allow crossovers, he has absorbed Oan energy as well.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Furthermore, the speed force is the source of Wally's power, but what he's actually manipulating is kinetic energy. And kinetic energy is not unique at all. What's stopping SS from turning all the kinetic energy that Wally uses into harmless light? Or thermal energy? Or lethal radiation?

Well...I might disagree on this small point. The speed source is THE source of Wally's power (and most of the DC speedsters...Zoom II actually controls the flow of time around himself and is not included in this group. Could the Surfer conceivably manipulate the speed force? Given his ability to combine his powers with even mystical energies and absorb and reflect seeming infinite amounts of it? I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. I don't know about the manipulating of the kinetic energy though.

Fourth, SS doesn't have to "toy with the battlefield." All he would need to do is put the field around himself and everybody else on the team.

Sure. But the thing is, I don't think he would need to. Surfer, in my opinion is just as fast, not only in travel speed, but in reaction speed as well. Honestly, I think the Surfer solo's this one quite easily.

#224 Posted by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio
#225 Posted by DanM (167 posts) - - Show Bio

@moonman78:

Exactly, the thing is the Flash losing one on one to WW is completely in character, it's not a low showing or having anything to do with any PIS, just where the Flash is as far as the pecking order is concerned. People really have lost it with him here, read a few Flash comics and then lets see if you still want to debate him winning over the likes of SS/Odin level characters.

#226 Edited by nitenovanavium (66 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to say, that from what i know of the speed force, he cannot kill the team, but he can export them to another dimension and win by ring out. That's the ONLY way i can see him winning.

#227 Edited by Dredeuced (5835 posts) - - Show Bio

@danm said:

@moonman78:

Exactly, the thing is the Flash losing one on one to WW is completely in character, it's not a low showing or having anything to do with any PIS, just where the Flash is as far as the pecking order is concerned. People really have lost it with him here, read a few Flash comics and then lets see if you still want to debate him winning over the likes of SS/Odin level characters.

I guarantee you I have read more Flash comics than you.

Tell me when Wonder Woman beat Flash in a fight, by the by?

Also, the fact that you list SS and Odin in the same tier is highly dubious.

#228 Posted by Saren (25078 posts) - - Show Bio

Are people seriously copy-pasting scans and arguments from Malevolent1 now? Really?

Moderator
#229 Posted by Lvenger (21190 posts) - - Show Bio
#230 Posted by MonsterStomp (20373 posts) - - Show Bio

Are people seriously copy-pasting scans and arguments from Malevolent1 now? Really?

Who's this?

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#231 Edited by Saren (25078 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

Are people seriously copy-pasting scans and arguments from Malevolent1 now? Really?

Who's this?

Someone who isn't here for good reason.

Moderator
#232 Edited by Dratini1331 (7040 posts) - - Show Bio
#233 Posted by Dratini1331 (7040 posts) - - Show Bio

@moonman78: Dude, I haven't seen one Silver Surfer scan proving anything anyone has been saying thus far. So don't accuse me of being a fanboy. Now I believe @dredeuced calculated the approximate speed Wally was running, if not, you work it out. Here's the formular: Speed = Distance / Time

I saw that as a joke on reddit/membase. He goes 13 trillion times light speed, it's actually pretty hilarious.

#234 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5315 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty sure DC didn't mean for the Flash to go 13 trillion times the speed of light, that's obviously a mistake on the writers part. He specifically says in that scan "near light travel" not 13 trillion times the speed of light. The Flash wanking on this site his hilarious.

#235 Edited by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

13 trillion times the speed if light? If anybody can go that fast it would be surfer, and I don't even think he is that fast, I don't even think runner is that fast, I mean think about it if u were this fast u could be instantanious through most of the universe. So that is totat nonsense.and DC writers would never put something like that on panel probably not even in the Silver Age, so whoever calculated that u got it wrong.

#236 Posted by Dratini1331 (7040 posts) - - Show Bio

@lone_wolf_and_cub: Better than some characters on other sites. I've seen people put flash below characters like spiderman before, and totally just go nuts about other random characters.

#237 Edited by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5315 posts) - - Show Bio

@dratini1331: No doubt. Flash is definitely powerful I just don't think he's up in Surfers level. But yeah I love Spiderman but he would get destroyed by Flash.

#238 Posted by TheDarkDaredevil (554 posts) - - Show Bio

The team can take him

#239 Posted by Batman242 (4862 posts) - - Show Bio

@moonman78 said:

@dredeuced:

No he didn't, the only ones he actually fought were flash and ww, and ww was blinded but she still beat him. That said anybody one this team could solo Wally, most could probably one shot him if they really tried.

Sinestro Corps special. He beat the tar out of Superman, Hal, and Wonder Woman because they chased him down to try to get info about where Sinestro had disappeared to because they were in the evil group together before. It was a completely one sided beating before he left and they could do nothing to stop him.

No one but Surfer has a chance against Wally.

Do you have the scans of that or know anywhere that they are?

#240 Posted by Dratini1331 (7040 posts) - - Show Bio

@lone_wolf_and_cub: Yep, I concur. I feel like all flash threads should really just have like 3 questions in them, "Can he live without his brain? Can he do things while he can't move/can he not get his speed stolen? Is he immune to physical attacks?" If the characters passes those tests, he beats the flash pretty handily, and can deal with flash if 2/3 of them are positive answers. Dunno though, that's just my opinion.

#241 Posted by Jonez120 (5148 posts) - - Show Bio

In that one minute of prep they fly into the sky. When it starts theyll just stay up there and use they're ranged attacks until they hit him. Thor-throws Mjolnir. Superman-Heat Vision. GL- His usual green lantern beams. I know they will never hit him but he will get tired and when that happens he gets a SS beatdown.

#242 Posted by Dredeuced (5835 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonez120 said:

In that one minute of prep they fly into the sky. When it starts theyll just stay up there and use they're ranged attacks until they hit him. Thor-throws Mjolnir. Superman-Heat Vision. GL- His usual green lantern beams. I know they will never hit him but he will get tired and when that happens he gets a SS beatdown.

Wally can run on air. He can also run into space. Woop.

#243 Posted by CheeseSticks (2588 posts) - - Show Bio

Silver Surfer bloodlusted solo

#244 Posted by Dredeuced (5835 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@moonman78 said:

@dredeuced:

No he didn't, the only ones he actually fought were flash and ww, and ww was blinded but she still beat him. That said anybody one this team could solo Wally, most could probably one shot him if they really tried.

Sinestro Corps special. He beat the tar out of Superman, Hal, and Wonder Woman because they chased him down to try to get info about where Sinestro had disappeared to because they were in the evil group together before. It was a completely one sided beating before he left and they could do nothing to stop him.

No one but Surfer has a chance against Wally.

Do you have the scans of that or know anywhere that they are?

Here you go, pal:

Handling them pretty effortlessly while simultaneously slowing himself down so he could lecture them, like Zoom is oft to do.

#245 Posted by Batman242 (4862 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Thanks. I don't know, but I felt as if Zolomon was holding back in that scan. Bet he was. And that argument with WW blindfolded, isn't that PIS?

@lone_wolf_and_cub: Yep, I concur. I feel like all flash threads should really just have like 3 questions in them, "Can he live without his brain? Can he do things while he can't move/can he not get his speed stolen? Is he immune to physical attacks?" If the characters passes those tests, he beats the flash pretty handily, and can deal with flash if 2/3 of them are positive answers. Dunno though, that's just my opinion.

LOL I just laughed too loud reading this.

#246 Posted by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

@hardcorefakes said:

@monsterstomp said:

@dredeuced: I feel like this debate will circle around for all eternity.

You can blame that on Dredeuced. The dude just can't accept his character losing sometimes.

I have accepted Wally losing fights about as often as I argue him winning it. People will quite frequently put him in a spite thread (there's like 50 Wally vs Galactus threads since I joined the forums), for instance. I only argue Wally's odds when there are odds to argue.

The problem is is that there is no middle ground.

Wally vs Wolverine. Wally stomps.

Wally vs Silver Surfer. Wally stomps.

Wally vs Galactus (the fact that this was even typed makes my head hurt). Galactus stomps.

Where is that tier of character that is stronger than Silver Surfer, yet weaker than Galcatus, that can beat him?

#247 Edited by Dredeuced (5835 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: I dunno, it's kinda PIS. People as slow as Powergirl have ducked and avoided her Lasso pretty effortlessly before when she wasn't blinded. I guess the good guys have to win sometimes -- Wally beats Cheetah (not much of a stretch) after getting hurt, Wonder Woman beats Zoom after getting hurt, everyone goes back to their respective justice/doom league thing and plot the next stupid encounter. It makes more sense with Zoom considering he intentionally slows himself down, much like Wally, so he can try to "reason" with the heroes to make them see his side of things to make them better. That's one of Zoom's more beneficiary character traits when it comes to his losses.

I mean he was clearly holding back to some degree cuz Batman wasn't dead and this guy was destroying giant buildings and entire city blocks when he fought Wally without breaking a sweat.

#248 Posted by Dratini1331 (7040 posts) - - Show Bio

13 trillion times the speed if light? If anybody can go that fast it would be surfer, and I don't even think he is that fast, I don't even think runner is that fast, I mean think about it if u were this fast u could be instantanious through most of the universe. So that is totat nonsense.and DC writers would never put something like that on panel probably not even in the Silver Age, so whoever calculated that u got it wrong.

Flash succeeded in beating instantaneous teleportation and turned on every radio on the planet in some crazy short amount of time. Also, the math done is not wrong, the writer just does bad math =P

http://www.comicvine.com/wally-west/4005-23879/forums/wally-wests-top-speed-best-feats-598821/

Flash is faster than the runner by a wide margin.

#249 Posted by hardcorefakes (691 posts) - - Show Bio

Are people seriously copy-pasting scans and arguments from Malevolent1 now? Really?

Citizen with his usual irrelevant drivel that mean nothing to the discussion. What a surprise.

#250 Posted by Dredeuced (5835 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

Are people seriously copy-pasting scans and arguments from Malevolent1 now? Really?

Citizen with his usual irrelevant drivel that mean nothing to the discussion. What a surprise.

"His usual" Dude you haven't been around long enough to know what the usual is. Which banned user are you, again?