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#101 Edited by Dredeuced (5293 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp:

Dude that is rediculous if you read any flash comics. Post a scan of him doing that stuff to some well noted high level characters in a solo fight.... Right because there are no scan because that stuff only works on his enemies like the rogues or zoom, it's not going to work on a person that's on supermans level, or at least not good enough to get him a win

Yeah you're right Flash has never harmed someone who was really stron--

In this specific scan, the combined powers of everyone in Pre Crisis DC Earth could only put a single hole in Anti Monitor's armor before he defeated them. Wally completely destroyed his armor (while admittedly losing the fight). He has also clearly KO'd guys like Mongul and Martians in single hits when he doesn't hold back.

If Wally's truly fighting to the best of his abilities then I don't think there's an argument of whether or not he can harm Surfer. He can. The main question is if Surfer can kill Wally while he deals with the rest of the Justice League. In this scenario, Wally will almost certainly take out who he sees as the biggest threats -- Superman, GL, Wonder Woman. He has experience with them and he knows exactly how powerful they are and he has practically no knowledge on Thor or Surfer so it is unlikely he would go for them first. Surfer could possibly act in the time it takes for Flash to kill them, he could possibly not. I've had more than my fair share of tedious Flash vs Surfer debates so I'll avoid the meat of this thread, just chiming in to point out that Wally's best feats are literally never against his rogues, because he has never, ever had to hit his Rogues as hard as he can and he never would because his goal is not to atomize them.

#102 Posted by Perethorn (3212 posts) - - Show Bio

@heymanjack:

Here is SS fighting inside a black hole:

And he can easily withstand Plante Bursting attacks, but i don´t have the scan.

Hulk KO Silver Savage, a drastically depowered version of the Surfer. When Hulk punched a full powered SS, he laughed at it.

And as im concerned, Flash strongest attack is the IMP. The IMP only made a small crater not really a big deal, SS is capable of taking multiple IMP withoit trouble.

#103 Posted by heymanjack (716 posts) - - Show Bio

@perethorn: Actually Flash's punches at speed hits with the force of a white dwarf star (comic physics). I think it's the artists interpretation that made it that an IMP left a only a crater. Similar to how superman's punches are stronger than an explosion made by a bomb going off but usually a bomb going off is depicted as more devastating.

Plus flash can atomize him as well don't forget about that.

#104 Posted by Perethorn (3212 posts) - - Show Bio

@heymanjack:

I know that White Dwarf Stars are one of the most dense things in the universe, but i don´t know if that force is enough to wreck the Earth.

And, atomization does not work with the Surfer:

Flash could get drained.

#105 Posted by Petey_is_Spidey (2729 posts) - - Show Bio

@sync1 said:

@captnmcdeadpool: You are obviously just a fanboy. Please accept that fact Wally murders, and move on.

How can he speedblitz someone as fast, OR FASTER, than him(Silver Surfer)?

#106 Posted by heymanjack (716 posts) - - Show Bio

@sync1 said:

@captnmcdeadpool: You are obviously just a fanboy. Please accept that fact Wally murders, and move on.

How can he speedblitz someone as fast, OR FASTER, than him(Silver Surfer)?

Silver Surfer is not faster than the flash. Please read my scans a few posts back.

@heymanjack:

I know that White Dwarf Stars are one of the most dense things in the universe, but i don´t know if that force is enough to wreck the Earth.

And, atomization does not work with the Surfer:

Flash could get drained.

Someone counted the numbers and IMP is more than capable of planet busting and regarding that scan, hmmmm well that says alot of SS durability if he can live through being atomized.

#107 Posted by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

@sync1: @_black:

First, the idea that Flash could speed steal anybody is a no limits fallacy.

Second, Flash's speed steal is an ability he has because of the speed force, which is a type of energy. The problem is that Norrin is a high-tier energy manipulator. There's no guarantee that Wally could use an energy-based ability to harm or control Norrin at all. In Annihilation Surfer was creating singularities and channeling/manipulating enough energy to destroy Tenebrous and Aegis, who were even causing Galactus some problems. So, what you have is an energy-based ability vs a high tier energy manipulator. I think the versatility of the Power Cosmic + Norrin's mastery of the Power Cosmic + his Cosmic Awareness + bloodlust would be a considerable obstacle for even a bloodlusted Wally West.

#108 Posted by MonsterStomp (15315 posts) - - Show Bio

@sync1: @_black:

First, the idea that Flash could speed steal anybody is a no limits fallacy.

Second, Flash's speed steal is an ability he has because of the speed force, which is a type of energy. The problem is that Norrin is a high-tier energy manipulator. There's no guarantee that Wally could use an energy-based ability to harm or control Norrin at all. In Annihilation Surfer was creating singularities and channeling/manipulating enough energy to destroy Tenebrous and Aegis, who were even causing Galactus some problems. So, what you have is an energy-based ability vs a high tier energy manipulator. I think the versatility of the Power Cosmic + Norrin's mastery of the Power Cosmic + his Cosmic Awareness + bloodlust would be a considerable obstacle for even a bloodlusted Wally West.

Firstly, no. Wally can't steel from anyone, he hasn't stolen from Inertia or anyone with the negative speed force.

Secondly, Silver Surfer can't do anything to the speed force. Just like he can't make kryptonite. The force is foreign to him and no one has ever manipulated the speed force to my understanding.

#109 Edited by DanM (133 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp:

You have no idea what SS could do with the speed force, that force falls directly under his capabilities to manipulate given the power cosmic. The OP states all characters know everything about one another, he would have a understanding of the speed force given that scenario and he even has limited prep time before hand. Not to mention a entire team of powerhouses on his side that Wally would also have to deal with.

#110 Posted by DanM (133 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: The power cosmic is the ability to manipulate cosmic energy and any other form of energy, speed force = energy therefor SS should be able to manipulate it, make sense?

#111 Posted by MonsterStomp (15315 posts) - - Show Bio

@danm said:

@monsterstomp: The power cosmic is the ability to manipulate cosmic energy and any other form of energy, speed force = energy therefor SS should be able to manipulate it, make sense?

No. It doesn't make sense. Not when high end energy manipulators like Captain Atom haven't done anything to the speed force.

#112 Posted by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

@sync1: @_black:

First, the idea that Flash could speed steal anybody is a no limits fallacy.

Second, Flash's speed steal is an ability he has because of the speed force, which is a type of energy. The problem is that Norrin is a high-tier energy manipulator. There's no guarantee that Wally could use an energy-based ability to harm or control Norrin at all. In Annihilation Surfer was creating singularities and channeling/manipulating enough energy to destroy Tenebrous and Aegis, who were even causing Galactus some problems. So, what you have is an energy-based ability vs a high tier energy manipulator. I think the versatility of the Power Cosmic + Norrin's mastery of the Power Cosmic + his Cosmic Awareness + bloodlust would be a considerable obstacle for even a bloodlusted Wally West.

Firstly, no. Wally can't steel from anyone, he hasn't stolen from Inertia or anyone with the negative speed force.

Secondly, Silver Surfer can't do anything to the speed force. Just like he can't make kryptonite. The force is foreign to him and no one has ever manipulated the speed force to my understanding.

You clearly misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't say Wally could speed steal anybody, I said the idea that Wally can speed steal anybody is a no limits fallacy.

Second, on what grounds do you assert that Silver Surfer can't do anything to the speed force? Norrin is a high-tier energy manipulator: he could snap his fingers and cut off Wally's connection to the speed force or snap his fingers and divest Wally of speed force energy the same way he can drain the gamma radiation from Hulk.

As for whether or not SS can make kryptonite, it's irrelevant because we're talking about energy manipulation not matter manipulation. In any event, SS can manipulate matter on a sub-atomic level, so it's hard for me to see why he wouldn't be able to create kryptonite.

Moreover, it's also irrelevant if the speed force is foreign to SS. The Power Cosmic gives him the ability to manipulate any kind of energy, and with Cosmic Awareness even if the force was foreign to him he would immediately know what to do in order to manipulate it. Furthermore, just because no one has ever manipulated the speed force before doesn't mean that no one can; that's just fallacious reasoning. People in this thread keep treating the speed force as if it's some omnipotent energy source that can overcome anything. Captain Cold, who's much weaker than SS, has created cold fields that can basically stop Flash in his tracks by slowing down his molecules. If Captain Cold could do that to Flash imagine what a high-tier energy/matter manipulator could do.

#113 Posted by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

@danm said:

@monsterstomp: The power cosmic is the ability to manipulate cosmic energy and any other form of energy, speed force = energy therefor SS should be able to manipulate it, make sense?

No. It doesn't make sense. Not when high end energy manipulators like Captain Atom haven't done anything to the speed force.

Do you have scans of Captain Atom attempting to manipulate the speed force but failing to do so?

#114 Posted by MonsterStomp (15315 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@danm said:

@monsterstomp: The power cosmic is the ability to manipulate cosmic energy and any other form of energy, speed force = energy therefor SS should be able to manipulate it, make sense?

No. It doesn't make sense. Not when high end energy manipulators like Captain Atom haven't done anything to the speed force.

Do you have scans of Captain Atom attempting to manipulate the speed force but failing to do so?

I do not have scans of anyone doing anything to cut Wally off his powers. Do you?

#115 Posted by Moonman78 (1726 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok the flash scans were exactly what I said him fighting his own caliber of enemy like zoom, and so forth, he beat an inconsistent amazo with a lot if help and he broke the ams armor with a lot of interference he does not beat top tiers solo he just does not

#116 Posted by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

@monsterstomp said:

@danm said:

@monsterstomp: The power cosmic is the ability to manipulate cosmic energy and any other form of energy, speed force = energy therefor SS should be able to manipulate it, make sense?

No. It doesn't make sense. Not when high end energy manipulators like Captain Atom haven't done anything to the speed force.

Do you have scans of Captain Atom attempting to manipulate the speed force but failing to do so?

I do not have scans of anyone doing anything to cut Wally off his powers. Do you?

No. But my point is this: just because no one has ever cut Wally off from his powers doesn't mean that it can't happen.

For me, it boils down to this: Flash's powers are energy-based (speed force) and he's going up against somebody who possesses Cosmic Awareness and is a high-tier energy manipulator. The idea that Flash's powers are energy-based but that he's somehow immune to energy manipulation strikes me as suspect. I'm not saying SS would win because of this, but it does seem to give SS a significant advantage in this fight.

#117 Posted by Dratini1331 (6928 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: That's sort of pushing it. just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it couldn't is faulty reasoning because it hinges on something that requires your opposition to prove something untrue. Nothing is contradictory to the idea that wally can't be cut off as of yet, and we are not clairvoyant. We cannot claim that something in the future could potentially cut him off.

I agree with you, but that's bad reasoning for that specific part of the argument.

#118 Posted by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: That's sort of pushing it. just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it couldn't is faulty reasoning because it hinges on something that requires your opposition to prove something untrue. Nothing is contradictory to the idea that wally can't be cut off as of yet, and we are not clairvoyant. We cannot claim that something in the future could potentially cut him off.

I agree with you, but that's bad reasoning for that specific part of the argument.

You're confused. Just because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't happen is a true statement. It doesn't require my opponent to prove anything; it's a statement of fact. And this is true for anything predicated on empirical evidence. Just because scientists haven't observed light traveling 5 meters per second in air, doesn't mean it can't happen.

Now, if I said, just because no one has cut Wally off from the speed force doesn't mean it can't happen and, therefore, this means Wally can be cut off from the speed force, then that would be fallacious reasoning. But I didn't say that. I never used this line of reasoning as evidence for SS having the ability to cut Wally off from the speed force. And it's certainly legitimate to say that it's possible that something could cut Wally off from the speed force because...that's possible. What I used as evidence is the fact that Captain Cold, a character much less powerful than SS, has found ways to nullify The Flash's speed-force based abilities and/or slow him down. I also pointed out the fact that SS is a high-tier energy manipulator and possesses Cosmic Awareness.

#119 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (3436 posts) - - Show Bio

The speed force is a dimension. It chose Wally West as it's avatar, the same as Cyttorak uses Juggernaut, Phoenix uses Jean, etc. Wally "mainlines" from the Speed force, his connection can not be broken due to this despite several attempts to severe the connection. A power that resides in every dimension, every era, every universe is not going to simply be overpowered by even a cosmic being. It's like saying anyone could use the Phoenix force if they wanted to tap into that power. The problem is that the Speedforce is being compared to the Power Cosmic, and since Doctor Doom has made Norrin his bi*ch twice, the assumption is that the same thing could be done to the speedforce. Clever but nothing supports that claim, and people have tried.

#120 Posted by DanM (133 posts) - - Show Bio

@dratini1331: It's completely in character and in Norrins power set to be able to control any other form of energy, now the speed force is energy, SS matter/energy manipulation is tried and proven, there is no debating his skills there, it's left to the opposition to bring forth proof that Wally would be immune to this, if unable to do so we are left to believe that his energy would be manipulated just like everybody else's has

#121 Posted by Dratini1331 (6928 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: My apologies then

@danm: ?? I never said anything in regards to that, I don't recall to have at least... Also, isn't that a no limits fallacy, which is what people said in counter to the flash?

#122 Posted by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

The speed force is a dimension. It chose Wally West as it's avatar, the same as Cyttorak uses Juggernaut, Phoenix uses Jean, etc. Wally "mainlines" from the Speed force, his connection can not be broken due to this despite several attempts to severe the connection. A power that resides in every dimension, every era, every universe is not going to simply be overpowered by even a cosmic being. It's like saying anyone could use the Phoenix force if they wanted to tap into that power. The problem is that the Speedforce is being compared to the Power Cosmic, and since Doctor Doom has made Norrin his bi*ch twice, the assumption is that the same thing could be done to the speedforce. Clever but nothing supports that claim, and people have tried.

First, the speed force is an extra-dimensional energy force; it doesn't "choose" anyone as its avatar. In fact, there are many characters besides the Flash's who rely on the speed force for their speed abilities.

Second, do you have scans showing people trying to break Wally's connection to the speed force but failing? Specifically, characters who are high-tier energy manipulators trying but failing to do so?

Third, there have been instances where even other Flash's have been cut off from the speed force. Bart Allen once absorbed the entire speed force during Infinite Crisis in order to fight Superboy-Prime effectively cutting everybody else off from it. Jay Garrick, for example, couldn't use the speed force and had to rely on his metagene powers for speed. And the negative speed force can also negate speed force energy.

Fourth, even if SS couldn't break the connection between Wally and the speed force, as a high-tier energy manipulator he can still negate the speed force energy the same way Captain Cold did by using a field or manipulating the energy itself to make it useless. Like I said, the versatility of the Power Cosmic is quite vast and there are a lot of options available to SS to nullify the energy of the speed force.

Fifth, nobody cares about comparing the speed force to the Power Cosmic. Nobody here claimed that Norrin could steal the speed force, I only claimed Norrin could manipulate it.

#123 Posted by DarkRaiden (6429 posts) - - Show Bio

First, let's get things straight about Speed. Surfer has searched the entire planet in 1 second (about). Flashes FASTEST he's moved in comparison to this is when he fought Zoom (super amped) and circled the world 12 times in a planet. That means Flash gets at most 12 hits off before Surfer gets one of his and ends it. Also with the minute of prep, Surfer could start the fight buffed via Power cosmic and/or intangible.

#124 Posted by MonsterStomp (15315 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@uberhikari said:

@monsterstomp said:

@danm said:

@monsterstomp: The power cosmic is the ability to manipulate cosmic energy and any other form of energy, speed force = energy therefor SS should be able to manipulate it, make sense?

No. It doesn't make sense. Not when high end energy manipulators like Captain Atom haven't done anything to the speed force.

Do you have scans of Captain Atom attempting to manipulate the speed force but failing to do so?

I do not have scans of anyone doing anything to cut Wally off his powers. Do you?

No. But my point is this: just because no one has ever cut Wally off from his powers doesn't mean that it can't happen.

For me, it boils down to this: Flash's powers are energy-based (speed force) and he's going up against somebody who possesses Cosmic Awareness and is a high-tier energy manipulator. The idea that Flash's powers are energy-based but that he's somehow immune to energy manipulation strikes me as suspect. I'm not saying SS would win because of this, but it does seem to give SS a significant advantage in this fight.

Has SS cut anyone off from their power?

#125 Edited by DanM (133 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp:

He's completely cut the Hulk from his power, absorbed FireLords power and drained a duplicate of himself who is equal in power within seconds, so yes he has.

#126 Posted by MonsterStomp (15315 posts) - - Show Bio

@danm said:

@monsterstomp:

He's completely cut the Hulk from his power, absorbed FireLords power and drained a duplicate of himself who is equal in power within seconds, so yes he has.

I meant from a dimensional force.. Something that isn't easy to exploit, like magic or the speed force.. It's something one can't understand. SS can't physically absorb it or negate it. Energy is so damn versatile. Thanos beat SS to a pulp, physically. Energy has to be exerted to punch SS. I don't see SS absorbing that...

#127 Posted by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

@monsterstomp said:

@uberhikari said:

@monsterstomp said:

@danm said:

@monsterstomp: The power cosmic is the ability to manipulate cosmic energy and any other form of energy, speed force = energy therefor SS should be able to manipulate it, make sense?

No. It doesn't make sense. Not when high end energy manipulators like Captain Atom haven't done anything to the speed force.

Do you have scans of Captain Atom attempting to manipulate the speed force but failing to do so?

I do not have scans of anyone doing anything to cut Wally off his powers. Do you?

No. But my point is this: just because no one has ever cut Wally off from his powers doesn't mean that it can't happen.

For me, it boils down to this: Flash's powers are energy-based (speed force) and he's going up against somebody who possesses Cosmic Awareness and is a high-tier energy manipulator. The idea that Flash's powers are energy-based but that he's somehow immune to energy manipulation strikes me as suspect. I'm not saying SS would win because of this, but it does seem to give SS a significant advantage in this fight.

Has SS cut anyone off from their power?

Off the top of my head I can't remember a situation where Surfer was fighting someone who was powered by an external source of energy. But as long as there is energy--no matter what type of energy it is--he can drain it, absorb it, channel it, nullify it and transform it any way he likes. So, even if he couldn't cut Wally off from the speed force, I don't see why he couldn't do any of the aforementioned things to him.

#128 Posted by unBREAKable_Fs4 (1421 posts) - - Show Bio

As unreasonable as it sounds, Wally is fast enough to take out everyone before they can react. From the scans I've seen Flash has attosecond reaction. To put Flashes speed in more perspective, one second to the flash is 31.71 billion year....I honestly don't see how anyone will be able to do anything before he attacks them.

Anyways, Silver Surfer has shown absolutely blasphemous speeds, and ridiculous durability and energy manipulation, he has the potential to be a legit hindrance to the Flash.

#129 Posted by heymanjack (716 posts) - - Show Bio

First, let's get things straight about Speed. Surfer has searched the entire planet in 1 second (about). Flashes FASTEST he's moved in comparison to this is when he fought Zoom (super amped) and circled the world 12 times in a planet. That means Flash gets at most 12 hits off before Surfer gets one of his and ends it. Also with the minute of prep, Surfer could start the fight buffed via Power cosmic and/or intangible.

please look at the scans at page two. He beat INSTANTANEOUS TELEPORTATION FROM GALAXIES.

#130 Posted by heymanjack (716 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

@sync1: @_black:

First, the idea that Flash could speed steal anybody is a no limits fallacy.

Second, Flash's speed steal is an ability he has because of the speed force, which is a type of energy. The problem is that Norrin is a high-tier energy manipulator. There's no guarantee that Wally could use an energy-based ability to harm or control Norrin at all. In Annihilation Surfer was creating singularities and channeling/manipulating enough energy to destroy Tenebrous and Aegis, who were even causing Galactus some problems. So, what you have is an energy-based ability vs a high tier energy manipulator. I think the versatility of the Power Cosmic + Norrin's mastery of the Power Cosmic + his Cosmic Awareness + bloodlust would be a considerable obstacle for even a bloodlusted Wally West.

Firstly, no. Wally can't steel from anyone, he hasn't stolen from Inertia or anyone with the negative speed force.

Secondly, Silver Surfer can't do anything to the speed force. Just like he can't make kryptonite. The force is foreign to him and no one has ever manipulated the speed force to my understanding.

Huh?? Please look at scans I posted at page two please. He clearly stole Inertia's speed.

#131 Posted by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

First, let's get things straight about Speed. Surfer has searched the entire planet in 1 second (about). Flashes FASTEST he's moved in comparison to this is when he fought Zoom (super amped) and circled the world 12 times in a planet. That means Flash gets at most 12 hits off before Surfer gets one of his and ends it. Also with the minute of prep, Surfer could start the fight buffed via Power cosmic and/or intangible.

please look at the scans at page two. He beat INSTANTANEOUS TELEPORTATION FROM GALAXIES.

That wasn't regular Wally. His speed was amped via speed steal.

#132 Posted by Dredeuced (5293 posts) - - Show Bio

@sync1: @_black:

First, the idea that Flash could speed steal anybody is a no limits fallacy.

Second, Flash's speed steal is an ability he has because of the speed force, which is a type of energy. The problem is that Norrin is a high-tier energy manipulator. There's no guarantee that Wally could use an energy-based ability to harm or control Norrin at all. In Annihilation Surfer was creating singularities and channeling/manipulating enough energy to destroy Tenebrous and Aegis, who were even causing Galactus some problems. So, what you have is an energy-based ability vs a high tier energy manipulator. I think the versatility of the Power Cosmic + Norrin's mastery of the Power Cosmic + his Cosmic Awareness + bloodlust would be a considerable obstacle for even a bloodlusted Wally West.

Quasar has drained Surfer before and he effectively works the same way, only he channels his energy from another dimension through bands instead of just doing it naturally. Lots of people have, really.

#133 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari:

Has SS ever gone up against New Son?

Also if he can manipulate all energy how does Thanos regularly kill him via punching?

And how do characters like Quasar, X-Man, or Vulcan do anything to him?

#134 Edited by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio
@dredeuced said:

@uberhikari said:

@sync1: @_black:

First, the idea that Flash could speed steal anybody is a no limits fallacy.

Second, Flash's speed steal is an ability he has because of the speed force, which is a type of energy. The problem is that Norrin is a high-tier energy manipulator. There's no guarantee that Wally could use an energy-based ability to harm or control Norrin at all. In Annihilation Surfer was creating singularities and channeling/manipulating enough energy to destroy Tenebrous and Aegis, who were even causing Galactus some problems. So, what you have is an energy-based ability vs a high tier energy manipulator. I think the versatility of the Power Cosmic + Norrin's mastery of the Power Cosmic + his Cosmic Awareness + bloodlust would be a considerable obstacle for even a bloodlusted Wally West.

Quasar has drained Surfer before and he effectively works the same way, only he channels his energy from another dimension through bands instead of just doing it naturally. Lots of people have, really.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Plus, IIRC Quasar has never drained a blood lusted SS before. And going by feats Quasar shouldn't be able to really do anything to SS.

Has SS ever gone up against New Son?

Also if he can manipulate all energy how does Thanos regularly kill him via punching?

And how do characters like Quasar, X-Man, or Vulcan do anything to him?

I don't know who New Son is.

Punching =/= energy.

Vulcan is a special case. He's probably a better energy manipulator than SS. As for Quasar, I don't think he's ever fought a bloodlusted SS who's not holding back. I don't know anything about X-Man.

#135 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari:

Well there are few occasions where SS is bloodlusted in the same comic as Quasar, but Quadar draining him was sort of something SS couldn't really stop at all. Not sure how bloodlust would affect thatzz

#136 Posted by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari:

Well there are few occasions where SS is bloodlusted in the same comic as Quasar, but Quadar draining him was sort of something SS couldn't really stop at all. Not sure how bloodlust would affect thatzz

Sure it would. Silver Surfer is known to job around and not use his powers to their fullest extent in order not to hurt the people he's fighting, especially if the person he's fighting is a hero and/or good person. That's the main reason why that Black Panther arm bar scan exists, lol.

#137 Posted by Dredeuced (5293 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: Quasar once drained the collective power of his Annihilators teammates to shield them from a blast and Surfer had no inherent resistance to it -- they were quite clearly in a life or death situation, too, and Quasar did it fast enough that he had to apologize to the rest of the team for doing it without their permission. As I've said, Quasar's not the only guy to drain Surfer's energy before, it's just the most applicable one to me, because he did it faster than Surfer could realize.

#138 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (913 posts) - - Show Bio

@moonman78 said:

@monsterstomp:

Dude that is rediculous if you read any flash comics. Post a scan of him doing that stuff to some well noted high level characters in a solo fight.... Right because there are no scan because that stuff only works on his enemies like the rogues or zoom, it's not going to work on a person that's on supermans level, or at least not good enough to get him a win

Yeah you're right Flash has never harmed someone who was really stron--

In this specific scan, the combined powers of everyone in Pre Crisis DC Earth could only put a single hole in Anti Monitor's armor before he defeated them. Wally completely destroyed his armor (while admittedly losing the fight). He has also clearly KO'd guys like Mongul and Martians in single hits when he doesn't hold back.

If Wally's truly fighting to the best of his abilities then I don't think there's an argument of whether or not he can harm Surfer. He can. The main question is if Surfer can kill Wally while he deals with the rest of the Justice League. In this scenario, Wally will almost certainly take out who he sees as the biggest threats -- Superman, GL, Wonder Woman. He has experience with them and he knows exactly how powerful they are and he has practically no knowledge on Thor or Surfer so it is unlikely he would go for them first. Surfer could possibly act in the time it takes for Flash to kill them, he could possibly not. I've had more than my fair share of tedious Flash vs Surfer debates so I'll avoid the meat of this thread, just chiming in to point out that Wally's best feats are literally never against his rogues, because he has never, ever had to hit his Rogues as hard as he can and he never would because his goal is not to atomize them.

Ah...did you post the part where Wally first lent speed to the assembled JLA first, who proceeded to soften him up real nice...then Wally came in and finished him off? I'm sorry, Wally does not go around punking the Ant-Monitor. I chalk that up to PIS at it's worst.

#139 Posted by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: Quasar once drained the collective power of his Annihilators teammates to shield them from a blast and Surfer had no inherent resistance to it -- they were quite clearly in a life or death situation, too, and Quasar did it fast enough that he had to apologize to the rest of the team for doing it without their permission. As I've said, Quasar's not the only guy to drain Surfer's energy before, it's just the most applicable one to me, because he did it faster than Surfer could realize.

That wasn't even a combat situation. It wasn't even like SS and Quasar were fighting each other. It's very clear that Quasar doesn't have reaction speed on par with SS, if that's what you're trying to imply by saying he drained him before he realized it. Again, going by feats Quasar shouldn't really be able to do anything to SS, even a jobbing, pacifist SS. That whole arc was a little PIS-ish considering the fact that that one girl beat the whole Annihilators team while everyone was just standing around.

Plus, my overall argument makes sense. Other than high-tier energy manipulators there shouldn't be anybody who can drain SS, much less a blood-lusted SS. Who was the strongest energy manipulator Flash has ever speed stolen?

#140 Edited by CaptnMcDeadpool (913 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash is capable of Thousands of IMP in less than speedster can blink on a dude that's as tough as Superman.

I have never seen Wally throw thousands of IMP's. Ever.

Flash is capable of throwing IMP while hurt and standing still. Hits like a white dwarf star.


Hyperbole. Sentry says he has the strength of a million exploding suns. I have yet to see it. If he actually struck with that kind of force? DC earth would not still be here.

Flash is faster than instant teleportation. Look at the numbers.


First, this is a "trans-time feat", as the previous pages indicate. Additionally, he was still charged from the kinetic energy of the entire planet earth in addition to Krakkl and five of earth's faster superheroes. And that amounted to a time-travel feat. Something Wally has done on numerous occasions on his own. Grant Morrison actually undersold Wally on this occasion.

Flash can phase people's brains out and become intangible

Indeed, he can.

Flash can turn people into living statues (speed steal effect)

This is also true.

Flash in less than a few seconds was able to learn how to build a building and gather all materials needed to build it and actually build the building. Imagine what he could do in 5 minutes.

Yup. In fact he did this.

Flash can atomize people


Well, sort of. By phasing his molecules through the molecules of another solid object and transferring said vibrational frequency, he can cause said object to explode. He has, in fact, done this numerous times.

and finally

Hmmm....Flash #0...clearly says Barry can run near the speed of light. While he says it, Barry has yet to show it. I seem to remember said "atto second" resulting in him dodging a bullet. I tend to think of the below, therefore as more hyperbole.

#141 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool:

Wally West, not Barry Allen.

Why wouldn't he hit hard? He's one shot brings with superman level durability and then told them he could throw a million in a second.

#142 Posted by Dredeuced (5293 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

@uberhikari: Quasar once drained the collective power of his Annihilators teammates to shield them from a blast and Surfer had no inherent resistance to it -- they were quite clearly in a life or death situation, too, and Quasar did it fast enough that he had to apologize to the rest of the team for doing it without their permission. As I've said, Quasar's not the only guy to drain Surfer's energy before, it's just the most applicable one to me, because he did it faster than Surfer could realize.

That wasn't even a combat situation. It wasn't even like SS and Quasar were fighting each other. It's very clear that Quasar doesn't have reaction speed on par with SS, if that's what you're trying to imply by saying he drained him before he realized it. Again, going by feats Quasar shouldn't really be able to do anything to SS, even a jobbing, pacifist SS. That whole arc was a little PIS-ish considering the fact that that one girl beat the whole Annihilators team while everyone was just standing around.

Plus, my overall argument makes sense. Other than high-tier energy manipulators there shouldn't be anybody who can drain SS, much less a blood-lusted SS. Who was the strongest energy manipulator Flash has ever speed stolen?

Does everyone on DC Earth count?

Cuz he took all of their speed during the Human Race, which you even acknowledged. A specific person would be Amazo, I suppose. He's also stolen speed from magical sources like how Cheetah got hers from a god.

As to your earlier question about if someone ever tried to cut Wally off from the Speed Force -- Savitar did. He actually succeeded in cutting off every member of the Flash family from their Speed but couldn't do it to Wally because he was specifically more in tune to the Speed Force than anyone ever has been. '

I also don't get why you're no selling Quasar. That guy has decades of out of this world feats. Him draining SS is by no means PIS.

#143 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

Wally's been cut off more than once from the SF right?

Also writers differ on Barry vs Wally, Barry being the source of it, Wally being in tune with it etc...

#144 Edited by Dredeuced (5293 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

Wally's been cut off more than once from the SF right?

Also writers differ on Barry vs Wally, Barry being the source of it, Wally being in tune with it etc...

Not that I can remember.

Barry isn't the source of it anymore, by the by. I think DC Editorial realized how absolutely stupid it was and, 2 years after making that the case, completely reverted it to the old speed force.

#145 Edited by dondave (33537 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: Barry being the source of the Speed force only came about during Flash:Rebirth which was after alot the Flash stories mentioned here took place

Online
#146 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (913 posts) - - Show Bio

@perethorn:

Do you have any more scans of Surfer's durability? The first and second one are about surfer being on fire by the sun? While impressive, I think flash's multiple punches are stronger than that.

The sun contains 99.5% of the mass of our solar system. It is an enormous nuclear fusion reactor. That is being compared to the sun? I really don't see it.

The last scan, he wasn't even affected by the super-nova. Only the escaping gases catch the silver surfer. It would be nice if the actual explosion hit the surfer.

They did. Re-read the scan. The narration makes it clear that he felt the explosion.

The escaping gases "flinging" him are the result of the "indescribable impact".

A few people have knocked out SS before (hulk, off the top my head) Flash can too.

As much PIS as Flash getting tagged by Deathstroke. In SS 125, an enraged Hulk is seen striking him and stomping on his head repeatedly, while the Surfer tries to reason with him. I mean, if we are lowballing the Surfer, we also have to lowball Wally who has plenty of feats showing he can be cut, bones broken, etc...

#147 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool:

You do realize a white dwarf star is what our sun is going to turn into right?

#148 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (913 posts) - - Show Bio

@captnmcdeadpool:

Wally West, not Barry Allen.

Why wouldn't he hit hard? He's one shot brings with superman level durability and then told them he could throw a million in a second.

You mean as hard as an actual white dwarf star? I suppose we have to think about what the impact an actual white dwarf would do to the earth? I can remember a scan of Wonder Woman getting rocked by Wally and her comment was that he hit harder than Superman. And that is fine and dandy. What I have a problem with is comparisons being made to an actual white dwarf star. It's like Sentry having the power of a million exploding suns. It's baloney. Not that he doesn't hit hard...but it's hyperbole. Also, he has said he can throw that many in a second...but has never demonstrated. If we are basing a feat on narrative, then should already have been a demonstration of said narrative in terms of actual feats to back up. If he had done it, then said it? I wouldn't have a problem with it. Additionally, it goes against the whole principle of an IMP in the first place. An infinity mass punch occurs as he approaches light speed...not surpasses it. Einstein said mass closes in on infinity as it approaches light speed. This obviously could not be the case, if he could throw a million in a second because he would be well beyond the speed of light.

I don't have a problem with Wally as the most powerful member of the JLA (I give him the edge over MM because of his speed...)...but some of these comments and scans are frankly out of context.

#149 Posted by uberhikari (2299 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

@dredeuced said:

@uberhikari: Quasar once drained the collective power of his Annihilators teammates to shield them from a blast and Surfer had no inherent resistance to it -- they were quite clearly in a life or death situation, too, and Quasar did it fast enough that he had to apologize to the rest of the team for doing it without their permission. As I've said, Quasar's not the only guy to drain Surfer's energy before, it's just the most applicable one to me, because he did it faster than Surfer could realize.

That wasn't even a combat situation. It wasn't even like SS and Quasar were fighting each other. It's very clear that Quasar doesn't have reaction speed on par with SS, if that's what you're trying to imply by saying he drained him before he realized it. Again, going by feats Quasar shouldn't really be able to do anything to SS, even a jobbing, pacifist SS. That whole arc was a little PIS-ish considering the fact that that one girl beat the whole Annihilators team while everyone was just standing around.

Plus, my overall argument makes sense. Other than high-tier energy manipulators there shouldn't be anybody who can drain SS, much less a blood-lusted SS. Who was the strongest energy manipulator Flash has ever speed stolen?

Does everyone on DC Earth count?

Cuz he took all of their speed during the Human Race, which you even acknowledged. A specific person would be Amazo, I suppose. He's also stolen speed from magical sources like how Cheetah got hers from a god.

As to your earlier question about if someone ever tried to cut Wally off from the Speed Force -- Savitar did. He actually succeeded in cutting off every member of the Flash family from their Speed but couldn't do it to Wally because he was specifically more in tune to the Speed Force than anyone ever has been. '

I also don't get why you're no selling Quasar. That guy has decades of out of this world feats. Him draining SS is by no means PIS.

No, everyone on DC Earth doesn't count. What I need is a specific case where Wally was able to speed steal a high-tier energy manipulator in a fight. I'm really not sure why people are arguing against this so hard. Wally's abilities are based on energy (speed force) and SS is a high-tier energy manipulator. I'm not sure why people are finding it so difficult to accept the fact that SS could actually manipulate speed force energy, i.e., nullify its effects. I don't see anything inherent to Wally's powers that make him immune to energy manipulation.

Savitar is not an energy manipulator, so what were the direct circumstances surrounding his attempts to cut Wally off from the speed force?

As for no selling Quasar, alright, alright. But still, as an energy manipulator I wouldn't exactly put Flash on his level. Flash's abilities are broken, and when he's amped on the speed force he can become pretty powerful but he's not someone I would consider to be a high-tier energy manipulator.

#150 Edited by Dredeuced (5293 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari: Savitar was basically a guy who tapped into the Speed Force and learned to do nasty things with it. His primary power was literally manipulating kinetic energy to the point where he developed speed stealing -- ie robbing a target of all its kinetic energy and transferring it to whatever he pleases. His entire powerset was the ability to remove speed from speedsters and he couldn't do it to Wally. He's literally the prime example of a guy trying and failing to cut off Flash from the Speed Force.

Flash is not a high tier energy manipulator, per se -- but only because he doesn't manipulate multiple forms of energy. He is a very high tier kinetic energy manipulator. He can speed steal planets to stop them from hurtling through space and literally make constructs out of his control. SS can control lots of types of energy to a high degree, but I think it'd be folly to say he controls speed better than Flash.