#1401 Edited by SlimJ87D (10299 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave3 said:

@slimj87d said:

@thetruthnerds: @dondave3:

There is a thread on the New-52 versions of both. And I think I proved that Superman actually stands a chance due to Barry lacking experience in controlling his speed force aura. Extreme cold temperatures and extreme heat can harm him. Direct contact with extreme cold also slows him down. Superman has his arctic breath and heat vision.

Things can change though as new Barry is getting more powerful as his issues roll out. He can now speed force dump and controls your speed in the speed force.

Extreme cold doesn't necessarily stop him. The main reason it worked with Captain Cold the first time was that Barry was holding back because he thought if he used too much speed he'd send things into the past. Captain Cold's cold field didn't help him in the Bar in Keystone City

Barry didn't hold back that kind of way though. He had a device to measure when he used the speed force too much. It doesn't mean he had to limit how fast he had to move.

If he could have taken Cold out in 1 second he should have as he wouldn't have to use his powers for 10 minutes.

He also specifically says that he got slowed down when Cold caught his punch. It didn't stop him sure, but if barry is slowed down at all against Superman, lets not forge that Superman has super speed too.

Also, there hasn't been a hint of him having the Speed Force Aura in this series. The same series that allowed Wally to walk around in a Volcano area without getting harmed because it filtered out external atmospheres from his own.

Respond if you like, but lets not discuss this anymore in this topic. If you want, bump the other one.

Online
#1402 Edited by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave3 said:

@tim_drake4444: Superman would still lose to Bart or Jay. Granted their not as fast as Wally, they still have the ability to use speed steal as Jay demonstrated to Superman and Bart's punches during Infinite Crisis were enough to hurt Superboy Prime

Bart has not used Speed Steal except in an alternate future that gets prevented from happening. Jay, Savitar, Walter West, and Wally are the only ones to ever use Speed Steal (Hot Pursuit did something similar but it wasn't really speed steal).

@slimj87d said:

@thetruthnerds: @dondave3:

There is a thread on the New-52 versions of both. And I think I proved that Superman actually stands a chance due to Barry lacking experience in controlling his speed force aura. Extreme cold temperatures and extreme heat can harm him. Direct contact with extreme cold also slows him down. Superman has his arctic breath and heat vision.

Things can change though as new Barry is getting more powerful as his issues roll out. He can now speed force dump and controls your speed in the speed force.

edit -- woops you're talking about another thread. My mistake.

#1403 Posted by Suthnuh (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash wins. Here's why... Wally can steal Superman's speed. Wally can steal, transfer, and lend kinetic energy. Wally can use the Speed Force to rejuvinate himself. Wally can also approach the speed of light. Real physics... as objects approach the speed of light they gain greater density. At the speed of light the object has infinite density. This effectively provides Flash invulnerability, and if he hits something in that state it's destroyed... Kryptonian physique or not. Additionally, Wally can vibrate through an object when not at lightspeed. This transfers kinetic energy built up in Flash's natural friction shield. The object then explodes. Flash is faster than heat vision also. So there are several ways for Flash to win, and none for Superman... other than hitting Flash if he happens to be standing still. Barry Allen may have created the Speed Force, but Wally West mastered it.

#1404 Edited by KalKoratto93 (10 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman with a massive curb stomp

#1405 Edited by Ahwehota (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash could accelarate his muscle growth granting himself super strength,could he beat superman if he does this ?

#1406 Posted by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

@ahwehota said:

Flash could accelarate his muscle growth granting himself super strength,could he beat superman if he does this ?

He's never done that and he wouldn't need to to bet superman.

Also what the heck is with the three people with identical avatars in a row?

#1407 Edited by GrandSymbiote94 (11667 posts) - - Show Bio

Also what the heck is with the three people with identical avatars in a row?

I think it's the new default AV.

#1408 Posted by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

Also what the heck is with the three people with identical avatars in a row?

I think it's the new default AV.

Oh haha, RIP Comicvine Avatar Dude.

#1409 Edited by debeze (243 posts) - - Show Bio

87k views Lul

#1410 Posted by Bossmonster (2258 posts) - - Show Bio

The Flash

#1411 Posted by Z3RO180 (6618 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman

#1412 Edited by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@z3ro180 said:

Superman

How?

Flash via steal speed.

#1413 Posted by Z3RO180 (6618 posts) - - Show Bio

@Walzo Via Superman that's how

#1414 Edited by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@z3ro180:

You have nothing to back your statement.

#1415 Posted by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

@z3ro180 said:

@Walzo Via Superman that's how

Right here folks, the greatest argument anyone's ever seen.

#1416 Posted by Ahwehota (2 posts) - - Show Bio

I reckon flash should've won -_-

http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D7BD94-MJTS4&sa=U&ei=BBZkUY2VFcfw4QSQv4GgAQ&ved=0CAoQtwIwAA&usg=AFQjCNFJd_wzoZs8BdI0wwZbNCav5OxGTg

#1417 Posted by NightwingX (123 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash

#1418 Posted by GhostRavage (9178 posts) - - Show Bio

Loving this thread, Superman gets spanked. Speed steal its too much for the guy in speedos.

Finally no blitzing... :D!

#1419 Posted by xxxddd (3593 posts) - - Show Bio

#1420 Posted by Suthnuh (2 posts) - - Show Bio

@scarecrow4: Its not infinite mass. It should be referred to as infinite density.

Mass is the measure of the amount of matter in an object. Density is mass divided by volume. Its a physical property of the matter that makes up the mass. A shot-put and a baseball might be the same size, but their density of matter is very different.

As the speed of light is approached density is increased and the object becomes smaller (the space between atomic particles in the traveling object is compacted). At the speed of light density is infinite. So I think it's an IDP not IMP.

#1421 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio
#1422 Posted by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp: He's wrong though.

Relativistic mass

Einstein's junk, yo. Laymen's terms it's as speed increases closer to light speed, mass relativistically increases.

#1423 Edited by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: "Density is mass divided by volume. Its a physical property of the matter that makes up the mass". That was the confusing part I was refering to. I thought all matter has mass, matter doesn't make up mass. Could be me though lol.

#1424 Posted by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: "Density is mass divided by volume. Its a physical property of the matter that makes up the mass". That was the confusing part I was refering to. I thought all matter has mass, matter doesn't make up mass. Could be me though lol.

There are people who are greater geniuses than you and I who can't even begin to understand Einstein's relativity. The "mass increases as an object moves closer to the speed of light" thing is such an amazingly dumbed down statement from what relativity actually entails, I dunno. As far as it matters -- the faster Flash goes the harder his punches hit, simple as that, lol.

#1425 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash wins. Nothing Superman can do other than hope Flash slows down enough for Superman to react. Its Wally's fight to lose. Its ALL on Wally.

#1426 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: That makes sense. Any form of mass that accerlates packs a harder hit. I think the Infinite Mass Punch shouldn't be called Infinite Mass Punch lol. Unless there isn't a limit to Wally's speed. I havn't seen any scan where it says he's reached his limit.

#1427 Posted by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: That makes sense. Any form of mass that accerlates packs a harder hit. I think the Infinite Mass Punch shouldn't be called Infinite Mass Punch lol. Unless there isn't a limit to Wally's speed. I havn't seen any scan where it says he's reached his limit.

Wally has said he's reached his limit tons of times.

Usually followed directly by him surpassing said limit.

Comics!

#1428 Posted by MonsterStomp (19224 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Wally's word is unreliable! He's just a modest fella haha.

#1429 Posted by Raw_Material (3297 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm. New 52, maybe Flash. Any other continuity Superman wins.

#1430 Posted by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm. New 52, maybe Flash. Any other continuity Superman wins.

New 52 Flash is much weaker than Superman (he's even slower). Pre-52 Wally was the only version of Flash that was every more powerful than Superman.

#1431 Edited by Raw_Material (3297 posts) - - Show Bio
@dredeuced said:

@raw_material said:

Hmm. New 52, maybe Flash. Any other continuity Superman wins.

New 52 Flash is much weaker than Superman (he's even slower). Pre-52 Wally was the only version of Flash that was every more powerful than Superman.

Lol what?! Okay?? So Barry outrunning Darkseid's omega beam, while Superman couldn't does not prove that he's faster than Supes is (as in comparison to the speed of the omega beam). And of course Flash is weaker than Superman! That would be nutz if I said he wasn't! Superman, the one that could carry Earth's orbit for five days with apparantly unbreakable chains? That one? Yea I know the Superman your talking about. Flash does not possess superhuman strength, although he does exceed human peak strength level and might be considered to have superhuman-level strength. However, his strength does increases as he accelerates his speeds.

#1432 Posted by SpectresWrath01 (208 posts) - - Show Bio

@suthnuh said:

Flash wins. Here's why... Wally can steal Superman's speed. Wally can steal, transfer, and lend kinetic energy. Wally can use the Speed Force to rejuvinate himself. Wally can also approach the speed of light. Real physics... as objects approach the speed of light they gain greater density. At the speed of light the object has infinite density. This effectively provides Flash invulnerability, and if he hits something in that state it's destroyed... Kryptonian physique or not. Additionally, Wally can vibrate through an object when not at lightspeed. This transfers kinetic energy built up in Flash's natural friction shield. The object then explodes. Flash is faster than heat vision also. So there are several ways for Flash to win, and none for Superman... other than hitting Flash if he happens to be standing still. Barry Allen may have created the Speed Force, but Wally West mastered it.

Lol you cant add physics too Comics!!!!

The Laws of the Speed of Light are still unknown to some degree. It is Theory that anything with Mass can never achieve Light Speed because their Mass would grow Infinitely (as they Approach it!!). This does not mean their weight would be Infinity its just undefined. (Basically Mass would be insanely high) Even Light Speed has a Limit (Example: Light Energy which is weightless cannot escape a BlackHole and to our knowledge Light is the Fastest known thing in the cosmos).

Now..... As your speed increases your Mass will slow you down, never allowing you to achieve the Speed of Light. It is Theory that if Light speed can be achieved you would have to become energy itself or weightless to achieve it. However, you are correct about Force=Mass x Acceration. Basically, something with mass at high speeds has more force to it. Example. If I throw a Penny at you the impact is minor. But if I drop a penny off the Empire State Building the acceleration builds up speed and the mass of the penny at the rate of speed creates a forceful impact!!! The lighter the object the lesser the force. Example: Penny damage compared to a Car falling off the empire state building BIG DIFFERENCE!

Now Technically as far as we known it is impossible for Wally to achieve such speeds but I think its ok because Dc comics made Speed force! This is a great scapegoat! Now.....As far as Light speed and Superman goes well he is Superman and invulnerable so...... characters like that can be allowed to do this. Now about Wally becoming Invulnerable; this is false and as no science to back it up. Acceleration x Mass= Force......It grants no such protection. Example: If I am driving in a car and punch something going 80 mph my Force would be much greater but I would still feel the effects of hitting the object. Most logical outcome Ill break every bone in my hand at that speed! Even if I could run at 80 mph and I hit a object if my body and my force wasn't greater than the object I'd be extremely hurt! Example: If I could run at 80 mph and I ran into another person they would be KOed but Id also still feel the impact because their Mass and my Mass was roughly the same!!!!

As far as the other things go you are bang on. In the comic world Flash can do those things but if I was the Flash I wouldn't try to put my hand threw Supermans head. Superman has a skin tight invulnerable forcefield protecting him. This protection also exist inside Supermans body. In one Comic Superboy went inside Supermans body and punched a Cell/ or something; and it hurt Superboy. Wally might lose a hand doing this.... But it all depends on PIS. Logically he would lose a hand....unless he remains intangible.

As far as Speed goes Wally can steal Supermans speed if Superman is using his speed. Wally cannot drain speed from someone not moving. Likewise..... Superman although he has caught wally a of couple times; has no chance in catching Wally. That said

The winner depends. 1. If Superman gets the jump on Wally then he simply flys up and avoids Light speed attacks. Although Superman could problly tank those attacks. 2. If Wally gets the jump on Superman. Speed of Light or Speed Force attacks, then Wally would most likely win. Wally himself stated that if he ever absorbed all of the Speed force enegry he could take out Superman but in the process it would kill him! (take out meaning Kill not defeat) 3. If Wally can build up to those speeds before Superman has time to react? But seeing that Wally would need to build up those Speeds first Id say this gives Superman a slight starting advantage....not in reaction time but in straight out Toughness.

Ive read Flash comics and Flash has never went from Zero to Speed Force is nanoseconds. In the Infinite Crisis it took 3 Flash like characters to drag Superboy Prime into Speed Force just to trap him/not to defeat him!!!!! Three of them ended up failing at the attempt until Barry stepped in.

Reguardless of what fanboys have to say Flash needs much much greater Mass to kill Superman with Light speed attacks. Zoom is a time stopper so there should be no mass in that but according to the comics there is......O_O;. However even Zoom would have problems defeating Superman unless Zoom used the cosmic trendmill prior to the fight. If Zoom is allowed to absorb the timestream then Superman has no chance of winning. Likewise if Wally has prep and absorbs Speed Force using the Cosmic Tredmill Superman has no chance. The Flash would be WAY to fast!

Normally in just a random encounter Id say this is still a pretty tough fight but if I had to lend to one side then......id go Superman. But barely. Mostly because Superman can Fly up and avoid Wally. Wally has to beat Superman because Superman can fly up and without absorbing Speed Force prior too the fight I cant see Wally doing that.

#1433 Edited by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

@raw_material said:
@dredeuced said:

@raw_material said:

Hmm. New 52, maybe Flash. Any other continuity Superman wins.

New 52 Flash is much weaker than Superman (he's even slower). Pre-52 Wally was the only version of Flash that was every more powerful than Superman.

Lol what?! Okay?? So Barry outrunning Darkseid's omega beam, while Superman couldn't does not prove that he's faster than Supes is (as in comparison to the speed of the omega beam). And of course Flash is weaker than Superman! That would be nutz if I said he wasn't! Superman, the one that could carry Earth's orbit for five days with apparantly unbreakable chains? That one? Yea I know the Superman your talking about. Flash does not possess superhuman strength, although he does exceed human peak strength level and might be considered to have superhuman-level strength. However, his strength does increases as he accelerates his speeds.

Superman can't go at his max speeds in the atmosphere. He recently went 290x the speed of light in Red Hood and the Outlaws -- Barry has only gone lightspeed. New 52 Superman is much, much faster than New 52 Flash (Flash seems to have better control of his speed, though). Pre-52 Superman was millions of times slower than Pre-52 Flash (Wally).

@spectreswrath01: Wally has never said he could absorb the whole speed force. He also has gone from zero to massively FTL before (when he disarms mirror master in a picosecond, for instance) -- if that's what you meant by zero to "speed force" (speed force isn't a measurement of speed). Wally has stated he thinks one punch could KO someone as tough as the Man of Steel (Zum) and then did it.

Wally's protection COMES from the speed force. It's why he doesn't destroy the atmosphere by running at near light speeds, and it's why he doesn't create sonic booms that would destroy entire cities. F=ma has nothing to do with protection, his super powers do.

Wally can drain speed from someone who is not moving. He did it to Inertia, who he was holding still in his hands, until he could no longer move on his own. He also did it to Amazo, who was not moving.

Wally has shown he can fly before in The Human Race and Our Worlds at War, though it is inconsistent.

I seriously don't get why you think Wally absorbs speed force. Literally any time he uses his super speed he's accessing the Speed Force it's a natural thing that doesn't take time for him to accomplish. That's like saying Superman needs to stop to absorb solar radiation to use his powers.

#1434 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

Can someone explain to me the flaw with just plain 'ol Speed Steal + IMPx100?

#1435 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Superman.

#1436 Edited by SpectresWrath01 (208 posts) - - Show Bio

#

@dredeuced said:

@raw_material said:
@dredeuced said:

@raw_material said:

Hmm. New 52, maybe Flash. Any other continuity Superman wins.

New 52 Flash is much weaker than Superman (he's even slower). Pre-52 Wally was the only version of Flash that was every more powerful than Superman.

Lol what?! Okay?? So Barry outrunning Darkseid's omega beam, while Superman couldn't does not prove that he's faster than Supes is (as in comparison to the speed of the omega beam). And of course Flash is weaker than Superman! That would be nutz if I said he wasn't! Superman, the one that could carry Earth's orbit for five days with apparantly unbreakable chains? That one? Yea I know the Superman your talking about. Flash does not possess superhuman strength, although he does exceed human peak strength level and might be considered to have superhuman-level strength. However, his strength does increases as he accelerates his speeds.

Superman can't go at his max speeds in the atmosphere. He recently went 290x the speed of light in Red Hood and the Outlaws -- Barry has only gone lightspeed. New 52 Superman is much, much faster than New 52 Flash (Flash seems to have better control of his speed, though). Pre-52 Superman was millions of times slower than Pre-52 Flash (Wally).

@spectreswrath01: Wally has never said he could absorb the whole speed force. He also has gone from zero to massively FTL before (when he disarms mirror master in a picosecond, for instance) -- if that's what you meant by zero to "speed force" (speed force isn't a measurement of speed). Wally has stated he thinks one punch could KO someone as tough as the Man of Steel (Zum) and then did it.

Wally's protection COMES from the speed force. It's why he doesn't destroy the atmosphere by running at near light speeds, and it's why he doesn't create sonic booms that would destroy entire cities. F=ma has nothing to do with protection, his super powers do.

Wally can drain speed from someone who is not moving. He did it to Inertia, who he was holding still in his hands, until he could no longer move on his own. He also did it to Amazo, who was not moving.

Wally has shown he can fly before in The Human Race and Our Worlds at War, though it is inconsistent.

I seriously don't get why you think Wally absorbs speed force. Literally any time he uses his super speed he's accessing the Speed Force it's a natural thing that doesn't take time for him to accomplish. That's like saying Superman needs to stop to absorb solar radiation to use his powers.

Well I have to disagree with you on a couple of things. As we both known the Speed Force is a Energy Field that gives all Speedsters their power. Several Speedsters in the passed have merged with it including Barry Allen, Johnny Quick, and Max Mercury.

Now I agree with you on his protection has nothing to do with Force=Mass x Acceleration and that's what I was telling someone. The Speed Force doesn't provide Invulnerability but it does grant several different powers to any Speedsters. The powers vary from person to person but Speed is what they all have in common. It does grant him a level of durability that varies from time to time.

Now on to my argument. You said "you don't get why I think Wally can absorb the Speed Force?" Well, Wally already flat out said he could but in the process of doing it, it would probably kill him. Its a exact quote from the comics. Plus Absorbing the Entire Speed Force was already accomplished by Bart Allen (he volunteered to do it). He did it to stop Superboy Prime, after the conflict was resolved Bart Allen discovered that his new found connection with the Speed Force was killing him. Bart decided to stop using his powers for a whole year until Star Labs made a suit for him to contain the energy. Bart Allen would then become the Forth Flash! (Final Crisis 3 Worlds)

Now shorty after that Inertia, and the Speedsters lost connection to the Speed Force altogether (this happened when Bart Allen absorbed it all). Inertia then tried to build a machine that would cause a explosion and kill millions just to get his connection back with the Speed Force but was stopped by Bart Allen. In doing this it caused a disruption in the Speed Force that transported Wally West and his family back to earth from savoth, it also restored all powers back to the Speedsters!

Now you should know this if you know Flash comics well. The Speed Force is a energy field that all Speedsters can use.... the stronger the connection the more powerful they are! As well as you see different powers from different Speedsters. All these come from the Speed Force.

Again I will say- Yes, Wally has stated he could absorb the Entire Speed Force! In fact Speedsters all over are absorbing energy from the Speed Force all the time. Whenever a Speedster using the Cosmic Tredmill they are doing it for a reason.

Now you also said "the Speed Force is not a measurement of Speed and that it happens automatically?" I think you maybe referring to Superboy Primes first encounter with the Speedsters and Barry Allens Return to comics. What you are thinking there is what we called Breaking the Dimension Barrier. This is how Speed is laid out.....

1. Breaking the Sonic Barrier- Most Speedsters can do this in a instant at fast reaction time.

2. Breaking the Light Barrier- I think you quoted Wally doing this in a picosecond- well I don't know about that, seeing that your talking about reaction time??? Or are you referring to Wally doing something at Light speed in a Picosecond? Not really sure but it depends on Wallys connection with the Speed Force and how strong he is with it at that time. The Deeper the connection the more power he has and the faster he is.

3. Breaking the Time Barrier- This has been done a few times. Mostly with Prep time and by using the Cosmic Tredmill first. Zoom has done this to alter timelines and Professor Zoom did it again in Flashpoint. This is the reason why we have a New 52. Professor Zooms action changed things so much everything went out of wack and everything changed. Pandoras role in this change is still unclear to me. But back to breaking the Time Barrier. If Wally ran fast enough he CAN do this without the use of the Cosmic Tredmill.

4. Breaking the Dimension Barrier- Also used with the Cosmic Tredmill often. Wally can open a portal to other dimensions. I think this is what you were referring to when the speedsters attacked Superboy Prime and a Speed Force Portal opened up. Only at extreme speeds can they achieve this and it does not happen in a instant. It depends on the connection with the Speed Force. All 3 of them failed at this and it wasn't until Barry Allen returned that they could trap Superboy Prime. However, Prime was not trapped for long he spent a long time there building a suit and then escaped. Timeline was altered in the Speed Force and this is why Prime spent a year there but only a couple hours or days passed in the current timeline.

5. Breaking the Speed Force Barrier- We've seen this happen with Zoom. Time, Dimensions, and Reality itself get thrown all out of wack. It wasn't until the Flash used the Cosmic Tredmill to deepen his connection with the Speed Force and absorb Speed from the entire world to stop him. Also seen in FlashPoint. Although it was not stated.

The Speed Force has it limits too and has a Barrier to prevent such chaos and often we see both Zooms trying to disrupt that Barrier and Alter Timelines. These Barriers get cracked from time to time but manage to remain stable. This Barrier however can be Broken! And it is a measurement of Speed that Breaks this Barrier. But normally you are correct about it not being a Measurement of Speed. Speed Force is a Energy Field for all Speedsters! Infact I don't know if you know this or not but it was Barry Allen that created the Speed Force in the Silver Age.

I don't understand how you can compare Speed Force Energy to Superman absorbing radiation. They are two different things entirely, and what I said has nothing to do with Superman not needing to absorb energy? Uh What? Im a bit confused by your statements. And yes Speedsters absorb energy straight from the Speed Force and I don't know what you mean by it being a natural thing that happens? I think you are talking about when they enter into the Speed Force Dimension? Seen from time to time.

The Speed Force has actually been turned into a weapon before. (Gorflack built a Speed Force Cannon to stop alien invaders).

Now on to Wally Stealing Speed from Inertia. Inertia is a Speedster MOST Speedsters have a connection with the Speed Force. Wally also being a Speedster can absorb Speed Force energy already in people. Amazo has the power to copy powers. So in the process he absorbed energy from the Speed Force which Wally could rob from him. Otherwise people with no connection to the Speed Force he cannot Rob unless they are moving. Speed Force governs all moving things because it produces Kinetic Energy. Wally can Steal that making him faster....so basically he can steal any Kinetic energy or moving objects that builds momentum. Wally cannot absorb Energy from a standing still Superman. Sorry he cannot do that! Superman to my knowledge has no connection to the Speed Force at all! This is why Superman has a limit to his Speed and the Flashes don't. Although Superman is still extremely fast!

As far as Flying; Wally cannot fly. The Speed Force grants additional powers to different Speedsters and these Powers vary. So far Ive seen Speed(obviously), Speed Steal/Lend, Healing Factor, Fast Recovery, Flight, Shields, Durability (is regulated by the SpeedForce and varys), Infinite Mass Punch (which isn't Infinite...it was stated that it had the impact of a Small White Dwarf Star) This allowed Wally to one shot White Martians. (JLA Issue number 3). And he does this by being just shy of the Speed of Light and not moving at Light Speed. Intangibility/Molecular Control, Somehow negate the Anti-Life Equation? (Shown in Final Crisis issue 4 if you want to check it out? I still don't get that one.....Barry Allen cured his wife who was controlled by Darkseid and gave her, her free will back.) Well that's all I can think of right now. I know theres more.

Anyway, Check out Infinite Crisis, Flash Rebirth, FlashPoint, Final Crisis, Rouges (IC), 3 Worlds FC, and Flash comics after 3 Worlds. Pretty much everything I just said is in there if you don't believe me and check it out for yourself. I just take my time to read everything over again and again. So I know I am right about this and you can argue with me all you want but I know what Im talking about.

#1437 Edited by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

@spectreswrath01:

Well I have to disagree with you on a couple of things. As we both known the Speed Force is a Energy Field that gives all Speedsters their power. Several Speedsters in the passed have merged with it including Barry Allen, Johnny Quick, and Max Mercury.

Max Mercury never came back from the Speed Force. He almost went into it, then flinched and ran away at the last moment. He was the closest anyone ever got to entering the Speed Force to survive until Wally did it vs Kobra (and later vs the Black Racer and a few other times, really). Johnny Quick didn't really return from the Speed Force so much so as Professor Zoom messed with it -- after that Professor Zoom kills him and he never comes back save for the Black Lantern cameo. Barry Allen does come back, though again, kind of do to Professor Zoom more than his own doings.

Unless you're counting that time they took Superboy Prime away. I don't really think that counts since it was Wally and Bart dragging everyone. If they could do it on their own like Wally does, then...they'd have done it before.

Now I agree with you on his protection has nothing to do with Force=Mass x Acceleration and that's would I was telling someone. The Speed Force doesn't provide Invulnerability but it does grant several different powers to any Speedsters. The powers vary from person to person but Speed is what they all have in common.

You made it sound like he didn't have any protection at all, moreso than F=MA didn't give him protection. Every single speedster is protected from their own speed by the Speed Force -- that and Super Speed(of everything) are the powers they have in common.

Now shorty after that Inertia, and the Speedsters around the world had lost connection to the Speed Force altogether (this happened when Bart Allen absorbed it all). Inertia then tried to build a machine that would cause a explosion and kill millions just to get his connection back with the Speed Force but was stopped by Bart Allen. In doing this it caused a disruption in the Speed Force that transported Wally West and his family back to earth from savoth, it also restored all powers back to the Speedsters!

The speedsters around the world lost their connection to the Speed Force when Bart and Wally took it with them to a different dimension when they carried away Superboy -- not when anyone absorbed it. In the alternate universe, all the speedsters still had their speed, so no one had absorbed it.

Again I will say- Yes, Wally has stated he could absorb the Entire Speed Force! In fact Speedsters all over are absorbing energy from the Speed Force all the time. Whenever a Speedster using the Cosmic Tredmill they are doing it for a reason.

Barry was the one who suggested Wally absorb the entire Speed Force. Then Max Mercury said it could kill him. I think you're misremembering the scene. Here it is:

Bart also doesn't actually absorb the entirety of the Speed Force in this issue. Wally still has his superspeed in the alternate universe (he uses it when raising his kids and to dodge some stuff and save them during a calamity with the Legion of Super-heroes). Wally never said he could absorb the speed force to kill Superman. Bart absorbed a lot of speedster's energy to go back to warn people that Prime was coming, not to kill him(Though the souped up Bart does scare him off pretty easily later on).

Now you also said the Speed Force is not a measurement of Speed that it happens automatically? I think you maybe referring to Superboy Primes first encounter with the Speedsters and Barry Allens Return to comics. What you are thinking there is what we called Breaking the Dimension Barrier. This is how Speed is laid out....

No, I'm saying anytime a speedster EVER uses a speed related power they are accessing the speed force. Savitar more or less proves it with his interactions with all the other Speedsters -- They're literally powerless without access to the speed force. Moving an extra mile per hour as a speedster involves tapping into the speed force. The only exception is Jay Garrick, who has a metagene source of Superspeed.

1. Breaking the Sonic Barrier- Most Speedsters can do this in a instant at fast reaction time.

2. Breaking the Light Barrier- I think you quoted Wally doing this in a picosecond- well I don't know about that seeing that your talking about reaction time??? Or are you referring to Wally doing something at Light speed in a Picosecond? Not really sure but it depends on Wallys connection with the Speed Force and how strong he is with it at that time. The Deeper the connection the more power he has and the faster he is

Shortly after his incident with Kobra, Wally had gained superior access and connection to the Speed Force. He could quite easily break light speed, and even did so by disarming Mirror Master in a picosecond:

For reference, to cover the distance between himself and Mirror Master and himself in a picosecond, he'd have to be going thousands of times the speed of light. Basically every single one of his many picosecond feats are thousands to million of times the speed of light.

He was literally too fast for the entirety of DC Earth -- even Barry Allen and himself as Kid Flash -- to comprehend in their fight with Anti Monitor. He had an entire fight with Zoom faster than Superman could react to. Wally has shown time and time again that he's monumentally, extraordinarily faster than the rest of the JL to the point where they can't comprehend him when he's working at max speed.

3. Breaking the Time Barrier- This has been done a few times. Mostly with Prep time and by using the Cosmic Tredmill first. Zoom has done this to alter timelines and Professor Zoom did it again in Flashpoint. This is the reason why we have a New 52. Professor Zooms action changed things so much everything went out of wack and everything changed. Pandoras role in this change is still unclear to me. But back to breaking the Time Barrier. If Wally ran fast enough he CAN do this without the use of the Cosmic Tredmill.

Wally actually quite frequently time travels without help from the cosmic treadmill. He had to chase Cobalt Blue through the timestream during the Chain Lightning arc to prevent it from killing all the speedsters of the past, and after beating Professor Zoom in this arc, he dumps him off in the future:

4. Breaking the Dimension Barrier- Also used with the Cosmic Tredmill often. Wally can open a portal to other dimensions. I think this is what you were referring to when the speedsters attacked Superboy Prime and a Speed Force Portal opened up. Only at extreme speeds can they achieve this and it does not happen in a instant. It depends on the connection with the Speed Force. All 3 of them failed at this and it wasn't until Barry Allen returned that they could trap Superboy Prime. However, Prime was not trapped for long he spent a long time there building a suit and then escaped. Timeline was altered in the Speed Force and this is why Prime spent a year there but only a couple hours or days passed in the current timeline.

Wally has dimensionally travelled before while standing still, ala:

He also did it when he traversed infinite dimensions with Linda before.

5. Breaking the Speed Force Barrier- We've seen this happen with Zoom. Time, Dimensions, and Reality itself get thrown all out of wack. It wasn't until the Flash used the Cosmic Tredmill to deepen his connection with the Speed Force and absorb Speed from the entire world to stop him.

Wait what? Was this when Zoom and Professor Zoom fought Barry and Wally on a pair of cosmic treadmills after Zoom kidnapped Jay Garrick to get it to work?

You mentioned Zoom, and that's the only time I remember him dicking with the cosmic treadmill aside from the time he got his powers.

The Speed Force has it limits too and has a Barrier to prevent such chaos often we see both Zooms trying to disrupt that Barrier and Alter Timelines. These Barriers get cracked from time to time but manage to remain stable. This Barrier however can be Broken! And it is a measurement of Speed that breaks this Barrier. But normally you are correct about it not being a Measurement of Speed. Speed Force is a Energy Field for all Speedsters! Infact I don't know if you know this or not but it was Barry Allen that created the Speed Force in the Silver Age.

I don't understand how you can compare Speed Force Energy to Superman absorbing radiation. They are two different things entirely, and what I said has nothing to do with Superman not needing to absorb energy? Uh What? Im a bit confused by your statements. And yes Speedsters absorb energy straight from the Speed Force and I don't know what you mean by it being a natural thing that happens? I think you are talking about when they enter into the Speed Force Dimension?

My point was it doesn't take Wally time to access the Speed Force -- he's constantly accessing and in contact with it. You made it sound like he had to stand there and power up like a DBZ character to speed up, when he can do it as instantly as he can react (zeptosecond).

The Speed Force has actually been turned into a weapon before. (Gorflack built a Speed Force Cannon to stop alien invaders).

Well yeah, it's an energy source. Inertia did something like that, as well.

Now on to Wally Stealing Speed from Inertia. Inertia is a Speedster MOST Speedsters have a connection with the Speed Force. Wally also being a Speedster can absorb Speed Force energy already in people. Amazo has the power to copy powers. So in the process he absorbed energy from the Speed Force which Wally could rob from him. Otherwise people with no connection to the Speed Force he cannot Rob unless they are moving. Speed Force governs all moving things because it produces Kinetic Energy. Wally can Steal that....so basically he can steal any Kinetic energy or moving objects that build momentum. Wally cannot absorb Energy from a standing still Superman. Sorry he cannot do that! Superman to my knowledge has no connection to the Speed Force at all! This is why Superman has a limit to his Speed and the Flashes don't. Although Superman is still extremely fast!

Technically, everything in the DC universe is connected to the speed force -- it governs all movement and time in the multiverse.

At the time, when Wally speed stole Inertia, I believe he did not have any Speed Force powers (he was trying to take them from Bart but ended up bringing back Wally instead, who took it) -- Inertia was super speed because of a drug called velocity 9. So you're wrong on that count. Amazo was not a speed force user (he merely copied Wally's speed) and Wally speed stole him while Amazo was standing still and holding him.

Jay Garrick has speed stolen Superman. Nothing you're stating is a limitation.

As far as Flying; Wally cannot fly. The Speed Force grants additional powers to different Speedsters and these Powers vary. So far Ive seen Speed(obviously), Speed Steal/Lend, Healing Factor, Fast Recovery, Flight, Shields, Durability (is regulated by the SpeedForce and varys), Infinite Mass Punch (which isn't Infinite...it was stated that it had the impact of a Small White Dwarf Star) This allowed Wally to one shot White Martians. (JLA Issue number 3). And he does this by being just shy of the Speed of Light not moving at Light Speed. Intangibility/Molecular Control, Somehow negate the Anti-Life Equation? (Shown in Final Crisis issue 4 if you want to check it out? I still don't get that one.....Barry Allen cured his wife who was controlled by Darkseid and gave her, her free will back.) Well that's all I can think of right now. I know theres more.

You're gonna have a hard time explaining these, then:

Like I said, he's flown before, but it's inconsistent and based on the writer.

Anyway, Check out Infinite Crisis, Flash Rebirth, FlashPoint, Final Crisis, Rouges (IC), 3 Worlds FC, and pretty much everything I just said is in there if you don't believe me and check it out for yourself. I just take my time to read everything over again and again. So I know I am right about this and you can argue all you want but I know what Im talking about.

Read em. Rebirth and Flashpoint weren't even Wally, anyhow.

#1438 Posted by SpectresWrath01 (208 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

"Max Mercury never came back from the Speed Force. He almost went into it, then flinched and ran away at the last moment. He was the closest anyone ever got to entering the Speed Force to survive until Wally did it vs Kobra (and later vs the Black Racer and a few other times, really). Johnny Quick didn't really return from the Speed Force so much so as Professor Zoom messed with it -- after that Professor Zoom kills him and he never comes back save for the Black Lantern cameo. Barry Allen does come back, though again, kind of do to Professor Zoom more than his own doings.

Unless you're counting that time they took Superboy Prime away. I don't really think that counts since it was Wally and Bart dragging everyone. If they could do it on their own like Wally does, then...they'd have done it before"

1. No what I am saying was Barry, Max, and Quick Merged with the SpeedForce. Meaning after death speedsters (soul, spirit, whatever you wanna call it) return to the Speed Force. Only Barry Allen escaped after merging with it but again this is after his death.

"You made it sound like he didn't have any protection at all, moreso than F=MA didn't give him protection. Every single speedster is protected from their own speed by the Speed Force -- that and Super Speed(of everything) are the powers they have in common."

2. You made it sound like he was invulnerable or somebody did and I was saying NO he is not invulnerable. He does have durability but it varies depending on the Speed Force.

The speedsters around the world lost their connection to the Speed Force when Bart and Wally took it with them to a different dimension when they carried away Superboy -- not when anyone absorbed it. In the alternate universe, all the speedsters still had their speed, so no one had absorbed it.

3. Then please explain why the Speedsters lost their speed and why Inertia lost his connection to the Speed Force. Too me it seems pretty obvious he absorbed it. Quote from Bart Allen here " I was the only one left that could run." And then the follow Arc. If everyone lost their connection due to being in another dimension then why could only Bart still Run and Wally couldnt?

Bart Absorbed the Speed Force to be fast enough to defeat Prime. "Clearly states I was the only one left that could still run."

"For reference, to cover the distance between himself and Mirror Master and himself in a picosecond, he'd have to be going thousands of times the speed of light. Basically every single one of his many picosecond feats are thousands to million of times the speed of light.

He was literally too fast for the entirety of DC Earth -- even Barry Allen and himself as Kid Flash -- to comprehend in their fight with Anti Monitor. He had an entire fight with Zoom faster than Superman could react to. Wally has shown time and time again that he's monumentally, extraordinarily faster than the rest of the JL to the point where they can't comprehend him when he's working at max speed."

4.

I hope were not using Silver Age feats? Anyway I dont see where you get him moving thousands to millions of times the speed of light here? Nothing in that scan is saying Flash can react millions of times at light speed in a picosecond. I thing thats a bit extreme. -Not to mention wrong. Flash cannot react millions of times light speed in a picosecond. NO.

"Bart also doesn't actually absorb the entirety of the Speed Force in this issue. Wally still has his superspeed in the alternate universe (he uses it when raising his kids and to dodge some stuff and save them during a calamity with the Legion of Super-heroes). Wally never said he could absorb the speed force to kill Superman. Bart absorbed a lot of speedster's energy to go back to warn people that Prime was coming, not to kill him(Though the souped up Bart does scare him off pretty easily later on)."

5.

Again the scan above Bart Clearly states he was the only one left that could still Run. If Wally never lost his speed.....why did Bart state that and why was Wally and his family returned to earth and his powers returned after the Inertia story?

"Wally has dimensionally travelled before while standing still, ala:"

6.

That scan is not Wally going into another Dimension. He is going Intangible.

"Wally actually quite frequently time travels without help from the cosmic treadmill. He had to chase Cobalt Blue through the timestream during the Chain Lightning arc to prevent it from killing all the speedsters of the past, and after beating Professor Zoom in this arc, he dumps him off in the future:"

I never said Wally cant time travel without the Cosmic Tredmill but when Flash needs to access the Speed Force or deepen his connection he uses it. At extreme speeds and depending on the speedsters connection with the Speed Force they can time travel. OR use the Speed Force Dimension to time travel.

My point was it doesn't take Wally time to access the Speed Force -- he's constantly accessing and in contact with it. You made it sound like he had to stand there and power up like a DBZ character to speed up, when he can do it as instantly as he can react (zeptosecond)

7. Yes all speedsters are connected to the Speed Force. They do not need the Cosmic Tredmill to access it. Its already apart of them. They do it to strengthen the connection or for a desired effect. In this I am not saying they need the Tredmill in order to strength but to reach their goal faster they use it. Wally can strength his connection without the cosmic tredmill. I absolutely agree with this.

"Technically, everything in the DC universe is connected to the speed force -- it governs all movement and time in the multiverse.

At the time, when Wally speed stole Inertia, I believe he did not have any Speed Force powers (he was trying to take them from Bart but ended up bringing back Wally instead, who took it) -- Inertia was super speed because of a drug called velocity 9. So you're wrong on that count. Amazo was not a speed force user (he merely copied Wally's speed) and Wally speed stole him while Amazo was standing still and holding him.

Jay Garrick has speed stolen Superman. Nothing you're stating is a limitation"

8. All movement is connected to the Speed Force. Someone with no motion Wally cannot steal speed from. Sorry sticking to my guys here. Disbelieve if you wish. Superman has no connection to the Speed Force. If Superman was not moving Wally cannot steal speed without any type of speed present. Superman needs to be in motion or have a connection to the Speed Force in order for Wally to drain him of it. Superman has no such connection. Jay Garrick stole speed from Superman when he was trying to catch the Flash. And Superman was out running Jay Garrick. So Superman was moving when this happened.

Also Velocity 9 was the only reason why Inertia could still run fast. Thats it.

I dont know what your trying to say with those scans? What is your point? Wally has a very strong connection to the Speed Force I dont have a problem with it. And its inconsistent because of Wallys connection with the Speed Force.

Also I know Rebirth was about Barry my point their was about Max, and Quick being merged with the Speed Force.

Anyway besides going on and on about stories the topic is Superman vs Flash. All you have to do really is compare the stats.

And I will do that in my next post....so please check later for my follow up. Id love your input. Obviously you know what your talking about. I think we have some disagreements but I can tell your a loyal comic reading

#1439 Posted by dum529001 (1635 posts) - - Show Bio

This Thread has officially gone "Big Bang Theory"


#1440 Edited by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

@spectreswrath01:

1. No what I am saying was Barry, Max, and Quick Merged with the SpeedForce. Meaning after death speedsters (soul, spirit, whatever you wanna call it) return to the Speed Force. Only Barry Allen escaped after merging with it but again this is after his death.

Bart is clearly mistaken here. Wally has come back from the Speed Force multiple times -- he literally brought Linda back from it when the Black Racer took her instead of him after he defeated the Black Racer. Probably a mistake on the writer's part or a badly worded statement from Bart, considering he was right there when Wally did it.

2. You made it sound like he was invulnerable or somebody did and I was saying NO he is not invulnerable. He does have durability but it varies depending on the Speed Force.

Oh no, that's not what I meant -- just that every Speedster has some degree of enhanced durability. Wally has the best showings of taking absurd levels of damage without going down.

3. Then please explain why the Speedsters lost their speed and why Inertia lost his connection to the Speed Force. Too me it seems pretty obvious he absorbed it. Quote from Bart Allen here " I was the only one left that could run." And then the follow Arc. If everyone lost their connection due to being in another dimension then why could only Bart still Run and Wally couldnt?Bart Absorbed the Speed Force to be fast enough to defeat Prime. "Clearly states I was the only one left that could still run."

Inertia lost his connection with the speed force the same way everyone did -- when Wally and Bart took it with them to contain Superboy Prime. Bart says he's the only one left who could run because Wally had to stay with his wife and kids. I showed you the scan:

Wally clearly was capable and still had his super speed in the alternate reality after Bart left. He just didn't leave because he wasn't leaving Linda and his twin children behind, and Barry didn't because...I dunno, I guess they didn't want Barry coming back too early since he was planned to come back during Final Crisis? They gave their speed to make Bart more powerful, for sure, but as I said the speed force was still accessible in this alternate reality after Bart left.

I hope were not using Silver Age feats? Anyway I dont see where you get him moving thousands to millions of times the speed of light here? Nothing in that scan is saying Flash can react millions of times at light speed in a picosecond. I thing thats a bit extreme. -Not to mention wrong. Flash cannot react millions of times light speed in a picosecond. NO.

I am not using Silver Age feats, I'm using Chain Lightning feats. If you had read all the Flash comics as you claimed you did you would know exactly what I'm talking about.

First ten (splitting them to get around Comicvine's weird formatting):

Nothing in that Mirror Master scan says he isn't moving at Light Speed? You kidding me? The distance light travels in a single picosecond is 0.30millimeters -- it's basic math. You just take how far Light travels in one second (299 792 458 meters per second) Then multiply it by the factor of a picosecond to that one second (10^-12) and you get 0.00029979245, or rounding and simplifying, 0.3 millimeters. If Wally is even one meter away from Mirror Master while standing there at gunpoint, he would have to be going 3333.33etc times faster than the speed of light to travel one meter in a picosecond. He's got multiple other picosecond feats so it's not like this is inconsistent.

Again the scan above Bart Clearly states he was the only one left that could still Run. If Wally never lost his speed.....why did Bart state that and why was Wally and his family returned to earth and his powers returned after the Inertia story?

Yeah but you ignored the reasons on WHY they couldn't run -- Bart and co didn't want Wally to leave his kids, so they sent Bart to warn everyone. Not because he had no powers, as he has his powers later on after Bart leaves.

That scan is not Wally going into another Dimension. He is going Intangible.

Except for the part where, you know, it says he's vibrating to a different dimensional frequency to go intangible instead of moving his molecules the normal way. Again, it's not the only time he's traveled dimensions (Speed Force dumping prime, travelling infinite dimensions with Linda to get back to their native dimension, vs Professor Zoom, vs cobalt blue, etc). Wally's quite the casual dimension traveler.

I never said Wally cant time travel without the Cosmic Tredmill but when Flash needs to access the Speed Force or deepen his connection he uses it. At extreme speeds and depending on the speedsters connection with the Speed Force they can time travel. OR use the Speed Force Dimension to time travel.

7. Yes all speedsters are connected to the Speed Force. They do not need the Cosmic Tredmill to access it. Its already apart of them. They do it to strengthen the connection or for a desired effect. In this I am not saying they need the Tredmill in order to strength but to reach their goal faster they use it. Wally can strength his connection without the cosmic tredmill. I absolutely agree with this.

Flash deepens his connection to the Speed Force when he uses the speed formula to save Linda from Kobra. What arc does he use the treadmill to become closer to the speed force? I don't remember that one. Heck the cosmic treadmill is almost featureless in Wally's run as the Flash -- merely as a tool to get rid of Professor Zoom in their first fight, when Zoom gains his powers, and when Zoom uses Jay Garrick to try to go back in time and kill Linda during Wally and Zoom's first encounter.

8. All movement is connected to the Speed Force. Someone with no motion Wally cannot steal speed from. Sorry sticking to my guys here. Disbelieve if you wish. Superman has no connection to the Speed Force. If Superman was not moving Wally cannot steal speed without any type of speed present. Superman needs to be in motion or have a connection to the Speed Force in order for Wally to drain him of it. Superman has no such connection. Jay Garrick stole speed from Superman when he was trying to catch the Flash. And Superman was out running Jay Garrick. So Superman was moving when this happened.

This is incorrect, though. You don't have to be moving to have your speed stolen. Wally did it to Amazo while he was standing still:

He did it to Cheetah while she was laying still on top of him:

And he did it to Inertia while he was holding him still in his hands:

Specifically says he prevents him from moving and steals his speed. Your assumption that someone has to be moving themselves to be speed stolen is incorrect. As long as you're capable of using your speed, Wally can take speed from you until you end up a statue like Inertia.

Also Velocity 9 was the only reason why Inertia could still run fast. Thats it.

I know, that's what I said. You were the one talking about Inertia being connected to the Speed Force and that's why Wally could speed steal him. Inertia's speed, at the time, was NOT Speed Force powers, but a drug.

I dont know what your trying to say with those scans? What is your point? Wally has a very strong connection to the Speed Force I dont have a problem with it. And its inconsistent because of Wallys connection with the Speed Force.

What I'm trying to say is Wally can speed steal people who aren't moving and he can accelerate to massively FTL levels in a picosecond or less. You stated that someone has to be moving to be speed stolen and that Wally needs to build up speed -- while technically the second statement is true, he can break FTL faster than other heroes can think (superman's best is Nanosecond reaction, for instance), so it's not particularly relevant unless it's someone who can react to the femtosecond.

Also I know Rebirth was about Barry my point their was about Max, and Quick being merged with the Speed Force.

Anyway besides going on and on about stories the topic is Superman vs Flash. All you have to do really is compare the stats.

And I will do that in my next post....so please check later for my follow up. Id love your input. Obviously you know what your talking about. I think we have some disagreements but I can tell your a loyal comic reading

I have read the entirety of Wally's Flash run (save a few of the very early 1987-88 ones) and also Bart's short lived Flash run. My memory is not perfect but I'm pretty sure my knowledge on Wally and the Flash family is respectable.

#1441 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced:

knowledge on Wally and the Flash family is respectable.

Correction highly* respectable.

#1442 Edited by SpectresWrath01 (208 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001 said:

This Thread has officially gone "Big Bang Theory"

lol

@dredeuced:Bart is clearly mistaken here. Wally has come back from the Speed Force multiple times -- he literally brought Linda back from it when the Black Racer took her instead of him after he defeated the Black Racer. Probably a mistake on the writer's part or a badly worded statement from Bart, considering he was right there when Wally did it.

- Wally did not die at this point in time. The only people that merge with the Speed Force are the ones that died. Barry died in COIE so he was the only one at this point time time that came back to life. Able to escape the speed force....after merging with it. Wally can easily escape the speed force dimension if thats what your trying to say.

Wally clearly was capable and still had his super speed in the alternate reality after Bart left. He just didn't leave because he wasn't leaving Linda and his twin children behind, and Barry didn't because...I dunno, I guess they didn't want Barry coming back too early since he was planned to come back during Final Crisis? They gave their speed to make Bart more powerful, for sure, but as I said the speed force was still accessible in this alternate reality after Bart left.

Wally clearly at that point: could have still came back but it is after IC is what I am talking about. In the little story arc with Inertia and Bart, after the IC and one year later, where Bart refused to use his powers because the Speed Force was killing him. After StarLabs made him a suit and when Inertia was taking the Velocity 9 pills given to him by deathstroke (orginally made by Vandel Savage) he tryed to reconnection with the Speed Force. After Bart Stopped him Wally and his family came back to earth and his powers were restored.

Yeah but you ignored the reasons on WHY they couldn't run -- Bart and co didn't want Wally to leave his kids, so they sent Bart to warn everyone. Not because he had no powers, as he has his powers later on after Bart leaves.

Im not ignoring what your trying to say. Your saying he didnt lose his powers but even though I may not be a huge Flash fan like you: I remember reading these comics and remember Wally clearly getting his powers restored after Inertia plan semi succeeded trying to reconnect with the Speed Force. (Inertia powers are Time alteration and not Speed, however this is still a power given by the Speed Force.)

I know, that's what I said. You were the one talking about Inertia being connected to the Speed Force and that's why Wally could speed steal him. Inertia's speed, at the time, was NOT Speed Force powers, but a drug

Wally can use Speed Drain even a character just about to attack him! In a split second! So that scan with Cheetah as you can see, she is attacking him; so in that split second he steals her speed. Any movement of any kind Wally can steal. Or any connection with the Speed Force. Wally cannot steal speed from a Rock! Or something with no motion. Now if his connection with the speed force was strong enough he could steal the speed of the entire earths 24 hour rotation but I doubt he would do that because who knows what would happen to the earth.

Inertia does have a conneciton to the speed force. You brought up Velocity 9, I didnt say anything about it. (it really had nothing to do with the topic.) Its not orginally part of Inertias power set. He has Time Alteration and its a power he got from the Speed Force similar to Hunter Zolomon? So Im confused. Its a experimental drug made by Vandel Savage givin 2 Inertia by deathstroke. What about it? And what does it have to do with Wally stealing Inertia Speed?

Nothing in that Mirror Master scan says he isn't moving at Light Speed? You kidding me? The distance light travels in a single picosecond is 0.30millimeters -- it's basic math. You just take how far Light travels in one second (299 792 458 meters per second) Then multiply it by the factor of a picosecond to that one second (10^-12) and you get 0.00029979245, or rounding and simplifying, 0.3 millimeters. If Wally is even one meter away from Mirror Master while standing there at gunpoint, he would have to be going 3333.33etc times faster than the speed of light to travel one meter in a picosecond. He's got multiple other picosecond feats so it's not like this is inconsistent.

That distance Wally is standing from Mirror Master is maybe about a meter or 2 away. Light travels 186000 miles per second. Well we do know their is 1609.344 meters in 1 Mile. So you multiply that number by the distance light travels in 1 second and you get 299792458 meters per second. However you getting too far by multiplying the factor by a picosecond. Theirs no need to 2 do that. I believe the statement was he stopped it a picosecond ago! (which is dumb because by the time Mirror Master could even hear the words coming from Wallys mouth, seconds have passed already!) Bascially, he meant he disarmed the gun in that moment! (Meaning it took 1 picosecond for him to disarm it, not travel.) Lets see here Light travels 982,080,000 feet per second -- or 11,784,960,000 inches. In a billionth of a second, one nanosecond, photons of light travel just a bit less than a foot. In a Picosecond Light travels 1/1000 of a foot. Now their is roughly 3 meters in 1 foot. So it would take 3000 picoseconds for light 2 travel 1 meter. (thats 3000 times the speed of light) However, The comic doesnt state Wally reacted a picosecond ago and disarmed the gun in a picosecond. This is why I think your going to far. Unless Clearly stated by the comic!

Also. Light travels faster than the human eye can see. Example turn on a light bulb in a closed room and try to see when the light hits the wall behind you. I bet you cant. Light would fill up the entire room before you even noticed it touched the wall..(you would however see the room light up and thats it but what your seeing is light everywhere in a instant. ppl cannot see light travel.) Thats how fast Light is at that instant. My guess is Wally reacted super fast speed and moved at light speed and back before Mirror Master even new what was going on. And the gun was disarmed in a picosecond. Not that Wally reacted in a Picosecond and disarmed it and moved back in a picosecond. That would be insane! ( Wally would have been moving 6000 times the speed of light to move their and back!) Thats if the distance is only 1 meter away. Looks maybe 2 meters to me. That would mean Wally traveled 12,000 times the speed of Light in a picosecond. If this is the case Wally would never have any challenge in the DCU at all. There would be no point to have villians. I have to extremely disagree with you here.

On to the topic: because the debate will be never ending.

Sense Wally is too inconstant to use with your rules: moving at 6,666 times the speed of light in picoseconds to having trouble with Gorilla God. Im going to use the Wally I know. Im not making fun at you or anything (I say it with respect) its just too inconstant for me to use. Also I am not a die hard Flash reader but I do read variety of comics. So...

" If you had read all the Flash comics as you claimed you did you would know exactly what I'm talking about."

I do know alot about the Flash but I never made such claims. At no point in our conversation did I ever state I read all the Flash comics.

One to the Fight!

To me it comes down to comparing stats. In character! Both Wally and Superman would hold back not wanting to really harm the other. However Wally is less likely to go all out in a attempt to kill Superman as Superman would be to using enough power to put him down. I see Superman winning with Morals on. Because, Wally would not be willing go that far and try to kill Superman. And against Superman he would have too!

Superman vs Wally without Morals: Wally wins. Enough speed force and without reguard to Supermans life. Wally would go all out. I dont think Superman could Tank that! Or keep up!

Superman vs Wally without Morals and Bloodlusted! Superman wins. Superman disguarding life itself and wanting to kill everything in sight pretty much means the end of the earth before (I feel) Wally can stop him. In a straight up fight Wally would win but Superman would not go down easy and Wally would eventually get in the way of Superman being bloodlusted. Wally while durable would not survive the destruction of the planet. I will explain why later!

On to the stats: Up first is Superman!

Durability. Superman in cannon comics can withstand roughly (with no extra enhancements at base levels and low feats) 10 Octillion megatons of damage!!!!!!! Surviving a supernova blast will do that. Sense a supernovas destructive force comes to 10 octillion megatons! However it is likely Superman can withstand much more! (Example:Two planets crashing into each other with Superman in the middle.) This durability varies by the amount of sunlight absorption.

Speed: With nanosecond reaction time and capable of keeping up with Flash speed. (None Flight speed) Supermans speed comes too- 9.4 billion km/hr (this was timed by Maxwell Lord as Superman flew to the Sun and Back in under 2 minutes along with Wonder Woman). According to Batman: Superman can travel 17 billion km/hr. Possiblly much faster. And nobody argues with Batmans facts! So.... Supermans base speed comes to a impressive 17 billion km/hr. Not Flight time!

Strength- Superman has held up the earth and moved it. With no enhancements Superman still has the ability to move the earth. Supermans strength in cannon comics comes too -6.6 sexitillion tons! In Our Worlds at War Superman actually spent 15 minutes inside the sun. When he resurfaced Superman was capable to move mutliply planets effortlessly!!!!!

Damage output!: Superman can use Infinite Mass Punch! By vibrating his body just under light speed Supermans damage output can destroy entire planets causing a killer 10 octillion tons of damage! The same amount as a supernova! Supermans heat vision (while it drains his solar energy faster, than his other abilities) Can cover the entire area that he sees!!!!!! Like when Supermans he vision engulfed a planet! Also.... Supermans heat vision can reach temperatures hotter than the sun! If he wanted to he can destroy entire planets with his heat vision! Supermans heat vision can even work mircoscopic causing lobotomy. Even without villians noticing it ever happened. The damage output can be measured because the Infinite Mass Punch was compared to the mass of a white dwarf.

On to the Flash!:

Durability: Flashes Durability varies on the amount the Speed Force provides him. (Speed Force Aura) Under, Normal conditions Flashes Durability comes too less than bullet piercing defense but just under the speed of light Flash can withstand impact of 10 octillion megatons. Flash also has self-sestenance making him capable of surviving the harshness of space.

Speed: With picosecond, femtosecond and even attosecond reaction. Flashes speed varies! He can infinitely increasing to almost any speed he desires! It was even stated Wally could reach any speed he imagines. (This does not include reaching any speed he desires in a Picosecond or Femtosecond.) Thats just reaction time. However the faster Flash moves.... time slow downs and he can react in attoseconds (which is 1 quintillionth of a second!). However....Flash must be already moving at those speeds for time to be warped. Flash cannot move trillions of times light speed in 1 femtosecond unless he is already moving at those speeds. It was stated Flash casually travels at 500 times the Speed of Light! Flash is so fast he was able to easily save and carry over half a million people 35 miles away from a Nuclear Warhead that had already detonated including the ones at ground zero in only 100 picoseconds, and even move so fast that he exists everywhere at once. As you seen with Dreds scan!

Now dont get me wrong it does not take long for Flash to reach those speeds but most of Flashes fast reaction time involves him already moving at extremely high speeds. Its speed said Flash moves faster than thought and moves so fast Light seems to be standing still!!!! In one arc Flash was able to defeat death itself (the Black Flash) by outracing it to the end of time/space, past entropy, the next Big Bang and into the next Universe. To put this in perspective, one attosecond is to one second, what one second is to the age of the universe.), and he has even reacted and calculated by the zeptosecond (Which is one trillionth of one billionth of one second.) Simply put their is no limit to Flashes speed!

Strength: Flash has not shown super strength feats. However by using enough speed he doesnt need it to cause widespread damage!

Damage output: Infinite mass punch comes in at a awesome 10 octillion megatons of damage!!!!!

Comparing stats and who wins!

Durability: Superman 10 octillion megatons of damage and maybe more! (vs) To Flash varying up to 10 octillion tons of damage!

Winner: Superman!

-Flashes only problem here is that is strongest defense is under light speed with his infinite mass punch. Basically anything over light speed is weightless! So Flash needs to stay under light speed to cause massive damage or gain massive durability. Sense this varies by the Speed Force, the Flash has to maintain that speed to match Supermans durability.

Speed: Superman 17 billion km/hr (maybe more) vs Flash infinite Speed!

Winner: Flash!

This one doesnt even come close. While Superman is able to move much faster than Light and react in a nanosecond doesnt compare to Flash reacting at Attoseconds or Femtoseconds. Even though Superman can keep up with most speedsters and vibrate his body under light speed to do the Infinite Mass Punch, this still doesnt compare to Flash reaching speeds over 500 times light speed or increasing his speed almost infinitely.

Hand down this one goes to Wally by no contest! On a side note. Supermans speed varies by his shur force of will and not Speed Force! If Superman force of will is strong enough he can escape blackholes, double blackholes. Have after images or go intangible like the Flash. This however is still no where near Flashes Speed Force!

Strength: Superman 6.6 sextillion tons vs Flash with enhanced Superhuman strength.

Winner: Superman!

If Superman was capable of ever getting ahold of the Flash, it would mean lights out for Wally. By just squeezing Wally, Superman could kill him fairly easily. However, Flash does not fight with Strength and thats where the problem lies for Superman! Supermans best quality is his strength and by overpowering most of his opponents however Wally will not be fight a brute match with Superman.

In terms of Strength Superman wins this one hands down!

Damage output: Superman 10 octillion megatons vs Flash 10 octillion mega tons!

Winner: TIE!

Both characters strongest attacks are the infinite mass punch. However rarely used they both can put out the same amount of damage. However.... Supermans damage output is much higher without using speed!

In the end both these characters can defeat the other. It all depends on the situation. However I feel Superman has one major advantage over the Flash and thats mode of transportation! Superman doesnt need to be on the ground to fight this battle! In fact Superman doesnt need to even be on earth to fight this battle!

#1443 Posted by Dredeuced (5715 posts) - - Show Bio

@spectreswrath01:

- Wally did not die at this point in time. The only people that merge with the Speed Force are the ones that died. Barry died in COIE so he was the only one at this point time time that came back to life. Able to escape the speed force....after merging with it. Wally can easily escape the speed force dimension if thats what your trying to say.

It is outright stated by both Max and Wally that he merged with the Speed Force and came back. Kobra's blast killed him but he came back because he had to save Linda. There was also the time when the Black Flash took Linda into the Speed Force -- and we know when the Black Flash hits you, you're dead. He defeated the Black Flash (raced to the end of time), went back into the speed force, and pulled linda back with him. He clearly is capable of merging and coming back from the Speed Force if he absolutely has to.

Wally clearly at that point could have still came back but afterwards is what I am talking about. In the little story arc with Inertia and Bart after the IC and one year later where Bart refused to use his powers because of the danger of the Speed Force and what it was doing to him. After StarLabs made him a suit and when Inertia was taking the Velocity 9 pills given to him by deathstroke (orginally made by Vandel Savage) Velocity 9 tryed to reconnection with the Speed Force. After Bart Stopped him Wally came back to earth with his family and his powers were restored.

Wally had his powers before that, though.

The machine DID cause a disruption in the Speed Force that pulled Wally and his family back, but it was not shown rekindling his powers because he never lost them. Wally has lent out his speed plenty of times and, while it DOES slow him down at the time he uses it, he always regains it.

Im not ignoring what your trying to say. Your saying he didnt lose his powers but I while I may not be a huge Flash fan like you remember reading these comics and remember Wally clearly getting his powers restored after Inertia plan semi succeeded trying to reconnect with the Speed Force. (Inertia powers are Time alteration and not Speed, however this is still a power given by the Speed Force.)

No, it was never shown that Wally's powers were "restored" by Inertia's machine. I can show you two instances of Wally being brought back to Earth and neither shows his powers suddenly remanifesting.

Inertia's powers were only time related after Zoom freed him from his speed stolen state. That should be irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

Wally can still movement of any kind. Even a character just about to attack him in a split second. So that scan with Cheetah as you can see she is attacking him so in that split second he steals her speed. Any movement of any kind Wally can steal. Or any connection with the Speed Force. Wally cannot steal speed from a Rock! Or something with no motion. Now if his connection with the speed force was strong enough he could steal the speed of the entire earth 24 hour rotation but I doubt he would do that because who knows what would happen to the earth.

Inertia does have a conneciton to the speed force. You brought up Velocity 9 I didnt say anything about it. (it really had nothing to do with the topic.) Its not orginally part of Inertias power set. He has Time Alteration and its a power he got from the Speed Force something similar to Hunter Zolomon? So Im confused. Its a experimental drug made by Vandel Savage givin 2 Inertia by deathstroke.

Wally actually has speed stolen the entire motion of the Earth:

When Wally speed stole Inertia in the scan I gave you, his only speed power was from Velocity 9. My point was that Wally can steal any kind of speed -- Mechanical speed (Amazo) Magical Speed (Cheetah) Drug related speed (Inertia) or Speed Force enhanced speed (all the speedsters). If it moves, he can speed steal it. It doesn't have to be CURRENTLY moving for him to do so -- he can take away its ability to create its own speed like he did with Inertia.

That distance Wally is standing from Mirror Master is maybe about a meter or 2 away. Light travels 186000 miles per second. Well we know their is 1609.344 meters in 1 Mile. So you multiply that number by the distance light travels in 1 second and you get 299792458 meters per second. However you getting too far by multiplying the factor by a picosecond. Theirs no need to 2 do that. I believe the statement was he stopped it a picosecond ago! (which is dumb because by the time Mirror Master could even hear the words coming from Wallys mouth seconds have passed already) Bascially, he meant he disarmed the gun in that moment! (Meaning it took 1 picosecond for him to disarm it, not travel.) Lets see here Light travels 982,080,000 feet per second -- or 11,784,960,000 inches. In a billionth of a second, one nanosecond, photons of light travel just a bit less than a foot. In a Picosecond Light travels 1/1000 of a foot. Now their is roughly 3 meters in 1 foot. So it would take 3000 picoseconds for light 2 travel 1 meter. (thats 3000 times the speed of light) However, The comic doesnt state Wally reacted a picosecond ago and disarmed the gun in a picosecond. This is why I think your going to far. Unless Clearly stated by the comic!

You're playing semantics. He clearly states he performed the action in the previous picosecond, and we all know that Wally can most definitely count and think in Picoseconds as shown from previous feats. It's logically consistent.

Also. Light travels faster than the human eye can see. Example turn on a light bulb in a closed room and try to see when the light hits the wall behind you. I bet you cant. Light would fill up the entire room before you even noticed it touched the wall.. Thats how fast Light is at that instant. My guess is Wally reacted super fast and moved at light speed and back before Mirror Master even new what was going on. And the gun was disarmed in a picosecond. Not that Wally reacted in a Picosecond and disarmed it and moved back in a picosecond. That would be insane! ( Wally would have been moving 6000 times the speed of light to move their and back!) Thats if the distance is only 1 meter away. Looks maybe 2 meters 2 me. That would mean Wally traveled 12,000 times the speed of Light in a picosecond. If this is the case Wally would never have any challenge in the DCU at all. No point to have villians. I have to extremely disagree with you here.

Your guess is an intentional obfuscation to diminish the feat.

Wally clearly didn't have an trouble with Mirror Master despite him having massive prep in this scenario.

Wally is inconsistently written. Writers have outright said he's the hardest hero to write for because of how absurdly fast he is, so they intentionally job him or find ways to exclude him from JL missions. This happens with all heroes, really. They have their highs and lows. We assume Wally fights to the best of his ability (within his morals) -- he can clearly do things in picosecond intervals within his morals when he's fighting to the best of his ability.

On to the topic: because the debate will be never ending.

Sense Wally is too inconstant to use with your rules: moving at 6666 times the speed of light in picoseconds to having trouble with Gorilla God. Im going to use the Wally I know. Im not making fun at you or anything (I say it with respect) its just too inconstant for me to use. Also I am not a die hard Flash reader but I do read variety of comics. So...

The only time Wally struggled with Grodd after he got his Kobra related powerup was when he lost his memory via the Spectre and had to relearn his powers. Wally WAS too powerful for his general villains like Grodd. Waid made that clear when he had him beat the tar out of Mongul like a chump.

I do know alot about the Flash but I never made such claims. At no point in our conversation did I ever state I read all the Flash comics.

By the way, you said this:

"I just take my time to read everything over again and again. So I know I am right about this and you can argue with me all you want but I know what Im talking about."

Copy and past part of that if you don't believe me, that was in your post.

You said you've taken your time and read everything over and over again and that's why you can't be wrong. The difference is I actually have read everything regarding Wally West's Flash run, so I don't think you have a claim to be absolutely right better than I do. You don't provide scans or issue numbers -- you provide vague memories of stuff that did happen, which implies you read some of the comics but don't remember them accurately. It's not a crime, but you shouldn't say you're absolutely right and that you know what you're talking about moreso than I do when I go to lengths to provide scans and issues where what I'm talking about happened.

To me it comes down to comparing stats. In character! Both Wally and Superman would hold back not wanting to really harm the other. However Wally is less likely to go all out in a attempt to kill Superman as Superman would be to using enough power to put him down. I see Superman winning with Morals on. Because Wally would not be willing go to far and try to kill Superman. And against Superman he would have 2.

In what world would Superman be more likely to go all out moreso than Wally? I think they're both unlikely to go full force on each other and that's why Wally decisively wins. Wally has a tool, called Speed Steal, which is a painless way to defeat and enemy. Heck, he's used it to RELIEVE Girder's pain before:

While I agree that Wally probably wouldn't go all out and start punching Superman as hard as he could to KO him, I don't believe Superman would try to kill Wally either. They'd both try to win the fight, but Wally is the only one who can do it without hurting his opponent via Speed Steal, and that's a massive advantage.

Superman vs Wally without Morals: Wally wins. Enough speed force and without reguard to Supermans life. Wally would go all out. I dont think Superman could Tank that! Or keep up!

I agree. Without morals, Wally could just do this:

As his phasing has worked on Superman before, as well. It'd be a quick fight.

Superman vs Wally without Morals and Bloodlusted! Superman wins. Superman disguarding life itself and wanting to kill everything in sight pretty much means the end of the earth before (I feel) Wally can stop him. In a straight up fight Wally would win but Superman would not go down easy and Wally would eventually get in the way of Superman being bloodlusted. Wally while durable would not survive the destruction of the planet.

Without Morals and Bloodlust are basically the same thing. Superman disregarding life is irrelevant (he would disregard life with morals off) because he gets his brain removed from his head before he can comprehend that the fight has started.

On to the stats: Up first is Superman!

Durability. Superman in cannon comics can withstand roughly (with no extra enhancements at base levels and low feats) 10 Octillion megatons of damage!!!!!!! Surviving a supernova blast will do that. Sense a supernovas destructive force comes to 10 octillion megatons! However it is likely Superman can withstand much more! (Example:Two planets crashing into each other with Superman in the middle.)

Speed: With nanosecond reaction time and capable of keeping up with Flash speed. (None Flight speed) Supermans speed comes too- 9.4 billion km/hr (this was timed by Maxwell Lord as Superman flew to the Sun and Back in under 2 minutes along with Wonder Woman). According to Batman: Superman can travel 17 billion km/hr. Possiblly much faster. And nobody argues with Batmans facts! So.... Supermans base speed comes to a impressive 17 billion km/hr. Not Flight time!

Strength- Superman has held up the earth and moved it. With no enhancements Superman still has the ability to move the earth. Supermans strength in cannon comics comes too -6.6 sexitillion tons! In Our Worlds at War Superman actually spent 15 minutes inside the sun. When he resurfaced Superman was capable to effortlessly move planets!

Damage output!: Superman can use Infinite Mass Punch! By vibrating his body just under light speed Supermans damage output can destroy entire planets causing a killer 10 octillion tons of damage! The same amount as a supernova! Supermans heat vision (while it drains his solar energy faster, than his other abilities) Can cover all that he sees! Like when Supermans he vision engulfed a planet! Also.... Supermans heat vision can reach temperatures hotter than the sun! If he wanted to he can destroy entire planets with his heat vision! Supermans heat vision can even work mircoscopic causing lobotomy. Even without villians noticing it ever happened.

Superman did not survive a supernova, he survived a medium sized star exploding. He was also KO'd for a significant amount of time by it, which would lose him the fight. Also also, he didn't take the full force of the blast -- he took merely an infinitesimal fraction of it because, well, he is very small relative to a star.

I don't believe Superman has ever vibrated his body at lightspeed to use the IMP(I know he has vibrated invisible and to phase, but that's not the same thing). The only time he ever used the IMP was on the Shadow Moon and it took time for him to build up the speed -- significantly more time than it takes Wally to go FTL.

When Superman's vision engulfed the planet, it was akin to a warm breeze. When he spreads it out it vastly weakens. Superman cannot destroy planets with his heat vision.

I don't believe Superman is sundipped for this battle.

Durability: Flashes Durability varies on the amount the Speed Force provides him. (Speed Force Aura) Under, Normal conditions Flashes Durability comes too less than bullet piercing defense but just under the speed of light Flash can withstand impact of 10 octillion megatons. Flash also has self-sestenance making him capable of surviving the harshness of space.

Speed: With picosecond, femtosecond and even attosecond reaction. Flashes speed varies! He can infinitely increasing to almost any speed he desires! It was even stated Wally could reach any speed he imagines. (This does not include reaching any speed he desires in a Picosecond or Femtosecond.) Thats just reaction time. However the faster Flash moves.... time slow downs and he can react in attoseconds (which is 1 quintillionth of a second!). However....Flash must be already moving at those speeds for time to be warped. Flash cannot move trillions of times light speed in 1 femtosecond unless he is already moving at those speeds. It was stated Flash casually travels at 500 times the Speed of Light! Flash is so fast he was able to easily save and carry over half a million people 35 miles away from a Nuclear Warhead that had already detonated including the ones at ground zero in only 100 picoseconds, and even move so fast that he exists everywhere at once. As you seen with Dreds scan!

Now dont get me wrong it does not take long for Flash to reach those speeds but most of Flashes fast reaction time involves him already moving at extremely high speeds. Its speed said Flash moves faster than thought and moves so fast Light seems to be standing still!!!! In one arc Flash was able to defeat death itself (the Black Flash) by outracing it to the end of time/space, past entropy, the next Big Bang and into the next Universe. To put this in perspective, one attosecond is to one second, what one second is to the age of the universe.), and he has even reacted and calculated by the zeptosecond (Which is one trillionth of one billionth of one second.) Simply put their is no limit to Flashes speed!

Strength: Flash has not shown super strength feats. However by using enough speed he doesnt need it to cause widespread damage!

Damage output: Infinite mass punch comes in at a awesome 10 octillion megatons of damage!

On durability, Wally's Speed Suit has blocked bullets before when he wasn't able to move, for whatever it's worth.

Flash has shown a couple of "Super strength" feats like when he picked up an 800 pound rod of Uranium, but you can probably chalk that up to his kinetic control.

His damage output is also more exotic than just straight striking strength. He can atomize/disintegrate people with his phasing and kinetic control if he's bloodlusted.

-Flashes only problem here is that is strongest defense is under light speed with his infinite mass punch. Basically anything over light speed is weightless! So Flash needs to stay under light speed to cause massive damage or gain massive durability. Sense this varies by the Speed Force and Flash has to maintain that speed to match Supermans durability.

Flash, I believe, can operate at massively FTL speeds but lower the speed of his fist to lightspeed to use the IMP just before it hits his target. He did as much vs Professor Zoom, when they covered the distance of an entire room and exchanged blows in a picosecond, which means incredibly higher than light speed, but still IMP'd. I can provide the scans if you need proof.

Both characters strongest attacks are the infinite mass punch. However rarely used they both can put out the same amount of damage. However.... Supermans damage output is much higher without using speed!

The problem with your analysis is you outright ignore Wally's other powers such as offensive phasing and Speed Steal that Superman cannot counter. You can't just compare stats when they have other powers.

#1444 Edited by Jgames (1691 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, this is a really hard match to call XD. Although the only sure way I see superman winning is if he just become a giant douche and destroy the planet. Aside from that, I just wait and see the other hundreths comments sure to come.

#1445 Posted by Jgames (1691 posts) - - Show Bio

#1446 Posted by Omnicrono (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem with your analysis is you outright ignore Wally's other powers such as offensive phasing and Speed Steal that Superman cannot counter. You can't just compare stats when they have other powers.

True... But the problem with many other analyses, I think, is that they ignore Superman's other powers in this fight.

What about cold breath? Heat vision? Does phasing keep Flashes molecules from rapidly cooling or heating to the point of combustion?

And all it really takes is for Superman to land one normal blow, and Flash is out for the count.

No IMP required.

It just seems like the odds of Superman landing a finishing blow before Flash are in the Man of Steel's favor.

#1447 Edited by SpectresWrath01 (208 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I usually make a rough draft to remove errors. Plz give me more time after post is posted before you reply. Because I make changes.

Onto the battle at hand.

1st. Dont get upset bro. I am not trying to be insulting to you. I hope you dont take it personal because I don't. Also I understand debates can be frustrating, trying to get your point across or correct errors but still no reason to be upset. "IF you are upset....its hard to tell just be reading someones post; I have no idea on whether someone is being a di** or what not. (BUT I AM NOT) So I am flat out telling you I mean no offense by my posts. If you disagree that's fine by me.

2nd. I am not saying I am without memory error and I do make mistakes but I guess what I should have said is I feel strongly about this happening and I recall that it did happen! I am not saying, Im better than you or I know more than you about Wally or anything. My intent was not so much that you are wrong, as to I strongly believe I am correct! So apologize if that post by me offended you but my intentions were not negative to you. Nor were my intentions implying I know everything about the Flash or I read all the Flash comics. I dont think theirs anybody alive that has read every Flash comic lol. ( that would be kind of ridiculous dont you think?)

Back to debating.

It is outright stated by both Max and Wally that he merged with the Speed Force and came back. Kobra's blast killed him but he came back because he had to save Linda. There was also the time when the Black Flash took Linda into the Speed Force -- and we know when the Black Flash hits you, you're dead. He defeated the Black Flash (raced to the end of time), went back into the speed force, and pulled linda back with him. He clearly is capable of merging and coming back from the Speed Force if he absolutely has to.

Okay, now I know what you are talking about. Wally merged with the speed force and escaped was after the IC arc. And that scan I posted was prior to the event your talking about. So were talking about two different timelines here. Barry at that time was the only Flash to escape after merging with it, after being dead for a prolonged time. When Wally did it, it was intentional. Were talking about 2 different things here.

Wally had his powers before that, though.

The machine DID cause a disruption in the Speed Force that pulled Wally and his family back, but it was not shown rekindling his powers because he never lost them. Wally has lent out his speed plenty of times and, while it DOES slow him down at the time he uses it, he always regains it.

Ok. I do have a difference of opinion here. I recall Wally getting his powers back and Bart absorbing the Speed Force. The other flashes helped. Bart got the Flash suit. Bart new found power resulted in him not using his powers for a Year. One year ARC. And Wally coming back to earth and when that happened the Speed Force left Bart and was then Mainlined. Im am like 99 percent sure this happened like this. If not well then we have a difference of opinions here and one that wont be resolved. I am going to stick to my guns about this. Question, If Wally never lost his powers why didnt he bring his Family back to earth after IC? Why would Bart say I was the only one that can still run? Why were they talking about absorbing the Speed Force, why did Bart Involunteer to do it? And if he didnt do it, how did he age so fast? Barts powers were amped in IC no doubt their! Im saying he did absorb the Speed Force and your saying he didnt. My impression of reading these stories one after another implies that he did and Wally returning by a machine and not on his own also implies this to me. The fact that when Wally returned and the Speed Force was Mainlined implies powers returning to him, does it not?? So why didnt Wally return with his family on his own if he still had his speed? Alot of people lost their powers in the IC and thats what the whole One Year Arc was about? Or am I wrong? Granted I can see how some of this can seem like I am making assumptions but for me. Thats what feels like happened leading up to Inertia and Wallys return.

When Wally speed stole Inertia in the scan I gave you, his only speed power was from Velocity 9. My point was that Wally can steal any kind of speed -- Mechanical speed (Amazo) Magical Speed (Cheetah) Drug related speed (Inertia) or Speed Force enhanced speed (all the speedsters). If it moves, he can speed steal it. It doesn't have to be CURRENTLY moving for him to do so -- he can take away its ability to create its own speed like he did with Inertia.

In the scan you just posted! Wally absorbs kinetic energy! This is what his speed drain is all about correct? So if their is no kinetic energy how can wally drain it? This is the problem I am having. I think you are trying to say he can do it with no kinetic around??? I am unsure about this now. But from what I understand he drains kinetic energy to give him a speed boost and Wallys opponents lose that kinetic energy, which is a product/generated by movement. If you believe this to be wrong let me know. My problem is your saying Wally can absorb something that isnt there?

You're playing semantics. He clearly states he performed the action in the previous picosecond, and we all know that Wally can most definitely count and think in Picoseconds as shown from previous feats. It's logically consistent

Well I do have a problem with this....first off Im not playing semantics-(arising from two different meanings?). Im stating Wally needs to be in high speed to do this and your saying he doesnt. Your saying Wally can react in Picoseconds and move infinitely fast without prep time. I say thats wrong.

Infact, Barry who I believe is close in power to Wally flat out states this in Flashpoint that he needs Prep time while talking to Batman. He then goes on to say Superman is the most powerful being int he Universe.

Second show a scan with Flash in no motion, not thinking in picoseconds, not already moving in picoseconds but from zero to picosecond reaction time to doing a feat much faster than FLT in a picosecond. I strongly disagree with this. Make sure the scan is extremely clear about this and Ill yield the topic.

I believe Flash can react in picoseconds, think in picoseconds. And while in speed can react at extremely fast speeds in picoseconds but not zero to thousands of times light speed in a picosecond. While he is already sped up I think he can achieve almost any feat in speed.

So just show me a scan where he is doing nothing and reacts in a picosecond and does thousands of times light speed also in a picosecond. lol I think your going to have trouble finding it. He must not already be in speed for me to agree with this. And no vague or anything that can be mistranslated. Also I need the comic number and Arc. Because some scans and stories give prep time before the moment of the scan.

Copy and past part of that if you don't believe me, that was in your post.

You said you've taken your time and read everything over and over again and that's why you can't be wrong. The difference is I actually have read everything regarding Wally West's Flash run, so I don't think you have a claim to be absolutely right better than I do. You don't provide scans or issue numbers -- you provide vague memories of stuff that did happen, which implies you read some of the comics but don't remember them accurately. It's not a crime, but you shouldn't say you're absolutely right and that you know what you're talking about moreso than I do when I go to lengths to provide scans and issues where what I'm talking about happened.

I think your reading to much into my post. Granted my post here is flawed but I am not trying to say what your accusing me of! My Intent was that, I am very confident and sure of myself. That was the intent and nothing more but I can see, how I wrote it, makes you feel that way. I was not trying to say my memory on the topic is better than yours. As far as claiming myself to be absolutely correct. Your correct, I should word it better or watch how I type things. Its meaning in my mind when I typed it was for a boost in my assurance. Also to make you think about it and see where Im coming from and how I came to my conclusions instead of ranting on about how wrong this or that is!!!!

Another thing. Posting scans does not imply knowledge of the topic. You search the web or have a comic database to research for certain scans. I prefer my comics the old fashion way! The comic book! The one ment for reading. I dont see how providing scans makes a big difference? (one doesn't gain knowledge by posting scans???). It really has no merit at all. Flooding a page with scans just tells me you have resources on the internet.

Personally, I rather not spend time searching the web for scans. Two, id rather not pull out my comics, scan them, and go through all that work to prove something. Its a waste of time and time consuming. Listing Issues. Well I have clearly stated the events I am talking about; so I dont see why you are questioning that. The fact you were talking about Black Flash while I was talking about IC tells me we are both in error. (misunderstandings on both sides) If you really want I can go through my comics spend a shit load of time and give you comic issue #'s and what event they happened? Lol? Its not a big big deal but its time consuming. I've already stated the arcs I recall them happening. Personally, I dont think Wallys merging is the same as Barrys. Wally did it but it did it to save Linda.

Moreso- you insult me by saying I have vague memories? How else are you suppose to recall what happens in past events. Something tells me you have more research tips than I do....which is cheating IMO. I dunno I go by my own readings and understands of things, I really don't see how else your suppose to do it?? Telling me this, makes me think you read less than I do? If your not basing your knowledge by memory, then what are you basing it off of???? I would not use other peoples facts or info because you have no idea where they got their info and maybe they misunderstood it. I rely on myself and myself only. That way if I do make a mistake. I learn from it! Im not saying your doing this but Im curious to why someone would question ones memory on a topic? It implies you are not relying on just reading??? Personally, I think thats bad because I see major screw ups online. Espeically, when their talking about my two favorites. Spectre/Superman.

Another thing. Misunderstandings are world wide. You are correct when you said I shouldnt say "Im absolutely correct" because nobody is without error. Even though my intent was not negative, I am not without flaws. Take the Bible for example: Do you have any Idea how many people fight over different understanding of how that is written! I think I made my point! lol Its completely possible me and you both read the same crap and came to two different conclusions. Which is what I am pretty sure happened. You do seem to be quite knowledgeable on the topic but you clearly disguard Barts comment and the One Year Arc. If Bart got no boost in power and all he did was put on a suit why did he refuse to use his powers? And why did Wally wait for a l machine to bring him back? If you ask me that doesnt make sense if he still had all his powers intact.

While I agree that Wally probably wouldn't go all out and start punching Superman as hard as he could to KO him, I don't believe Superman would try to kill Wally either. They'd both try to win the fight, but Wally is the only one who can do it without hurting his opponent via Speed Steal, and that's a massive advantage.

You say I am ignoring Wallys other powers. Well I think your ignoring alot of Supermans powers. I am a Superman fan and I read more Superman and Spectre comics than the average person. I actually own some of the rarest Supermans and Spectre comics. I even own Spectres, first Appearance in more Fun Comics! Its beat up to hell but I have one! And the 1st appearance of Brainiac. Its valued at $3000.

When it comes to the Spectre I own his entire collection (Spectres own series I mean). From the 1st series which was 10 issues. To the Wrath of Spectre which is a 4 part mini series and also 10 issue series in Adverture comics. They both tell the same story. The 2nd Series which is 31 issues. The 3rd series the longest running one at 62 issues. And the 4th series staring Hal Jordan as the Spectre in 27 issues. Excuse the numbers if the are off by 1. Id have to pull them out going by memory here but I think the number is correct.

When it comes to Superman, well I have too many to list but everything from COIE and on, I own. I also have a Justice League 1 sketch signed by Geoff Johns value 250, and Action comics 1 sketch signed by Morales. Valued at 250. Its rating is a 9.8 and signed so I wouldnt let it go for anything under 1000. If you have doubts check my facebook page. My cover page is me shaking hands with Morales.

https://www.facebook.com/john.newman.92372446 This is my Facebook if you have doubts, the picture is right there!

Sorry about the rant but I felt it was important to show my loyality to reading the comics (sense you questioned me by not providing scans???). If this doesnt sway you I will take a picture of every comic in my house which goes up to thousand+.

While I do think this fight is extremely close. Wally isnt the only one with ridiculous feats. One, Wally phasing his hand through Supermans head will have no effect. Everything about Superman is invulnerable, (even his brain)! Two, the only attack Wally has to KO Superman is The Infinite Mass Punch! Three, While Wallys Speed Steal gives him a early start advantage....he never uses it at the start of fights anyway....... but while it gives him a advantage Wallys attacks are useless unless he is doing Light speed attacks! Four, While Wally is much, much faster than Superman. No question there! (Hell, Wally can move and Superman wont even notice him.) But for Wally to do enough damage he needs to Slow down! Faster than Light attacks will be less damage than the Infinite Mass Punch! Five, the amount of Damage Wally needs to do just to take Superman out is extreme! I do not believe Wally can prevent Supermans heat vision if he gets to close and I cant see Wally not getting close to Stop Superman from flying straight up! If Superman can ever at any point in time fly straight up the FIGHT IS OVER!!!!!!

The samething happened when Bart attacked Superboy Prime. Prime just flew away before Bart could do enough damage! (IC Arc Issue number 7) Im not saying Wally doesnt have the ability to KO him but I think he would need to put out 100% to stop Superman before Superman has anytime to react and I dont think Wally can do that.

Without Morals and Bloodlust are basically the same thing. Superman disregarding life is irrelevant (he would disregard life with morals off) because he gets his brain removed from his head before he can comprehend that the fight has started.

This is wrong Supermans Brain is Invulnerable and protected by a skin tight forcefield. Phasing through his head would have no effect. (Amazo has no such protection unless he absorbs powers. Also Amazos power steal is weaker than the person he steals them from.)

While Wally attempts this Superman can lobotmize him in that instant. Once Wally is in Supermans seeing range! At any moment Superman can use his Instant lobotomy on him! Wally would lose all Brain Functions and be down. And the sweet part about it is; all Wally has to do is move in Supermans seeing range for it to happen. Its mircoscopic so Wally wont even know its happening (therefore wont dodge it). And we all know Superman has Super Vision. Superman can hear Wally on the other side of the planet and see through anything! Wally doesnt have much room here except to be constantly running or moving faster than Superman perceive him. Its his only chance! Supermans sight is so impressive he can actually see Wallys Soul!

As his phasing has worked on Superman before, as well. It'd be a quick fight.

You...... Obviously dont know Superman that well to be saying this. If you dont believe me read Flashpoint issue 3. Barry Allen clearly states this while talking to Batman. He needs prep time if his powers are at full! This is the reason why one minute Speedsters own everything and the next they have trouble with Captain Cold, Mirror Master, Grod, Weather Wizard, ect.

A Bloodlusted Superman is more likely to destroy planets and kill everything in sight. Yes, Superman can destroy a planet with heat vision. If you think Supermans Heat vision doesnt get hotter than the sun well your wrong their. It does! And he can widen his range and it does not decrease its power! It all depeneds on Superman. The more powerful the Heat Vision the faster it drains his power. This video states everything Ive been saying about Superman and provides scans and research in it. This way I dont have too. The scans are in the video.

A decent video made by death battle: Skip to 8:49 for Supermans feats. These are just some I listed. And the video editors made one mistaken it is true while in space zero gravity affects the weight of objects like Planets and their math is correct. However they forgot planets have their own gravity. Reguardless of being in space and weightless planets would retain its massive weight. For Superman to move the earth he needs to be in earths atmosphere or connected to it so the weight remains the same! ALot of this I agree with. Just a few things I disagree with.

Such as- Torquasm vo- Mental barrier protects Superman from mental attacks on a deep level. Powerful enough to even impressive the Martian Manhunter. He can also use this to make illusions and enter inside of people.

Torquasm Rao- Allows Superman to enter and fight on the astral plane. This is outside of time itself and in this state he can keep up with Flash. Its his most powerful feat. In this form Wally would have to destroy his soul which Wally cannot do. This move does require some prep time but if Wally leaves him motion less then a BL and Morals of Superman would jump right into it.

Heat Vision- Fact you might not know. Supermans heat vision does not have to be visible. Superman can make his heat vision invisible to the human eye and with exact precision, mircoscopic, and x-ray vision Superman can use his instant lobotomy on almost any opponent. Superman must understand how the brain functions to do this so alien brains can be foreign to him and it might not work. Human like brains stand no chance. Superman can do this without even leaving a burn mark on opponents.

Invulnerability- This is a process that happens inside Supermans body. As Supermans cells absorb sunlight it grants him nigh-invulnerability to everything about him. Its a aura that is mostly seen to protect the outside of his body. However, Superman can control this aura at will, likewise this aura is protecting everything side Superman. Anything that is powered by solar radiation is protected. Superboy attempted this in Our Worlds at War when he entered Supermans body breifly and punched one of Supermans cells. It resulted in Superboy hurting his hand to the point he thought it was broke.

Absorption- Supermans body absorbs energy at will. Most of the time this is Yellow sunlight however, most energy in the cosmos is provided by Solar energy. Superman has shown to absorb heat from rocks, energy from leaf, electricity and other forms of energy. However this depends on two factors. 1. The source of the energy must have some connection to solar energy. 2. Superman's own mind. Supermans powers differ at one point he built a suit that allowed him to access some of his other powers and absorb different forms of energy altogether. The suit amped Supermans own ability to do this. But because Superman at a young age put limits on his abilities. Superman sense then has been trying to unlock his full potential. Superman can also unlock these powers by absorbing more sunlight. Superman doesnt do this in fear he wont be able to control it and he will harm someone but can do it. Supermans absorption powers are so powerful that he has fully restored his entire body in a instant after having his body completely destoryed and being nothing but bones left. Apparently even Supermans bone cells absorb energy. Also Supermans cells stay active he can absorb energy at will if he focuses but he doesnt need 2. His cells absorb energy without Superman needing to doing anything at all.

Quick fight I think not. Phasing out Supermans brain will not work unless the amount of force is stronger than Supermans invulnerability.

Also Id like to add Zoom has faced Wonder Woman while Wonder Woman was Blind and still lost! Zoom in general causes Flash alot of trouble and has even succeeded against them.

#1448 Posted by Saren (25890 posts) - - Show Bio

I stopped reading after someone tried using Death Battle as an argument.

Moderator
#1449 Posted by Lvenger (20677 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: I stopped reading after the first paragraph. I doubt what's being discussed here will register with the poster above.

#1450 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio