Flash vs. Runner

@darthaznable: I had to learn the hard way that Squirrel girls brother Wally is an unstoppable force.

They're both essentially speedsters... what are Runner's feats?

Beat up Silver Surfer and Thanos. Death dislikes him so much that he can't die.

If Flash can harm or incapacitate him, then Flash. Otherwise, stalemate, or Runner.

If Flash can harm or incapacitate him, then Flash. Otherwise, stalemate, or Runner.

@captnmcdeadpool: To clarify, if speed-stealing or dumping him into the speed-force would work, I'd favor Flash. If for some reason they'd prove ineffective, I'd go with Runner.

@captnmcdeadpool: I'm not saying they wouldn't, I'm just not 100%(maybe someone else could clarify why they would or would not). His most impressive feats of speed-stealing that I know of, are an entire planet, and I've heard say that his showing where he goes back in time against Anti-Monitor, he actually utilizes the ability against him. I didn't gather that personally from the illustration, but people swear by it.

Insofar as dumping Runner into the speed-force, the only reservation I have is that Superboy-Prime broke out of it. I don't know whether to chalk that up to it being something someone sufficiently powerful can replicate, or if it's just because "he's Superboy-Prime, and therefor does ridiculous crap".

@dredeuced: Thanks. By the way, I know he lent speed to the heroes fighting Anti-Monitor, but did he actually take any of the Anti-Monitor's kinetic energy(as I've often heard)?

@dredeuced: He only traveled universes when on the Guardian amp.

I'm not saying they wouldn't, I'm just not 100%(maybe someone else could clarify why they would or would not). His most impressive feats of speed-stealing that I know of, are an entire planet,

From Human Race? My understanding is that the Gambler's tech allowed that.

and I've heard say that his showing where he goes back in time against Anti-Monitor, he actually utilizes the ability against him. I didn't gather that personally from the illustration, but people swear by it.

Yeah, I didn't get that from the scans either.

Insofar as dumping Runner into the speed-force, the only reservation I have is that Superboy-Prime broke out of it. I don't know whether to chalk that up to it being something someone sufficiently powerful can replicate, or if it's just because "he's Superboy-Prime, and therefor does ridiculous crap".

In terms of the Runner's level of speed, I suppose it depends on your interpretation of some of his feats. Years ago, Mark Gruenwald wrote Quasar 58. That comic featured a rematch between the Runner and Makkari (the Runner previously won). In this race, featuring a certain "Buried Alien" (the whole comic appears to be Mark Grunewald's nod to Barry Allan...), in order to close the gap quickly between himself and the Runner, Makkari used the "Grossgumbeekian technique of speed" and was able to achieve "the ultimate speed in the universe".

The funny part? The writer chose the speed of light as the ultimate speed in the universe. Of course, this would invalidate all of, for example, Silver Surfer's prior faster than light speed feats that allowed him to travel time. However, seeing as the feat happened in the 616 universe and the writer under sold (by a long shot I'd say) the ultimate speed in the universe, one could just say, what the writer intended was for Makkari to...achieve the ultimate speed....in the universe, despite assigning light speed as that speed. A strict interpretation of the feat, however, does not allow for this. However, at the end of the race, the Runner is shown interacting with ease with Makkari at the "ultimate speed" and also with the Grand Master who, according to him, "transcends time and space". One of the consistencies of noticed, until Nu 52 Barry, was that a character had to at least be moving at the speed of light in order to move through time. This is consistent in both the DC and Marvel universe. Everyone else around them in the feats below is shown frozen in time. Personally, I don't have a problem chalking up the speed of light as the ultimate speed as poor writing but at the same time, I don't think it undermines the intent the writer had...which is that Makarri achieved, "the ultimate possible speed in the universe". And Runner, although slightly beat, was still able to interact with Makarri at said speed.

EDIT: additionally, I place Makkari, Runner and Zoom II in the reaction speed class of holy s*&#! speed, as the writer's of each of these characters all appear to be presenting these guys at ludicrous speeds.

@captnmcdeadpool: Flash speed stole the entire planet Earth during Obsidian Age, a JLA arc. During Human Race the speed of Earth and Radioland was given to him more than stolen.

The problem with all those listed characters is you have to make really broad assumptions and guesses at what they're capable of, unless Runner has the Space Gem. No one could argue his superiority in speed with that as he subconsciously became omnipresent when he has that. Without it I contest anyone to prove Runner moves faster or reacts better than Wally.

@captnmcdeadpool: Yeah, I see what you mean. When a writer in Marvel says someone's going lightspeed, he's actually going infinite speed for it to make sense for him to go that fast, but the Writer in DC says Wally is going "near light speed" then Wally's going near light speed instead of 14trillion time lightspeed. It's a double standard.

Not a double standard, simply comes down to what the writer of each feat was driving at. In JLA 89, the writer clearly meant for the character to moving just under the speed of light. Yet, on these forums, folks routinely assign speeds of 13 to 14 trillion x the speed of light for that particular feat.

Despite the clear intent of the writer.

Yet, Gruenwald, who pushed concepts like hyperspace as the only possible means of achieving faster than light speeds (a fictional concept, mind you...)...erroneously assigns the speed of light as the fastest possible speed in the universe, and some try to nerf it, holding to a strict interpretation as only the speed of light.

If that is the hypocrisy you are referring to, then we agree. Gruenwald clearly intended for the character to...achieve the fastest speed possible in the universe.

That race happened in the mid 80s, and ignored a lot of the things that Runner and Surfer had done and assumed light speed was the fastest speed there is, because that's how it works in real life.

I agree that Gruenwald tried to make over the top feats as plausible, scientifically accurate as possible, but I seem to recall that even some radio waves travel up to 300 x the speed of light in the vacuum of space? What we used to think was instantaneous has a very quantifiable number: 186, 000 m/second. Gruewald's problem was that he failed, like you said, not only to recognize some of the earlier feats of really fast characters at Marvel, he tried to rationalize comic feats by holding as closely to known scientific truths as he possibly could.

*shrugs*

It's comics.

Makkari went lightspeed and won a race he shouldn't have won by just being able to go lightspeed. It's inconsistency, it doesn't count as going faster than light for the same reason Wally in the nuke scan doesn't really count as going 14 trillion times lightspeed, because the text on the very same page tells you how fast he was going.

Yet, folks around here still insist Wally was indeed moving 14 trillion x faster than light. Again, it comes down to the intent the writer was trying to get across. Both writers did so imperfectly. But the intent is clear. Wally was moving a hairs breadth short of light; Makkari was moving at the fastest possible speed in the universe.

When Runner has the Space Gem he can appear anywhere in the universe as fast as he wants, as per Thanos' assessment of his ability. The Space Gem grants omnipresence when appropriately used, and you can't outrun omnipresence.

Mental teleportation. And no, I don't know that any character could beat that.

Hunter Zolomon is so fast that Wally cannot perceive him if Hunter so chooses it. Bloodlusted Wally couldn't land a punch on him when he was standing still and using 1 hand. Wally had stolen 3 speedsters worth of speed and Zolomon, while holding back, was still a blur to Wally.

But...

Hunter Zolomon's speed is no more quantifiable than some of the speed feats that are dismissed around here. Yet, the intent of the writer in Blitz was clear. Although a specific speed is never mentioned for Zolomon, the intent clearly indicated that Zolomon was supposed to be faster than Wally. Additionally, amped on the kinetic energy of 3 speedsters, all it resulted in was Wally moving at sub-temporal speeds.

???

Yet, Wally has moved through time under his own power numerous times prior to Blitz.

Really, Dredeuced, interpreting comic book feats often comes down to what the writer intended to get across. The obvious discrepancies in Blitz in no way diminish the fact that the author of that book was clearly trying to indicate Zolomon as faster than Wally. Holding to a strict interpretation of feats can sometimes lead to problems. Again, you have to read between the lines.

Runner should win, running is his life and key to him immortally.

Flash has more feats to support his special skills but Runner outclasses The Flash by being an Elder of the Universe, who are all banned from Death's domain so Flash can't kill the Runner. Likewise, the Speed Force is a DCU construct so if the fight takes place in Marvel, the Flash shouldn't be able to draw the Speed Force from others. The Runner has more diverse powerset, can manipulate matter, affect emotions, augment his own abilities and travel faster than SS, meaning traversing Hyperspace. And the Runner runs on air as well but via levitation rather than constant movement. The Flash may even end up being portrayed as faster but I can't think of any trick that would allow him a victory. And then even the Flash's recent showings of instantaneous complex problem solving would run up against the Runner's cosmic awareness. A good fight, victory to the Runner for being unkillable and controlling matter and emotions.

@captnmcdeadpool: Hyperspace is specifically an idea brought up so that you can travel the universe without having to go FTL, so bringing up Hyperspace is actually contrary to your point.

No, I brought up hyperspace as evidence that Gruenwald tried to establish a somewhat believable means of achieving FTL travel. You missed my point on that one.

You are clearly operating under a double standard. The writer explicitly states light speed in the very same panel where you underline "ultimate" speed. In his mind, lightspeed is the ultimate speed because that's how it works in real life.

No. I see clearly. But you seem to miss the fact that "ultimate speed" in the Marvel universe is faster than the speed of light. You admitted as much in your previous statement about prior characters having feats greater than this.

It's inconsistent with the rest of cosmic marvel, and makes it an irrelevant feat

How is it inconsistent with the rest of Marvel cosmic?

-- which you don't want it to be. He clearly intended light speed to be the fastest speed. Just like how the DC writer clearly intended Wally to save 500,000 people in 0.0001 Microseconds. They intended for both things to be true, when they can't be.

But you seem to be missing the fact that he also intended "light speed" to be the greatest speed in the universe.

And that's the joke, really. The Wally feat is internally inconsistent, the comic is only inconsistent in the context of other feats in Marvel -- and this happens all the time. You pretty much can't find a hero comic that doesn't levy some inconsistency with another comic in the universe. For that one comic, lightspeed was enough to beat The Runner. Generally speaking, it isn't, Makarri otherwise isn't fast enough to win.

Which I already previously stated. There are inconsistencies in every book. You have to read between the lines.

You can't just go "The writer intended for Wally to go slower than lightspeed" when the writer ALSO intended Makkari to be going lightspeed. He says lightspeed -- he assumes lightspeed is the ultimate speed, even if he's wrong. Makkari didn't go the "ultimate speed of the universe" because that would imply omnipresence in the context of the rest of Marvel's history, and he was not omnipresent in that feat. He wouldn't need to even be omnipresent to beat Runner in a race.

Yet, the narration clearly says, he achieved the ultimate speed possible in the universe. *shrugs*

That is your interpretation, but clearly not what the writer intended.

You want the feat to be more than it is so you ignore the part that downplays it and focus on the part that makes it sound more impressive than it is. It's astonishingly hypocritical. You are operating under an extreme level of cognitive dissonance to support one side of the argument when it contradicts your opinion on the other.

No. I focus on the what the writer was intending. The only contradiction appears to be the ones you are imposing.

The real joke is when you start looking up Makkari's other showings beyond that race to get some actual context on the character you're supporting. Makkari wasn't going lightspeed when he was racing Runner in that race,

You mean, until he used the "Grossgumbeekian" technique of speed? You seem to have missed that.

right(this becomes obvious when you know about Makkari's speed before said race)? So why would he suddenly have to become infinitely fast to beat Runner, who wasn't even going lightspeed? Turns out, he could just go lightspeed and win the race, like he did, like the author said he did, and like the author ASSUMED was the ultimate speed possible, even when it wasn't.

And you make another point for me. That's just it. Light speed is not the fastest possible speed in the Marvel universe.

What do you mean sub-temporal speeds? You don't just magically start time travelling when you go fast enough in DC -- you are capable of it, but just breaking the lightspeed barrier allows time travel.

No. I'm not.

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Obviously, you're not moving through time if time "nearly stops". Incorrect again.

You're just making things up about Zoom and Wally to support a completely arbitrary point. I don't know what discrepancies in Blitz you're talking about (the one where they ran across every inch of the world before Superman could react? Because that's pretty consistent), but they don't exist. "Reading between the lines," -- is that your way of saying assume things that aren't true?

No, I'm not. There are several discrepancies in Wally's...in every characters...continuity. Most don't need to be dismissed because of said discrepancies. Again. Read between the lines.

If you want to read between then lines then I could just bring up how Barry Allen, in their own comics, was faster than Makkari and The Runner, if you want to go on "author intent." And Wally is clearly, by DC's authors, meant to surpass Barry during Dead heat. QED.

Actually, that comic was Gruenwald's way of passing the torch to Marvel speedsters. Buried Alien sacrificed himself in the DC universe. And gave the nod to the two speedsters in the Marvel universe. And I've seen other interpretations as well.

@captnmcdeadpool:

The Hyperspace point makes my point -- Gruenwald introduced methods of travel that made it so characters didn't have to go FTL to get around the universe. Why would he do that if breaking lightspeed wasn't a big deal? That's the entire point of hyperspace -- to make characters who, on their own, can't go FTL, get around the universe at speeds that would require FTL movement. This is an unimportant tangent, though.

Not really. The notion of hyperspace was introduced by Mark Gruenwald, like you said...who was also a major proponent of the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe.

Written in 1986.

I don't know what motivated Mark to fly in the face of decades of continuity, but for me, continuity trumps the handbooks any day of the week. And while Gruenwald indeed pushed the notion that no one, or no-THING, could exceed the speed of light without hyperspace, authors routinely pushed FTL travel...without ever mentioning hyperspace, George Perez being a big name that comes to mind. Evidently, it was a dream of Mr. Gruenwald to have a more unified, perhaps believable (??) Marvel universe. However, there are numerous contradictions between LOTS of Marvel continuity and the hand books. I get the impression you don't read a lot of Marvel, especially not the Silver Surfer. Rather than go through the whole notion of the Surfer and hyperspace again, here's the link if you really want to educate yourself on hyperspace and the Silver Surfer:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/silver-surfer-154/the-silver-surfer-and-hyperspace-1523129/

The short of it is, Marvel.com says this about hyperspace:

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Notice the underlined part in red? WHEN the Surfer exceeds the speed of light, then he has the choice of entering hyperspace if he so chooses. This also harmonizes with the only explanation in the Surfer's continuity explaining how the Surfer enters hyperspace:

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Gallery

Hyperspace is just an option for the Surfer to get where he wants to go....that much faster. The idea of how the Surfer enters hyperspace is important because you seem to be asserting that he must enter hyperspace first before achieving FTL speeds. A falsehood. Yes, Gruenwald pushed it...but continuity does not support this idea and neither does Marvel.com.

The author either didn't know that Lightspeed wasn't the ultimate speed in Marvel, or didn't think Makkari or Runner could go FTL.

Dredeuced, this is an awfully big, "well maybe he knew or maybe he didn't know...", wouldn't you agree. While admitting that you aren't sure what the author intended here, in the same breath you point to your bias be simply asserting the later notion that Mr. Gruenwald, ".....didn't think Makkari or Runner could go FTL."

See what I mean? You admit you don't what the author intended but operate under the biased assumption that Makkari simply could not achieve FTL speeds.

He didn't write Makkari to be going FTL. He didn't write Runner to be going FTL. If Runner ISN'T MOVING FASTER THAN LIGHT IN THAT COMIC, then why does Makkari have to go beyond lightspeed to win the race? Neither of them are breaking the lightspeed barrier in that race and no feat from that race can even be considered to be a high end showing.

Question, to which I would like a yes or no answer: "Is the speed of light the fastest speed ever achieved by a Marvel character in all Marvel continuity?"

Yes or no please. And yes, I see the point you are making. I'm not ignoring the fact that the author states "the speed of light". I see that. Your answer, please.

It doesn't suddenly become a better feat because he made a mistake(if it even was a mistake). And this bit:

"You mean, until he used the "Grossgumbeekian" technique of speed? You seem to have missed that."

No I didn't, you just missed my point. During the race, before Makkari uses the technique, he is not moving lightspeed. He's moving far slower than lightspeed, because at that point in Marvel history, Makkari isn't naturally a light speed level character.

Agreed. Up to this point, Makkari had (to my knowledge) never exceeded the speed of light. However, as discussed, he used a "power up" if you will to achieve speeds faster than what he normally moves at.

The Runner was only nominally faster than Makkari in this race -- He wasn't moving at or above lightspeed, either. To win the race, Makkari achieved lightspeed travel. This was fast enough to beat Runner in this instance. Why do you assume he became omnipresent when he used the technique? No reason, really, you just take the phrase, "ultimate speed" and extrapolate that to mean whatever you want it to mean, even when it specifically says he's going lightspeed.

Yet, earlier you admitted:

"The author either didn't know that Lightspeed wasn't the ultimate speed in Marvel, or didn't think Makkari or Runner could go FTL."

Okay. I'll restate this, your argument has been based upon your latter assertion in the statement above. But really, the reason for Makkari's achieving the "ultimate speed in the universe" being the speed of light is because...Mark Gruenwalk felt that was the fastest possible speed in the Marvel universe.

Yet, as I mentioned earlier, not only were there plenty of FTL feats before Gruenwald came over to Marvel, there plenty during and after. So, we're left with some choices. One is: we must accept that the speed of light is indeed the fastest possible speed in Marvel comics. Which would invalidate scores of FTL feats by several characters.

Or...we can assume, like you said earlier...the author didn't realize lightspeed wasn't the ultimate speed in Marvel.

Dredeuced, you are hanging your entire argument on an assertion by one guy at Marvel, that not only does not harmonize with with the rest of Marvel continuity, but does not harmonize with what Marvel.com is currently saying about the Surfer.

There's no reason to believe that Makkari or The Runner went FTL in this race. Anything beyond that is a gross misinterpretation.

By your interpretation, I'm sure it is.

Also, passing the mantle off to Marvel's speedsters? Barry was winning the race before he stopped to fight the rabbit dude or whatever. Runner even gets angry about how Barry was gaining distance.

Eh, it's my interpretation. Nothing to get excited about Dredeuced. But the venom in your comments tells me your taking my interpretation a little more personally than you should. No where in the comic does it state what I said. It is my interpretation. That make you feel better?

I also want to know how you know Gruenwald's true intention. Did you ever ask him if he meant for Makkari to be going FTL? You're putting a lot of stake in someone's "intention" when you don't even know what their intention is, do you? I guess it's easy to attribute intention to a dead man.

Because the narration is clear: because it (light) moves at the....

TOP POSSIBLE SPEED IN THE UNIVERSE FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN IT CAN.

Again, the author (Gruenwald) intended for Makkari to achieve the top possible speed in the universe. But as you indicated earlier, then dismissed in the same sentence in favor of an argument that suits your bias..."The author either didn't know that Lightspeed wasn't the ultimate speed in Marvel"

Like, seriously, the exact words are "he feels himself become light in both senses of the word." What does this mean to you? What is his intention behind these words? Does it just not matter, is it irrelevant narrative while "ultimate speed," are the only words that count in the whole comic?

You realize of the course, the converse of your statement is true right? The only problem with accepting your statement as the truth is that we must also invalidate all other FTL feats in Marvel comics, based on this one. And all based on your assertion that one guy at Marvel, 30 years ago, pushed the notion of hyperspace.

OR...

We can accept the thrust of what the author was trying to get across, although imperfectly, that he achieved the ultimate possible speed in the universe.

Take your pick.

You're being ridiculous, he says he's becoming light more often than he says "ultimate speed." As if ultimate itself couldn't just be hyperbole. Nope, clearly Makkari's omnipresent, despite still running in a straight line to win a footrace, that's the only reasonable assumption!

Wow. Who said anything about omnipresence by achieving ultimate speed? Perhaps the fastest speed feat in the Marvel universe was achieved by the Runner with the space gem, who was achieving mental teleportation, not omnipresence. It even says so in the feat, as Thanos explained.

And you know what, all this aside, that feat is Makkari's, not The Runner's, isn't it? The Runner wasn't the one who achieved ultimate speed, all he did was get left in the dust when Makkari did. How is The Runner never going FTL once during the whole race make him even close in speed to Wally?

Well, sort of. Makkari did beat the Runner (who beat him previously in a similar contest in Quasar 17). But he was still able to interact with him while everyone else is frozen in time. The Grand Master's comment "I transcend time and space" makes it clear they were moving through time in that feat. And his margin of defeat was smaller than you are asserting.

My problem is with you saying "subtemporal speeds." Does that mean there are "Temporal" speeds?

Wally's amping in the Human Race, led to trans time velocities. The feat above from Blitz, said, "Time almost stops", which tells me he was approaching those same trans-time speeds. I suppose, Dredeuced, if the comic mentions a character is moving through time, travelling through time, or what have you, that would be considered "temporal speeds". Why is this problematic for you?

I know you know Wally's continuity well enough to know that when he first crossed the light speed barrier, this resulted in travelling time. I've found that in both DC and Marvel, crossing the light speed barrier was the magic barrier needing to be crossed in order to travel time. The same holds true for (for example) the Silver Surfer's early continuity. His very first FTL feat resulted in him travelling time.

Because Wally could time travel without any amps in Johns run as well. That doesn't mean he can keep up with someone who's as massively FTL as Zoom was. You don't suddenly time travel when you go massively FTL, Wally's shown that dozens of times.

He could travel time without any amps. And I clearly said that above. My point about the Zoom/Wally fight was that the author was not only trying to get across just how much faster Zolomon was, he did so imperfectly, just like Gruenwald did. I know Wally does not need an amp to travel time. This has been proven several times. But it seems Johns could not emphasize this clearly without some PIS involved. I mean, on one hand you have Wally, who can move through time under his own power. So Johns creats Zoom II and is left with a perplexing problem: How do I demonstrate to the reader that Zoom is faster than Wally is? So....some PIS ensued. That was my point. I mean, if Wally after being amped by three other speedsters only approached a speed where: "time almost comes to a complete stop", that would mean Zolomon may have only been nominally FTL. Have you ever thought about that perspective? See my point? There are discrepancies in every character's continuity, but we try to read between the lines and come up with a feasible explanation. I could show you any number of discrepancies in Wally's continuity, with just his speed alone. But I read between the lines.

Dredeuced, your welcome to your interpretation, and I don't begrudge that interpretation. If you want to say Makkari and Runner are only just below light speed (or whatever speed...), more power to you. I don't have an emotional stake in this conversation, but I will stick by my interpretation of the feat.

Cheers, it's Friday night!