Flash vs. Runner

Wally.Runner has nothing on Wally

Flash cause Runner is just so damn lame.

The only thing I've ever read with runner in it is Thanos Quest before the infinity gauntlet story. He claimed to be the fastest being in the universe, and the only reason Thanos beat him was with his infinity gems.

The fact that he runs across the universe and iirc can teleport/quasi time travel makes me want to vote for runner.

Edit: also runner is billions of years old and immortal...

Didn't the runner loser to Barry? Or "Burried"... Without the Space Gem, this is spite against the Runner, with it I guess he wins the same way Hunter wins.

Runner

Well put.

@supermanwithatan01: Yes it was Buried Alien and he was smoking Runner & Makkari but lost only IIRC he had stopped to save someone but I'm blurry on it.Also this is Wally(of course you know)who is way faster than Barry(that you know too) who would win against Runner easily

Is this just a race? if it were just a race I would go with Wally. But Runner is MUCH stronger then an amping Silver Surfer. able to phase. has psi bolts that can put down Silver Surfer in one blast. Walks through stars like nothing. Travels light years in seconds. Galactus couldn't digest him. Not sure how wally beats him

@pooty: Who's to say he can't knock him out?I mean this guy would never touch Wally anyways

Wally's strongest attack is an IMP. Strong enough to KO a martian. Runner has NEVER been hurt in a physical battle and he fought a pissed off Silver Surfer and Thanos. And to hit Runner, Wally has to be close. A psi bolt could take Wally down.

@pooty: Runner fought Thanos with the time gem that's why he was untouchable.KO'd a Martian who was in Superman's class and as durable by Wally's words.He doesn't have to IMP(even though he broke the COIE Anti - monitor's armor)he can also speed steal him as well

He was untouchable by SS until he chose to confront him. Wally broke the antimonitors armor AFTER superman,supergirl shazam etc had dent it. Wally can spead steal for the win but that attack is very unusual for him to use. Without knowledge on the Runner I doubt he would go for speed steal immediately. IMO it comes down to how Wally fights

If Wally is bloodlusted then there's probably not even going to be a place to fight anymore as both speedsters blow up the universe.

Morals on, Runner trolls Wally until his brain implodes.

@pooty: On the Armor,all they did was put a hole in it.Wally pretty much did most of the work and did more damage than DC Earth combined.But I agree if Wally fights smart he wins :)

agreed my friend

Runner curbwtfstomps flash. There isnt anything flash can do to put runner down since runner is immortal as in cant die as in flash can do nothing

Elders are sky father level and Runner has mindraped moondragon and surfer into liking him, wally stands no chance since his durability sucks and he would be feeling like hugging than fighting

@thanosii: Wally's durability doesn't suck.He's taking hits from bloodlusted Zoom,AMAZO,Mongul,etc.

You don't have to die to win this battle. KO or incapacitation will do. Wally can accomplish that through speed steal or affecting the speed of Runners cerebrum. So Wally does have a chance.

LOL

Very true. Morals on and Runner makes Wally take him to dinner and the movies

When has Wally west speed steal worked on somebody this high on the rictor scale, never. People keep speculating and giving Wally abilities that he has never shown to be capable of. That's just like me saying since Spider-Mans impact webbing worked on Luke cage they should also work on sentry,, nope

@reaverlation: and bloodlusted what City has Zoom , Amazo or Mongul done. Runner is a skyfather level being that oneshots Silver surfer who is a planet buster. Wally is not tanking one of his blasts

@pooty: to be fair Norrin fights like a moron, not that he'd have won against someone with the space gem. But Wally can bypass telepathy, is much faster than the Runner (unless he has the space gem), can be intangible and could steal his speed. Regardless as to where he gets the power from, West could still his kinetic energy on a whim.

Without Space gem:

In character - Could either way.

Morals off - Wally slaughters.

With Space gem:

Either way - Runner wins, he is basically a Gold, "Clash if the Titans"-looking Zoom.

Yes that's good

That's also nothing compared to what Silver Surfer can put out

Wally's first fight with Zoom was only a fight and not outright murder in the first place because of Wally's HUGE amp, and even then he was vastly slower than Hunter

First things first , Runner is faster than Wally. Wally's fastest recorded speed is 13 trillion times Lightspeed.. This is NOT fast enough to run from one galaxy to another in moments. Which is what the Runner does

Secondly Wally West is a man with awesome speed and time powers, but at his core he's just a human who can run very fast. This is why while the speed force protects him from dying from blows by the likes of amazo, more often than not it still knocks him out. Case in point his fight with Amazo. He took the blows sure, but he could hardly respond in kind and took a tremendous beating.

The runner on the other hand is a cosmic whose speciality just happens to be running. This guy took blasts from Silver Surfer and just laughed. Silver surfer has blown planets to bits with his blasts.. Post Crisis DC heroes, even Superman have not even busted moons without getting knocked out. So taking blows from Zoom and Amazo, while all well and good for a human is not really anything that will particularly cause an Elder of the Universe to notice

Thirdly, people keep bringing in The Thanos Runner fight. Stop. Just stop. If you knew who Thanos was, you would also know that the entire JLA put together can't put out as much damage as Thanos with his little finger on a bad day.

Fourthly, Wally West doing better against COIE Anti Monitor than multiple Pre Crisis Kryptonians. Pre Crisis Wonder Womanetc not to mention the freakin unbound Spectre is such complete and utter PIS , it should be tossed out as SMvsFL immediately given that none of Wally's other feats come even close to matching him soloing COIE. That is NOT a consistent portrayal of Wally's power level AT ALL.

Fifthly people are using Buried Allen as some sort of proof of Wally's speed. Crossovers, least of all non official crossovers are not to be taken seriously at all. Otherwise we would have to accept that Thor knocks Superman on his ass by just bumping into him, or stuff like Superman can reform from molecules, just because Sentry who is based on him can. Heck if you count stuff like that, the Teen Titans have torched the Xmen Mansion, Hulk has knocked out Doomsday, White Martians have killed Wolverine and Dr Doom and Judge Dredd has killed everyone in DC and Marvel!

Sixthly even if this was Barry Allen, this was pre crisis Barry Allen who was faster than or equal to pre crisis Superman. Silver Age Superman being the same guy who was travelling so fast he crossed the " bounds of reality" , sped out of the universe( and all of reality) and nearly crash landed into Heaven before the Spectre stopped him. All this in 10 minutes or something. So noo...I dont seriously think Wally is PC Superman speed either

Seventhly and finally Makkari did beat the Runner but only because he had achieved Ultimate Speed, ie he could literally choose to go at any speed he wanted. If he wanted to go at " I am going to make Wally West look like a statue" speed he could just that fast. He was pretty much the fastest thing in all of fiction at this point , literally deciding his own speed

Conclusion

Wally West gets murderstomped

Runner didn't have the space gem when he fought SS. That was pure Runner. Wally CAN bypass TP but he has been caught by it by Gorilla Grodd and martian Manhunter. Still, Runner does psi bolts which is different from TP. So that is a viable option. Just because Wally is blood lusted doesn't mean he'll use speed steal. He is still in character even when blood lusted. If Wally starts off with speed steal then Wally can win. But if he tries physical attacks I think Runner could take him. Depends on how Wally fight.

I disagree. Spideys webbing has clear, defined limits. We have seen his webbing break against people on a certain level. We have not seen a limit to Wally speed steal. Wally has said his ability can't work on time manipulators. Runner is not a time manipulator. What ability does Runner have that makes it possible that he is resistant to speed steal? Speed steal is like TP. If a person has not show resistance to it then you assume they are not resistant to it. Runner has shown nothing to suggest speed steal won't work on him. so why should we assume it won't work?

@thegrayghost: You are so wrong.The fact he took that beating shows how durable Wally is.If he is so human he should've died right?Let's put your precious Daredevil in his place seeing how he is human like Wally and see what happens.Wally destroyed the Anti - monitor's armor and that's it and nothing else.People say PIS because they don't know how powerful Wally really is for the fact AMAZO saw Wally as more of a threat than Superman.Thanos(don't know why he was brought into this)only got manhandled because Runner had the Space Gem with makes him untouchable(not that Thanos is known for speed anyways).Also Buried Alien was more of a homage to Barry for dying in COIE so it's not really a crossover as technically it wasn't Barry Allen.Also Barry is slower than Wally and will always be slower and Pre - Crisis Superman isn't faster than Wally for the fact Barry was still faster than him who in terms is slower than Wally.Makkari beat Runner by hitting Light Speed.If that's all it took than you're Runner is not all that seeing how only Light Speed was needed to beat Runner.

Conclusion:Runner loses

Race - Wally without a doubt

Fight - nobody, because I'm not siding with Marvel's immortal plot device

Also, When Runner fought Thanos, Thanos already had Infinity Gems. I know he had the time gem and power gem. and he still didn't want to fight Runner.

@pooty: bloodlusted he'd bfr him into the speedforce where the elder would lose all his knowledge/memories. Or he could simply kill him vibrating his heart/brain out (bloodlusted). Morals off he'd be much more dangerous. Either way I don't see the runner keeping up or being as fast as Barry (the 2nd slowest Flash). With the space gem he wins

@supermanwithatan01: He wouldn't kill him(he's immortal)but Wally wins anyways

wait wait,what is that ?

Best Feats of Wally WEST

That's Flash going from the Moon to Earth in less than PlanckTime

Earth to Moon = 384.000 km

Planck Time = 5.39106e-44 seconds , Wally's real speed is really mind-shattering 2.375944852e43c

thats really fu*king awesome

Wally was traveling through the Big Bang and Big Crunch and was able to perceive them, but traveled through time too fast to be hurt by them. As these events spanned the entire universe it would be impossible to outrun them, so this probably gives him sub-planck senses/reactions, since he was only within them for less than a planck instant, I'm pretty sure.

Next up is outrunning the explosion of Krypton. In this (Post-Crisis, pre-reboot) continuity, Krypton was in the Andromeda galaxy. The explosion also managed to eventually propel shards of Kryptonite to/near Earth, by the time of the New Krypton storyline. This story started in December of 2008. The Crisis on Infinite Earths ended in March of 1986. IIRC in Post-Crisis continuity, Superman was around 30 years old when he debuted. So the Kryptonite took 52 years and 9 months to reach Earth from Krypton.

Andromeda is 2.54 million light-years from Earth so the Kryptonite was traveling at 48,151.65877c We can thus safely say Wally was running faster than this.

Next was him racing against Zeta Beams. A Zeta Beam is a technology from the planet Rann, which was able to teleport people over interstellar distances seemingly instantly. This included from the position of Rann's new star system, Polaris, to Earth. To be conservative, I'll give a timeframe of 1 second for the teleportation (even though they're almost always portrayed as being much faster than this).

Distance from Earth to Polaris is 325 - 425 light - years, I'll average it and say 375. Thus the minimum speed of a Zeta beam is around11,826,000,000c Wally was keeping up with this.

Next Wally's accumulated speed racing against the cosmic gamblers.

We start with the 11,826,000,000c minimum speed we knew he had up to this point. Add to this the speed of every person on Earth (stated as being 5 billion in the comic) running as fast as they can.

I found information on the average human sprint speed being 14 mph (6.25856 m/s). Multiplying that by 5 billion and we get 31,292,800,000 m/s, or 104.3815452c.

Not really that much of a boost... but the real boost comes from when Krakkl offers Wally his own speed, and he was using the combined speed of everyone on his homeworld. As both of their worlds were in danger, and Krakkl stated they were saving 100 billion lives, and the Earth population was already established at 5 billion, we can say there were 95 billion people on the planet Kwyzz.

Now all of these were radio wave beings, so they must have been moving at least the speed of light, however in the past Krakkl was able to communicate with Wally on Earth in-real time, using only his natural speed and abilities.

The distance between Kwyzz and Earth was never stated,but we can narrow it down to get a minimum distance.

It couldn't have been in the Alpha Centauri system, because that was Rann's former system, and this was before Rann's move during the Rann-Thanagar war. So that's ruled out.

I cannot find any reference to Barnard's Star, the next nearest system, in any DC works, so this is the closest place Kwyzz could be.

In order for a reasonable two-way conversation without noticeable delays, I'm guessing a maximum time interval would be 0.1 seconds (conservative again).

Distance to Barnard's star = 5.963 light-years.

Therefore, Krakkl's base speed would be at least 1,880,491,680c.

Multiplying this by 95 billion, we get 1.786467096e20c.

Adding this to Flash's speed from before and the speed from Earth, we get 1.786467096118260001043815452e20c.

and

Finally, estimating the total average speed of the race against the Cosmic Gamblers, they started on the other side of the universe:

And reached Earth before the gambler had time to process a thought. Using 0.0083333333 seconds, and the diameter of the universe at 93 billion light-years, the average speed would be

3.519417614e20c.

This actually lines up surprisingly well with the speed I calced for the first part of the race.

Some LITTLE FEATS OF WALLY

250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Times Faster Than the Speed of LIGHT

During the Human Race, Wally outraced instantaneous teleportation from the Cosmic Gamblers -- that could be seen as a pseuod time travel feat, though, as he raced across the fourth dimension to do it (The fourth dimension is time).

Directly after that, though, he was definitely not time traveling. Over the span of one Septosecond, which is 0.000000000000000000001 seconds, he tuned every radio on Earth.

There are 150,000,000 square kilometers of land on Earth. Light travels about 300,000 kilometers per second. To cover 150,000,000 kilometers, it would take light 500 seconds. For simplicity's sake, if you assume there is 1 radio for every square kilometer on earth (that is lowballing it greatly), that means he was traveling 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000times faster than light, or 500 septillion.

Understand that I am greatly, greatly lowballing this feat as it doesn't take into account the time it takes him to tune every radio, the accurate density of radios per square kilometer (much higher than my guess, i just used mine to make the multiplication and division easier), radios that aren't on land (such as every boat on the planet that has a radio) or the time it takes him to search the square of every kilometer -- if he had to search every square inch then it'd be 500 septillion squared, or250,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 which is 250 Quattuordecillion times the speed of light.

Here's the feat in action:

500.000 FACES IN A PICOSECOND !

He scans half a million faces in 1 picosecond

Gallery

also He's crossed the Universe in less than an instant (Flash: The Human Race).

He circled earth a dozen times,he covered every single inch of the world less than an instant while even big blue was freezing

@dorukesin: He was amped during The Human Race & during his fight against Zolomon

I say Flash wins because the Runner has no feats. Sure he speedblitzed Silver Surfer and Thanos, characters with no combat speed feats, but he has also lost in races to Makarakki (a speedster nowhere near any Flash's level) and "Buried Alien", an obvious parody/ homage of Barry Allen (so much so Comicvine links him to Runner's page). Aside from those few occasions he is used very sparingly in Marvel Comics, as the only elder of the universe used frequently is the Grandmaster, who has feats suggesting power levels all over the place. Actually, I take the win by Flash back. We have very little to go on, as the Runner has few comic book feats/ appearances, and the Elders of the Universe are notoriously all over the place power level wise (granted that's true for all the Marvel cosmics, and comic book characters in general).

@reaverlation:

even its not his best feat also yeah he's fighting for Linda in that scan

Funny stuff, man....

@supermanwithatan01: I agree that Flash can win if he uses his more exotic powers and not pure force. What is the difference between morals off and blood lusted? I thought they meant the same thing.

@pooty: bloodlusted: meaning he goes all out, only wanting to kill or injure as badly as possible. No logic or morality or reasoning to think anything out (like how to inflict said harm)

Morals off: meaning that he loses what holds him back and fights without mercy. He decides to ignore morality and fights clear headed. Going for the kill and the most damage yet not restrained by typical morals and not out of his mind pissed (thinking unclearly). Not without a brain.

@reaverlation:

You are so wrong.The fact he took that beating shows how durable Wally is.If he is so human he should've died right?Let's put your precious Daredevil in his place seeing how he is human like Wally and see what happens

I dont think you understood what I was trying to say here

Daredevil takes a shot from Amazo and dies

Wally takes a shot from Amazo and gets knocked out

Superman takes a shot from Amazo and keeps fighting and eventually wins

Surfer takes a shot from Amazo and reseals his wounds

Runner completely ignores the shot from Amazo

To be absolutely clear I am talking about durability here

.Wally destroyed the Anti - monitor's armor and that's it and nothing else.

That's it?

Do you realise what Wally just did? He did something PC Kryptonians and PC Spectre failed to do. In fact he landed COIE Anti Monitor on his ass , something PC Darkseid failed to do

Do you NOT see any anomaly here AT ALL?

Just to be clear, you just said Wally West did more damage than a guy who held apart two universes at the same time here

So um tell me...I think I know pretty much all of Wally's best feats. but obviously I have missed out on some of his multiversal feats

Heck I will settle for some planetary feats for now. So this must be where you show me a scan of Wally casually pulling along a bunch of planets right? That's the bare minimum one of the WEAKER PC Kryptonians Superboy was capable of

People say PIS because they don't know how powerful Wally really is for the fact

Yes so naturally you are going to post those universe busting scans now, right?

AMAZO saw Wally as more of a threat than Superman.

Wally West is indeed more of a threat than Post Crisis Superman. Personally I always thought either Kyle or him were the strongest members of the league

Thanos(don't know why he was brought into this)only got manhandled because Runner had the Space Gem with makes him untouchable(not that Thanos is known for speed anyways)

Thanos is not known for his speed? I assume that is why he has managed to knock Silver Surfer off his board multiple times, Surfer being Wally West level fast, with all his 500 million light years in a second and scanning the earth before Dr Strange could finish his sentence feats.

The fact that Runner was doing ANYTHING to Thanos at all despite having a gem is a feat. That must be the one and only occasion that Thanos was blitzed

.Also Buried Alien was more of a homage to Barry for dying in COIE so it's not really a crossover as technically it wasn't Barry Allen.

Which is what I said

Also Barry is slower than Wally

Yes Post Crisis Barry is slower

and will always be slower

Pre Crisis Barry was faster. Any person who manages to keep up with PC Superman is faster than anything in modern comics

and Pre - Crisis Superman isn't faster than Wally

Remind me again when did Wally manage to cross all of reality and nearly entered heaven? If you are truly going to start comparing modern, logical characters to Silver Age " I make my own rules" Superman himself, I really dont know what to say. Here's another feat

I forget the details, but Metallo fires a blast from an energy gun at him, and he runs to the fortress, shrinks down, goes into Kandor, does some other stuff, then returns all before the beam hits where he'd been standing when it was fired.

And you would THINK he has no powers in Kandor, and that it would take the energy beam at least a second to shrink him, but there you go. PC Superman existed only to defy logic

Also fun fact: the gun beam he was dodging was a gun that switches your heart with the guy shooting it

for the fact Barry was still faster than him who in terms is slower than Wally.

PC Superman is NOT slower than Wally dude. For one thing Wally West has never even crossed a galaxy without amps

Makkari beat Runner by hitting Light Speed.If that's all it took than you're Runner is not all that seeing how only Light Speed was needed to beat Runner.

Makkari beat him in a race by achieving "ultimate speed" which was only defined as light in the sense of explicitly associating with it the ability to go whatever speed he wanted to. So basically the guy who was briefly able to blow the Runner out of the water speed wise could, in that moment, go any speed ever, apparently.

In the Makkari thing, Runner stated that he knew the "ultimate speed" trick himself, but didn't use it because it's kind of impossible to slow down after. And that's what happened to Makkari, IIRC.

So yes if he wanted to , he could do to Flash what Makarri did to him

And do you seriously believe that a guy moving fast enough to punk Surfer is ONLY lightspeed

Conclusion:Runner loses

Based on what? Runner's faster, more durable, stronger( he was hurting Thanos at a time when he had most of the infinity gems , which IIRC included the power gem. Thanos has in the past COMPLETELY ignored Surfer's point blank blasts,which have busted planets before, completely ignored Classic Drax's blows , which destroyed stars,completely ignored a planet exploding around him, completely ignored a black hole etc etc...so when Thanos WITH THE POWER GEM is hurt by anything at all, whoa that sort of power is going to smoke Wally for sure)

I dont know what Wally can hope to achieve against the Runner when Surfer couldnt

And FYI Surfer would annhilate Wally

@thegrayghost: Still wrong.The fact that AMAZO delivered a mace to Wally's chest and 1000 martial art blow backed by the strength of Superman and still be able stop AMAZO before he stomped the Justice League shows how durable he is Along With Taking Hits from Mongul & Titus(someone who one shotted Superman).With the Anti - Monitor he didn't defeat it(as he couldn't harm its energy form)but he did more damage to the armor than DC earth combined.Flash is the most powerful member of pre/new 52 justice league due to being in a league of speed nobody can react to.When Makkari raced Runner,he beat him by achieving light speed so at LIGHT SPEED he outraced the Runner.Barry was always faster than Superman. When they raced again,Superman said "I have always kept up with you when we raced" and Barry responded "those were for charity Clark" and left Superman in the dust.When Surfer was beat down by Thanos and showed no signs of speed against(especially someone who isn't as fast as Wally)that's what you mean?Someone who out ranked the Big Bang itself after outrunning and beating Death itself?Flash who as a kid can react in nanoseconds and fight in between Pico seconds with Professor Zoom?Yeah no Wally would beat Runner and the Surfer FYI

@reaverlation: Still wrong.The fact that AMAZO delivered a mace to Wally's chest and 1000 martial art blow backed by the strength of Superman

That is a good feat. If he was actually able to physically do anything against Amazo after that is. Wally was literally unable to walk

Someone like Superman, Wonder Woman, MMH etc would not only have soaked the hits but kept fighting and PHYSICALLY beat down Amazo

and still be able stop AMAZO

He stole his speed. He was literally unable to walk on his own strength from the beatdown. How is that a physical feat?

before he stomped the Justice League shows how durable he is Along With Taking Hits from Mongul & Titus(someone who one shotted Superman)

Well I that's all well and good. Actually that's slightly inconsistent with his other portrayals like getting thumped by Impereix probes and Wonder Woman among others but Ok lets roll with it

What he did is nothing Superman and Wonder Woman dont do ( on a much more regular basis)

Again how does that even compare to an unbound Spectre?

With the Anti - Monitor he didn't defeat it(as he couldn't harm its energy form)but he did more damage to the armor than DC earth combined.

Once again you are saying Flash did more damage than all the Pre Crisis characters assembled . Not to mention the freakin Spectre

So once again my only question is, show me any universal feat of Wally that allows him to even be mentioned in the same breath as Spectre

Flash is the most powerful member of pre/new 52 justice league due to being in a league of speed nobody can react to

Superman is the most powerful member of the n52 JL.

Flash was indeed the most powerful member pre52

.When Makkari raced Runner,he beat him by achieving light speed so at LIGHT SPEED

How many times do I need to explain this?

1. It was only defined as light in the sense of explicitly associating with it the ability to go whatever speed he wanted to.

2. Runner also knew that trick

3. Runner is faster than Surfer who is obviously Wally West times FTL

Actually since you are so insistent on saying Runner is less than lightspeed I might as well point out that the Wally nuke feat was stated to be under lightspeed too. Heck Wally was amped by 100 billion people or something during the Human Race. So two of his best feats get tossed out of the window

he outraced the Runner

By using a trick the Runner already knew but didnt use as it was rather inconvenient

.Barry was always faster than Superman. When they raced again,Superman said "I have always kept up with you when we raced" and Barry responded "those were for charity Clark" and left Superman in the dust.

That is a post crisis retcon. I am pretty specifically talking about pre crisis here, which you obviously know nothing about

When Surfer was beat down by Thanos and showed no signs of speed against(especially someone who isn't as fast as Wally)that's what you mean?

Surfer was blitzing him AND blasting him with the power cosmic. Thanos punched him out of his board and killed him with seven blows. That's what I mean

Someone who out ranked the Big Bang itself after outrunning and beating Death itself?

Death in this case being specifically slower than light, I dont see how that's particularly impressive

Or if you mean the Black Flash , Wally could do nothing to hurt him till they reached the end of time. Where again Wally didnt beat him, entropy did

Surfer can also time travel

Flash who as a kid can react in nanoseconds and fight in between Pico seconds with Professor Zoom?

Surfer crosses light years in seconds.One light year is 9.4 * 10^15. Do the math. He fought cable all over the globe , destroying and repairing buildings so fast no one noticed. Heck just go find a Surfer respect thread or something

Bottom line, Wally and Surfer have roughly the same speed

Zoom, Makkari and Runner are faster

Yeah no Wally would beat Runner and the Surfer FYI

How? Wally and Surfer are roughly equal, speedwise

Wally can speedsteal and IMP and phase through

Surfer can punch harder, phase better, put entire planets to sleep with TP, blast planets to bits and remain completely unaffected by a planet exploding all around him, has durability that allows him to chill in the middle of black holes, transmute, has cosmic awareness that allows him to instantly detect a weakness in his opponent,manipulate time, matter manipulation............the list goes on

Only thing that might affect Surfer is Speedsteal. And that takes more time than Surfer launching a planet buster, TP him to a drooling vegetable, transmute him etc etc

Runner is everything Surfer is , only better

So basically my question is....what the hell do you think Wally West can do anything to someone like that

And if your answer is what he did to the Anti Monitor again, I expect you to provide me a scan of Wally's multiversal feats since you clearly think he is stronger than the Spectre

@thegrayghost: The fact Wally didn't die from getting hit 1,000 times with punches backed by Superman's strength means a lot.He already beat Superman before engaging Wally and only beat Wally because he utilized Wally's own powers & speed against him.You know that an unbound spectre is actually the weakest version right(of course you don't).You take it as PIS but there you are like most people who don't understand how powerful Wally is.Actually Flash New 52 would beat New 52 Clark as being faster than him and dump him into the speed force or vibrating his brain out.Also Barry is still faster than Superman for the fact Clark remembered the races he had with Barry(you know pre-crisis)and Barry left him in the dust saying he held back racing against Superman.Surfer showed no speed against Thanos at all just like most of the fights he is in like Norris getting tagged by Thor,Hulk,Thing,Spider-Man should I keep going on how Norris doesn't utilize speed in any fight let alone one on par with Wally?Norrin can time travel?No way that's amazing seeing how Wally can do that quite easily.Oh travel light years?Wally has done that quite easily like when he outran the Big Bang.Surfer has at best Nanosecond reaction which puts him on par with Superman.Wally has fought in between Picoseconds and searched a crowd of 500,000 people in a picosecond.Wally can speed steal and hit harder than Surfer and resist his TP so anything else?Wally has actually ran through a black hole twice and what is cosmic awareness gonna tell him he runs fast?Most of the things you mentioned Surfer doesn't do in battle anyways.Wally speed steals more than Surfer would do most his powers anyways.Zoom is faster than Wally and Surfer especially Runner or Makkari so don't compare these characters to him.Spectre obviously is more powerful than Wally but saying everything Wally does is PIS just shows you're knowledge on Wally is lacking.Wally would beat both of these characters FYI...again.

If Wally tries to attack Runner in a purely physical fight then Wally will lose.....badly.

If Wally uses his "tricks" like speed steal or slowing down his brain then he can win.

@reaverlation: The fact Wally didn't die from getting hit 1,000 times with punches backed by Superman's strength means a lot.He already beat Superman before engaging Wally and only beat Wally because he utilized Wally's own powers & speed against him.

And as I have already pointed out, Amazo was only a class 100 . Wally was almost beaten to death by said class 100

I have no idea where you are getting "Wally West is more durable than Superman" from, so once again I will be waiting for those scans showing Wally tanking a supernova or a sun eater

Wally West does indeed possess some level of durability due to Speed force by more often than not, bullets and blows from a class 100 are enough to put him down. See the Wonder Woman fight. Wally might not outright die, but that doesnt mean he has greater durability than post crisis Superman either

Or do you want me to post scans of Wally getting knocked by knives, bullets, human punches, heck getting tripped by Slade!

I personally consider most of these PIS. Not because they hurt Wally but because they touched him in the first place given his speed. Wally does possess some level of superhuman durability. Not anywhere close to a top post crisis class 100 though.

You know that an unbound spectre is actually the weakest version right(of course you don't)

Well let me refresh your memory of COIE. It was an unbound Spectre AMPED by ALL of Earth's magicians

Out of curiousity....have you read Day of Vengence? You know when an Unbound Spectre wrecked Shazam at his own place of power despite Shazam having prepped for it? Then Spectre proceeded to wreck Dr Fate and turn the Phantom Stranger into a mouse? You know the time EVERY SINGLE MAGICAL BEING on earth had to use their powers to somewhat stalemate Spectre?

.You take it as PIS but there you are like most people who don't understand how powerful Wally is

Ok so.....I keep asking for scans of Wally's multiversal feats....you keep ignoring...

.Actually Flash New 52 would beat New 52 Clark

This is not what happened

as being faster than him and dump him into the speed force or vibrating his brain out

Yeah the speed difference is not big enough in n52 for Barry to pull off any of those stunts before Clark blasts the planet to pieces

And also could you show me scans of n52 Barry either vibrating anybody's skull or dumping into the Speedforce?

Or have these events never happened and you are randomly assigning pre52 Wally's feats and powers to Barry?

.Also Barry is still faster than Superman for the fact Clark remembered the races he had with Barry(you know pre-crisis)

In 1985 DC had the mega event Crisis on Infinite Earths which you seem not to have read. This retconned away most of DC's old continuity including most notably diluting Superman's powers from " I tow multiple planets casually" to "I can barely lift a mountain and get knocked out by tank fire". Later Superman was made stronger again but you clearly have no idea about the differnce between a pre crisis and post crisis character

Eh couldnt find the one with the distorted expression on his face

Anyway post crisis= struggles to pull 1/3rd of the planet till Kyle saves them

Pre Crisis SUPERBOY pulls an entire galaxy of planets

Do you see the difference now?

And while we are about it, the Speed force didnt even exist in PC DCU. So when I am specifically talking about Pre crisis Superman, I am specifically talking about the guy burst out of the universe in moments and not the guy who lost races to the Flash because the Flash had the Speed Force, something he clearly didnt have in 1985

And once again do you understand the meaning of a retcon? When I say Pre Retcon Beyonder, I am referring to the most omnipotent being in all of comics ever. When I say Beyonder, I am talking about the minor cosmic cube which he was retconned to

and Barry left him in the dust saying he held back racing against Superman.

Barry left Post Crisis Superman( who didnt have PC Superman's speed ) in the dust is what you mean

This is like me saying Superman can beat PC Darkseid as he was always holding back against him, just because he beat Post Crisis Jobberseid. You know the same guy who gets hurt after falling down stairs

Compare this to PC Darkseid who is not bothered by PC planet moving Kryptonians and Daxamites unloading on him, who put PC Mon el in a coma, mindcontrolled 3 billion Daxamites, teleported entire worlds, turned a simple human child to arguably the physically strongest PC villain, cloned PC Superman, Orion etc into stronger versions , this guy who did whatever the heck he wished to.

So are you comparing this God to the guy who fell down stairs?

I mean even begineer fans know the difference between PC and Post Crisis characters yet you act like Wally West is in any way more powerful than them

Surfer showed no speed against Thanos at all just like

What are you talking about. I mean seriously WHAT are you talking about? Do you really need me to show you scans of Surfer trying to blitz and getting knocked off his board by Thanos? I mean its clear you have never read a marvel comic but come on....

most of the fights he is in like Norris getting tagged by Thor,Hulk,Thing,Spider-Man should I keep going on

Wow Spiderman 's faster than Captain cold you know.....

So just to be clear, you are saying that Norrin NOT always utilising his speed which he has shown in the past many times in a fight means we should count those occasions right?

So then, Wally has gotten tagged by Slade, Captain Cold, Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Mirror master, Captain Boomerang( the non speedster one), Dr Light..... the list goes on

Another question....Do you understand the meaning of the word PIS?

how Norris doesn't utilize speed in any fight let alone one on par with Wally?

Well to Norrin's credit, he wasnt tripped across an alleyway by Deathstroke or impaled on Deathstroke's sword either. Deathstroke who has about the same speed as Batman..

Since you have decided to use PIS and CIS as examples of perceived reaction time, let me tell you Wally's low feats are a LOT worse than Norrin's.....

Norrin can time travel?No way that's amazing seeing how Wally can do that quite easily.

Which is exactly why I am saying that gives neither an advantage over the other

Oh travel light years?Wally has done that quite easily like when he outran the Big Bang.

Well actually that's time travel. Actually comics dont follow physics

Surfer has at best Nanosecond reaction which puts him on par with Superman.

Nanosecond reaction time......when he has feats like destroying and rebuilding half the world before people could notice? Scanning the entire earth before Strange could finish a sentence? The famous Gauntlet grab when he tries to nearly snatches the Gauntlet, before Thanos' reflexes save him? Did you really just compare Surfer and Superman in terms of speed? When has post crisis Superman ever reacted in nano seconds?

Wally has fought in between Picoseconds and searched a crowd of 500,000 people in a picosecond.Wally can speed steal and hit harder than Surfer

1. It takes time to speedsteal. Wally isnt speed stealing faster than Norrin can flick his wrist to unleash a planet buster

2. Wally can hit harder than Surfer.....what again?

Wally has hit Zoom, Mongul and a featless White Martian. Only Mongul was knocked out by his punches. Superman has done the same. Everyone else wally has hit is not really a class 100 brick

So no I fail to see how Wally is HITTING HARDER than a legit class 100 like Surfer

and resist his TP so anything else?Wally has actually ran through a black hole twice

Let me ask you. If I was standing at a place for a while and then a bomb exploded ten minutesAFTER I left,

would it be the same as a guy who was standing at ground zero at the EXACT TIME the bomb went off and was COMPLETELY UNAFFECTED by it?

Would you say I have the same durability as the other guy?

Do you now understand the difference in Surfer and Wally's durability?

and what is cosmic awareness gonna tell him he runs fast?Most of the things you mentioned Surfer doesn't do in battle anyways.

So once again let me get it straight...you are saying Surfer cannot use his abilities which he HAS PREVIOUSLY shown IN BATTLES at one point or the other just because he doesnt ALWAYS USE THEM?

Are you seriously going to bring low feats for a character in a FLASH battle thread ? The guy who has been shot by bullets and rendered useless by a sword vs the guy who casually flies into the heart of a sun?

Wally has used an IMP exactly twice: once against the White Martian and once against Zoom

Since he failed to use this when he was getting hammered by Amazo....does it mean he CANNOT use it in this thread just because he DOESNT ALWAYS USE IT?

Once again, do you understand the meaning of the word PIS?

Wally speed steals more than Surfer would do most his powers anyways.

But Surfer uses the Power Cosmic more than Wally speedsteals. So there you go. Wally rushes in to steal his speed, Surfer flicks his hand. Planet busted. Battle over

(SINCE WE ONLY COUNT FEATS WHICH ARE USED IN EVERY SINGLE FIGHT...)

Hey wait a second.....Wally doesnt speedsteal in every fight! While Surfer almost always uses the Power Cosmic! So according to your logic, Surfer can still use his blasts, while Wally can only run fast! Surfer wins!

Zoom is faster than Wally and Surfer especially Runner or Makkari so don't compare these characters to him.

Are you saying Surfer is faster than Runner and Makkari despite direct evidence to the contrary?

Spectre obviously is more powerful than Wally

Yeah this is not what you said in comment no 93

but he did more damage to the armor than DC earth combined

Depite me mentioning Spectre and universal feats at least ten times by then

But at least you said Spectre's stronger eh? Progress

Now tell me exactly why you think Wally is any better than a PC Kryptonian or Daxamite?

but saying everything Wally does is PIS just shows you're knowledge on Wally is lacking.

Your knowledge on the other hand of Marvel or even Pre Crisis DC is completely absent

I am not saying anything Wally does is PIS , except for the COIE feat

Wally would beat both of these characters FYI...again.

I will indeed debate with you once you actually read a Marvel comic, know the limitations of Wally West and read up some PC comics

@thegrayghost: You sir are ridiculous.AMAZO was gonna solo the Justice League if it weren't for Wally.Also no I know Superman is more durable but you're acting like Wally has trash durability which isn't true for someone who survived an AMAZO onslaught,black holes,etc.The spectre who stomped Shazam was the weakest one so don't why you're bringing this up really.New 52 Superman hasn't showed reaction speed nowhere close to Barry who has Pre-Cog and Femtosecond condition reaction time.He flicked a Barry who wasn't trying his hardest so congrats on not knowing how plot works.Also can't post feats I'm on phone but there are respect threads thanks to @matchesmalone21 so go look there.For the recon thing,you know that is the same Barry Post-Crisis as the one from pre-crisis correct?Barry only changed New 52 so don't know why you can't understand that.That same Barry(who is way slower than Wally)always held back against Superman in races so again realize it.Go ahead show Surfer using any speed against Thanos along with everybody he's faced from Thing,spider-man,Hulk,Thor,etc.(but it's PIS even though it's how Surfer fights)but you bring up Wally losing to deathstroke as a valid feat but I can say how Surfer was knocked out by a Mexican with a sledgehammer but I won't will I?The fact you question Superman having nanosecond reaction time shows your knowledge on Superman.Clark has easily flown light speed(flying from Vega System to earth in a minute which is in another galaxy)so Clark doesn't lack TRAVEL speed along with NANOSECOND REACTION time.I didn't say Wally was more durable than Norrin but show you Wally doesn't lack it.Lets see with his IMP he:knocked out Mongul in one blow,A white Martian who is in Superman's class and have taken blows from people like Superman,Wonder Woman,Manhunter,Orion,etc. so they aren't featless.TP wouldn't work as he resisted TP from Martian Manhunter.He would speed steal him faster as he reacts faster(Picoseconds which is 1000 times faster than nanoseconds).He used the IMP on a white martian,mongul,Professor Zoom,and Anti-Monitor.He didn't against AMAZO because it used Flash's own speed against him making just as fast(er).I will debate when you don't lack knowledge on DC completely and know how to correctly use the meaning of PIS so good-bye

@killemall: Means one quadrillanth of a second, who ever told you that highly over exaggerated flashes powers.

Both have clear chances of winning. Flash has stolen speed as a means to win, or even survive, when opportunity arose. I'd give it to him seeing as how the majority heavily hate the Flash for some reason.