Flash Vs Pre-Crisis Superman

The comic happened in a post Crisis comic, but it was a time travel comic so they went back to when Crisis happened. What don't you get about this? AM was specifically more powerful than before because he had won instead of lost because of Barry Allen's premature death. That alone means he was more powerful because he lost before.

Wally had to go back in time and prevent Barry from ever dying so that history could right itself, but that Anti Monitor is legit COIE Anti Monitor.

New 52 is even worse.

@dredeuced: this comic from post crisis,not pre-crisis,so that not legit feats for me just all

Is Crisis technically Pre-Crisis?

@the_last_son_of_czarnia: PC darkseid not powerful,when PC darkseid figth with PC orion just blow up a planet,even not more powerful than world break hulk feats

@powerwoman: Then you're completely illogical. That Anti Monitor destroyed the Universe when COIE couldn't. He was definitively more powerful. I don't get how it's not a legit feat. You're not using anything resembling reasoning.

@dredeuced: where show us this AM destroy universe in scan?show me

Didn't Pre-Crisis Darkseid help devastate the Anti-Monitor? I'm confused.

@the_last_son_of_czarnia: Not direct force,but he help,yes,but this COIE AM alreadyseverely weakened.

Flash.

@The_Last_Son_Of Czarnia no not you lol I'm talking about the user claiming the IMP would have no effect on SA Supes even though he has been hurt by less.

During Chain Lightning, with Barry's premature death, Anti Monitor ended up defeating Wally's universe (The one that defeated Anti Monitor):

When Wally attempts to vibrate back to his native universe, using the dimensional vibrations I told you about, it is no longer there because Anti Monitor destroyed it:

Gallery

So Wally goes back in time, as shown in the third scan I just posted, to when the Heroes fought this version of the Anti Monitor to try to change the outcome of the fight:

Wally joins the fight. Not only is Pre crisis Superman and Supergirl there, but as are other very powerful people like Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel, Firestorm etc. Wally is actually increasing their power with his speed lending I would also like you to note that Wally is moving so fast that PC Supes literally cannot perceive him, so say what you will about how fast he's gone, his reactions/combat speed seem definitively lower than Wally's:

Gallery

Their combined power is enough to put a single hole in Anti Monitor's armor:

Gallery

But it is not enough, as Anti Monitor, with the power he has thanks to Barry never destroying his Anti Matter Cannon, restrains and defeats the superheroes:

As Wally states, they would've won had Barry not died (because of Wally's mistake earlier on in the arc). Wally then, enraged, begins destroying the Anti Monitor at super speed, which is far more than the entire combined might of DC Earth -- including PC Superman and PC Supergirl -- could do:

Unfortunately, as we know from COIE, destroying Anti Monitor's armor is not enough to defeat Anti Monitor. Anti Monitor's true power lies in his energy form, which the heroes of DC try to fight off. It ONE SHOTS them all, because AM is massively more powerful this time around:

Gallery

Without Barry Allen, this version of Anti Monitor was too powerful and inevitably won the Crisis. Wally goes back further in time to save Barry Allen and prevent the situation from ever happening (after failing to destroy the anti matter cannon).

So yeah, Chain Lightning Anti Monitor was way more powerful than COIE Anti Monitor because there was no Barry Allen to weaken it.

@dredeuced: These scan i dont see any Impressive for me,first this not pre-crisis story,who know DC write mental retardation again,two,this AM not destroy any universe in scan,i dont think he was powerful,your call them is PC superman,PC supergirl something not really,because this not really them,just a random post-crisis story

@powerwoman: He did destroy the universe, though. It was not there when Wally tried to go back to it. It's literally outright stated. I pointed it out specifically, just for you, so you couldn't shrug it off.

The story takes place during COIE. Everyone there is at COIE levels. You'd have to be blind or intentionally ignorant to not realize it. You can see Wally as Kid Flash in some of those scans -- Wally was literally never Kid Flash again post crisis, so it HAS to be Pre Crisis.

Dang, that is OP, Dredeuced. You sold me at least.

@dredeuced: Not intentionally ignorant,your need scan this AM really destroy universe in scan not just a panel,this story not from PC comics book,just a post-crisis story,in the some post-crisis story,once SA supergirl meet post-crisis supergirl and who one shotted her,so i think this not really PC supers charater,at least your need prove them is really as powerful as PC superman

@powerwoman: What? Read this again:

"Your flesh contains the sole remaining positive matter in all existence"

That means he destroyed all the other positive matter in existence. What do you want me to do, show him shooting a laser beam at a universe and destroying it? Wally outright confirms what he said was true when he tried to phase into the positive matter universe -- there was none anymore. That's definitive proof of him destroying every positive matter universe in the multiverse.

The only reason you'd say it's not is outright ignorance.

@dredeuced: Not ignorant,read my point,i say,your scan this AM really destroy universe not just a panel,because this story is post-crisis not pre-crisis,in the post-crisis story,Post-crisis supergirl even can one shotted SA supergirl,the DC write always bad

@powerwoman:

...

It's not Post Crisis. This entire event happens DURING the Crisis. That's the entire goddamn point of the story. Barry wasn't alive during post crisis but he shows up just before it, are you gonna say it's Post Crisis just because?

The story takes place with Pre Crisis versions of the characters, otherwise Barry wouldn't be alive.

You can't use "bad writing" as an excuse -- for one, Mark Waid wrote this story and if you infringe on Mark Waid's Flash run then you're out of your mind. Secondly, SA Superman's feats are ALL stupid writing. If you have to exclude something because you think it's "stupid writing" then SA Superman loses anyhow.

It's an outright inane argument and I get the feeling you're trolling me at this point.

@dredeuced: POst-crisis supergirl one shotted SA supergirl,this story is from Post-crisis,if DC write can make this thing happened,i think i can doubt this AM power level too,this story happened is not pre-crisis,is post-crisis,in the scan,AM not destroy any universe,and your not prove in the scan,these "PC" charater is really as powerful as Pre-crisis,so yes,this feats isnt legal

@powerwoman: Then you're wrong and can't comprehend basic logic. Wally confirms Anti Monitor did destroy all the positive matter universes. That version of AM was significantly more powerful because he did succeed.

That is the entire premise of the story.

I don't care if you keep bringing up a stupid anecdote that you yourself have provided no scans for. Atleast I freaking went to the effort of trying to prove the things I say. All you do is stick your fingers in your ears (eyes, I suppose, in this case) and say "nananananana PC Superman can't lose your scans don't count because I say so"

I'm done with responding to you. This debate has no fulfilling outcome because you are not actually debating.

@dredeuced: why your so excited?My request is not worth mentioning.your just need scan this AM destroy univverse,is would be clear,based on DC writers often bad writing,i think i can doubt this AM and these "PC" charater is logic,not stupid ,this story is post-crisis story,not pre-crisis,if dc can make post-crisis supergirl one shotted sa supergirl why i cant doubt this AM?give me a explain.

@sheenlantern:

My mistake, so it's actually weaker than I thought? Well, it's settled then! He can effortlessly survive supernovas, so he must be able to shrug off IMPs, too!

Right....energy attacks does not equal blunt attacks,they soak different ways.Furthermore PC Supes has never taken the solar system busting energy of a supernova because his body only takes up so much volume he is only taken a small fraction of said explosion. ,@slimj87d already explained this well in another thread.And again PC Supes has ben hurt by far far less then a IMP why bring up high showing and ignore the rest?

Yes, and? You don't think Superman is capable of sneezing without powder? Even if he can't, if his sneezes are that powerful imagine how strong his...you know...PUNCHES are...

The fact is that the Mxy powder amped the power of the sneeze up,I can show you the proof if you like. And who cares how powerful PC Supes punches is? All that is a moot point because he is to slow to punch the Flash before he gets his speed stolen and pummeled with IMP's.

Can't argue with the scans, buddy.

You don't need to show the scan I already read the comic,in fact I own the comic.Superman was able to reach "Infinite speed" over a long period of time,he had to build up to get to that speed,normally he does not posses that kind of speed.

As if he's never done anything that obsurd before.

No he has never.

Riiiiiight, so Super-Ventriloquism, Super-Shapeshifting, Super-Telekinesis, Super-Aging Breath and the ability to kill himself and bring himself back at will are all fair game, but the ability to kill Flash is just SOOOO rediculous!

Yeah you can't make up powers for characters,this is the battle forum he has never showed he can make a power to kill the flash so why even bring this up?

@powerwoman

SA superman once took a big bang,

Right..... he has also been punked by Mongul,hurt by Martian Manhunter,needed Hal to shield him from a supernova,hurt by lasers,hurt by ray guns etc. I guess we are going to ignore the rest of the feats when he has been hurt by far far less then the "Big Bang" or are you going to claim all of the times he has been hurt are galaxy leveling attacks?

faster than infinity,

He needed to build up his speed to reach those speed it is not something he can do on the fly and that says nothing of his combat/reaction speed.

PC supergirl once break hold entire universe together power

I do not even understand what you are saying here.

,and PC superboy take a energy enough destroy universe inside his body

Yet he has been hurt by far far less, using one feat to signify how powerful a characters is makes no sense when he has been hurt by less.And this still will not protect him from getting his speed stolen.

,PC supergirl another verson suprema who can lift our entire universe weight....

Your point?All this is good and all but it is useless unless you can tag your opponent,which he can't.

just stop

This thread just spit

So your telling me to stop? Your grammar is horrible,and ignore everything other users say.I will also like scans of all of those feats above I am more then sure they are missing context.

flash murderstomps

Flash via speedsteal

PC Supes annihilstomps (annihilate + stomp) Flash

Superman

I came in leaning Superman, Dreduced convinced me that the Flash takes it though

Wanna point a two things.First the 2nd to last pic(pulling the planets) is of Superboy.Second Supermans sneeze was being amped like mentioned we see a guys sneeze get amped up(I don't have the scans),also there's another incident where Superboy sneezed and look what happened.

Oh yes,SA superman once struggling lift 100 tons,,a missile can kill him,street charater can beat him or match him,so what?

i dont know use low level can prove what,you want to prove SA superman weaker than pre-52 superman?

charater always have low level,not jusy SA superman

the mxy power not grow up superman sneeze,did here who really read comics book?where show us mxy power grow up superman sneeze?where?

@powerwoman: I apologize,I actually found that issue and you are correct it was just making people sneeze(which is poisonous apparently according to Superman).

@skit: is ok,the some superman hater use low level to prove superman is weak,i agree,sometime SA superman struggling lift 100 tons,,a missile can kill him,street charater beat him or match him,sometime SA superman even not faster than light,so is mean SA superman far weaker than pre-52 superman?

he struggling lift 100 tons,so he moved planets feats is PIS

he not faster than light,so he infinity faster than light is PIS

a missile can kill him,so sa Superman took any bigger than missile explosion is PIS

oh yes,i like superman hater use these logic to prove SA superman far weaker than wonder woman

Barry this... Barry that... Hmpf!!!! Where is Waaaaalllllllyyyyyyy!!!!!!!! Bring him back DC!

I'd say superman

Flash would just blitz him and speed-steal him into a statue. PC Superman could pull stupid powers out of his ass, but he was also very inconsistent. Yes, he could fly as fast as he wanted, but I dont remember him having that much combat speed or reaction times... at least not enough to match Flash.

@skit: Oh, I didnt know about the first one but I knew about the second thing that he had inhaled a lot of power but its still a cool feat.

Pre-crisis Superman is the only incarnation of Superman that can go faster-than-light, I think the scan is somewhere.

While it doesn't always mean he's faster than Flash, but just to make some point.

EDIT: Here is the scan

@thereptile said:

@skit: Oh, I didnt know about the first one but I knew about the second thing that he had inhaled a lot of power but its still a cool feat.

This feat is in dispute, but disregard that, it's possible because...

Pre-crisis Superman snuff out a red giant star with his super breath, a typical red giant can be the size of the inner solar system.

In the scan where it showed him sneezing away a solar system Superman CLEARLY emphasizes that it's HIS "Super-Sneeze." The dust is magic so it was like dust to him. Since real dust would not cause this reaction to superman. Magic is something Superman is in fact susceptible to. So that scan is correct in all its glory. SA superman Murder stomps flash. Morals off superman would just has to destroy the earth to kill him since he would be pretty hard to catch on the ground.

@angryhulks: Ah cool man, didnt know about those scans. The solar system sneeze thing was to just to show how stupid it was in terms of his power

He could fly at ridiculous speeds, but that's flight speed and not combat/reaction speed.

Flash wins.

@angryhulks: New-52 superman can go +200 times the speed of light. Pre-52 Superman could fly FTL

None of the version ever demonstrated combat speed of that level, though. It's purely travel speed.

I know the difference between travel speed and combat speed, I just posted the scan where Superman intercept a light-speed beam even though the beam had a head start. He's flying FTL in Earth atmosphere, which is something other incarnation can't do. This require at least great perception speed.

Not to mention he stopped a star from going supernova in matter of nanoseconds.

@angryhulks: Fair enough, but all of those, despite being his best reaction/combat speed feats, still massively pale in comparison to Wally's top end speeds.

Wally was effectively Silver Age with the hax stuff he pulled sometimes.

Post-Crisis Superman once flew from Metropolis to Saturn in four minutes. Flying speed, true, and he still loses, but just pointing that out.

Pre-Crisis Superman.

Don't take it personally. Dredeuced makes you want to stab your eyes out with a rusty needle if you listen to his inane rambling for too long.

@hardcorefakes:

Why did you bump this spite?

Because I was bored. Bite me.