Flash vs Goku

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THC

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#51  Edited By THC

@dredeuced

@uberhikari

You guys forget the fact that Flash not reacting to and being hit by the Rogues' boomerang is explained - unlike when he was moving billions of times the speed of light against Zoom - by him not having his stats amped as high be the Speed Force at that point in time and thus all his stats were scaled accordingly high, including senses and durability. The fact is you are misconstruing his most high-end feats as his base when there are feats that dictate otherwise.

The proposal that Flash lives every second completely amped by the Speed Force - such that he lives 31.7 million years over every single second which would account for having a constant femtosecond reaction time - and he doesn't need to actively boost himself by the Speed Force - and thus Goku can't tag him before he amps himself, just as Flash could do the same to Goku - which is denied by feats of Flash being tagged by lower than Goku, is preposterous, but I will not deny it unless you can provide proof that Flash lives 31 million years every second of his life.

Just like Goku, Flash has to consciously boost his speed, durability and senses in order to accomplish such high-end feats and it's evident. Maybe this has changed in recent years with Wally and he really does live 30 million years in a second, if so, please say so, but if that's the case it doesn't explain how characters such as Darkseid can defeat Flash. Can Flash not simply defeat Darkseid in the 10 million years of time he has before Darkseid even processes the thought to manipulate time?

A bullet has been able to make its way to the Flash's skin before, though he was able to react to it - because he was amped enough - and it shows that he has no atmospheric sense like Goku has. So if Goku -bloodlusted against a morals on Wally- Instant Transmission'd out of his sight, Flash's first thought would be "Where did he go?" and because, just like when he was blitz'd and tagged by a boomerang, his stats weren't boosted enough, he would be unable to even think of boosting his stats before he is already blitz'd by the FTL speedster.

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In the exact same way, and for the exact same reason Flash would pummel Goku in base form at the start of a morals-on fight, Flash would be speedblitz'd for underestimating Goku's multiply exponential increase in speed and power by transforming into a Super Saiyan. Goku would not make the mistake of underestimating Flash twice. If he were morals on he'd be excited by the thrill of the fight, and there's no way he'd try to kill Flash.

If he were bloodlusted however, he wouldn't take the risk of letting Flash power up to his full potential; which he knows through telepathy, and senses through ki. As Flash first turns his head and begins to formulate the thought of boosting his speed through the Speed Force in order to locate Goku after he disappears using IT, he takes a punch to the face delivered from the corner of his eye that shatters his skull. Current Goku in base form would be comparable in combat speed to when he first when Super Saiyan. In the new movie Vegeta even has a laser-dodging feat while training in base form but we're just gonna have to wait for its English release to consider it.

It's common knowledge that bloodlusted Wally West is nigh-uncontestable because he would amp himself up to full power at the start of any fight. His feat of trillions of the speed of light is legitimately Godlike. I've never really debated that fact from the start, even if his strikes were limited to light-speed, like I thought at first, he could still run a hundred times or a million times the speed of light and hit his foe with that force.

I was merely questioning if the force of his punches scaled with his speed into the millions-of-times-the-speed-of-light, or if they were limited to the force of a light-speed IMP.

You see Flash's is not entirely like Quicksilver, who cannot willingly speed or slow down his superspeed and thus lives his life as if everyone else were speaking and moving very slowly. Perhaps to a certain extent Flash is metahuman and thus superhumanly powerful and quick, but it is clear his FTL feats come from consciously amping himself with the Speed Force.

And Goku uses IT to track Bills whose travel speed was incredible. Though again, haven't seen the whole movie.

Still I can see that's as far as we'll go in this debate. I wish Flash fans were more open-minded and didn't always spout the same bullshit of,

"HIS REACTION TIME IS FEMTOSECOND. UNLESS YOU HAVE FASTER REACTION TIME THEN HE SPEED STEALS BEFORE THEY REACT. GG NO RE"

Which of course would be the case of Wally bloodlusted, but that is all. Both speed steal and amping himself up fully to fight an opponent requires bloodlust. The claim is just as bad as DBZ fans who say every solution to a DBZ battle is destroying a planet. It's most extreme circumstance. Only a bloodlusted Goku would do that, and if it had people on the planet he wouldn't even do it then (see when he teleported Semiperfect Cell from Earth to King Kai's planet) It's not the planets that are most relevant to DBZ but the people, but alas the people cannot survive without their fragile planets.

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CalebHara

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@uberhikari: Wally West has pretty much been the only Flash around for decades before Final Crisis, Flashpoint, and Flash: Rebirth because Barry Allen (apparently) died in Crisis on Infinite Earths. As for Barry Allen's pre-crisis feats, I don't know. Jay Garrick is the slowest Flash. And I know nothing about Bart Allen. But Wally West has consistently shown speed in the millions of times light speed. Sometimes in the trillions of times light speed.

When has he shown this speed?

Teleportation can't be used as a substitute for speed because once the person re-materializes they have to move at their normal speed with their normal reaction time. Thus, no forms of teleportation will work on Flash unless the person teleporting has reaction speed on par with Flash's. Flash has femtosecond reaction speed. Nobody in DBZ has reaction speed that fast.

I have only seen this confirmed in the new 52. Barry Allen stated that "the femto second something hits him, he can react." (Seems unreasonable, based on his showings so far in the new 52) But my question is, has this ever been confirmed for Wally?

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uberhikari

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@thc: First of all, you're the person who came into this thread without having any knowledge of Flash. You were making ridiculous claims about his attack speed being sub-luminal. Now, you're telling a thread full of people who obviously know more about Flash than you do what the limitation of Flash's power is? Flash has never had to "amp" himself on the speed force. The speed force is NOT like ki in DBZ where a person has to concentrate to generate it. The speed force is an extra-dimensional energy source that permeates the entirety of the DC multi-verse. It is ever present (both temporally and spatially) and wherever Flash is he's always connected to it. Heck, Barry Allen literally generates the speed force when he walks.

Do you have scans showing and specifically stating that Flash has to "amp" himself on the speed force to use his powers?

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uberhikari

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@calebhara: The feat I'm referring to that puts Wally West at trillions of times light speed is in JLA 89. He carried half a million people 35 miles away from a nuclear blast in something like .00001 femtoseconds. (Somebody actually posted scans of this feat in this thread.)

The fact that Wally West has at least picosecond reaction speed has been mentioned quite a few times (most notably in the feat mentioned above). Sometimes it's picosecond, sometimes attosecond, sometimes femtosecond, and VERY rarely zeptosecond.

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CalebHara

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#55  Edited By CalebHara

@uberhikari: I have seen the scan. I'm not sure if the writer didn't do his research, but there is an inconsistency.

No Caption Provided

It clearly states that Wally was moving at a hair's breadth short of the speed of light. But, in order for him to actually travel several miles, more than one million times in .00001 of a microsecond, he had to have been traveling millions, perhaps billions or trillions of times faster than light.

What was the writer trying to say when he made the bottom right corner of this page? am i just seeing this wrong?

Sometimes it's picosecond, sometimes attosecond, sometimes femtosecond, and VERY rarely zeptosecond.

This is insane. If Wally actually has femtosecond reaction time, nobody in DBZ could ever dream of touching him.

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uberhikari

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#56  Edited By uberhikari

@calebhara: I think the inconsistency argument would be stronger if there weren't other feats of Wally West going millions of times the speed of light. Other people have posted those feats in this thread.

Also, the fact that the narrator claims Wally went "a hair's breadth short of the speed of light" isn't inconsistent, it's a flat out contradiction. Either Wally West really performed the feat illustrated and described by the narrator or he didn't. He clearly performed the feat, the fact that the writer can't do math is immaterial, imo.

Edit: In case you didn't do the conversion .00001 microseconds = 10 picoseconds. And remember Flash had to make at least 250,000 round trips. So, divide 10 picoseconds by 250,000 and that gets you well below picosecond reaction speed.

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CalebHara

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@uberhikari: Thanks for the clarification. I have been constantly debating how fast Wally really is in my head for quite some time now.

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CalebHara

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That being said, Wally, even with morals on, with ease.

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Kingjohnrocks

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For both sides:

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debeze

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#60  Edited By debeze

flash wins do to his insane speed

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MethoKi

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For both sides:

No Caption Provided

No, It's pretty agreed by everyone here that Flash wins... Now at least.

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Dredeuced

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@uberhikari: I have seen the scan. I'm not sure if the writer didn't do his research, but there is an inconsistency.

No Caption Provided

It clearly states that Wally was moving at a hair's breadth short of the speed of light. But, in order for him to actually travel several miles, more than one million times in .00001 of a microsecond, he had to have been traveling millions, perhaps billions or trillions of times faster than light.

What was the writer trying to say when he made the bottom right corner of this page? am i just seeing this wrong?

Sometimes it's picosecond, sometimes attosecond, sometimes femtosecond, and VERY rarely zeptosecond.

This is insane. If Wally actually has femtosecond reaction time, nobody in DBZ could ever dream of touching him.

Wally's highest feats have him creating an entire battle strategy against solaris in a zeptosecond (or, rather, a billion plans in a nanosecond, which would mean 1 plan per zeptosecond):

He has searched 500,000 people in 1 picosecond:

If you assume he had to cover atleast a meter of distance for each person (just to make the math easier), 500,000 meters in 1 picosecond would be one person searched for every 2 attoseconds passed. He's got more like this as I've posted, and he can crank it up to that speed instantly -- as soon as he processed the super speed thought that he had to find the mind controllers.

I would love for THC to show me Flash getting hit by a Boomerang, while aware of the fight, post Kadabra/Walter West arc. Wally gets hit by his rogues because of prep time and surprises, which is something Goku has neither of because Flash is aware of the fight and Goku has no prep. I don't think it's a debate on whether or not Flash can speed up faster than Goku can power up to any of his Super Saiyan forms, either.

also, Wally has used speed steal many times without being bloodlusted. I don't get why he thinks Wally only uses it when bloodlusted. He's opened multiple fights and scenarios with speed steal while completely in character.

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CalebHara

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@dredeuced: To be honest, before this thread, i thought that Wally was one of the most overrated people in Comic Vine. I did some research, and i now know why it is almost impossible to beat him with morals off/ bloodlusted. This guy is absolutely insane. Goku, nor any character ind the DBZ universe could hit Wally in their wildest dreams.

And to be honest, i think that is complete PIS any time anyone from his rouges tags him (i have seen a few exceptions) but as far as i am concerned as long as he knows the attacks is coming, he should be able to get out of the way, easily.

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Dredeuced

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@calebhara: Most of the times his rogues tag him were before he got significant power ups. Afterwards he literally takes on two sets of his rogues during rogue wars and beats all of them. Most heroes only deal with their villains one or two at a time, Wally frequently and successfully takes on every Rogue, all of which are much more powerful than people give them credit for, and always wins.

I mean I guess you can post some scans from the later 80s to early 90s before Wally learned the speed formula or defeated Kobra and he probably gets owned by his rogues, but that kind of misses the crucial context. It's like saying Superman can't go FTL when he couldn't in the early 90s.

It's why I made that specific statement about THC saying "Well Flash gets hit by boomerangs" and called him out for not actually knowing when in Wally's chronology it happened.

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jaywray

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#65  Edited By jaywray

@jaywray said:

@alexman113:

We're getting a bit off topic, and once again, I agree, Flash wins.

Saying he was faster than instantiation movement is blatant WIS, unless Flash was reversing time that's fundamentally incorrect, or that species doesn't actually have true instantaneous movement.

If Flash was however turning back time there, then okay, I know that's within his powers to do so.

If Flash runs 500 trillion times the speed of light, he'd still be slower than true instant movement without time travel.

Ill happily concede if we're using Flash time travel though :)

That scan is from The Human Race story arc, where, at that moment, flash had taken the speed of every single being on Earth, both superbeings and normal people, AND the speed of an entire race of people made out of radio waves who are, by their own nature, incredibly fast. He basically covered the entire universe in a zeptosecond, which was faster than the Gamblers could materialized despite their distance covered being instant.

Basically, Flash was so fast that he was instantaneous, but didn't have the limit of having to materialize through his means like the Gamblers.

Ahhh thank you for the clarification, so he's faster than all the materialization processes.

I can gladly take that.

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Dredeuced

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@jaywray said:

@dredeuced said:

@jaywray said:

@alexman113:

We're getting a bit off topic, and once again, I agree, Flash wins.

Saying he was faster than instantiation movement is blatant WIS, unless Flash was reversing time that's fundamentally incorrect, or that species doesn't actually have true instantaneous movement.

If Flash was however turning back time there, then okay, I know that's within his powers to do so.

If Flash runs 500 trillion times the speed of light, he'd still be slower than true instant movement without time travel.

Ill happily concede if we're using Flash time travel though :)

That scan is from The Human Race story arc, where, at that moment, flash had taken the speed of every single being on Earth, both superbeings and normal people, AND the speed of an entire race of people made out of radio waves who are, by their own nature, incredibly fast. He basically covered the entire universe in a zeptosecond, which was faster than the Gamblers could materialized despite their distance covered being instant.

Basically, Flash was so fast that he was instantaneous, but didn't have the limit of having to materialize through his means like the Gamblers.

Ahhh thank you for the clarification, so he's faster than all the materialization processes.

I can gladly take that.

Yeah, which on panel took the one zeptosecond it also took for him to tune every radio on Earth, lol. Human Race Wally is the fastest thing ever.

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jaywray

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Ahhh thank you for the clarification, so he's faster than all the materialization processes.

I can gladly take that.

Yeah, which on panel took the one zeptosecond it also took for him to tune every radio on Earth, lol. Human Race Wally is the fastest thing ever.

I just don't like words basically losing meaning to extremes, if something is instant then it should be treated as such, but I can take the materialization process taking longer :)

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Xaa

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#68  Edited By Xaa

Flash

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MirrorWave4

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#69  Edited By MirrorWave4

Goku Curbestomp

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Cardle_grave

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Goku Stomps is face into the ground

His reaction speed is MFTL, he one-shots him easily

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ComicStooge

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Lock it.

Flash wins.

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Cardle_grave

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#72  Edited By Cardle_grave

Please, Base Vegeta in BOG was dodging multiple lasers and lasers are 300x faster than light

And thats base, Flash won't even hit him

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OverLordArhas

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#73  Edited By OverLordArhas