Flash vs Goku

Ehhhhhhh......

Post Crisis Flash

Current Goku

Wally, Jay or Barry? If Barry, pre flash point or post flash point?

@dredeuced: post-Crisis would imply Wally, I'd think.

Imo it doesn't matter which version (unless Jay, but I don't think he meant Jay) - Wally or Barry, pre- or post-flashpoint would just be way too fast for Goku. Wally and pre-Flashpoint Barry win via IMP, speed steal, or phase fist, post-flashpoint Barry wins via speed mind and speed force dump. In any of the scenarios Goku can't tag him and gets rocked.

well, SSJG is FTL or at the very least, he can keep up with them. i mean Bills is MFTL i believe so i think Goku could pull a win against Jay and Barry.

Flash.

@theorder14: Just no.
I don't know if New Goku is FTL, given that i haven't seen the movie. However, The Flash will not lose to Goku. Unless you can post some serious speed feats from this new movie, The Flash destroys him before he has the time to even consider SSJG form.

flash wins without much trouble.

@bossmonster: base form Goku have shown to react to FTL attacks multiple times and i just as you say that Goku wouldn't *consider* SSJG i can just say that Flash doesn't start running at FTL either. Well, Goku is capable of one shotting Flashes so i believe that he could win against Jay and Barry. Anyway, don't bother post to me anymore pls because i won't reply just as u didn't reply to me some time ago. it's obvious that u dislike dbz

For Flash to do that he'd have to be blood lusted.

Flash wins, but since Goku can tap into the SSJG modes power at any time, and can Instant transmission any time, he'd probably be able to keep up with flash for a good bit until Flash gets serious and wins.

Flash.

@jaywray: When I say crush, I don't mean in the actually sense of the word.
IT has been responded to by people that have much much slower reaction time than The Flash. Kid Buu is one and Super 17 is another (if you count GT. I personally don't)
Point being, that's just not fast enough. If it's a fight to the death, Flash will start serious. He might not be blood lust, IMP at start serious, but Goku can not tag The Flash.

Ok.

1) I do not care if you respond or not. If i didn't reply to you "some time ago" it's probably because I had other things to do that Post on this board that I generally only do when I"m at my day job or board with free time.

2)However, it's likely I didn't respond to you because you are another one of those people that doesn't know how to read or doesn't try to. Given that you are saying

just as you say that Goku wouldn't *consider* SSJG

But what i actually said was

The Flash destroys him before he has the time to even consider SSJG form.

Huge difference there. I'm sure Goku would do it against someone as fast as The Flash, but would he have the chance to consider it in a death battle where The Flash starts off serious?? No. Never.

3)The Flash doesn't start off FTL?? With a Life on the line, yeah, he does. Always.

4)Why would I hate DBZ? Do I favor the show/mange. No. DB is better. The fact is they Goku can not take Top Teir DC characters. Very few Character can.

5)One Shot a Flash. I'm sure any one could do that. The issue is actually hitting them. Which is why I say Goku will not defeat The Flash. How will he hit him? FTL doesn't mean FTF (Faster than Flash) It doesn't even mean as fast as The Flash.

Never the less, I don't care if you respond or not, but if you happen to read this post, please read it correctly.

Please don't bring up GT.

Btw IT is faster than flash in every single way, the only people faster than IT are Zoom level.

True people have reacted to IT, but saying "Point being, that's just not fast enough." when it's literally infinitely faster than Flash is a bit much, regardless current Goku can tap into God mode at any time.

Flash doesn't start off giving everything he's got, he's never done that.

Either way Flash wins, as you said he could react to IT, but I doubt you've seen any of the clips from the movie of Goku using it, he's on a different level that the IT that was used before, he's mastered it in combat.

Flash gets serious then wins, it's out of character to blitz right off the bat.

Flash is faster than instant and he clearly looks relaxed doing it.

Regardless if Flash is "serious" or not he is also working with the world in slow motion.

Flash could also steal Goku's speed and make himself faster.

@alexman113: We're getting a bit off topic, and once again, I agree, Flash wins.

Saying he was faster than instantiation movement is blatant WIS, unless Flash was reversing time that's fundamentally incorrect, or that species doesn't actually have true instantaneous movement.

If Flash was however turning back time there, then okay, I know that's within his powers to do so.

If Flash runs 500 trillion times the speed of light, he'd still be slower than true instant movement without time travel.

Ill happily concede if we're using Flash time travel though :)

Flash.

@jaywray: You put so much stock in the name, yet don't realize the reality of the even it self. Perhaps, I should just stick with the fact that The Flash is faster than Goku/ This is the bottom line. However, by prox, this makes him faster than IT. Why? Because Goku has to actually use it.

1)Take the scan above of Flash and Superman. Superman saying that his senses are speed up to match the flash in a causal setting and it's like the world has stopped. What does this imply for Goku/IT? That before Goku can think to use IT, Flash could have hit him millions of times.

2)Goku never moves place to Place with IT. He moves energy source to energy source. Which means he has to a)Think to use it b)find a source c)lock on d)telelport. Too slow

3) I have never said that Goku can't go God mode. Never. Much like SSJ1-SSJ4 it always takes time to actually do. But Even beyond that, goku has to actually make the decision that "Hey, this a tough fight, I better go God mode" and from there go though whatever time it takes for him to actually do this. Again, too slow. Flash could IMP him in the time it takes him to consider the gravity of the fight.

4)I haven't see the newest movie. And honestly, I want to just so I can be in the loop of these new debates. So if you have a link, please do send it.
Unless you are talking about old movies in which they are not canon.

Flash ftw

Um, show me a single scan or clip of Goku reacting FTL...not just a fast reaction that you claim is FTL, but that's ACTUALLY stated to be FTL. Many comic characters can travel FTL but can't react nearly that fast (Thor being a great example). Flash not only moves FTL but can react and think FTL as well, which is why imo Goku has no chance.

Ah, there's where we were talking about 2 different things, I was purely saying IT travel speed is quicker, and yes Flash would be more than quick enough to catch base Goku and 1 hit KO him, I just don't think I've ever seen Flash do that at the start of a fight, or if he has it's been against street levelers.

He can infact move place to place now, much like in the Cell fight when he IT without any prep or thinking, just did it. Also God mode just like SSJ1-3 can be done almost instantly, it's a quick "RAAGH" and it's there.

Again, please read this. I've said it many times now Flash winsI haven't said other wise, once. I simply don't think it's in his character at all in the slightest to go all out from the very beginning, if that's the case then the instant the fight starts Goku would be in SSJG, which again, wouldn't make sense at all, you're having double standards here.

Ill have a look around for the SSJG Goku vs Bills fight, but they get taken down off Youtube all the time @neongamewave seems to have a few of them.

Flash stomps before Goku even puts two fingers to his forehead ....

Goku can't hit what he can't see.

Flash.

Agreed, Barry or Wally take this without too much effort.

How do you think Goku would fair against Jay or Bart?

Flash would be fast enough to get to Goku before he could do anything.

That scan is from The Human Race story arc, where, at that moment, flash had taken the speed of every single being on Earth, both superbeings and normal people, AND the speed of an entire race of people made out of radio waves who are, by their own nature, incredibly fast. He basically covered the entire universe in a zeptosecond, which was faster than the Gamblers could materialized despite their distance covered being instant.

Basically, Flash was so fast that he was instantaneous, but didn't have the limit of having to materialize through his means like the Gamblers.

Most people agree Flash's striking force with the IMP as well as combat speed are superior to Superman's in general.

I recall no feats of the IMP being used faster than light.

Morals on Flash usually operates at a much slower level than light speed, thus decreasing his reactions, travel and combat speed to levels such that Rogues can tag him with boomerangs.

Flash only speed steals in the most dire of situations. Phase-handing is also a bit out of his nature, it is more of Zoom's move. Even morals off and/or bloodlusted Wally cannot be expected to use either of these moves unless he is in danger.

Even if the battle came down to speed-stealing, DBZ characters can release omnidirectional ki-blasts like Vegeta at 8:04:

The Spirit Bomb is planet-busting and is clearly much weaker than Vegeta's Gallick gun and Goku's x4 Kamehameha which Vegeta fully tanked earlier on and shrugs off the Spirit Bomb in seconds. There's no question Vegeta could tank a few IMPs by his first appearance.

Before Goku fought Frieza he travelled about halfway across Namek - which is much larger than Earth - in about a second.

Scaling logic (i.e. the knowledge you get from watching the entire series rather than just individual scans) easily puts Goku and Frieza at light speed or slightly above after he went Super Saiyan:

At the very least, they were very close to it, such that there's no question whether they were FTL by the time Gohan reached SSJ2

DBZ battles operate just like that Superman/Flash scan:

So coming from a non-fanboy...

The battle starts in Flash's favour, though Goku is able to dodge the majority of his attacks, as he can sense every single one of Flash's movements in the atmosphere (including minor bodily movements) that are not FTL, as well as knowing Flash's intentions to attack before he does through telepathy, and sensing his ki energy if he goes FTL.

Goku eventually wins by knocking Flash out with a ki-blast or going Super Saiyan and overpowering him.

Nice post, you've got some really good points here. Though I still would find it difficult for Goku to tag Flash with anykind of ki blast, the guy's just that fast. And by Goku overpowering Flash what do you mean by that? It's clear Goku even in base is vastly a more physical specimen. Flash's power is in his speed, which gives him the juice needed to compete with the top dogs.

Just curious about the overpower comment.

He IMPs Professor Zoom in a fight that lasts less than a picosecond, so he was clearly fighting at FTL Speeds and delivered an IMP. Also when he fought Zoom, they were throwing earth shattering blows while travelling greatly faster than light.

And frankly, Goku being incredibly fast just benefits Flash himself. He can steal Goku's speed, increasing his own by that same amount. Flash is quite broken.

Also, I don't believe any of these indicate the hundreds of millions of times the speed of light that Flash has operated at before, so I'd disagree that any Z-fighter can keep up with Wally when he's playing it serious.

Hm I never thought of the fact that he's tagged Zoom with them. I was under the impression Flash's physical strikes were limited to just under light speed but yeah that changes things.

True about speed stealing; as Goku increases his speed through Ki, Flash doesn't even need to increase his own through the Speed Force as he can just steal Goku's.

Though Goku can not only make his punches powerful by speeding them up with ki, but by increasing his strength and thus the force of his punches through ki, as Roshi and Cell and such have done countless times. And we all know what happens when someone with strength and speed like Superman tags Flash.

Not to insinuate Goku's strength is on par with Superman, it's just the most well-known feat of Goku failing to lift 40 tons is horribly misconstrued for a number of reasons, namely that he was training for days beforehand and at the time performing the Sky Dance Technique for training which makes lifting far more difficult.

In comparison, pre-Super Saiyan Vegeta should weigh around 70 tons under 450x gravity and was moving around with brilliant speed and doing upside-down 1-fingered push-ups:

And the fact is that gravity training is inherently different than weight training, like bench-pressing, that we as humans are accustomed to. It's another thing that's pretty unique to DBZ.

Humans could hardly survive under 2x normal gravity not because of strength, in fact astronauts do it all the time, the issue is with our hearts and other vital organs being too weak to sustain our body as well as issues with blood pressure and such.

Can you provide scans of Flash's fight with Zoom or otherwise physically fighting FTL?

As Goku's ki power increases, so too does his durability, speed, reactions, striking and ki blast power, striking and ki blast speed, and every other statistic he has. Most of his statistics are greater than Flash's when it comes to raw power.

It is feasible yet speculative to guess that abilities such as the Speed Steal may be limited in effect to Flash's connection to the Speed Force, as high-end reality warpers such as Shenron and King Kai were unable to *poof* the Saiyans away with their abilities, simply because the Saiyans had more ki power. Yet Shenron and King Kai's warping abilities are irrefutably much higher than planetary scale.

@thc: Scan of him fighting professor Zoom in a Picosecond. If you did even the barest calculations this is millions of times the speed of light:

Gallery

His fight with Zoom, where they're at minimum going twice as fast as light, and presumptively going magnitudes beyond that (every inch of the Earth and whatnot)

Gallery

As you can see, single hits are sending them thousands of miles (from Rome to China in one panel) and they do this thousands of times -- so fast that not even Superman can perceive the fight that's going on. While the whole "White dwarf star" tagline of IMPs isn't outright stated, Zoom's hits are doing to Wally what they did to Wonder Woman when he IMP'd her and vice versa.

He's got many other sub picosecond feats and junk but those are the ones you asked for.

@thc:

Hm I never thought of the fact that he's tagged Zoom with them. I was under the impression Flash's physical strikes were limited to just under light speed but yeah that changes things.

You're a prime example of why it's not even worth debating some DBZ fans. You come into threads without having any knowledge of the other characters and declare Goku the winner by fiat. How you ever came to the conclusion that Flash's attacks were limited to sub-luminal speeds is beyond me.

Goku, if he doesn't get speed blitzed.

@dredeuced

I'm looking through them now and I have one question in regards to Flash's speed stealing. What's stopping Flash from simply speed-stealing high-end DC villains like Darkseid and such in his experiences with the Justice League?

Also how many Flash's on record have gone at such extreme FTL speeds?

If there's anything that's been made clear it's characters like Wally would appear as Flashes even in the DBZverse. Though I'm sure there are still instances of even him being KO'd that DBZ characters can replicate.

Particularly a weakness to AoE blasts. I know Wally and others apparently have legitimate feats of flying, but if Goku can get in the air, a bloodlusted Goku could theoretically send out a solar-system busting blast that consumes the planet and Instant Transmission away to the closest ki source he finds in the universe (unless it's our real universe where we aren't sure if there's any other life so Goku might be screwed in that instance).

I mean, Flash has been tagged by the Rogues' boomerangs because his senses weren't amped up enough and he was caught by surprise. Given that, Goku could possibly Instant Transmission behind him and slug him in the back of the head with a planet-shattering punch delivered at many times the speed of light.

It says current Goku, so in base form, he'd be able to one-punch Frieza, who survived Namek's explosion on the brink of death.

?? I didn't know we were still debating who would win this. I was only talking about IT vs The Flashes Speed. Perhaps the way I was phrasing it lead you to think otherwise, but I was only talking about that.

I will go on to debate with you on the travel speed of IT and The Flash with a often use but still amazing scan of the Flash doing his thing.

Gallery

I do not believe that Goku using IT can match this feat. If you can show me something that does, I will more than change my opinion that Goku travels faster with IT than Flash does running.

Lastly, in a battle to the death, Flash is always serious and responds to the threat. Like in the fight (I know this is pre 52.) against Prime where they all pulled him into the speed force. I'm bring that up because, Goku is known for fighting to the death and still holding back until the very last minute, like against Vegeta the second time or Cell.

Plot convenience for the first one. Same reason Superman just doesn't always sun dip or GL doesn't use an energy blast capable of killing a Guardian powered by the 7 emotion entities. Also, it was the last power Wally learned in his run. he had it for only a few years before the Flash series went on a 3 year hiatus, then Rebirth happened and Barry became the main character and Wally basically disappeared. Cue Flashpoint and Wally never existed. Lack of opportunities, I suppose.

Wally and I think Alternate Future Bart have gone that fast. Wally is the only one to do it consistently, which is why we usually separate him from all the other Flashes.

Wally's KOs are usually plot contrived, him taking it easy, or him getting surprised. Sometimes it's stuff like Amazo, who can go as fast as Flash no matter how fast he goes, or Cheetah being Amp'd by Zoom (his hard counter) or Doomsday being teh walking plot device that he is.

Wally's weakness to AoE blasts is overstated. I can show you instances of him phasing through large explosions or outrunning nuke blasts quite easily. Wally can time travel if you want to go the bloodlusted route, so he could just go back to when Goku was on the ground and paste him.

Goku's instant transmission requires him concentrating then using it, and Goku does not think at Zeptosecond speeds like Wally has. In the time Goku could process that thought Wally would already be at hyper speeds.

Any number of things would stop Flash from speed stealing Darkseid. Depending on the incarnation he's shown time manipulation, dimensional manipulation, he almost always has force fields, he has some form of cosmic awareness, he can teleport himself and other beings/objects, etc. But if Flash could get to him and touch him, there's really nothing stopping him from using speed steal.

Wally West has pretty much been the only Flash around for decades before Final Crisis, Flashpoint, and Flash: Rebirth because Barry Allen (apparently) died in Crisis on Infinite Earths. As for Barry Allen's pre-crisis feats, I don't know. Jay Garrick is the slowest Flash. And I know nothing about Bart Allen. But Wally West has consistently shown speed in the millions of times light speed. Sometimes in the trillions of times light speed.

While it's possible to KO Flash, the problem is that he's not easy to hit. Flash with CIS and PIS turned off is pretty much impossible to hit by anyone who doesn't have some sort of time manipulation like Zoom. This also means that large AofE blasts don't matter unless the blast itself is so fast that Flash can't outrun it. Flash can even run in frictionless environments like space. Moreover, Wally West can even phase through energy.

Teleportation can't be used as a substitute for speed because once the person re-materializes they have to move at their normal speed with their normal reaction time. Thus, no forms of teleportation will work on Flash unless the person teleporting has reaction speed on par with Flash's. Flash has femtosecond reaction speed. Nobody in DBZ has reaction speed that fast.

The point is this: Goku will never touch Wally West.

if bloodlusted

-goku can blow up the earth.

-flash can time jump and kill baby kakarot .

if not bloodlusted idk how goku touches flash and if he cant figure out a way to get passed it, i dont think goku would mind conceding

When has Goku ever blown up any planet or moon? Flash wins 10/10, IMO.

@batman242: Are you denying that Goku can planet bust?

No I'm not. If Master Roshi and Piccolo can do it to a moon, why can't Goku do it to a planet? I'm asking when has he ever done it. It's not something he's gonna think to do. Flash would still stop whatever Goku's plans are since he thinks faster than anyone ever possibly could.

@batman242: Oh, ok. I misunderstood you, lol. But yeah, you're right.

@batman242: aw we meet again detective, let us begin shall we

To answer your question my good man, no, he has not blown up a planet, mostly cuz goku isn't evil, but that does not mean he cannot. he has more than the amount of ki to do so. dont believe me, fine read or watch dbz. well and im not arguing with you that goku wins here either, even if he blows up the planet, flash could jump to another dimension. flash is beyond any other type of superhero

I never said Goku can't. I know very well that he can, but you're saying he can just blow up a planet populated with people that he apparently tries to save to kill one person who he most likely won't even be able to hit... Like you said.

@batman242: thats why i said bloodlusted like "grrr im gonna do what ever i can to kill you" meaning goku not being in character cuz he wouldnt just kill anybody. frieza killed he's bestie and he still didnt kill him tell after the last straw, and how would goku know that flash could dimension or time jump?

1. Bloodlust isn't on

2. Morals aren't specified.

3. Goku is basically always bloodlusted. He always tries to kill, so saying morals on or off would be the difference.

He would still have to fire a blast and Flash can just hit him before he even thrusts his hands forward.

@batman242:

1: thats why i said "IF"

2: thats why i said "IF" and "IF NOT" in my first post

3:not really, the only main villain he didnt mind trying to kill was cell. he even felt compassion for boo by not killing the fatass one and wishing he didnt have to kill the kid one.

This is pointless..... Flash wins. None of what we're talking about matters.

Agreed