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#1 Edited by highaccuser (5501 posts) - - Show Bio

Wally West

vs:

Human Green Lanterns

Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, John Stewart, Alan Scott

Rules:

  • Pre-new 52 versions.
  • No full starheart for Alan.
  • Morals ON.
  • No BFR.

Who wins?

#3 Posted by reaverlation (13925 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals on?

They go out for a pizza instead

#4 Posted by dondave (34339 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, they wouldn't fight each other

#5 Posted by Ultragreenboy (1390 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by highaccuser (5501 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals on?

They go out for a pizza instead

Think they like pepperoni?

@dondave said:

Yeah, they wouldn't fight each other

Battle forum rules. They will.

#7 Edited by reaverlation (13925 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation said:

Morals on?

They go out for a pizza instead

Think they like pepperoni?

@dondave said:

Yeah, they wouldn't fight each other

Battle forum rules. They will.

Probably.Overall Lanterns then

#8 Posted by OreoAssassin (4156 posts) - - Show Bio

Lanterns

#9 Posted by beatboks1 (6988 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals on?

They go out for a pizza instead

@dondave said:

Yeah, they wouldn't fight each other

And if they did, no way is wally beating all four lanterns. John alone has set his ring to auto fire to deal with great speed

#10 Posted by highaccuser (5501 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@reaverlation said:

Morals on?

They go out for a pizza instead

Think they like pepperoni?

@dondave said:

Yeah, they wouldn't fight each other

Battle forum rules. They will.

Probably.Overall Lanterns then

Reasons?

#11 Posted by chaos911 (714 posts) - - Show Bio

Where's guy? Green lanterns win with morals

#12 Edited by reaverlation (13925 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: John wouldn't beat Wally alone

@highaccuser: Numbers and versatility.

#13 Posted by highaccuser (5501 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: John wouldn't beat Wally alone

@highaccuser: Numbers and versatility.

Fair enough reasoning.

John actually has really good showings against Wally, but yeah he can't win alone.

#14 Posted by highaccuser (5501 posts) - - Show Bio

@chaos911 said:

Where's guy? Green lanterns win with morals

Guys nothing. I thought the surfer level beast that is Alan would be better suited here.

#15 Posted by beatboks1 (6988 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: John wouldn't beat Wally alone

@highaccuser: Numbers and versatility.

I never said he would. I said he had already come up with a way of dealing with great Speed. No mention of win or anything else. If one of the four can actually tag wally all four will replicate it. Alan has the power of time manipulation which he could use to make all four of them Zoom to Wally and make Wally's speed insignificant.

#16 Edited by reaverlation (13925 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Even with the auto fire, not like Wally would be KO'd from 1 hit nor would it touch Wally anyways.Wally can just take their speed as an easy way out and as a way of not hurting his fellow leaguers/friends

#17 Posted by WillPayton (9156 posts) - - Show Bio

@reaverlation said:

@beatboks1: John wouldn't beat Wally alone

@highaccuser: Numbers and versatility.

I never said he would. I said he had already come up with a way of dealing with great Speed. No mention of win or anything else. If one of the four can actually tag wally all four will replicate it. Alan has the power of time manipulation which he could use to make all four of them Zoom to Wally and make Wally's speed insignificant.

The question is whether Alan will have time to decide to do this and then implement the action. I think he wont. Flash can speed-steal him or blitz before Alan can even think. Without full Starheart and bloodlust, Alan cant take Flash out in time.

The only question here is whether the Lanterns start with their rings set to auto-fire. If so then they can win. If not, then they lose.

#18 Edited by Oni_Bane (1558 posts) - - Show Bio

GLs

*runs away*

#19 Edited by dondave (34339 posts) - - Show Bio

Lanterns

#20 Edited by dondave (34339 posts) - - Show Bio

Lanterns

#21 Edited by highaccuser (5501 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1 said:

@reaverlation said:

@beatboks1: John wouldn't beat Wally alone

@highaccuser: Numbers and versatility.

I never said he would. I said he had already come up with a way of dealing with great Speed. No mention of win or anything else. If one of the four can actually tag wally all four will replicate it. Alan has the power of time manipulation which he could use to make all four of them Zoom to Wally and make Wally's speed insignificant.

The question is whether Alan will have time to decide to do this and then implement the action. I think he wont. Flash can speed-steal him or blitz before Alan can even think. Without full Starheart and bloodlust, Alan cant take Flash out in time.

The only question here is whether the Lanterns start with their rings set to auto-fire. If so then they can win. If not, then they lose.

The auto fire argument is crap. Lanterns have been reacting in nanoseconds for years without any mention of it.

#22 Edited by AllStarSuperman (19943 posts) - - Show Bio

Lanterns

#23 Edited by WillPayton (9156 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

@beatboks1 said:

@reaverlation said:

@beatboks1: John wouldn't beat Wally alone

@highaccuser: Numbers and versatility.

I never said he would. I said he had already come up with a way of dealing with great Speed. No mention of win or anything else. If one of the four can actually tag wally all four will replicate it. Alan has the power of time manipulation which he could use to make all four of them Zoom to Wally and make Wally's speed insignificant.

The question is whether Alan will have time to decide to do this and then implement the action. I think he wont. Flash can speed-steal him or blitz before Alan can even think. Without full Starheart and bloodlust, Alan cant take Flash out in time.

The only question here is whether the Lanterns start with their rings set to auto-fire. If so then they can win. If not, then they lose.

The auto fire argument is crap. Lanterns have been reacting in nanoseconds for years without any mention of it.

There are examples of them reacting fast, but also examples of them getting blitzed before they can react. This suggests that they have to amp their thought process before they can do so.

#24 Edited by reaverlation (13925 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: That literally works for everyone. Examples of Superman being fast but also getting blitzed.

#25 Edited by highaccuser (5501 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@willpayton said:

@beatboks1 said:

@reaverlation said:

@beatboks1: John wouldn't beat Wally alone

@highaccuser: Numbers and versatility.

I never said he would. I said he had already come up with a way of dealing with great Speed. No mention of win or anything else. If one of the four can actually tag wally all four will replicate it. Alan has the power of time manipulation which he could use to make all four of them Zoom to Wally and make Wally's speed insignificant.

The question is whether Alan will have time to decide to do this and then implement the action. I think he wont. Flash can speed-steal him or blitz before Alan can even think. Without full Starheart and bloodlust, Alan cant take Flash out in time.

The only question here is whether the Lanterns start with their rings set to auto-fire. If so then they can win. If not, then they lose.

The auto fire argument is crap. Lanterns have been reacting in nanoseconds for years without any mention of it.

There are examples of them reacting fast, but also examples of them getting blitzed before they can react. This suggests that they have to amp their thought process before they can do so.

I know of no examples where they get blitzed before they can react. Sometimes it takes them a bit to tag really fast objects(Professor Zoom, Superluminal starships), but that's not a problem someone like Superman wouldn't encounter.

#26 Edited by beatboks1 (6988 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1 said:

@reaverlation said:

@beatboks1: John wouldn't beat Wally alone

@highaccuser: Numbers and versatility.

I never said he would. I said he had already come up with a way of dealing with great Speed. No mention of win or anything else. If one of the four can actually tag wally all four will replicate it. Alan has the power of time manipulation which he could use to make all four of them Zoom to Wally and make Wally's speed insignificant.

The question is whether Alan will have time to decide to do this and then implement the action. I think he wont. Flash can speed-steal him or blitz before Alan can even think. Without full Starheart and bloodlust, Alan cant take Flash out in time.

The only question here is whether the Lanterns start with their rings set to auto-fire. If so then they can win. If not, then they lose.

Alan wouldn't need time. he can survive a blitz attack from wally because he is pure energy and therefore there is very little Wally will be able to do to finish him off. Since John will likely have his ring set to auto fire ( the only lantern with that feat) Wally will frankly be busy dodging John's counters and not have a chance to Blitz anyone else anyway. In all likelihood Wally would only get a chance to make a single strike/attack against any of the other three lanterns before being pushed somewhat on the defensive by dodging John's counter. The other three would likely copy this action meaning Wally is then dodging 4 Lanterns on Auto fire. This easily gives Alan a chance to alter their time rates and make them functionally much faster than Wally.

Game over. Lanterns WIN

The auto fire argument is crap. Lanterns have been reacting in nanoseconds for years without any mention of it.

We all know Wally reacts greater than "nanosecond". We also know they have to use the ring to create a field that allows that and let's not forget they also usually have relativity on their side ( i.e they can react because they are moving at those speeds). John's feat allowed a greater reaction from a stationary and unprepared stance.

#27 Edited by reaverlation (13925 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: You realize Wally can dodge Lantern blasts like trash right, regardless of the auto-fire right?

Don't know why I'm continuing this when I already gave the win to the Lanterns...

#28 Edited by highaccuser (5501 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1:

We all know Wally reacts greater than "nanosecond". We also know they have to use the ring to create a field that allows that and let's not forget they also usually have relativity on their side ( i.e they can react because they are moving at those speeds). John's feat allowed a greater reaction from a stationary and unprepared stance.

Wally is faster than nanoseconds, but Lanterns don't need and rarely use forcefields for reaction feats.

#29 Edited by WillPayton (9156 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: That literally works for everyone. Examples of Superman being fast but also getting blitzed.

That's true, but we also have to take into consideration how many times each happens. Also, how many examples do we have where a Lantern is seen to clearly react at nanosecond times? I can probably think of 1 or 2, but not more. And in those cases it's not specified exactly how fast he reacted. That's not a good record. And, I'm a huge Lantern fan myself.

Alan wouldn't need time. he can survive a blitz attack from wally because he is pure energy and therefore there is very little Wally will be able to do to finish him off.

Yup, Alan is pure magical energy, but in-character he's also susceptible to his mental state. This means that he can be physically hurt or KO'ed unless he decides that he's immune to it. We have seen him get tagged and hurt by physical attacks in the past, and only when he's possessed by the Starheart does he completely overcome that limitation.

#30 Posted by highaccuser (5501 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

That's true, but we also have to take into consideration how many times each happens. Also, how many examples do we have where a Lantern is seen to clearly react at nanosecond times? I can probably think of 1 or 2, but not more. And in those cases it's not specified exactly how fast he reacted. That's not a good record. And, I'm a huge Lantern fan myself.

How many times?

  1. Kyle stopped a ship moving at 7 times the speed of light.
  2. Hal tagged professor Zoom 3 times when they fought.
  3. Hal tagged a moving Zoom.
  4. John stopped a blitzing Superman with Superman noting he was a faster draw than Wally.
  5. John beats Wally off panel.
  6. John stops kid amazo when he was running faster than Wally.
  7. Alan easily beats a speedster.
  8. Alan keeps up with Jay while talking to him.

That's 10 times altogether.

#31 Posted by Joygirl (18476 posts) - - Show Bio

Ends in sex.

#32 Posted by WillPayton (9156 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

That's true, but we also have to take into consideration how many times each happens. Also, how many examples do we have where a Lantern is seen to clearly react at nanosecond times? I can probably think of 1 or 2, but not more. And in those cases it's not specified exactly how fast he reacted. That's not a good record. And, I'm a huge Lantern fan myself.

How many times?

  1. Kyle stopped a ship moving at 7 times the speed of light.
  2. Hal tagged professor Zoom 3 times when they fought.
  3. Hal tagged a moving Zoom.
  4. John stopped a blitzing Superman with Superman noting he was a faster draw than Wally.
  5. John beats Wally off panel.
  6. John stops kid amazo when he was running faster than Wally.
  7. Alan easily beats a speedster.
  8. Alan keeps up with Jay while talking to him.

That's 10 times altogether.

I remember some of those, some I dont. From the ones I do remember, it wasnt clear just how fast the Lantern was moving or reaction.

#33 Posted by highaccuser (5501 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser said:

@willpayton:

That's true, but we also have to take into consideration how many times each happens. Also, how many examples do we have where a Lantern is seen to clearly react at nanosecond times? I can probably think of 1 or 2, but not more. And in those cases it's not specified exactly how fast he reacted. That's not a good record. And, I'm a huge Lantern fan myself.

How many times?

  1. Kyle stopped a ship moving at 7 times the speed of light.
  2. Hal tagged professor Zoom 3 times when they fought.
  3. Hal tagged a moving Zoom.
  4. John stopped a blitzing Superman with Superman noting he was a faster draw than Wally.
  5. John beats Wally off panel.
  6. John stops kid amazo when he was running faster than Wally.
  7. Alan easily beats a speedster.
  8. Alan keeps up with Jay while talking to him.

That's 10 times altogether.

I remember some of those, some I dont. From the ones I do remember, it wasnt clear just how fast the Lantern was moving or reaction.

They were stationary for most of them. We don't need quantified reaction speed to know they entail nanoseconds.

#34 Posted by beatboks1 (6988 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: You realize Wally can dodge Lantern blasts like trash right, regardless of the auto-fire right?

Don't know why I'm continuing this when I already gave the win to the Lanterns...

AHHHH, I already said as much in my last post. Stating that Wally would Dodge first John than all four lanterns Auto fire giving Alan a chance to alter time rates. he wont be dodging anything when what is a year for wally is seconds for the lanterns, because just like Zoom appears to him as a blur so will they. That's why I said I never said John could solo. If wally couldn't dodge them he would wouldn't he???
#35 Posted by reaverlation (13925 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Is that something Alan would do in character to beat just Wally?

#36 Posted by chaos911 (714 posts) - - Show Bio

@highaccuser: true but if you're gonna have earth green lanterns might as well have the complete set

#37 Edited by Homer_X (828 posts) - - Show Bio

GL's most likely

#38 Posted by Awesomedude (1380 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals On? Lanterns.

#39 Posted by beatboks1 (6988 posts) - - Show Bio

Yup, Alan is pure magical energy, but in-character he's also susceptible to his mental state. This means that he can be physically hurt or KO'ed unless he decides that he's immune to it. We have seen him get tagged and hurt by physical attacks in the past, and only when he's possessed by the Starheart does he completely overcome that limitation.

Actually every single instance of Alan being harmed physically in combat has been when he was "mentally tired/ fatigued" or drained after a long battle or something like that. At the start of battles he has for example taken glows from the herald Gog and fared just as well as E-22 Superman. When Mordru took him down with the exploding boxes (which wasn't even a weakness at the time) it was retconned to be because he was so tired after the events of the Kingdom arc etc.

The whole reason why Alan is pure magical energy is because of classic GA and SA tales where he would internalize his energy to enhance his durability. He did this frequently and it became almost a default position. For example because his arch Foe Grundy could absorb the energy of his constructs he would internalize his power to make himself more of a brick and tank Grundy's attacks. He has just as many feats tanking powerful attacks without constructs as he has of succumbing to them.

#40 Edited by Jmarshmallow (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

Lanterns mostly due to morals.

Jmarshmallow

Online
#41 Posted by beatboks1 (6988 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Is that something Alan would do in character to beat just Wally?

Time manipulation is something Alan has done on a few occasions. he's done it to save Earth without harming the planet that threatened earth, and to save his friends, family and team mates. He's friends with all these Lanterns and I'd say he would want to defeat Wally without harming him. So frankly yes.

#42 Posted by Awesomedude (1380 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals On, Lantern, duh.

Morals Off, Wally.

#43 Edited by WillPayton (9156 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

@highaccuser said:

@willpayton:

That's true, but we also have to take into consideration how many times each happens. Also, how many examples do we have where a Lantern is seen to clearly react at nanosecond times? I can probably think of 1 or 2, but not more. And in those cases it's not specified exactly how fast he reacted. That's not a good record. And, I'm a huge Lantern fan myself.

How many times?

  1. Kyle stopped a ship moving at 7 times the speed of light.
  2. Hal tagged professor Zoom 3 times when they fought.
  3. Hal tagged a moving Zoom.
  4. John stopped a blitzing Superman with Superman noting he was a faster draw than Wally.
  5. John beats Wally off panel.
  6. John stops kid amazo when he was running faster than Wally.
  7. Alan easily beats a speedster.
  8. Alan keeps up with Jay while talking to him.

That's 10 times altogether.

I remember some of those, some I dont. From the ones I do remember, it wasnt clear just how fast the Lantern was moving or reaction.

They were stationary for most of them. We don't need quantified reaction speed to know they entail nanoseconds.

Actually you do need quantifiable feats in order to tell how fast they were reacting. If not, you're just guessing.

For example, the first example you give of Kyle:

I'm pretty sure that's the feat you're talking about. So, lets note that:

1. Kyle has to be told about the ship

2. Kyle gets blasted by the ship and was unable to react to it

3. All Kyle does is create a construct in front of the ship

So, basically, all he does is create a construct in front of the ship. That hardly shows any kind of reaction time unless you know things like:

  • when did Kyle see the ship?
  • how far away was the ship when he saw it?
  • how far in front of the ship did you create the construct?

Once you can give me numbers for all those things and show exactly where Kyle was in relation to the ship when he saw it... then you can show me that Kyle has nanosecond reaction time. Until then those scans show nothing.

#44 Posted by reaverlation (13925 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Then I can easily say Wally wins by taking their speed as it causes no harm and Wally can do it much faster than either Lantern can think

#45 Posted by WillPayton (9156 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

Yup, Alan is pure magical energy, but in-character he's also susceptible to his mental state. This means that he can be physically hurt or KO'ed unless he decides that he's immune to it. We have seen him get tagged and hurt by physical attacks in the past, and only when he's possessed by the Starheart does he completely overcome that limitation.

Actually every single instance of Alan being harmed physically in combat has been when he was "mentally tired/ fatigued" or drained after a long battle or something like that. At the start of battles he has for example taken glows from the herald Gog and fared just as well as E-22 Superman. When Mordru took him down with the exploding boxes (which wasn't even a weakness at the time) it was retconned to be because he was so tired after the events of the Kingdom arc etc.

The whole reason why Alan is pure magical energy is because of classic GA and SA tales where he would internalize his energy to enhance his durability. He did this frequently and it became almost a default position. For example because his arch Foe Grundy could absorb the energy of his constructs he would internalize his power to make himself more of a brick and tank Grundy's attacks. He has just as many feats tanking powerful attacks without constructs as he has of succumbing to them.

If Alan is indeed completely immune from physical harm, even when in character, then I'll change my vote to the team winning. But, I'm not convinced that Alan is invulnerable to physical damage in-character.

#46 Posted by houseshm (397 posts) - - Show Bio

One word: ION solos

#47 Edited by myerlanski (753 posts) - - Show Bio

Green Laterns...but Wally will make it tough....

#48 Posted by Fastnoc (270 posts) - - Show Bio

Lanterns, only because Flash with morals isn't enough to take on all those lanterns. As much as I love flash, he doesn't win, but he puts up a good fight. Unless of course there is PIS, and Kyle thinks it's okay to punch instead of use his ring like a normal green lantern, which in that case Wally wins.

#49 Edited by kidman560 (7566 posts) - - Show Bio

#50 Edited by beatboks1 (6988 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

If Alan is indeed completely immune from physical harm, even when in character, then I'll change my vote to the team winning. But, I'm not convinced that Alan is invulnerable to physical damage in-character.

I never said he was immune to physical harm. I said he can tank quite a bit in character, and only ever sustains extensive damage when he's weary, drained.

@beatboks1: Then I can easily say Wally wins by taking their speed as it causes no harm and Wally can do it much faster than either Lantern can think

Here's the thing, The Lanterns don't need to move to actually battle. He could make them complete statues and they can still fight back as to fight all they have to do is think. There is a pre COIE feat where Alan while disembodied defeated Krona. I doubt it's still canon but still that is one of many examples of what can be done with a lantern ring. There's also the fact that speed steal isn't so harmless all the time. I can recall one instance where Wally was reluctant to because it would have made Superman do amazing damage.