Flash vs Apocalypse

@Blacharrt1, Flash hasn't performed the IMP in the new 52...yet granted, however Barry is faster then Wally is overall and is more then capable. I never mentioned Barry either, I said Flash wins via the Speed Force since all speed users are connected to it. We just haven't seen it yet in the new 52...yet.

Barry is not, by any stretch of the imagination, faster than Wally.

@Dredeuced I disagree, Barry was the only one who could go toe to toe with Zoom unlike Wally.

Bart is faster then both of them or was at one point anyway. The new 52 they changed some things but we haven't seen Barry pushed yet either which you know sooner or later they will. He's definitely slower then pre52 though, Superman tagged him with his finger afterall.

Also, while I know it's a different DC Universe the YJ universe Wally was far slower then both Barry and Bart...

The young justice universe is clearly irrelevant. They wanted Wally to be slower for their reasons and it has nothing to do with the comics. In the comics, Bart doesn't even show up until after Barry dies and Wally is the full fledged Flash, they're entirely incomparable. Wally is blisteringly faster than Bart at their normal speeds (by both his and Bart's own admissions)

Wally has outraced the Black Flash WITHOUT having to run him into someone else. Wally has travelled millions upon billions of times the speed of light, he can think to the zeptosecond, can outrun the big bang, and have entire fights in picoseconds. Barry doesn't come within an iota of matching Wally's speed feats.

Also, when did Barry go toe to toe with a serious Zoom(did it happen during Final Crisis or something)? I remember him and Wally fighting both Professor Zoom and Zoom on the treadmill and him taking Thawne away so Wally could handle regular Zoom, but never beating him solo. Wally WAS the one who beat Zoom in the first arc he shows up in so you're also wrong on that count, he needed amps to do it. Bart is the only Flash I've ever seen really beatdown Zoom toe to toe, and even then Zoom was only there to help Iris try to save Bart and Bart was amped with all of Wally and Barry's speed force access, so it's similar to when Wally took Bart, Jesse, and Jay's speed.

You might be thinking of Professor Zoom, who Barry did go toe to toe with, but Wally has chumped and destroyed Thawne more thoroughly than Barry ever did.

@Dredueced, some of the stories actually were based from comic stories such as the Reach arch trying to take over Earth...and they followed Impulse becoming Kid Flash.

In one arch Bart is faster then both of them(forget the story but I just remember reading it before the new 52 started)

Flashpoint part 5 proves my point concerning Barry taking on Zoom(thawne), Wally if I recall correctly needed to borrow speed from the others meaning not under his own power so I give Barry more credit there taking on Thawne honestly. So Flashpoint is when, I have the comic...he did beat him solo, the only other guy there was Batman who he pretty much schooled and while distracted by fighting Barry got stabbed by Batman in the back...

Wally fought Hunter Zolomon. You're talking about Thawne. Wally > Barry >> Bart powers wise. Professor Zoom is NOTHING compared to Zoom. Thawne <<<<<<<< Hunter. Barry Defeated Thawne, NOT Hunter. Wally had to borrow speed to keep up with Hunter, not Thawne.

It's like this:

Hunter > Wally > Barry > Thawne > average Bart. (Theoretically supposed to be the fastest but he's not faster by a long shot that Wally..)

soooo everyone agrees apoc doesnt have a chance right?

Right

Flash wins.

You are confusing the two Zooms. Like I said, Wally has oneshotted Professor Zoom (the original Zoom who Barry killed) a few times and is generally his superior. Hunter Zolomon, just known as Zoom, is significantly more powerful than Barry or Professor Zoom. Flashpoint's reverse flash is professor zoom.

I know the arc you're talking about where Bart is more powerful. It is when Superboy Prime escaped the speed force dump into the future and the Flashes who took him there (Barry, Wally, Bart) needed to send someone back to warn them -- Bart took on the burden and to help him out, Wally and Barry gave him their speed. It was called Flash: The Fastest Man Alive and it lasted 13 issues before Bart died and Wally came back. That said, Bart was only potentially faster. Wally still had significantly better feats aside from Bart beating Zoom solo.

Just because Young Justice payed homage to some comic book stories don't mean anything. There was literally no point in comics where Wally was Kid Flash and Bart was Impulse at the same time. Wally significantly surpassed Barry's speed in the early 90s when he learned the Speed Formula and he was always faster than Bart when they were in the same stories.

Dude......wrong Zoom. Additionally, Barry needed Wally's help just to keep up with Thawne while they were racing through the timestream after him in Rebirth.

@blacharrt1: Pretty sure BFR is allowed.

He still has molecular disintegration.

Victory by BFR means you can return to the battlefield and your opponent can't. If Superman flies someone to the moon then comes back to Earth, he wins via BFR. Barry can enter and exit the speed force at will, so he can't beat himself by BFR.

Barry can phase his arm through apoc head making it explode. Apoc wouldnt even be able to process that the bell has rang before his head explodes. It takes about .4 of a second for your brain to process something. The bell would ring, and apocs brian wouldnt even process that it has rung and Flash would have time to phase his arm through apoc's head, go to china, have a snack, come back and shower before that .4 ends. Of course he wouldnt need that .4 because Apocs already dead.

Apoc could actually survive this.

Now complete atomization, maybe not, but he can come back from having his head explode.

@Supermanwithatan1, I never said Barry did such I said Barry defeated Zoom. What are you talking about? Thawne at that point could have done virtually anything he even states it...if you wish I can provide the scan for you?

Bart is actually faster then both barry and wally, they both state it in one arch via the speed force.

Not in flashpoint...I'm referring to Flashpoint, it's Thawne....Barry did it all by himself, the only person who helped him was Thomas Wayne who really got his butt handed to him for the most part before he stabbed Zoom/Thawne in the back and the timeline restored....

Wally was no where to be found when that happened...

I know what you speak of, I've read them all and own one of the archs in my collection....I'm not confusing them I just said Barry defeated Zoom on his own as well(obviously of the 3 of them Barry has struggled the most against Zoom in general)...

I'm well aware of the other plot with regular Zoom, either way Thawne was no joke either he even admits in Flashpoint he could have killed Barry but didn't care too before he got killed by Thomas Wayne. Yes, that's why I was referring to Bart being faster then the other two. Honestly though, they've all beaten Zoom on their own in different times, archs etc. Bart obviously though was the only one who really matched Zoom but borrowed the speed of Wally and Barry.

I never said YG was canon keep in mind, I merely said in that particular DCU (and god knows DC has a lot of them) Wally was the slowest and no where near Barry or Bart...he even died in the last episode because he couldn't keep up with the other two. I know, that's why I said it's a separate universe....Wally we all know was never a Kid Flash, it was for the show but Impulse however WAS Kid Flash later on....as they even hinted in Smallville based off the comics, so they paid that true homage at least. Obviously, different universes determine the Flash speeds...

Example-Pre 52 DCU, Wally>>>Barry and Bart, some stories Bart>>>>Wally and Barry. They all had access to the Speed Force and time treadmill...

YJU alternate DCU-Bart and Barry>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wally, obviously...

New 52-While we haven't seen much of every Flash yet outside of Barry mostly, he's clearly not that fast as he was and doesn't have the speed force(at least not yet)

Animated Universe-also it's own universe, we've seen Barry and Wally roughly the same. We've seen Bart slower and faster at times.

Smallville-Bart is the known main Flash and in the comics continuation sacrificed himself via the speed force saving Earth.

Injustice Universe who knows just yet...but we do know it's Barry Allen Flash so I doubt we'll see other Flash's pop up.

I am open to rethinking my position. Are you guys arguing that Apoc can take over Flash and win that way? Also if Flash BFRs Apoc it's not a stalemate, it's a win for Flash since he can enter and leave as he pleases.

Finally, if you are saying that a poster who does not agree with your position is the intellectual equivalent of someone who is developmentally disabled, you are way out of line. That is very immature and rude. You should try communicating and debating like an adult before you get banned.

Flash for the win

yes but, Flash powers doesn't work the way let's say mirror masters, quasars, or thor for that matter where he can simply transport someone to a different area without himself also having to leave the battle field. There end lies the problem because BFR is a lose, Flash has to BFR himself and Apocalypse which would end the match as a tie. And his showing with Grodd wouldn't work the same way with Apocalypse at all, so it's doubtful he could even get him into the speedforce, considering he can teleport and go intangible.

Self BFR is still removing yourself from the battlefield it's a lost, per the OP. BFR never states the time at which someone can be removed from the battle field before they are disqualified from the match, only that removal results in lose. Barry can't simply transport Apocalypse to the Speed Force he has to get him in there. No Superman doesn't win ,because he has to leave the battlefield in order to do it. This is the equivalent of trying to score a goal while out of bounds. If Magik teleports someone to Limbo, she BFR's them off the battle field therefore winning the match. If the battle states KO for a win, it doesn't matter for how long the person is KO be it seconds or a day, the person who KO'ed them wins. If Death is the means of winning if the person is immortal and they come back from death if they Die once, they still lose. Now that I've explained that to you, and given you many examples, you still haven't stated a way for Flash to actually Beat Apocalypse outside of trying to BFR him into the Speedforce, which you haven't even shown would work on him.

You can't atomize a being that is pure psionic energy. Apocalypse take's host bodies but can survive without a host. He has two ways of taking a host body through his machines (he generally weeds through several candidates to find the one that will last the longest) or by forcibly taking the host over. Flash has no defense for the second instance at all. And if you are referring to the instance where magneto used an EMP pulse on apocalypse's brain that wouldn't happen in 616 because Apocalypse as shown the twelve, the host body is encased in the chest of his armor. His head isn't even where you think it is. also HOM is non canon.

Psionic energy isnt made of atoms just like evvvverything else? Who knew.

Can you give me the issue where Barry defeats Hunter Zolomon? I can give you multiple issues where Wally beats Professor Zoom. There's a big difference in the feats you're trying to state.

Bart is actually faster then both barry and wally, they both state it in one arch via the speed force.

That's because Barry and Wally gave him their speed. He loses it at the end of the arc when he freaking dies. Yes, when Wally and Barry give all of their speed to Bart for 13 issues, Bart is faster than them. Never before and never again is he faster. I even gave you the arc (Flash: The Fastest Man Alive) where it's all explained.

Not in flashpoint...I'm referring to Flashpoint, it's Thawne....Barry did it all by himself, the only person who helped him was Thomas Wayne who really got his butt handed to him for the most part before he stabbed Zoom/Thawne in the back and the timeline restored....

Wally was no where to be found when that happened...

...Wally didn't have his powers in Flashpoint. What are you talking about? How is he supposed to show up and help when he was depowered?

I know what you speak of, I've read them all and own one of the archs in my collection....I'm not confusing them I just said Barry defeated Zoom on his own as well(obviously of the 3 of them Barry has struggled the most against Zoom in general)...

You clearly don't, because you're about to make a lot of mistakes about Flash lore that I have to correct.

I'm well aware of the other plot with regular Zoom, either way Thawne was no joke either he even admits in Flashpoint he could have killed Barry but didn't care too before he got killed by Thomas Wayne. Yes, that's why I was referring to Bart being faster then the other two. Honestly though, they've all beaten Zoom on their own in different times, archs etc. Bart obviously though was the only one who really matched Zoom but borrowed the speed of Wally and Barry.

I still don't remember Barry ever beating Zoom. Wally and Bart both needed the power of multiple other speedsters to handle Zoom. Zoom is vastly more powerful than any individual Flash.

I never said YG was canon keep in mind, I merely said in that particular DCU (and god knows DC has a lot of them) Wally was the slowest and no where near Barry or Bart...he even died in the last episode because he couldn't keep up with the other two. I know, that's why I said it's a separate universe....Wally we all know was never a Kid Flash, it was for the show but Impulse however WAS Kid Flash later on....as they even hinted in Smallville based off the comics, so they paid that true homage at least. Obviously, different universes determine the Flash speeds...

The main point is that Young Justice is irrelevant to what we're talking about. It has no bearing. You're just bringing it up to support your absurd notion that Wally is slower despite being in the process of admitting that it doesn't apply.

Also "Wally we all know was never a Kid Flash" WTF? Wally was Kid Flash for like 30 years. It's a huge part of his character development. Did you ever read Flash year 1? Or like, any Wally West story? They're flooded with him reminiscing about his time as Kid Flash at Barry's side.

Example-Pre 52 DCU, Wally>>>Barry and Bart, some stories Bart>>>>Wally and Barry. They all had access to the Speed Force and time treadmill...

Bart was more powerful during a 13 issue arc -- and in like, the first six issues, he was actively suppressing his powers. Cosmic Treadmill was destroyed in early 2003.

YJU alternate DCU-Bart and Barry>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wally, obviously...

Stop bringing this up. This isn't a Young Justice thread.

New 52-While we haven't seen much of every Flash yet outside of Barry mostly, he's clearly not that fast as he was and doesn't have the speed force(at least not yet)

Lol wtf is this? Here, I'm gonna post the Page 4 of Flash #2 for you, from the New-52, just so you don't make this abhorrent mistake again:

Barry has had the Speed Force for the entirety of his New-52 run. He even beats Gorilla Grodd by throwing him into the Speed Force and leaving him there.

Animated Universe-also it's own universe, we've seen Barry and Wally roughly the same. We've seen Bart slower and faster at times.

Smallville-Bart is the known main Flash and in the comics continuation sacrificed himself via the speed force saving Earth.

Injustice Universe who knows just yet...but we do know it's Barry Allen Flash so I doubt we'll see other Flash's pop up.

This is all irrelevant. We're discussing the comic versions of the characters. Wally doesn't even exist in half these universes -- he's only in the DCAU universe that has Justice League Unlimited and the other tied in shows, where he's the only Flash. And you know what? Even that's irrelevant! Barry being faster in anything that isn't the comic doesn't make him faster in the comic. Wally has feats that monumentally eclipse anything Barry has done in his entire career -- even in the hokey Silver Age years where heroes were doing the most outlandish stuff imaginable. It's not even close.

...It's not Self BFR if you can come back, though. That's the entire point. It's like a comic battle: did Barry lose to Grodd because he BFR'd him then went back to Central City? Of course not. You're twisting the basic premise of BFR to suit your interests in saying Apocalypse wins. BFR has never meant that you are instantly beat if you step out of the designated fighting area. This isn't a sumo wrestling competition -- it's about defeating your opponent in a practical manner. Barry can defeat Apocalypse and never have to deal with him again by tossing him in the Speed Force and coming back. That's why it's a victory condition -- Apocalypse can't come back, but Barry can.

I'm skeptical on Apocalypse's possession capabilities. I don't know enough about the character to refute it, can you show me him getting his body destroyed and instantly possessing his more powerful foe?

@dredeuced: I would follow you if I wasn't already following you. It's always amusing to see how uninformed people can be while trying to sound smart. I admire your patience.

It's a rhetorical statement, if i were calling someone mentally challenged i would say that very clearly and plainly. I didn't do that here. So no that's not what that statement meant, and isn't meant to be taken as an assault to your intelligence or devalues your opinion.

Only highlight the of frustration of yourself and others not proving your point only arbitrarily making baseless statements. If it was backed up by something, anything based on your comic knowledge or simply based on a logical opinion that's just fine, but when the math simply doesn't add up, and people are asking for answers frustration sets in.

So i hope i cleared that up, and if you are offended by it, i'm sorry.

Mofos comin' at me like they know my man Wally. Can't let that slide.

Why is this in discussion? Flash wins/

@dredeuced:Lol chill out. Everyone knows you are like the Flash Master lmao. I FREAKING lost a whole punch of my Flash comics because the account that I was using got hacked or deleted! I was pissed.

What are you guys even arguing about?

POW!

I'm not really mad. I guess I just add angry words to try to get the point across when I am repeating them.

It was brought up that Barry was faster than Wally. While, if this were true, it would greatly benefit Barry in this fight against Apocalypse, it is not true and I had to refute it.

Well, I didn't have to, but I sure enjoy doing it.

@dredeuced...

Ok, few things....for one. Bart I said is faster in some exceptions such as what you and I already mentioned when he borrowed Barry and Wally's speed in that other arch...to take on Zoom via the speed force

Yes, obviously there's different universes but this topic also has nothing to do with Zoom yet you brought him up so please, follow your own advice if you're going to rant on off topic banter...

Secondly, yes I know YJ is an alternate universe, I'm just saying...the show still had Wally being the slowest is all I'm saying. My point was that in other DCU's Wally isn't the fastest, that is all...no need to get your shorts in a bunch over it.

Flash point part 5, and again I never said "hunter zolomon" I said Zoom...referring to Thawne, which Barry and Thomas Wayne defeat him...I even took the liberty of posting the scan for you so you know what I'm referring to...

I don't know what you're going on concerning Wally in Flashpoint, I never mentioned him in Flashpoint I said Barry...I don't see why you're ranting on Kid Flash and Wally...we know this already, but Impulse became Kid Flash then Flash in the future, I'm saying THAT concept was paying homage to the comics...obviously.

Clearly I do, you're merely misunderstanding what I said. From you assuming I meant Wally in Flashpoint(even though I clearly stated Barry) and also concerning your assumption of when I said Barry dealt with Zoom(you said Hunter Zolomon") which I never said, you said that I said that. So I'm not sure what you're reading...

Barry and Thomas Wayne beat Zoom here...again in Flashpoint 5...yes, Zoom is powerful but he's not invulnerable and has been beaten by Flash's...

Ok, my fault for not being more specific...In New 52 JL, Flash has NOT shown the Speed Force or is as fast as he is pre-52, Superman tagging him with his finger? Nuff said...

Also, originally my post was agreeing with you and even said Flash would win here so I honestly don't know why you're arguing with me here...I'm sure everyone here reading cares as much about YJ as they do about Zoom.

In other words you made that part up about Apocalypse being able to match the speed of anyone he's facing. He isn't even as fast as Quicksilver is, he isn't even as fast as Speed Demon

Who cares if he can teleport? Nightcrawler can teleport, does that mean he can react to Flash?

There isn't anything Poccy can do here, he gets splattered all over the canvas.

Dont bother with him. He's ignoring that Barry said he's the only one with the key to exit the speed force.

No worries.

Woo boy, here we go again.

@vaeternus: Ok, few things....for one. Bart I said is faster in some exceptions such as what you and I already mentioned when he borrowed Barry and Wally's speed in that other arch...to take on Zoom via the speed force

Bart has never been called faster than Barry or Wally except for when he took their speed. He also did not take their speed to take on Zoom -- he did it to go back in time to warn people that Superboy Prime was coming back. Flash: The Fastest Man Alive #6.

Yes, obviously there's different universes but this topic also has nothing to do with Zoom yet you brought him up so please, follow your own advice if you're going to rant on off topic banter...

Aha this is absolutely amazing. Reread the thread, you brought up Zoom in a response to me. 3rd post on the 3rd page -- you're the very first person to mention Zoom. Don't try to pull this crap on me.

Secondly, yes I know YJ is an alternate universe, I'm just saying...the show still had Wally being the slowest is all I'm saying. My point was that in other DCU's Wally isn't the fastest, that is all...no need to get your shorts in a bunch over it.

The problem is you keep bringing it up when it has no relevance. Other DC Universes aren't relevant. I'm not getting my shorts in a bunch, I just don't understand why you keep bringing it up. It's like talking about how Football teams don't score enough points compared to the NBA.

Flash point part 5, and again I never said "hunter zolomon" I said Zoom...referring to Thawne, which Barry and Thomas Wayne defeat him...I even took the liberty of posting the scan for you so you know what I'm referring to...

Here's the thing I don't think you're getting. Thawne is not "Zoom." Thawne is Professor Zoom. This goes all the way back to 1993 in Blitzkrieg(Flash Vol 2 #79). There's a reason the distinction is there. Attributing Barry beating Professor Zoom and Wally having trouble with Zoom are completely different because Zoom is MASSIVELY more powerful than Professor Zoom. Wally freaking OHKO's Professor Zoom:

I don't know what you're going on concerning Wally in Flashpoint, I never mentioned him in Flashpoint I said Barry...I don't see why you're ranting on Kid Flash and Wally...we know this already, but Impulse became Kid Flash then Flash in the future, I'm saying THAT concept was paying homage to the comics...obviously.

Once again, you are lying about your own posts. You are the one who brought up Wally and Flashpoint when you said this:

Not in flashpoint...I'm referring to Flashpoint, it's Thawne....Barry did it all by himself, the only person who helped him was Thomas Wayne who really got his butt handed to him for the most part before he stabbed Zoom/Thawne in the back and the timeline restored....

Wally was no where to be found when that happened...

You literally indicted Wally for not showing up during Flashpoint to help despite the fact that he had no powers because it was an alternate timeline. Could you atleast remember what you yourself post?

Clearly I do, you're merely misunderstanding what I said. From you assuming I meant Wally in Flashpoint(even though I clearly stated Barry) and also concerning your assumption of when I said Barry dealt with Zoom(you said Hunter Zolomon") which I never said, you said that I said that. So I'm not sure what you're reading...

No, dude, I know quite clearly what you said. This is what you said:

Flashpoint part 5 proves my point concerning Barry taking on Zoom(thawne), Wally if I recall correctly needed to borrow speed from the others meaning not under his own power so I give Barry more credit there taking on Thawne honestly

You were the one who said Wally needed help to beat Professor Zoom. You know why you said this? Because Wally needed to borrow speed from others to defeat Hunter Zolomon, who wears a similar outfit. Wally has never, and I repeat, never needed help against Professor Zoom after Blitzkrieg (which happened in 1993), which was literally the first arc Wally ever faced Professor Zoom in since becoming The Flash.

YOU confused Zolomon for Thawne. That's the problem. You think Wally needed help to beat Thawne and Barry didn't, which is why you think Barry is faster/more powerful than Wally. You attributed a battle Wally had with Zolomon to one with Thawne, then used ABC logic to state that Barry was better because he had beaten Thawne.

Ok, my fault for not being more specific...In New 52 JL, Flash has NOT shown the Speed Force or is as fast as he is pre-52, Superman tagging him with his finger? Nuff said...

I guess? I mean, the fact that he uses the Speed Force to go fast at all means he's using the Speed Force in the Justice League series. The finger flick thing took place 5 years before the main arc when none of the characters were as good at using their powers, and hell, it took Superman a dozen tries to hit Barry while Barry wasn't even doing his best to keep away -- he was trying to distract him so Hal could, you know, not be getting his butt whooped by Superman.

Also, originally my post was agreeing with you and even said Flash would win here so I honestly don't know why you're arguing with me here...I'm sure everyone here reading cares as much about YJ as they do about Zoom.

It doesn't matter if you agree with me. I am correcting your false assumptions and bad information with regards to the Flash series. I'm pointing out your statement that Wally needed to borrow speed to beat Thawne was incorrect -- he only needed to borrow speed against Hunter Zolomon. I'm pointing out your statement that Barry could beat Thawne without help was A: incorrect (Barry needed help from Wally multiple times to beat Thawne, both in Silver Age and in Rebirth) and B: Not indicative of anything in regards to Wally, who has beaten Thawne on several occasions with no help at all.

It doesn't matter if people care about Young Justice more or not. It just doesn't apply to the conversation at hand: Which was your statement that you believed Barry was faster or more powerful than Wally, which basically 90% of this forum and I as a pretty knowledgeable Flash fan can tell you is completely false. That's the entire point of this long diatribe (besides correcting your mistakes).

I think pretty much everyone has gotten the point that you don't even remember your own posts. You had to have mistaken Zolomon for Thawne because you said:

This post. You thought Wally needed help to beat Thawne, when he didn't. You brought up Zoom, I didn't. You made a bunch of other very bad, very erroneous claims (Like Wally never being Kid Flash, or Barry not having the SpeedForce in New-52). Sorry if you're confused by all of this.

I never made any false assumptions, unless you consider me not being specific enough for you which perhaps I could have done better if I had known you'd go nuts over it....you're the one assuming I meant something that I never originally said...for whatever reason doesn't concern me...you love Flash, we get it it's still no reason for you to go out of your way to argue with me for no reason when I told you I agreed with you initally on the topic's relevant, so yes it does matter.

You did make a false assumption, though. You assumed that Wally needed to borrow speed to defeat the same Reverse Flash that Barry had beaten before. I was correcting that. I said you mixed up Wally's fight with Zolomon for being the same Reverse Flash as Eobard Thawne -- you denied it and we got into this long winded discussion. You also made the false assumption that Barry is faster than Wally, which is incredibly false.

So you admit that Flash hasn't done anything nearly impressive and isn't as fast as he WAS pre-52 then? I give you props for following Flash as you obviously do, but I'm a huge DC fan myself and JL reader and Flash hasn't done anything nearly as impressive as he did pre-new 52 and you can't deny this

The only thing that Barry has done that is more impressive than his Silver Age/Pre-52 self is selectively pull whatever he wishes into the Speed Force. That's quite the powerful ability that, depending on the opponent, is far more powerful than anything Pre-52 Barry could do. Otherwise, Pre-52 Barry was much faster (clearly FTL, while New-52 Barry is only speculatively FTL) and had obscenely better reaction time (Attosecond, compared to New-52's, at best, femtosecond). He also seems to tire more quickly in New-52.

At any rate, I have little interest in "arguing" with you over nothing. You've made your point and follow Flash more then anyone else on the site. Congrats, like I said Flash should win here.

I don't know if I follow it more than anyone else, I just have a pretty good memory and Flash is the stuff I read as a kid -- I actually probably don't know nearly as much about Pre Crisis Barry Allen as many on this site, because I wasn't alive for Pre-Crisis. I keep up with a whole lot of other New-52 titles, too, they're just not relevant to this discussion.

I mean, this is a comic forum afterall.

edit: ah yes, the delete post maneuver. Foiled again.

@dredeuced

Everyone? That's rather subjective. I remember full well what I said again I just should have been more specific which I admitted previously, not that I really care what anyone thinks. It's the "internet" afterall, I don't find myself taking "internet battles" too seriously most of all on these forums;)

I never mistook Zolomon for Thawne, sounds like you assumed I did... I however, had referred to Zoom generally speaking since both carry the name...that wasn't a false assumption, I was referring to Barry's arch via Flashpoint, again I was referring to a different story entirely. Yes, obviously Wally has held his own against Zoom and I get that(Bart was the one who borrowed speed of Wally and Barry) and not Wally so my mistake there, my point was so has Barry and Bart at different times... in a different story/point in time. So that you don't assume I'm assuming the same story or anything.

Just so we're both clear here, I never said Wally was Kid Flash...you misunderstood something I said(if that's what you thought I said). I know for a fact I never said such, I said Impulse became Kid Flash...how you got me saying "wally is kid flash" out of that I don't know, the only universe as far as I know that has wally as kid flash was YJ cartoon...

So in other words you agree then that Flash in general was more impressive and faster Pre-52 then currently in the New 52? That's all I was saying. He's still fast obviously. To be honest, I haven't been reading Flash in his own series in the new 52. I try to follow what I can since DC puts out so many books these days. Did they even mention or show Bart or Wally yet?

Ok, fair enough. I didn't mean to annoy you or anything. I can see you're a big Flash follower. Is he your favorite Justice Leaguer?

I've gotten a lot of posts of approval. "Everyone" I suppose is hyperbole. There's lots of people on this forum who disagree with me for the sake of it.

I never mistook Zolomon for Thawne, sounds like you assumed I did... I however, had referred to Zoom generally speaking since both carry the name...that wasn't a false assumption, I was referring to Barry's arch via Flashpoint, again I was referring to a different story entirely. Yes, obviously Wally has held his own against Zoom and I get that(Bart was the one who borrowed speed of Wally and Barry) and not Wally so my mistake there, my point was so has Barry and Bart at different times... in a different story/point in time. So that you don't assume I'm assuming the same story or anything.

I think you're mistaking me here. You said Wally needed to borrow speed from others to beat Zoom -- which is true. You then said that Barry defeated Zoom, and that's why Barry is faster.

With this, you implied that the Zoom Wally needed to borrow Jesse, Jay, and Bart's speed to beat was the same one Barry had beaten before. Which would mean Zolomon and Thawne are the same Zoom, but that's not true. From now on you should really refer to Thawne as Professor Zoom. If you did this simple thing there could never be a mistake like this one where you clearly stated that you believed Wally needed help to beat Thawne.

Just so we're both clear here, I never said Wally was Kid Flash...you misunderstood something I said(if that's what you thought I said). I know for a fact I never said such, I said Impulse became Kid Flash...how you got me saying "wally is kid flash" out of that I don't know, the only universe as far as I know that has wally as kid flash was YJ cartoon...

Yes, that's the problem: You said Wally was never Kid Flash. Wally was Kid Flash for years -- even longer than he was The Flash. I was correcting you because you said "Wally has never been kid flash"

So in other words you agree then that Flash in general was more impressive and faster Pre-52 then currently in the New 52? That's all I was saying. He's still fast obviously. To be honest, I haven't been reading Flash in his own series in the new 52. I try to follow what I can since DC puts out so many books these days. Did they even mention or show Bart or Wally yet?

Faster, yes. More impressive...? Maybe, but the New-52 Speed Force dump is much, much more powerful than the Pre-52 one.

Bart has been in the New-52 Teen Titans -- he and Barry have not met in New-52 yet, which is really weird.

Wally does not exist in New-52. The co-writer for Flash, Manapul, begged to Didio to let him put Wally into the story, but Didio outright stated that Wally was not allowed to come back no matter what. They also have separated Barry and Iris West, which is tragic, but you gotta deal with whatever Didio says, I suppose.

edit: Honestly, the worst thing about New-52 to me is that they butchered the Flash family. Jay's only on Earth-2, no Max, No Jesse, No Johnny, No Max, No Wally, no Linda, Iris' character is vastly different and way worse, No Linda, and Bart's only there because they need a Kid Flash on the Teen Titans -- he's literally had no interaction with Barry yet. And you know why that really irks me? Because both Superman and f_cking Batman have a gigantic family and each and every stupid member of their dumb group gets their own comic or 20, and Flash family literally just doesn't exist because Didio only likes Barry.

(yes i'm bitter)

@dredeuced

True, I hear ya same here lol. I have people who agree with me daily, and those who will disagree. There are a few certain users on here who disagree with me much like you just said yourself for the sake of it or to troll or start trouble due to past battle discussions. Pretty much how you're with Flash, I am with the MK universe so the MK haters aren't too fond of me among a few other users I know actually familiar with gaming characters.

Oh, ok so it seems we merely misunderstood one another. I agree and you're right that Wally borrowed the speed of the others to defeat Zolomon(Zoom), as did Bart borrowing speed of the other two as well in his fight against Zoom. I never implied or meant however that Barry only beat Zoom/Pro Zoom ;) and the other Zoom zolomon. I can see how you'd think that since like you said I just referred to him as "Zoom". I admit that, like I said if I had been more specific then there wouldn't have been all this confusion but I assure you I was referring to two entirely different Zoom's in Zolomon and Professor Zoom(Thawne). Personally, while one is known as Zoom and the other Professor Zoom I still think DC was lazy there, I mean they could have called one "Zoom" and the other "Speed" or something...know what I mean just to help newer or casual fans distinguish the different characters easier(since they do look alike afterall)

Ok, well in the comics if that's true which I'm sure it is if you're saying it is with Wally being kid flash I didn't follow Wally in his younger days that much, so YJ did that well then. I do know however Impulse was that before becoming Kid Flash later on, then Flash eventually though. I'm more familiar with Bart & Barry then Wally I admit.

I suppose Faster is cut and dry and obvious, impressive well in terms of "feats" I was referring to but to be fair it's still very early and I'm sure we'll see Flash do crazier stuff in due time via the New-52.

Ahh, ok that makes sense I don't read TT but makes sense. Yeah, hmm I'm sure at some point Barry will meet with Bart. Wally not existing at all in the New 52, I'm personally fine with that(being a fan of Barry and Bart more lol) not that I hate wally but I do think sometimes they go overboard with Flash's and GL's IMO. I get why they do it's just sometimes too many versions of the same character lol. Gets a little confusing at times. I'm sure the Wally fans hate Didio however lol.

Barry is immune to telepathy as seen in Blackest night #7. Apocalypse can be physically hurt. Barry isn't plagued by PIS/WIS here so he'll go all out. Nurr wouldn't touch him. Literally. You seem really confused. Barry doesn't have to be Wally to pwn Apocalypse. Barry can move at lightspeed, which requires INFINITE MASS. When he hits someone at the speed of light, he does so with INFINITE MASS, hence INFINITE MASS PUNCH. Apocalypse couldn't escape the speed force. He has no way of winning, whereas Barry could hit him over and over without being touched until he's ko'd. Don't say special or something, it's very disrespectful and unacceptable on the vine.

QFT

OMG.... I'm soo sorry!! no I was told QFT means "Quit F***ing Talking" I'M SORRY

hahahah damn who told you QFT means that?? You got trolled son!! QFTruth!!

QFT...lol

Seriously, some of you guys are trying to win in a technicality saying it's self BFR. When a policeman puts someone in jail I suppose they're arrested too.