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#51 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades: I am fully aware of what his power are, but is he anywhere near a bloodlusted barry? The answer is no, not even close.

but apoc is always bloodlusted he is evil

#52 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

The Flash

#53 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades: Evil doesn't mean bloodlusted, AT ALL. It simply means that his morals aren't there. It doesn't really matter anyways. A bloodlusted Barry would put him down within a few seconds, no matter what state of morals apoc is in.

#54 Posted by daLoneWanderah (2 posts) - - Show Bio

there is no version of flash that could beat apocalyse, apocalypse takes pretty much the whole earth to beat, he's like the darkseid of marvel, so flash is like an insect to him

#55 Edited by theDCkid (891 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash.

#56 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@dalonewanderah said:

there is no version of flash that could beat apocalyse, apocalypse takes pretty much the whole earth to beat, he's like the darkseid of marvel, so flash is like an insect to him

Thanos is the Darkseid of Marvel. Apocalypse is a chump compared to those two, and Wally would paste Apocalypse like a bug. He's lucky it's only Barry. Well not really, considering Barry can still rend him apart at the molecular level, but atleast he won't be turned into a powerless statue stuck, unable to do anything, for a hundred years as punishment like Wally can do. Small favors.

#57 Edited by Bane_of_sith (2796 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm leaning towards flash but a lot of people are short changing apocalypse here,,,I still think this is really close

#58 Edited by age_of_ultron_Prime2000 (1217 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash

#59 Posted by JackKnight (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash.

#60 Edited by robertloucksjr (1833 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys are really underestimating Apocalypse. All he has to do is fly in the air and then kill Flash from relative safety. He is tough, versatile, and highly skilled.

Apocalypse restrains the Hulk with one arm. - http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers11.png

Apocalypse holds She-Hulk apparently helpless in a choke. He also shows that he can detach his head from his body and fly it around, so decapitation shouldn’t be a problem. - http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apochulk4.png

Durability - Apocalypse takes X-Factor, the Inhumans, (including Black Bolt whisper!), Askani/Rachael Summers, and Charlotte Jones w/big tech gun- hitting him with everything they had to no effect, he waded through it.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers4.png

Recovering quickly after being turned into ooze - http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocregernate.png

Agility - Outmaneuvers super agile Beast - http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocalypse02.jpg

Quickness - Catches Quicksilver - http://www.comicvine.com/apocalypse/29-7612/all-images/108-210116/apocvsxmen6/105-784923/

Morphing/Quickness - Fighting Prime Eternal Icarus opens hole in body to let blast pass through - http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocmorph3.png

Telepathy - Reads mind of offspring that woke him from long sleep - http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers10.png

Mind blasts Xavier - http://static.mojefotke.si/1ddaf62cdef62ccb2b33fc87e80c52a32887b5f7.JPG

Energy Blasts - http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/apocenergy2.png

Teleporting himself in battle

http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/X-Factor025Page26.jpg

http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/X-Factor025Page32.jpg

Teleporting others against their will

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll198/evilash1990/xff-05-008.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powe26.png

Morphing

http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/ANNxfactor_v1_003_16_rougher.jpg

http://i799.photobucket.com/albums/yy275/llagrok/Random%20comic%20feats/ANNxfactor_v1_003_22_rougher.jpg

Force Fields

Puts powerful TK mutant Exodus, who stomped Eternal Sersei, into force field - http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers18.png

Senses

Able to see past a Watcher's cloaking field. Uatu, as usual, does not respond - http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powe27.png

Senses invisible High Evolutionary, grabs him, and teleports them both - http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powe26.png

#61 Posted by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades: Evil doesn't mean bloodlusted, AT ALL. It simply means that his morals aren't there. It doesn't really matter anyways. A bloodlusted Barry would put him down within a few seconds, no matter what state of morals apoc is in.

wait did you just read what you just posted on here if not let me help you said that evil is not bloodlusted it means morals are off but then you say flash is bloodlusted with morals off.so if i go by what you just said flash is morals off not bloodlust

#62 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara said:

@jackofspades: Evil doesn't mean bloodlusted, AT ALL. It simply means that his morals aren't there. It doesn't really matter anyways. A bloodlusted Barry would put him down within a few seconds, no matter what state of morals apoc is in.

wait did you just read what you just posted on here if not let me help you said that evil is not bloodlusted it means morals are off but then you say flash is bloodlusted with morals off.so if i go by what you just said flash is morals off not bloodlust

Why are you being disrespectful? don't. You're making yourself look stupid. There is a big difference between being bloodlusted and having morals off.

Morals off, means that you aren't holding back. It is your morals that stops people like Superman from ending everyones life in one punch, he holds back ALOT. When you have no morals, you have no need to hold back.

Bloodlust, would be like, Doc Ock killing Aunt May. Peter would be furious. He obviously wont hold back. But he is angry, he is going to use all his speed and strength to its cull capacity to put this guy down. He won't mess around, he will do everything in his power to kill him.

Evil doesn't mean bloodlusted. Apoc might be bloodlusted if he thought that Barry killed his closest friend.

#63 Edited by Batman242 (4862 posts) - - Show Bio

Barry wins.

#64 Edited by jackofspades (1860 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades said:

@calebhara said:

@jackofspades: Evil doesn't mean bloodlusted, AT ALL. It simply means that his morals aren't there. It doesn't really matter anyways. A bloodlusted Barry would put him down within a few seconds, no matter what state of morals apoc is in.

wait did you just read what you just posted on here if not let me help you said that evil is not bloodlusted it means morals are off but then you say flash is bloodlusted with morals off.so if i go by what you just said flash is morals off not bloodlust

Why are you being disrespectful? don't. You're making yourself look stupid. There is a big difference between being bloodlusted and having morals off.

Morals off, means that you aren't holding back. It is your morals that stops people like Superman from ending everyones life in one punch, he holds back ALOT. When you have no morals, you have no need to hold back.

Bloodlust, would be like, Doc Ock killing Aunt May. Peter would be furious. He obviously wont hold back. But he is angry, he is going to use all his speed and strength to its cull capacity to put this guy down. He won't mess around, he will do everything in his power to kill him.

Evil doesn't mean bloodlusted. Apoc might be bloodlusted if he thought that Barry killed his closest friend.

all you are doing is looking like a fanboy on here and you don't know what you are talking,first get it right YOU are the one that said apoc morals off doesn't make him bloodlust that you say a morals off flash would be bloodlust which one is it because you keep saying that flash is bloodlust but i put no morals on

#65 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4409 posts) - - Show Bio

Flashes punches Apocalypse, makes him bleed, is infected by Apocalypse blood and becomes the new Apocalypse, thus Apoc wins. :)

#66 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

Apoc can not attack what he cant see. Flash wins. BFR is the easiest way for that to happen. OR maybe speed steal.

#67 Posted by InnerSuperman (858 posts) - - Show Bio

flash

#68 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@innersuperman: Exactly. Unless Apoc has been shown to have picosecond reaction time, he's not winning

#69 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4409 posts) - - Show Bio

He can win by by bleeding from getting hit so many times, his blood can infect Flash and either kill him or turn into a new Apoc.

#70 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio
#71 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

"Random encounter but both know who they are up against".

That means flash would know not to let the blood on him while its moving at SUPER SLOW motion compated to how fast he is thinking and moving. Besides all of that, he is almost completely covered from head to toe.

#72 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4409 posts) - - Show Bio

@inconvenient_truth said:

"Random encounter but both know who they are up against".

That means flash would know not to let the blood on him while its moving at SUPER SLOW motion compated to how fast he is thinking and moving. Besides all of that, he is almost completely covered from head to toe.

Knowing who you are up against just means you have basic knowledge, which means he will not know about the blood thing because it's not common knowledge. His blood is techno-organic the way I remember techno-organic things can work through clothes.

#73 Edited by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

The Flash can't affect Apocalypse on a molecular level. Apocalypse has complete control over his molecules.

@lordofallhumans brings up a good point, Mirror Master and Murmur once used a similar strategy to slow down the Flash and it worked because the Flash wasn't expecting it. I see no reason why it wouldn't work here.

#74 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: When Flash punches Apoc hes going to do it with 100000 punches in less than a second. that blood will never get to fall on him at the speed gravity will make it fall in. Plus, Flash could just BFR him

#75 Edited by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

BFR him to where? He is a teleporter.

#76 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: speed force. only flash can get out of the speed force. theres a scan floating around showing that flash says only he has the key to get out.

#77 Posted by xeon1cs (1481 posts) - - Show Bio

BFR him to where? He is a teleporter.

Being a teleporter doesn't magically grant you the ability of dimensional travel.

Granted my knowledge of Apocalypse isn't exactly top-tier, but has he ever teleported out of a dimension that he was "trapped" in?

#78 Edited by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

That is patently false as Superboy Prime got out.

#79 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill: its NOT false as SBP is pre 52, and the scan im referencing is new 52

#80 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@jackofspades: Do i really? sound like a fanboy? really? because if you think that a morals off apocalypse is fast enough to keep up with a morals off Barry Allen, you, truly have no idea what you are talking about.

Apoc could NEVER hit someone with Femtosecond reaction time.

#81 Edited by xeon1cs (1481 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill said:

That is patently false as Superboy Prime got out.

Superboy-Prime wasn't left in the Speed Force, was he? He was taken through it to another universe.

And should we really be comparing Superboy-Prime to Apocalypse in the first place? The character literally punched reality.

#82 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless specified by DC, new 52 Speed Force is still the same as Pre-52 Speed Force. Given that Max Mercury himself said that the Speed Force exists in "every dimension, every universe, and every era. It touches every part of reality." There is no reason to believe that this Speed Force is any different.

Superboy Prime was left in the Speed Force not in another universe.

Apocalypse is a smarter guy than Superboy Prime who was able to figure out Celestial Tech before civilization was really a thing. Superboy Prime punched through reality with the help of Alexander Luthor.

#83 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

look theres really no argument here. Flash wins. Apoc doesnt really even have a chance. He wont even see flash. he cant. it'll be over before apoc comprehends that the bell has even rung.

#84 Posted by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless specified by DC, new 52 Speed Force is still the same as Pre-52 Speed Force. Given that Max Mercury himself said that the Speed Force exists in "every dimension, every universe, and every era. It touches every part of reality." There is no reason to believe that this Speed Force is any different.

Superboy Prime was left in the Speed Force not in another universe.

Apocalypse is a smarter guy than Superboy Prime who was able to figure out Celestial Tech before civilization was really a thing. Superboy Prime punched through reality with the help of Alexander Luthor.

It wasn't specified but it is demonstrably different. For one, it doesn't kill Barry the second he enters it like Pre-52 Speed Force. For two, it's actually a traversible dimension instead of an infinite energy well that connects to all dimensions in all universes. For three, in Pre-52 they retconned it to being something Barry created, while in New-52 this is not the case.

Superboy Prime was NOT left in the Speed Force, he was left in an alternate universe with Barry, Wally, and Bart watching over him as he was contained in a room that doused him in Red Sun radiation. Did you even READ the Full Throttle Bart Allen arc where he outright explains that SBP was being held in another universe and, when he escaped to go back to wreak havoc, Barry and Wally gave Bart their share of the speed force and sent him back to warn everyone?

#85 Edited by NeonGameWave (8975 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash should win.

#86 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

The Speed Force has always been exactly what you indicated. Barry's ability to use it has always been the issue. What you see as a retcon, I see as gaining a better understanding just like Max Mercury did. Barry is a bit of an idiot just like Wally and Bart. Barry didn't create the Speed Force, it created itself through Barry. Barry was the Lightning Bolt that made it possible for himself to access the Speed Force. Barry had to be able to run to access the Speed Force but he wasn't able to do that until the Lightning Bolt hit him and the Lightning Bolt that hit him was Barry Allen and he was only able to go back in time and become the Lightning Bolt because he could run. It creates a stable time loop.

Maybe you didn't read COIE but the resolution of that destroyed all other universes and it was not until Alex activated his Machine did they come back. Alex didn't activate his Machine until after Superboy Prime had been captured. There literally was no other place that the Flash's could take him that was not the Speed Force. The Universe that they took him to was either created by the Speed Force and thus is the Speed Force or is the Speed Force. Either way, there was no way that they took him to a Universe that was not the Speed Force. Superboy Prime figured this out and escaped. Barry and Wally can't give part of the Speed Force because the Speed Force is infinite. What they did is they gave him the confidence to do the job because they couldn't return because if they did then they wouldn't be able to pull off their Final Crisis performance and the universe would die. The Speed Force did not let them go because it knew it would need them later on. The Speed Force knows everything afterall.

#87 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash has shown most recently that only HE has the key to get out of the speed force. Apoc loses with or without BFR'ing to the speedforce

#88 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

The Flash has only shown that he can keep Gorilla Grodd locked up. Apocalypse is easily Gorilla Grodd's superior so he might be able to pull off some fun. Also, Apocalypse's Molecular Control could give him an advantage that Grodd did not have.

#89 Edited by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash has shown most recently that only HE has the key to get out of the speed force. Apoc loses with or without BFR'ing to the speedforce

You are comparing Grodd to Apocalypse, they are not on the same level nor do they have the same powerset. By this comment alone I'm inclined to create an Apocalypse vs. Grodd thread even though i know it would be flagged from spite against Grodd. Apocalypse out classes Grodd in Strength, Intelligence, Telepathy, and Telekinesis alone... So why are you trying to state that somehow the outcome would be the same? Telepathically Apocalypse is completely undetectable by psionics, and machinery, he has went up against X-man, Cable, Phoenix Jean Grey, Charles X and if it wasn't for Scott's psychic link to him Apocalypse would have beaten them in the Twelve. But it takes top at least two Top tier telepaths like young cable & jean to even compete. And he has Tanked far more than current new 52 flash has ever dished out. He has not counter for Apocalypse going intangible or even turning in molecules to say Adamantium or Vibranium. Flash would simply burn himself out and Apocalypse would stomp him or transmute him or most likely make him his new horseman.

#90 Edited by Dredeuced (5833 posts) - - Show Bio

@diredrill said:

The Speed Force has always been exactly what you indicated. Barry's ability to use it has always been the issue. What you see as a retcon, I see as gaining a better understanding just like Max Mercury did. Barry is a bit of an idiot just like Wally and Bart. Barry didn't create the Speed Force, it created itself through Barry. Barry was the Lightning Bolt that made it possible for himself to access the Speed Force. Barry had to be able to run to access the Speed Force but he wasn't able to do that until the Lightning Bolt hit him and the Lightning Bolt that hit him was Barry Allen and he was only able to go back in time and become the Lightning Bolt because he could run. It creates a stable time loop.

Except the fact that this isn't canon to New-52 Barry anymore. Barry, as has been painfully clear, is merely a chosen avatar of the speed force to outlet its excess energy so it doesn't get unstable. You would know this is you read New-52 Flash, and it's one of the many reasons why New-52 Speed Force is completely different. Here's the main scan:

Elias points out how he's the pressure release valve in another scan I can't be arsed to dig up and post.

Maybe you didn't read COIE but the resolution of that destroyed all other universes and it was not until Alex activated his Machine did they come back. Alex didn't activate his Machine until after Superboy Prime had been captured. There literally was no other place that the Flash's could take him that was not the Speed Force. The Universe that they took him to was either created by the Speed Force and thus is the Speed Force or is the Speed Force. Either way, there was no way that they took him to a Universe that was not the Speed Force. Superboy Prime figured this out and escaped. Barry and Wally can't give part of the Speed Force because the Speed Force is infinite. What they did is they gave him the confidence to do the job because they couldn't return because if they did then they wouldn't be able to pull off their Final Crisis performance and the universe would die. The Speed Force did not let them go because it knew it would need them later on. The Speed Force knows everything afterall.

The speed force isn't a universe in pre-52. It can't be where they held him because standing in the Speed Force kills the Flashes unless they escape quickly enough. Superboy Prime was literally being held in a freaking room on an alternate future Earth where Barry Allen was despite being dead(kind of like how Professor Zoom keeps showing up despite being dead), there were multiple Earths in the continuity at that point, I can even show you Wally running away while carrying his wife and kids when Inertia uses the speed force eating Machine on Bart that causes the speed force disruption to stretch out to the universe Wally is in and take them all back. Wally even gets help from the Legion of Super Heroes (you know, the alternate future justice league rip off that's a long running DC staple). I suppose this was my mistake as I did say alternate universe instead of future -- the Speed Force is more prone to time travel, anyhow, so that makes more sense, though I still don't know why you thought he was being held in the Speed Force. That makes absolutely no sense with the pre-52 Speed Force at all.

And yes, they DID give him their speed. Flashes only have so much access to the Speed Force, Wally's being the greatest -- this was before the "Barry created the Speed Force" retcon, mind you, which would muck up this power lending thing. Just like how Wally permanently took Jesse Quick's speed when he fought Zoom, or how he did the same to Lady Flash. Bart, during his run as the Flash, had more power than he ever had before and could barely control it, it had nothing to do with confidence.

Wally comes back anyhow before Final Crisis, right after Bart dies (during his 06-07 run. Final Crisis started in mid 08), he didn't want to go back specifically because they thought running through the speed force again would kill them(wally can only get out of the Speed Force by running back to Linda, which would not work since Linda was on the alternate future Earth with him). Bart walked up to Barry and Wally and said for them to give him their speed and for him to take the risk of warning everyone about SBP's return so Wally wouldn't have to leave his kids and Linda behind and Barry wouldn't have to mess up his thing (I forget the exact wording). This was all dutifully explained in Flash: The Fastest Man Alive Vol 1 #6. I don't have any scans on hand of it, but if someone does or someone can get them it's there if my cred as a Flash expert isn't enough.

edit: also you could atleast tag me so I know you're responding to me. Just click reply or something. I gotta keep my Flash rep going.

#91 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1: no, thats not what i said at all. What i DID say was that HE said only HE has the key to get out of the speed force. You see now how i DIDNT make a comparison?

#92 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

Apoc has NO chance. He doesnt have the reaction speed necessary to even know whats going on. The bell rings, and bam IM punch has Apoc KO'd or dead before he could react to the bell ringing. Its quite simple.

#93 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5297 posts) - - Show Bio

When has Barry ever used an IMP? He isn't Wally lets not overate him.

#94 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

@lone_wolf_and_cub: oh yea, sorry, forgot about that. but what chance does apoc have if he cant see or react to flash. rhetorical. the answer is none.

#95 Posted by Vaeternus (9410 posts) - - Show Bio

@dalonewanderah said:

there is no version of flash that could beat apocalyse, apocalypse takes pretty much the whole earth to beat, he's like the darkseid of marvel, so flash is like an insect to him

Thanos is the Darkseid of Marvel. Apocalypse is a chump compared to those two, and Wally would paste Apocalypse like a bug. He's lucky it's only Barry. Well not really, considering Barry can still rend him apart at the molecular level, but atleast he won't be turned into a powerless statue stuck, unable to do anything, for a hundred years as punishment like Wally can do. Small favors.

lol the part where you said Apocalypse is a chump compared to the other two haha. That's funny.

I think Flash wins here via the Speed Force not to mention IMP

#96 Posted by Walzo (4356 posts) - - Show Bio

@robertloucksjr:

I feel as though anything that matters in that post the Flash would be able to do and a lot better....

Flash via speedblitz

#97 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

Flash.

#98 Edited by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio
#99 Posted by Supermanwithatan01 (4029 posts) - - Show Bio

Well that's the best argument made for apocalypse in this thread so far. Won't stop a morals off Barry, not plagued by holding back, from absolutely manhandling him...

#100 Posted by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@blacharrt1: no, thats not what i said at all. What i DID say was that HE said only HE has the key to get out of the speed force. You see now how i DIDNT make a comparison?

Actually you were, indirectly. Because the situation was Grodd and Flash, which would be completely different from Apocalypse and Flash, the situation would not play out the same. Another you have to remember is Apocalypse's true form is pure psionic energy, which Flash can't even hurt, if Apocalypse left his shell, he could simply take over the Flash and leave the speedforce. Psionic energy can travel instantly due to it's connection to the astral plane. But it's highly doubtful that Flash could even hurt Apocalypse.

@dredeuced said:

@dalonewanderah said:

there is no version of flash that could beat apocalyse, apocalypse takes pretty much the whole earth to beat, he's like the darkseid of marvel, so flash is like an insect to him

Thanos is the Darkseid of Marvel. Apocalypse is a chump compared to those two, and Wally would paste Apocalypse like a bug. He's lucky it's only Barry. Well not really, considering Barry can still rend him apart at the molecular level, but atleast he won't be turned into a powerless statue stuck, unable to do anything, for a hundred years as punishment like Wally can do. Small favors.

lol the part where you said Apocalypse is a chump compared to the other two haha. That's funny.

I think Flash wins here via the Speed Force not to mention IMP

Also Flash doesn't have the IMP, it's a feat he performed once, in pre -52, which doesn't even count for this Flash. And it was Wally's feat not Barry's. Two completely different people.