Flash in Battle

I'm starting this thread as a long time lurker, but newer poster to Comic Vine. I've never seen/heard so many Flash stomps believers in my life. Some posters seem to indicate Flash destroys every one from Thanos on down simply by speedstealing and IMPs and avoiding every hit thrown at him. I'm interested if this is the actual case, or wishful thinking. Personally I'm no expert on Flash, so I'll withhold final judgement until I get some more facts (not opinions).

Let's start with the obvious to get it out of the way, Flash is fast. Almost no one would dispute he's in the top 3 fastest super heros, with Zoom and Silver Surfer in no particular order. There is no need to post feats of non-battle speed.

I'm interested in his actual battle feats, be it durability (ability to take a hit), evasion (ability to avoid a hit) and power of attack (damage done by attacks). Please no speculation, just straight battle feats.

Supporters and detractors are welcome to include scans/feats that demonstrate durability (or lack there of), evasion (or lack there of) or power (or lack there of). Feel free to include other scans/feats that would be relevant to a battle that aren't covered in these three main categories. I'm particularly interested in scans/feats against high level super heros (like Justice League folks and better), however any feats will do.

Thank you and please keep this civil!

Flash stomps.

@gav: Respect the Flash

Wally West

Barry Allen

Bart Allen

ALL Flashes: Wally, Barry, Bart and Jay

AND

Understanding how to search for things

This shouldn't be in the battles forum. I'm sure the moderators would move it to where it needs to be. Probably a Flash board directed Here!

@god_spawn

Well, its true almost no one can beat him. His superpower gives him the edge of reaction and speed... Both very important in battle. Not to mention the over-used argument about speedstealing. I can agree with some that he can beat almost everyone within his area, which is the ground. But im totally against people saying he can beat high reality warpers and similar entities, who can go intangible and stuff... People tend to use Flash best feats to overate him to the point of god-like stomps. He's been tagged by people a lot slower than him and has been beaten before, so i don't see why he can't be beaten in the Vine... They always use the bloodlusted feature for them to be able to use speedstealing, travel to time and kill him, the "amazo" move and on and on...

@gav: For damage output:

Gallery

Durability and evasiveness:

Gallery

I don't have that many flash scans though, sorry =(

Thanks for the scans, I've seen most, I was trying to be more narrow in the topic, specifically battle. If moderators feel a thread about battle feats don't belong in the battle forum, I"m sure they will move it.

@dratini1331: thank you

@gav: I'm sure they will too. If you really want battle feats of the Flash to substantiate claims then those websites have all the battles you'd be interested in. For reference though, Wally West was weak yet smashing the COIE Anti Monitor's armor like nothing. He didn't win the battle or anything but the fact he was gaining an upperhand speaks volumes. He's one of the biggest CIS/PIS victims in comics but he has to be. Someone specifically with the Flashes powers (beit Barry, Bart or Wally.. not you Jay) would be extremely dangerous and nighunstoppable like Zoom. Which is why his tenure wasn't very long. You might be interested in Walter West. He doesn't have many feats but he's a bit more lose than these guys are and you'd probably find more damage. Hope it helped. If you have dying questions then the 2 biggest experts on the VINE would be @zoom and @dredeuced. They could site issues, specify feats and tell you all you'd need to know.

Who's to say smashing the COIE Anti Monitors armour wasn't CIS/PIS? Has he performed many other feats like this against high level super heros?

@gav: does it matter which Flash?

@joeagentofhand1: nope, but specify which. Usually I hear all about Wally on this board, but if another Flash did something epic, I'm interested.

it doesnt matter if youre a reality warper. flash is faster than you can think to warp reality

@gav: Jay Garrick: tanks a punch from Zoom that sends him from New York to Dallas. Wonder Woman has compared Zoom's punch to Superman's.

(note: scan is right to left). Jay Garrick fights Black Adam.

Gallery

@convenientlie: thanks but no thanks for your opinion. read the OP where I request feats/scansrepeatedly.

@joeagentofhand1

First scan is impressive, second it just seems he's annoying Black Adam more than really hurting him, after all BA stops the swatting when he wants to.

@gav: Yes. He's stolen speed from an entire planet. He's slapped around PC Mongul (as durable as someone like Hulk/Thanos/Superman). Flashes have done quite a bit. 1-2 feats is enough to make a name for any character to best higher powered beings. Thanos and Doom for example. Wally's fought gods before, helped kill Darkseid, helped destroy the COIE Anti Monitor, but he's not really the type of character to cut lose on enemies. If that's what you're looking for you wont find it. You'll need to ask about Hunter Zolomon, Eobard Thawne or Walter West. They might be a little more of what you're looking for. Also I think this article could really help you.

Omg you have opened up a can of worms on this site.

Flash is very dope, but you are gonna be hard pressed to find a scan of him beating up a top tier level chararacter, why cuz there aren't any, any

um thanks but no thanks for YOUR comment but i seriously doubt you think flash (who is faster than light by ALOT) is slower than thought speed

Stealing speed from a bunch of mortals is one thing, stealing them from groups of Super Heros is another.

In the PC Mongul fight did he beat him into submission? Or annoy him like Black Adam?

What did he do to Darkseid in particular?

Thanks!

are you trying to say that wonderwoman was lying when she compared and IMP to being stronger than supermans punch? i hope not. it doesnt matter if the writers have him IMP anyone else. we know from wonderwoman that flash punches at superman level strength

@gav: Jay only stopped to save civilians so technically Jay could of beat Adam if he did not distract him.

Huh? I never said anything about that. So his IMP is equivalent to one superman punch? That's impressive against street-levelers, not top super heros who can withstand many. Now I have seen claims he can land billions of IMPS a nano second. If so, I want to see scans of him doing this (not just punching, but IMPs).

youre impressed with an IMPs power that is around superman level and then say its not versus super heroes? how old are you? cause that doesnt make sense? thats like saying 10 pounds of steel is heavier than 10 pounds of feathers. Thats just the silliest thing ive read today. an IMP is an IMP. dont confuse yourself. theres not 2 kinds of IMPs . that same IMP that you say impressed you vs a stree leveler is the same vs a super hero. why are you impressed with one then say its not impressive vs superhoers??? that is illogical. you just said its a superman level punch. you sound like a hater

it doesnt matter if a superhero or villain can take an IMP or not. why? cause he'll just keep IMPing them. now can the opponent take 50? probably not. regardless. it doesnt matter if the opponent lacks the required reaction time to do anything about it. and not manyii people do. flash written correctly is basically unstoppable

Maybe, but that's just speculation.

You're not getting my point at all. My point is a superman punch is only good if there are lots of them when it comes to fighting top level super heros. I'm not denying Flash can land an equivalent, I"m saying where is the proof he can just keep landing these at that speed? Scans if you are suggesting he can.

we all know he does IMPs correct? Ok now what happens to him afterwards? does he get into a coma and die? does he need to eat a full meal before he can do anotherone? what happens to him? There is nothing stating that he cant keep doing it. and if you are suggesting that he cant(and it seems thats what youre imlying) then you need to show that flash gets weaker or has stated that he can only do one.

You must have a hard time reading directions. Go back and read my first post again, paying particular attention to the emboldened parts about feats/scans. I'm not interested in your opinion, either show me the scan that Flash has landed multiple IMPS in under a second or not.

@gav: he could steal speed from the COIE anti monitor, superman, inertia... His mastery has allowed him to do it to electrons. It's not limited to who or what if that's what you mean. The ONLY character in comics he couldn't do it to was Hunter Zolomon and that's a long story. He nearly killed Mongul by accident. Speedsters have to gear down much of their power levels so they don't harm too much. In terms of Darkseid they lead the Omega beams back to him or the black racer (death) or both. I can't recall.

Show me ANYWHERE that it say he cant. You are starting to sound like if there is no scan saying superman has taken a shit, he cant do it. SHOW ME HE CANT

Is there a reference ever of Flash "holding back"? I know there scans of this for Thor, and I thought the same for Superman?

@gav: yes. In Justice League comics every now and again one of the other members speaks to the Flashes ability to control themselves. And I'm on my iPhone, but there are several references to Wally West being able to land millions of punches per second. I believe he hits Zom, a superpowered white Martian, with an infinite mass punch (Acceleration x Mass = Force) and states he could hit him with something like 1 million per second if he wanted. He has to gauge himself as not to kill or permanently harm. If one of the Flashes were bloodlusted, especially Wally, you'd be extremely hard pressed to find a character that isn't a non-corporeal entity or can actually be physically harmed, that could win. And even that doesn't guarantee a win, merely just not necessarily a loss. Most like a stalemate. As such in the case of Juggernaut whom can't be physically harmed or a Starheart possessed Alan Scott who would be completely made from magic (Stalemates).

Isn't Wally West omnipresent or something like that by Human Race?

Yeah. Wally instinctively zones out when moving at hyper speeds outside of combat so as not to have to spend relative days/weeks/months/years using his powers:

He also has to literally slow himself down just to be able to communicate with people:

Wally intentionally slowing himself so he can communicate with people tends to explain why he gets tagged so often. Wally doesn't spend his time 100% at massively light speeds because he'd go crazy and be unable to interact with anyone in the universe. He has to instinctively hold back on his speed force powers. When he didn't -- when he became effectively addicted to his super speed -- he started becoming an inhuman energy being:

This is why people can surprise him, or even tag him when he's running kind of fast -- especially when he's with the JL, as he needs to slow down just to be able to converse and strategize with them.

He's also, just like anyone else, susceptible to surprise. As long as it's not as slow as a bullet or something, in which case his super speed will automatically kick in.

@dredeuced: very informative, exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.

The IMP is a hail mary pass attack, he has never throw more than one and even people like Zoom survive it....so I have reason to believe its not more powerful than say a punch from Wonder Woman

If Flash is so invincible, why are his rogues so ordinary?

HURT

?

@charliejade: His villains aren't weak, though. It's kind of funny that you're still posting this garbage after getting banned for it. It's been pointed out time and time again that the Rogues as an organization are incredibly powerful.

Kadabra, Zoom, and Professor Zoom can literally solo the Justice League. Mirror Master is a top tier threat with his tech and Grodd's literally solo'd Superman before. Not to mention Top being, effectively, an ultrapowerful, unkillable psionic.

All of this said, The Rogues aren't a challenge for Flash and haven't been for awhile. While that may have been true in the Silver Age, which is where most of your pictures come from, the Rogues had to team up just to stand a chance, and they still always failed. Flash stomps them even when combining all their tech and ingenuity over and over again. The Captain Cold New-52 Scan obviously lacks context.

No go slink off like you always do and come back in a couple days to repost the same tired, trolling argument. Maybe you'll get banned for, what, the fifth time for this?

Flash has NEVER displayed the level of power some people claim he has, his advasaries and counterparts are street levelers with powerful weapons and some upgrades they have no durability at all, that is the level of villian he fights regularly in his own books. Sure he is a powerful X factor on the jla but he can't handle a top tier on his own, he doesn't have enough power or toughness

Being civil would anyone like to address this with specific examples of Flash soloing high caliber opponents? Thank you.

Wally West KOed Zum the white martian (for all intents and purposes, a being on par with J'onn Jones) in one punch in Morrison's JLA #2 or 3 by hitting him so hard he reached escape velocity.

Wally also defeated the original Mongul in Waid's Flash #102 by punching him into unconsciousness. It is worth noting that in For the Man Who Has Everything, Wonder Woman punched Mongul and only succeeded in hurting her hands.

In New Titans #3, Kid Flash (again, Wally) beat up Hal Jordan a bit.

During John's Flash run (not going to look up the issue right now), he also handled Cheetah just fine and stated that he could steal Superman's speed but wouldn't because it would be "like tossing a person out of a moving car" and it would have caused Supes to cause a skid mark of destruction from Kansas to Paris.

Without reading the whole thread, the main criticisms I'm seeing of Flash are

1) He's not that powerful and

2) His enemies are street levelers.

I think Flash is exactly as powerful as he is stated to be on this website (effing very powerful). The issue is more that Flash is incompetent due to necessity. Like Superman, Flash is insanely powerful. Unlike Superman, Flash does not have a lineup of planet busters lining up to fight him or a convenient weakness to allow any old villain to give him a run for his money if the plot demands it. Superman can "forget" that he has super speed if you want to give the rest of the Justice League something to do or if you want say...Darkseid (who seemingly has no super speed) to give him a good fight. Super speed is the Flash's main thing.

So, if you want to write a Justice League story where the Flash doesn't just beat up all the bad guys at the start of the fight scene or if you want to write a Flash story where the villain initially wins and the hero has to come up with a smarter way to go about defeating him (these are both super common story elements), you need the Flash to trip at the starting line. How many times has Flash ran straight at danger and got his butt handed to him? Happens all the time because the alternative is BORING and boring doesn't sell.

So if you want to say the Flash isn't that powerful, I'd say you're wrong. If you want to say he's not that good in a fight because he just doesn't pay very good attention and is way too sure of himself and his acceleration is a bit overstated, then I'd agree.

As for Flash not being powerful because he fights Captain Boomerang and Heat Wave....well, Batman fights Crazy Quilt and Superman has Roxy Rocket. They're not dangerous or competent but nobody thinks that fighting them makes Batman and Superman weak. Like those villains, Captain Boomerang and Heat Wave don't actually put up a good fight against the Flash. They're not in his weight class. Generally, they attack him as part of a group of 4 or 5 villains and Flash is something like 49 for 50 against each of them. Even weak villains get lucky every once in awhile, especially back in the Silver Age.

I'll politely suggest that anyone saying Flash isn't powerful because he fights Captain Boomerang just doesn't read much in the way of Flash comics.

I honestly think some people over-rate the Flash.

He is my favorite DC character, but I don't think he can simply "stomp" The Silver Surfer or Thanos. That's just wishful thinking.

Show me all the IMP and around-the-world in 0.23 second scans you like, but there are some things the Flash cannot match.

In response to OP's original question, Flash is problematic because the story often calls for him to trip at the starting line (as explained above) whereas the battle forum calls for no "Plot Induced Stupidity." Having the Flash get dropped at the start of a fight scene or asking a bad guy to surrender only to get blasted is fine when the goal is to tell a good story. But when the goal is to logically look at the DC universe and decide how powerful a character is? It's "stupid" because the Flash shouldn't be effing up all the time.

So, battle forum Flash is basically taking the character on his best day, treating him as if logic defined his history, not the whims of writers and throwing out every fight where he would have won if only he had tried harder or been more careful.

That makes him a way bigger threat than he is in the comics.

So would Flash beat down someone like Thanos with infinite mass punches and speed steals in the comics? No. Absolutely not. (Which isn't to say Flash wouldn't win if that fight took place in the comics.) Would Flash beat down Thanos with IMP and speed steal If both characters were real and didn't have to win or lose based on a writer's attempt to tell an interesting story? Yes.

hmm i think the opposite is true. i think people think he's too powerful and look to low ball him at every chance. mainly marvel fans. i wont mention names.

He may not have been doing BA much damage, but he was still striking him with enough power to actually make him go backward off balance. It takes a LOT to be able to do even that to someone of BA's durability, there are only a very few who can. BA certainly did NOT stop it, he managed to divert Jay's attention elsewhere by placing others at risk. . If Jay hadn't been concerned for civilians BA still had no way to either dodge, avoid or even react to Jay. I'd also like to point out that this feat was AFTER Jay's first Heart attack. At this point Jay would not risk exceeding light speed ( of which he was quite capable within his power level) because raising his heart rate over 20,000 beats a minute for any length of period could cause another ( the figure is from memory and may be off, but I think that's right). As such he never went anywhere near a speed that would allow IMP. This means that the level of damage he's able to deliver is vastly restricted compared to what it could be. He has gone FTL since then but paces himself and only for VERY brief spurts.

Im interested in Flash speedstealing Reality Warpers... Or BFring them to the speedforce... Or doing w/e speedforce ownage on them if you may.

Also... He can't just IMP to eternity...

with people like him it is simple

he stomps (people who cannot react)

or

he gets stomped (omnipresents and those with better hax)

hard to find those that can fight on equal ground

In a flash annual [back then] he has the death touch/dim mak as well because lack of chi control

For a thread asking for scans, there's a massive lack of scans. I feel sorry for OP.

Flash battles are boring they are basiclaly just “I know your character can one shot flash but flash is faster so he speedblitzes. Flash wins.”.

Flash is too op now