Flash(Bart) VS Gladiator

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RandomSid82

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@sodamyat said:

Edited by RealityWarper (5998 posts) 1 minute, 37 seconds ago

I agree that Gladiator don't make a speed feat there.

I guess that "everything's frozen in place relative to us" means "everything's frozen in place relative to [the starfleet and the fantastic four who are in the time bubble".

IMO the time bubble engulf the whole starfleet to allow the spaceships to go at hyperspeed or something like this.

I haven't read the issue but it's the most logical assumption here.

Moreover Flash (Bart) is faster than Gladiator.

BUT Gladiator has the other advantages that Superman has over The Flash.

Not sure why you are posting someone else's reply that wasn't even in this thread, or why he didn't just post it here himself, but if I am not mistaken the starfleet was frozen in place as well so that "assumption" doesn't fit. And not sure how being able to move through an area where nothing else was able to move using pure speed is not a speed feat either. Doesn't make any sense.

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SodamYat

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@sodamyat said:

Edited by RealityWarper (5998 posts) 1 minute, 37 seconds ago

I agree that Gladiator don't make a speed feat there.

I guess that "everything's frozen in place relative to us" means "everything's frozen in place relative to [the starfleet and the fantastic four who are in the time bubble".

IMO the time bubble engulf the whole starfleet to allow the spaceships to go at hyperspeed or something like this.

I haven't read the issue but it's the most logical assumption here.

Moreover Flash (Bart) is faster than Gladiator.

BUT Gladiator has the other advantages that Superman has over The Flash.

Not sure why you are posting someone else's reply that wasn't even in this thread, or why he didn't just post it here himself, but if I am not mistaken the starfleet was frozen in place as well so that "assumption" doesn't fit. And not sure how being able to move through an area where nothing else was able to move using pure speed is not a speed feat either. Doesn't make any sense.

Sigh. I'll try this one last time.

Time was not stopped. Look up time dilation, please. While youre at it, please look up what relative means. Everything was moving just fine. Inside the bubble time was moving faster than outside the bubble. Thats why Reed says that time dilation was doing its job and that relative to them everything else seemed frozen in place. But in reality it was just going at the same rate it always does. Only inside the bubble was time moving at a different rate.

Thats as plainly as I can make it. If you are still confused after this point, do me a favor and dont reply to me. Just point out that you disagree and ask someone else on this site.

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RandomSid82

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#103  Edited By RandomSid82

@sodamyat: Once again, real world science doesn't equal comic book science otherwise Flash and any other character would not be able to run faster than light. And no, everything was NOT moving just fine, read the issue, everything was frozen. The fact remains that while everything else was frozen, Gladiator flew through this same field and kept up with the ship that Reed with his tech was in and busted into the ship just fine.

Even if we went by your thoughts on it, it would still be a very impressive showing in speed for Gladiator. in order for the rest of it to be frozen to Reed they would have had to be going significantly faster than light, which again goes against real world science. Then there is always the fact that Gladiator has been casually seen moving at 100x the speed of light. What that means is that he could travel from Earth to Mars in just 2 seconds. Or, he could casually travel the full circumference of the Earth nearly 75 times in a single second.

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Kallark wins. Good fight, but he still takes it pretty handily.

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SodamYat

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@sodamyat: Once again, real world science doesn't equal comic book science otherwise Flash and any other character would not be able to run faster than light. And no, everything was NOT moving just fine, read the issue, everything was frozen. The fact remains that while everything else was frozen, Gladiator flew through this same field and kept up with the ship that Reed with his tech was in and busted into the ship just fine.

Even if we went by your thoughts on it, it would still be a very impressive showing in speed for Gladiator. in order for the rest of it to be frozen to Reed they would have had to be going significantly faster than light, which again goes against real world science. Then there is always the fact that Gladiator has been casually seen moving at 100x the speed of light. What that means is that he could travel from Earth to Mars in just 2 seconds. Or, he could casually travel the full circumference of the Earth nearly 75 times in a single second.

Disbelief

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RandomSid82

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#106  Edited By RandomSid82

@sodamyat: You can't be that dense. Stop the trolling. The fact is that real world science does not work with comics. I mean, you could use your real world science, then we can say that no character in comics can travel FTL. Is that what you want?

Now question. I know that Flash has attosecond reaction times, what is the fastest, in terms of meters per second that he runs without speed steal or any amps? With scans, not fan calculations.

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#107  Edited By SodamYat

@randomsid said:

@sodamyat: You can't be that dense. Stop the trolling. The fact is that real world science does not work with comics. I mean, you could use your real world science, then we can say that no character in comics can travel FTL. Is that what you want?

Now question. I know that Flash has attosecond reaction times, what is the fastest, in terms of meters per second that he runs without speed steal or any amps? With scans, not fan calculations.

Dude...Im not using anything other than Reed's own words...wow

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RandomSid82

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@sodamyat said:

@randomsid said:

@sodamyat: You can't be that dense. Stop the trolling. The fact is that real world science does not work with comics. I mean, you could use your real world science, then we can say that no character in comics can travel FTL. Is that what you want?

Now question. I know that Flash has attosecond reaction times, what is the fastest, in terms of meters per second that he runs without speed steal or any amps? With scans, not fan calculations.

Dude...Im not using anything other than Ree'ds own words...wow

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SodamYat

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#109  Edited By SodamYat

So, umm...some people believe that Gladiator has time stop immunity...

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FiendishMind

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#110  Edited By FiendishMind

Gladiator did not move through a "time stop", it was time dilation as explained here in Fantastic Four 338.

No Caption Provided

Gladiator's feat is still quite impressive IMO though, since he fought Thor in this time dilation while Thor had a "portable probability field" that rendered him immune to it's effects and it was more or less a stalemate until Thing broke it up.

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Speedster101

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Don't chya just love it when Flash threads get 100+ replies? lol...

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@fiendish said:

Gladiator did not move through a "time stop", it was time dilation as explained here in Fantastic Four 338.

No Caption Provided

Gladiator's feat is still quite impressive IMO though, since he fought Thor in this time dilation while Thor had a "portable probability field" that rendered him immune to it's effects and it was more or less a stalemate until Thing broke it up.

While it wasn't a true time stop, it was basically the same thing. And by that I mean that even though in relation to the ship that Reed and company are on everything is frozen in time, but Gladiator(in relation to the ship that Reed and company are on) is still moving at high speeds. So unlike everything else that wasn't moving at all(in relation to Reed) Gladiator was still moving as fast as normal(in relation to Reed). In order to do that he would have to have been moving at incredible speeds. And we already know that he can casually move at speeds of over 100x FTL.

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SodamYat

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@fiendish said:

Gladiator did not move through a "time stop", it was time dilation as explained here in Fantastic Four 338.

No Caption Provided

Gladiator's feat is still quite impressive IMO though, since he fought Thor in this time dilation while Thor had a "portable probability field" that rendered him immune to it's effects and it was more or less a stalemate until Thing broke it up.

LOL thats what Ive been saying. But some people are not understanding this easy, simple fact.

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militaryMan

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Bart

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Dredeuced

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#116  Edited By Dredeuced

@randomsid said:

@dredeuced said:

@sodamyat said:

This is the feat in question:

No Caption Provided

Yeah, things being frozen "relative to us" is stuff Wally could do when he was barely Mach 10 speed. Don't know why anyone thinks particularly highly off this feat.

There is a major difference between the two. For Flash, things aren't actually frozen, they just look like it to him because he is moving so fast. In this instance, things are actually frozen because of the time dilation effect. And Gladiator flew through a time dilation that froze everything outside of Reed's tech with pure speed.

You can't...fly through time dilation. It's not an object. It's a mathematical concept...

To get a time dilation effect you only need to approach the speed of light. This causes time to slow down relative to you. This is literally exactly what happens with the Flashes when they go near lightspeed -- everything around them appears frozen relative to them(actually, Time Dilation more has to do with how time interacts with your frame of reference at that speed more than "other people appear frozen" thing, like how if you traveled at lightspeed for 100 years you would only experience 1 year passing while those at a slower reference frame would experience the entire 100 years). That's the entire point of the statement "relative to us." You wouldn't need that qualifier if they were just moving in stopped time.

As someone later points out, the outside world is moving at a speed infinitesimally small -- but still moving. Time is not frozen or stopped. Again, this is something Wally's been doing since the Mid 90's and is way, way below Bart's capability when he was The Flash.

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RandomSid82

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@randomsid said:

@dredeuced said:

@sodamyat said:

This is the feat in question:

No Caption Provided

Yeah, things being frozen "relative to us" is stuff Wally could do when he was barely Mach 10 speed. Don't know why anyone thinks particularly highly off this feat.

There is a major difference between the two. For Flash, things aren't actually frozen, they just look like it to him because he is moving so fast. In this instance, things are actually frozen because of the time dilation effect. And Gladiator flew through a time dilation that froze everything outside of Reed's tech with pure speed.

You can't...fly through time dilation. It's not an object. It's a mathematical concept...

To get a time dilation effect you only need to approach the speed of light. This causes time to slow down relative to you. This is literally exactly what happens with the Flashes when they go near lightspeed -- everything around them appears frozen relative to them(actually, Time Dilation more has to do with how time interacts with your frame of reference at that speed more than "other people appear frozen" thing, like how if you traveled at lightspeed for 100 years you would only experience 1 year passing while those at a slower reference frame would experience the entire 100 years). That's the entire point of the statement "relative to us." You wouldn't need that qualifier if they were just moving in stopped time.

As someone later points out, the outside world is moving at a speed infinitesimally small -- but still moving. Time is not frozen or stopped. Again, this is something Wally's been doing since the Mid 90's and is way, way below Bart's capability when he was The Flash.

Again, real world science does not always(very rarely actually) equal comic book science. Yes, I know that in the real world what he did would be impossible, that isn't the point. In the real world what 99% of things characters do in comics would not be possible. The point is that relative to Reed, the rest of that area was completely frozen in time. The point was that even though the rest of it was completely frozen in time(relative to Reed) Gladiator was not, he was moving at the same speeds he has always moved and had an entire fight with Thor(who was protected from the time dilation by tech) with no problems. In order to do this he would have had to be moving extremely fast(exactly how fast would depend on a lot of different factors). Not sure what is not being understood there. And again, why give Bart his adult Flash feats when he had not performed them yet as Kid Flash? That makes no sense. The main point is that Gladiator, while he may not be as fast as Kid Flash, he is most definitely not going to "appear as a statue" to Kid Flash. And because of that simple fact, he will win this fight. All he really has to do is get one decent hit in on Kid Flash.

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Dredeuced

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#118  Edited By Dredeuced

@randomsid: They don't very explicitly mention a real world effect like Time Dilation and let you ignore it. Just earlier in this thread you were trying to literally make up what Time Dilation was to suit your point. You're lying through your teeth and have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, relative to the F4things were frozen. But they were not completely frozen. Reed specifically says as much. Wally West went through this exact instance when he learned the Speed Formula -- when you are moving at a certain speed everything does appear relatively frozen, but they're just moving infinitesimally slower. So yes, Gladiator can move at speeds approaching lightspeed, which lets him act in a frame of reference similar to Reed's in that device-- this would cause a time dilation effect. This does not mean Gladiator is fast enough to move in frozen time.

I agree that Gladiator can move at near lightspeeds. He can actually go faster than that, as far as I'm aware -- that's not even a particularly top end speed feat for him. It just seemed like you were arguing that Gladiator is fast enough to move in stopped time when he clearly can not by basically every other showing he's ever had and by examining the feat.

There is an argument to be made about the Kid Flash/Flash thing. The title says "Flash(Bart)" which would imply that we are using Bart when he was The Flash. Then he says Kid Flash later on in the OP. I'm not sure and that's a fair point to make. I suppose you could ask SodamYat which version he meant.

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RandomSid82

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@dredeuced: Flagged for insults. If you can't talk without insulting me you will be flagged and ignored. When you can debate without the insults feel free to try again. There was no lie just because you refused to understand what I was saying. Sorry, doesn't work that way.

And yeah, this is the first post in which is specifically says KID FLASH, not Bart as Adult Flash.

#1 Posted by SodamYat (2971 posts) - 13 hours, 14 minutes ago - Show Bio

Morals off

No preparation time

Standard weaponry

Can Kid Flash beat an opponent as strong and fast as Kal

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Wow, 3 pages of absolutely nothing. Comicvine at its best.

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#121  Edited By Dredeuced

@randomsid said:

@dredeuced: Flagged for insults. If you can't talk without insulting me you will be flagged and ignored. When you can debate without the insults feel free to try again. There was no lie just because you refused to understand what I was saying. Sorry, doesn't work that way.

And yeah, this is the first post in which is specifically says KID FLASH, not Bart as Adult Flash.

#1 Posted by SodamYat (2971 posts) - 13 hours, 14 minutes ago - Show Bio

Morals off

No preparation time

Standard weaponry

Can Kid Flash beat an opponent as strong and fast as Kal

Saying that you're lying is not an insult. It had nothing to do with me not understanding you -- there was nothing to understand. You took a feat out of context and then made stuff up, and when called out for being obviously wrong you make something up about "Well, comics physics doesn't always match up with real world physics" as if that somehow glosses over you completely inventing your own definition for time dilation and then applying it to the feat. Maybe you didn't intend to lie and someone else explained it to you this way and you believed them, but since being proven wrong your insistence on a demonstrably false statement is an apparent lie. You can flag me all you want, stating the facts of your actions isn't going to cause any trouble.

And yes, I'm saying there is a contradiction in the Thread Title and in the opening post. One says Flash, one says Kid Flash. Bart has been both. If the thread title said "Flash(Wally West) vs Gladiator" and then the opening post said "Can Kid Flash beat Gladiator?" it would be the same situation. Neither of us are wrong for assuming one or the other.

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@randomsid: They don't very explicitly mention a real world effect like Time Dilation and let you ignore it. Just earlier in this thread you were trying to literally make up what Time Dilation was to suit your point. You're lying through your teeth and have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, relative to the F4things were frozen. But they were not completely frozen. Reed specifically says as much. Wally West went through this exact instance when he learned the Speed Formula -- when you are moving at a certain speed everything does appear relatively frozen, but they're just moving infinitesimally slower. So yes, Gladiator can move at speeds approaching lightspeed, which lets him act in a frame of reference similar to Reed's in that device-- this would cause a time dilation effect. This does not mean Gladiator is fast enough to move in frozen time.

. It just seemed like you were arguing that Gladiator is fast enough to move in stopped time when he clearly can not by basically every other showing he's ever had and by examining the feat.

Meryl Streep hell yes

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@dredeuced: i'll change the OP. ive mentioned it to 2 other viners on this thread though, i meant it to be Barts feat all together. Sorry about the confusion.

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#124  Edited By RandomSid82

@dredeuced: Sorry, but calling me a liar because you did not understand what I was saying absolutely is an insult. Doesn't matter if you agree or not.

First, I didn't make anything up. Second, EVERYBODY knows that comic science does not equal real world science. If you tried to apply real world science to everything in comics then 99% of the things done in comics would not happen. I mean, we can always apply real world science if you want, but that would significantly lower Kid Flash's chances of winning even more. By real world science he can't run FTL because NOTHING can go FTL.

And you really should read what I post before trying to make an erroneous post calling it a lie.

The point was that even though the rest of it was completely frozen in time(relative to Reed) Gladiator was not, he was moving at the same speeds he has always moved and had an entire fight with Thor(who was protected from the time dilation by tech) with no problems. In order to do this he would have had to be moving extremely fast(exactly how fast would depend on a lot of different factors). Not sure what is not being understood there.

Now, since he has changed it to mean that Adult Bart Flash's feats are applicable as well, how many times has Bart actually absorbed the speed force during a battle? Can't do it pre battle because it says no prep. If it is only once, then it is not something he would do often and may not even be able to do here. A morals off Gladiator is not going to let up on his attacks.

And once again, Bart would probably be faster than Gladiator(we do not know Gladiators top speed but we do know he can casually fly at 100x FTL). However, even so Gladiator will not "appear as a statue" to him. I was going to mention another speed feat, but it seems to have slipped my mind(maybe because it is getting around time for me to head to bed). If I think of it before I go to bed, I'll come back and add it in.

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AZTERIX_

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If Gladiator is full confidence, I think he can take. Bloodlusted Flash is really unpredictable however ;P.

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TheGrayGhost

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@randomsid: the thread title says "Flash ( Bart) vs Gladiator"

generally if we say "Flash ( bart)", we are talking about bart when he absorbed the speed force

it's hardly my fault that the OP then proceeds to say "Kid Flash"

As for the other stuff, nope you are definitely pro marvel in every thread ive seen you in , often without any basis for the same ( heh "Hulk beats wally!")

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RandomSid82

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@randomsid: the thread title says "Flash ( Bart) vs Gladiator"

generally if we say "Flash ( bart)", we are talking about bart when he absorbed the speed force

it's hardly my fault that the OP then proceeds to say "Kid Flash"

As for the other stuff, nope you are definitely pro marvel in every thread ive seen you in , often without any basis for the same ( heh "Hulk beats wally!")

Then you need to go look at more threads. Just today alone I have actually voted more for DC than Marvel. Just because you only go to the ones that I vote for Marvel in doesn't mean that I only vote for Marvel. And yeah, sorry but I never said Hulk beats Wally and you know it, the ONLY thing I said about that was if it was just standing there exchanging blows then Hulk would beat Wally. Don't try to post stuff that if FAR out of context.

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Dredeuced

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@dredeuced: Sorry, but calling me a liar because you did not understand what I was saying absolutely is an insult. Doesn't matter if you agree or not.

First, I didn't make anything up. Second, EVERYBODY knows that comic science does not equal real world science. If you tried to apply real world science to everything in comics then 99% of the things done in comics would not happen. I mean, we can always apply real world science if you want, but that would significantly lower Kid Flash's chances of winning even more. By real world science he can't run FTL because NOTHING can go FTL.

And you really should read what I post before trying to make an erroneous post calling it a lie.

The point was that even though the rest of it was completely frozen in time(relative to Reed) Gladiator was not, he was moving at the same speeds he has always moved and had an entire fight with Thor(who was protected from the time dilation by tech) with no problems. In order to do this he would have had to be moving extremely fast(exactly how fast would depend on a lot of different factors). Not sure what is not being understood there.

Now, since he has changed it to mean that Adult Bart Flash's feats are applicable as well, how many times has Bart actually absorbed the speed force during a battle? Can't do it pre battle because it says no prep. If it is only once, then it is not something he would do often and may not even be able to do here. A morals off Gladiator is not going to let up on his attacks.

And once again, Bart would probably be faster than Gladiator(we do not know Gladiators top speed but we do know he can casually fly at 100x FTL). However, even so Gladiator will not "appear as a statue" to him. I was going to mention another speed feat, but it seems to have slipped my mind(maybe because it is getting around time for me to head to bed). If I think of it before I go to bed, I'll come back and add it in.

I'm calling you a liar because you intentionally made something up and then presented it as the truth. It has nothing to do with understanding something. I understand what time dilation is. You just happened to say it meant something entirely differently and then continued to say nonsense to justify it. You can't just make up whatever you want and then say "Comic Science does not equal real world science." Do I get to say that Bart can punch hard enough to destroy the universe because comic science does not equal real world science? Because that's what you're doing. You came to your conclusion from nowhere.

See, it wouldn't be a lie if it wasn't so gosh darn intentional. I would've honestly believed you made a mistake and didn't really get what the comic meant by time dilation and that was that--mistakes aren't inherently lies. It's all the conduct afterwards where the obvious lying comes into play. It's not an insult to point out what you obviously did. For instance: You're wrong! Saying you're wrong is not an insult even if there's negative connotation with it.

Bart doesn't, like, absorb the Speed Force as an action. When he was The Flash the Speed Force was contained in his body at all times. It was just something he had until he had his powers removed from a device, which caused the Speed Force to return to normal.

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TheGrayGhost

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as for the thread, Kid Flash loses ....badly to gladiator

And as for the gladiator feat, the time dilation in question encompassed the entire universe so that no one could enter 15 years of the timestream ( which by the time they entered the bubble extended to at least 100 years)

Inside this dilation, Gladiator manged to move interstellar distances in HOURS. even without a dilation that is a waay FTL feat. with the dilation in effect, it moves into WTF wally west territory

given wallys very best feats, involve topping out various time shenanigans, being the only thing in the universe able to actually move and fight at reed richards' speeds when say starfleets and the ilk are frozen, puts him right up in wallys league

Reed talking about the dilation being relative while hes moving in his own personal timeline that allowed him to pierce the impenetrable time bubble and move around with all of his ordinary human reflexes for 15 days without the Shiar workers moving an inch, doesn't actually make the feat any less impressive at all

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TheGrayGhost

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@randomsid: oh boy this is hilarious.

Heck ill just go ahead and ask it since your reaction is going to be priceless

Hulk vs wally in a " knock down, drag out fight"! who would win?

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RandomSid82

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@randomsid said:

@dredeuced: Sorry, but calling me a liar because you did not understand what I was saying absolutely is an insult. Doesn't matter if you agree or not.

First, I didn't make anything up. Second, EVERYBODY knows that comic science does not equal real world science. If you tried to apply real world science to everything in comics then 99% of the things done in comics would not happen. I mean, we can always apply real world science if you want, but that would significantly lower Kid Flash's chances of winning even more. By real world science he can't run FTL because NOTHING can go FTL.

And you really should read what I post before trying to make an erroneous post calling it a lie.

The point was that even though the rest of it was completely frozen in time(relative to Reed) Gladiator was not, he was moving at the same speeds he has always moved and had an entire fight with Thor(who was protected from the time dilation by tech) with no problems. In order to do this he would have had to be moving extremely fast(exactly how fast would depend on a lot of different factors). Not sure what is not being understood there.

Now, since he has changed it to mean that Adult Bart Flash's feats are applicable as well, how many times has Bart actually absorbed the speed force during a battle? Can't do it pre battle because it says no prep. If it is only once, then it is not something he would do often and may not even be able to do here. A morals off Gladiator is not going to let up on his attacks.

And once again, Bart would probably be faster than Gladiator(we do not know Gladiators top speed but we do know he can casually fly at 100x FTL). However, even so Gladiator will not "appear as a statue" to him. I was going to mention another speed feat, but it seems to have slipped my mind(maybe because it is getting around time for me to head to bed). If I think of it before I go to bed, I'll come back and add it in.

I'm calling you a liar because you intentionally made something up and then presented it as the truth. It has nothing to do with understanding something. I understand what time dilation is. You just happened to say it meant something entirely differently and then continued to say nonsense to justify it. You can't just make up whatever you want and then say "Comic Science does not equal real world science." Do I get to say that Bart can punch hard enough to destroy the universe because comic science does not equal real world science? Because that's what you're doing. You came to your conclusion from nowhere.

First, I didn't make up anything. The comic said "Everything's frozen in place relative to us." I didn't make up something else, I said what the comic said. Sorry, that isn't a lie. The fact that it is relative to them doesn't really make a huge difference because regardless of if it is relative to them or not the fact remains that Gladiator flew through the same area where everything was frozen in place just like it was a normal area.

See, it wouldn't be a lie if it wasn't so gosh darn intentional. I would've honestly believed you made a mistake and didn't really get what the comic meant by time dilation and that was that--mistakes aren't inherently lies. It's all the conduct afterwards where the obvious lying comes into play. It's not an insult to point out what you obviously did. For instance: You're wrong! Saying you're wrong is not an insult even if there's negative connotation with it.

And yes, calling someone a liar when nothing they said was a lie is absolutely an insult and you will be flagged for it. Don't like it? Don't do it. Simple as that. And there is a HUGE difference in saying someone is wrong, and calling someone a liar. The fact that you even compare the two shows you have no idea what an insult is. Allow me to post the definition for you:

to do or say something that is offensive to (someone) : to do or say something that shows a lack of respect for (someone)

Now, the simple fact is, calling me a liar when nothing I said was a lie is very offensive to me. So yes, that was an insult and you were flagged for it.

Bart doesn't, like, absorb the Speed Force as an action. When he was The Flash the Speed Force was contained in his body at all times. It was just something he had until he had his powers removed from a device, which caused the Speed Force to return to normal.

This part I did not know, so, exactly how fast did that make him? I mean in measurable terms such as m/s. And another question is, if it was contained in his body at all times and that made him faster...why didn't other Flash characters do the same thing? Was it a conscious act?

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RandomSid82

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#132  Edited By RandomSid82

@thegrayghost said:

@randomsid: oh boy this is hilarious.

Heck ill just go ahead and ask it since your reaction is going to be priceless

Hulk vs wally in a " knock down, drag out fight"! who would win?

I already answered that in this very thread. If they are just standing there exchanging blows then yes Hulk would win. If they are moving around like in an actual fight then Wally would win, though it wouldn't be a permanent win because Wally really has no way to kill the Hulk.

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TheGrayGhost

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#133  Edited By TheGrayGhost

actually gladiator did NOT " fly through the area like nothing ". he was later exhausted from the effort of continuously operating at hyper speed

So that would in fact constitute a lie, yes. heh

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Did I stutter? You circled the words "relative to us". I already explained(and it was explained in the issue) that it is relative to them because of the tech Reed was using to allow them to move in the time dilation. So circling the words relative to us doesn't mean a thing. The fact is, time was completely frozen there outside of Reed's tech and Gladiator did not need the tech. He flew through it anyway through sheer speed.

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Dredeuced

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#135  Edited By Dredeuced

@randomsid: Dude, you said time dilation was a thing that Gladiator flew through and that the F4 had to be protected from. When told this was not how time dilation works you said that comic physics are not equivalent to real world physics and that you were right. You made up your own definition for time dilation (at first, possibly a mistake) and then when corrected called someone else wrong and said that they just don't understand it like you understand it because "comic physics are different." At that point it is a lie. You said something incorrect and then tried to defend it with poor logic and a red herring when the truth was revealed. Saying that Gladiator was fast enough to move in the relatively frozen effect Reed was experiencing is perfectly valid and a feat, it's the rest of the crap and then continuing to assert that time was completely frozen (it was not) despite both logical and direct evidence to the contrary and your own, nebulous and incorrect, definition of time dilation(where you try to explain it as some scientific effect that freezes time) is where you lie. You seem to think that just because some of the things you said weren't lies that nothing was. If this offends you then, well, don't lie and when you make a mistake own up to it instead of trying to continue misleading people.

All you had to do was admit you screwed up the definition of what time dilation is and how it pertains to that feat and it wouldn't have gotten this far. But I'm guessing you have a really hard time admitting when you're wrong or when you make a mistake. It just ends up with you digging your hole deeper and deeper until we get into this situation where you're deflecting blame by playing the victim because I said you lied. I don't just call anyone I disagree with a liar on this forum -- I only do it to point out how obviously incorrect and duplicitous what they're saying is.

Bart had to go back to Earth to warn everyone about Superboy Prime coming, as he escaped the red sun lamp prison he and Wally put him in after Infinite Crisis. Superboy Prime had a significant head start and is a better dimension traveler than Bart so, to give Bart the boost he needed to beat Superboy Prime there, Wally, Barry and Bart combined their effort to charge Bart with as much energy as they could -- the reason they sent Bart is that Wally didn't want to risk taking his wife and kids through the Speed Force and Barry coming back would've obviously been a weird adjustment. This resulted in the entire Speed Force getting contained within Bart because, as you'd expect, Wally Barry and Bart combining their efforts is quite effective. Ever since he put on The Flash costume he had the entire Speed Force inside of him up until Inertia removed it.

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RandomSid82

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actually gladiator did NOT " fly through the area like nothing ". he was later exhausted from the effort of continuously operating at hyper speed

So that would in fact constitute a lie, yes. heh

Well, I did forget that he was exhausted later, but still while he was doing it it was the same as flying through normal space. And by that I mean(since people seem to read their own meanings into anything you say if you don't spell it out word for word) that he was going the same speed that he would normally go despite the fact that everything else(including starships that can fly FTL) were literally frozen in time around him.

Do I really have to spell out every tiny little thing? People should have at least some ability to understand what a person is saying without every tiny thing being spelled out in detail.

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Dredeuced

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#137  Edited By Dredeuced

@randomsid said:

@thegrayghost said:

actually gladiator did NOT " fly through the area like nothing ". he was later exhausted from the effort of continuously operating at hyper speed

So that would in fact constitute a lie, yes. heh

Well, I did forget that he was exhausted later, but still while he was doing it it was the same as flying through normal space. And by that I mean(since people seem to read their own meanings into anything you say if you don't spell it out word for word) that he was going the same speed that he would normally go despite the fact that everything else(including starships that can fly FTL) were literally frozen in time around him.

Do I really have to spell out every tiny little thing? People should have at least some ability to understand what a person is saying without every tiny thing being spelled out in detail.

This is not how it works. Reed was operating at a speed where, relative to him, the world around him was moving infinitesimally slow and appeared frozen. The key word here is appeared frozen. They are still moving, it's just at such a considerably slower speed that you do not recognize it. In the same sense that a glacier appears relatively frozen to you, but is actually moving. Gladiator happens to be fast enough to get around this effect. This is not a matter of you not spelling out every little detail. This is you misconstruing the feat and also making things up about concepts like Time Dilation to try to back your misinterpretation. You seem to think the words "relative to us" mean nothing when they mean everything. Gladiator can't move in stopped time.

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RandomSid82

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#138  Edited By RandomSid82

@randomsid: Dude, you said time dilation was a thing that Gladiator flew through and that the F4 had to be protected from. When told this was not how time dilation works you said that comic physics are not equivalent to real world physics and that you were right. You made up your own definition for time dilation (at first, possibly a mistake) and then when corrected called someone else wrong and said that they just don't understand it like you understand it because "comic physics are different." At that point it is a lie. You said something incorrect and then tried to defend it with poor logic and a red herring when the truth was revealed. Saying that Gladiator was fast enough to move in the relatively frozen effect Reed was experiencing is perfectly valid and a feat, it's the rest of the crap and then continuing to assert that time was frozen despite both logical and direct evidence to the contrary and your own, nebulous and incorrect, definition of time dilation is where you lie. You seem to think that just because some of the things you said weren't lies that nothing was. If this offends you then, well, don't lie and when you make a mistake own up to it instead of trying to continue misleading people.

Ok, there is almost no difference between what I said and what you are saying. The comic said that everything was frozen relative to them. Gladiator was not, he was flying the same speeds he would normally fly. How is that hard to understand? That is what I was saying. So, just because you failed to understand what I was saying doesn't mean anything I said was a lie. Was I wrong about him flying through it effortlessly? Sure, I forgot he was exhausted later, but the fact remains that while everything else was frozen, he was moving at his normal speeds. The ONLY difference between what you are saying, and what I originally said is that later on Reed goes on to say that it isn't technically frozen, but that relative to them it is. That doesn't change the fact that Gladiator still flew through the same area where everything else was frozen, at his normal speeds.

All you had to do was admit you screwed up the definition of what time dilation is and how it pertains to that feat and it wouldn't have gotten this far. But I'm guessing you have a really hard time admitting when you're wrong or when you make a mistake. It just ends up with you digging your hole deeper and deeper until we get into this situation where you're deflecting blame by playing the victim because I said you lied. I don't just call anyone I disagree with a liar on this forum -- I only do it to point out how obviously incorrect and duplicitous what they're saying is.

Ahh but see, you called me a liar because you did not understand(not sure how you could possibly fail to understand) what I was saying. So tell me, what is the difference between flying through an area where everything else(despite the fact that it is normally FTL) is at a standstill, and flying through an area that is frozen in time? In both instances the things around you are not moving. So again, what is the difference?

Bart had to go back to Earth to warn everyone about Superboy Prime coming, as he escaped the red sun lamp prison he and Wally put him in after Infinite Crisis. Superboy Prime had a significant head start and is a better dimension traveler than Bart so, to give Bart the boost he needed to beat Superboy Prime there, Wally, Barry and Bart combined their effort to charge Bart with as much energy as they could -- the reason they sent Bart is that Wally didn't want to risk taking his wife and kids through the Speed Force and Barry coming back would've obviously been a weird adjustment. This resulted in the entire Speed Force getting contained within Bart because, as you'd expect, Wally Barry and Bart combining their efforts is quite effective. Ever since he put on The Flash costume he had the entire Speed Force inside of him up until Inertia removed it.

Ok, that answers when he got the Speed Force contained inside him, but it doesn't answer my question about exactly how fast he could move at that point. Anyway, about to go to bed now so, maybe I'll have time to check the thread before work tomorrow.

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RandomSid82

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@randomsid said:

@thegrayghost said:

actually gladiator did NOT " fly through the area like nothing ". he was later exhausted from the effort of continuously operating at hyper speed

So that would in fact constitute a lie, yes. heh

Well, I did forget that he was exhausted later, but still while he was doing it it was the same as flying through normal space. And by that I mean(since people seem to read their own meanings into anything you say if you don't spell it out word for word) that he was going the same speed that he would normally go despite the fact that everything else(including starships that can fly FTL) were literally frozen in time around him.

Do I really have to spell out every tiny little thing? People should have at least some ability to understand what a person is saying without every tiny thing being spelled out in detail.

This is not how it works. Reed was operating at a speed where, relative to him, the world around him was moving infinitesimally slow and appeared frozen. The key word here is appeared frozen. They are still moving, it's just at such a considerably slower speed that you do not recognize it. In the same sense that a glacier appears relatively frozen to you, but is actually moving. Gladiator happens to be fast enough to get around this effect. This is not a matter of you not spelling out every little detail. This is you misconstruing the feat and also making things up about concepts like Time Dilation to try to back your misinterpretation. You seem to think the words "relative to us" mean nothing when they mean everything. Gladiator can't move in stopped time.

Lets try this one more time before I go to bed. It was my understanding of the comic that(although in real world science that is the way time dilation works) Reed wasn't traveling at a high speed and wasn't the one causing the Time Dilation. The time dilation was caused by a "time bubble" that was slowing everything in the universe down. And Gladiator was flying through that same area at his normal speeds. At least that was my understanding of the comic. Maybe we are just understanding the comic differently, maybe that is where the confusion is coming in at.

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Dredeuced

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#140  Edited By Dredeuced

@randomsid: You can't just pass it off as "Well, what we're saying is similar!" There is a world of difference between being so fast that the only way to describe the character is omnipresent (moving any distance in 0 seconds, IE stopped time) and saying that Gladiator is fast enough to still appear to have movement at the speeds where time dilation comes into effect. The former, as I said, is borderline omnipresence and the latter you could do without even going lightspeed. You then made up stuff about time dilation to support your point. When this made up stuff was revealed to be made up, you tried to defend it with "Comic physics are different." This is clear lying. I agree that Gladiator's normal speeds can go well in excess of lightspeed so this feat is nothing surprising. Well within Gladiator's abilities and a solid feat otherwise.

You keep repeating "You just don't understand." I understood what you said. It didn't make much sense because it was nonsense, but I understood the words and what you were trying to convey. That is why I knew it was wrong. I said you're a liar because you continued to support the wrong statement with logic that you asked people to accept in bad faith. The difference between flying through an area that is frozen in time through sheer speed and flying through an area that is moving relatively incredibly slowly is infinity. As in, the difference between lightspeed movement and moving in stopped time (even so much as one nanometer) is infinite speed -- it is an incalculable level of speed. If he were doing it through magical means or something that you could explain as a means that is not pure speed then it'd be fine -- like Odin freezing time with his magical power. He only exists in one place when the time stop ends because it is a magical effect. If Kallark were actually able to move any distance in stopped time then he could occupy the entire volume of the universe at the same time, and thus, omnipresence. (It takes zero seconds for him to get from point a to point b, he repeats in infinitely because no time ever passes and he is still in every point b in the universe at the same time)

Fast enough to keep up with Zoom is what people are throwing around. While that entire run is plagued with horrible writing, if you want to extrapolate that feat then Bart was faster than someone who is so fast that Wally West can't perceive him. I can not explicitly say how fast that is to a number but obviously scaling up from Wally and up from Zoom is astronomically fast. Wally alone is fast enough to leave people who travel the universe just as fast as Kallark like relatively (important word!) motionless statues.

edit: Time dilation occrus when you start to move really fast, approaching the speed of light (atleast, measurable time dilation, technically time dilation begins to occur at ANY increase in speed) relative to another reference frame. The "Time bubble" is what is causing everyone to relatively move super slow and therefore cause the F4 to experience time dilation because they are immune to the time bubble(and are thus moving relatively fast). For the specific effect Reed and company were experiencing they would probably need to be approaching lightspeed. This is a level of speed the Gladiator can pull off with a little effort (which explains his exhaustion), so it makes complete sense that he is able to fly around normally in said time bubble where everything is super slower (and, thus, the F4 are super fast).

You said Time Dilation was something Gladiator was flying through. You can't fly through the phenomena that occurs when an object's reference frame increases in speed. That's like saying Gladiator flew through the quadratic formula. It's a concept, not a thing! If you didn't know what time dilation is, that's fine. No one should ever be upset at someone for being wrong. It's this continual insistence that you're right backed up with faulty logic when presented with what time dilation and the feat actually are that turns it into a lie.

The funny thing is, you kept purporting that time was frozen because of time dilation, which is hilarious because time dilation can't exist without time elapsing. It doesn't work as a concept in frozen time. It is only measurable by measuring the amount of time that passes relative to two different objects from a reference frame.