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#1 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3405 posts) - - Show Bio

No morals

Both bloodlusted

Fight takes place on an uninhabitated island.

Who wins?

#2 Posted by kagetaicho (1983 posts) - - Show Bio

First Hokage. The 4th gets a lot of hype because of his teleportation and large fan base. But he is clearly weaker. He died to seal the Kyubi. Hashirama outright defeated it along with the more dangerous Madara at the same time. I don't know how I can put this point more clearly. The first is the strongest kage ever.

#3 Posted by The_Roman (3297 posts) - - Show Bio

But yeah, First Hokage isn't even in the same league. He takes a good majority.

#4 Posted by Nefarious (18363 posts) - - Show Bio

The First Hokage curbstomps Minato Namikaze. This is a massive spite thread.

#5 Posted by kagetaicho (1983 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't necessarily consider it spite, more like a fanboy battle (not accusing the OP) there is a large anime community that say Minato wins merely because he is by far the most liked Hokage. Everywhere I see this thread Minato gets a ton of undeserved hype.

#6 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3405 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nefarious
The First Hokage curbstomps Minato Namikaze. This is a massive spite thread.
Prove it. I can come up with a debate for minato
#7 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3405 posts) - - Show Bio
@kagetaicho
First Hokage. The 4th gets a lot of hype because of his teleportation and large fan base. But he is clearly weaker. He died to seal the Kyubi. Hashirama outright defeated it along with the more dangerous Madara at the same time. I don't know how I can put this point more clearly. The first is the strongest kage ever.
He died because he saved naruto's life when kyuubi tried to kill him.
#8 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3818 posts) - - Show Bio

@kagetaicho: He didn't die from just sealing Kurama, he died fro protecting Kushina and Naruto during the night of Naruto's birth, the Masked Man(not Obito) attacked because a jinchuriki is weakest when giving birth so yeah

#9 Posted by Pwok21 (2235 posts) - - Show Bio

Joekage comes in a roflstomps them both.

He has a shotgun.

#10 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3818 posts) - - Show Bio

If noone wants to make a case for Minato I'l be happy to

#11 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3405 posts) - - Show Bio
@kagetaicho
I wouldn't necessarily consider it spite, more like a fanboy battle (not accusing the OP) there is a large anime community that say Minato wins merely because he is by far the most liked Hokage. Everywhere I see this thread Minato gets a ton of undeserved hype.
Really?! Let's debate the battle
#12 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@kagetaicho: ghost_rider1 consistantly lowballs Hashirama, but I can actually see Minato taking 3/10 or maybe even 4/10 via speed, seals, Flying Thunder God, and summoning.

#13 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3818 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise: It's not that he's lowballing Hashirama, it's the fact that Kishimoto has lowballed Minato by making him seem weak(contrary to the original series) whereas he's s setting the 1st up to be overpowered

#14 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3405 posts) - - Show Bio
@KnightRise

@kagetaicho: ghost_rider1 consistantly lowballs Hashirama, but I can actually see Minato taking 3/10 or maybe even 4/10 via speed, seals, Flying Thunder God, and summoning.

I'm not low balling anyone so why don't u shut up with that. Hashirama is my favorite hokage so why would I low ball him? But hashirama isn't as powerful as most ppl think. So ill come up with a debate for minato. Hashirama is more powerful than any hokage alive right now. The fourth is already dead so he don't fit in with that. Hashirama isn't as powerful as edo tensei hashirama. Madara didn't have the rinnegan or hashirama cells when they fought. Hashirama isn't as powerful as the third hokage and that's been said and proven when the third beat him and tobirama at the same time. Ppl overestime hashirama like he is invincible when he's not. Don't ever accuse me of anything else.
#15 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@redbird3rdboywonder: Kishimoto has definitely bulked up Hashirama a lot between parts, but I think Minato capabilities improved too by part II. His natural speed and FTG are superfierce in his showings against A, B, and Tobito. But I'm just saying: using Hiruzen stalemating both Hashirama and Tobirama in part I as a testament to any of their strength and/or durability is invalidated by part II feats.

#16 Posted by Simon_the_digger (2817 posts) - - Show Bio

1st Hokage

#17 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3405 posts) - - Show Bio
@KnightRise

@redbird3rdboywonder: Kishimoto has definitely bulked up Hashirama a lot between parts, but I think Minato capabilities improved too by part II. His natural speed and FTG are superfierce in his showings against A, B, and Tobito. But I'm just saying: using Hiruzen stalemating both Hashirama and Tobirama in part I as a testament to any of their strength and/or durability is invalidated by part II feats.

Not really...go to hiruzen sarutobi at narutopedia and read up on the third hokage. Defeating madara and the nine tails is impressive indeed. But minato defeated obito and the nine tails while protecting the leaf village at the same time. Raikage and Bee couldn't even touch minato and they were working together. Raikage got serious hit on madara quite a few times. His susanoo saved him. And if he wasn't in edo tensei mode. He would have lost to the kages long ago
#18 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3818 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise said:

@redbird3rdboywonder: Kishimoto has definitely bulked up Hashirama a lot between parts, but I think Minato capabilities improved too by part II. His natural speed and FTG are superfierce in his showings against A, B, and Tobito. But I'm just saying: using Hiruzen stalemating both Hashirama and Tobirama in part I as a testament to any of their strength and/or durability is invalidated by part II feats.

I agree simply because the Hashirma and Tobimara that Orochimaru brought back where no where near as powerful as they were in life because the Edo tensei Orochimaru used was imperfect which I explained above i one of my earlier comments

#19 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (15902 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually, Based on what they have shown us, 1st is much stronger than fourth. What we have seen of fourth is awesome, but he has so much more potential. When 1st and 2nd were introduced, they were seemingly above-average ninja, somewhere near the other kages. But, as the second part revealed, kishi kept increasing the gap between madara, 1st and the rest of ninja world to the point if he hypes them a bit more, they will be considered myths like sage was (People will be like: Hokage starts from second..then third and so on. )

#20 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (15902 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Roman said:

But yeah, First Hokage isn't even in the same league. He takes a good majority.

Mind telling who this guy is? Seen him a lot of times..

#21 Posted by The_Roman (3297 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1: He's The Most Interesting Man In The World.

He's from adverts by Don Equis, and his catchphrase is 'I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer Don Equis.'

That b!tch got meme'tised.

#22 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (15902 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Roman: cool..

#23 Edited by terry2012 (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@kagetaicho: They also said The Fourth Hokage never reach his full potential. So we never know what he would had become. So going by what we see, yeah The First Hokage A.K.A Hashirama wins.

@redbird3rdboywonder: The Mask man is Obito.

@KnightRise: Mintao does not take it with summonings. He actually lose there. Hashirama knows summonings too, because his wife taught him as well.

@redbird3rdboywonder: True

#24 Posted by StMichalofWilson (3620 posts) - - Show Bio

Fourth Hokage

#25 Posted by Nefarious (18363 posts) - - Show Bio
@ghost_rider1: The First defeated Madara who was far more powerful than Minato.
#26 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3405 posts) - - Show Bio
@Nefarious
@ghost_rider1: The First defeated Madara who was far more powerful than Minato.
That's mere speculation. Madara and minato wasn't alive during the same era. Yes...madara was undoubtedly a powerful shinobi. But minato defeated obito who probably was somewhere as powerful as madara. Obito could control the nine tails just like madara. Obito was defeated in less than 2 mins. If ur talking about the madara that's beating up on the kages then that's different because that madara is much much stronger than the madara that fought hashirama.
#27 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6865 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghost_rider1:

The fight between Obito and Minato did not really determine a winner. Obito was merely hit by a rasengan and underestimated Minato's abilities. Also Obito is nowhere as strong as Madara. Its like comparing Sasuke to Itachi. Just because they're related in some way doesn't mean they are comparable.

Anyways in regards to this fight. The First Hokage wins, Hashirama is considered the closest thing to the Sage of Six Paths there is in the Naruto Universe. His powers were unprecedented and even current Madara commented that no one understood how powerful Hashirama was, aside from Madara himself, since no one was strong enough to face him. Anything that Madara has done with Hashirama's cells (like creating deathspores and a literal forest), Hashirama could do 10x better, being that he is the original.

#28 Posted by SwordandShields (712 posts) - - Show Bio

Minato can take this via speed. Flying Thunder God Technique plus Rasengan right into Hashirama's face. 6/10 for Minato.

#29 Edited by Vouile (678 posts) - - Show Bio

1st Hokage

I see him taking this...Just because he was the founding father of the Senju and the grandson of the Sage of The Six Paths and that's no joke...So I say him at least 7 or 8 out of 10 occasions.

Vouile

#30 Posted by Skaddix (3109 posts) - - Show Bio

1st He is even got an automatic healing factor.

#31 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3405 posts) - - Show Bio
@OmgOmgWtfWtf

@ghost_rider1:

The fight between Obito and Minato did not really determine a winner. Obito was merely hit by a rasengan and underestimated Minato's abilities. Also Obito is nowhere as strong as Madara. Its like comparing Sasuke to Itachi. Just because they're related in some way doesn't mean they are comparable.

Anyways in regards to this fight. The First Hokage wins, Hashirama is considered the closest thing to the Sage of Six Paths there is in the Naruto Universe. His powers were unprecedented and even current Madara commented that no one understood how powerful Hashirama was, aside from Madara himself, since no one was strong enough to face him. Anything that Madara has done with Hashirama's cells (like creating deathspores and a literal forest), Hashirama could do 10x better, being that he is the original.

Hashirama surpasses minato in terms of raw power. But minato surpasses hashirama in terms of raw speed. This is actually power vs speed battle. Minato can close the gap between him and hashirama before he can react fast enough to do anything about it. And hashirama won't be able to touch minato. If he create a forest then minato can go to an are where the spores doesn't reach. It all depends if hashirama comes anywhere near minato and gets marked by his special seal. Minato could teleport to hashirama and put a rasengan to his face before hashirama know what hit him.
#32 Posted by SlimJ87D (9258 posts) - - Show Bio

Everyone is going to say First Hokage here, but I am going with Minato. Minato has a Jitsu that many are not familiar with and that is his space time jitsu. All he has to do is throw 100s of them around and he can even have a safety one if he needs to retreat. All it takes is Minato to teleport in an opening of Hashirama and rasengan him or put an explosive tag and blow him up.

Minato is the winner for me only because he can totally escape from the battle field if he needs to recover, get supplies, etc. Or teleport close my Hashirama.

#33 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

Hype says Hashirama roflstomps, feats (most of them anyway) say it could go either way. That's all that can really be said at the minute, Hashirama battles are always ridiculous because there are so many contradictions in his character. He's better off avoided in vs threads, because his power has ranged between being beaten by an elderly Sarutobi (alongside another kage) to being the strongest shown character in the entire series (aside from the Rikudou Sennin).

#34 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6865 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghost_rider1:

I don't see how one rasengan is going to hurt Hashirama when it didn't even KO Obito. Hashirama even if he gets hurt can heal himself, Madara commented that Tsunade's healing abilities are weak compared to Hashirama's (creator of healing jutsu). Also Hashirama could easily create 100s of wood copies of himself, not to mention it would be kind of hard for Minato to dodge the level of wood jutsu he would be using. Madara's wood jutsu involve making deathspores, summoning Hashirama's dragon, and literally creating a whole forest. Hashirama can do all of that and more, plus his jutsu would be stronger than Madara's variant. Minato may have the speed advantage but it won't help vs Hashirama. He could surround himself with deathspores and then proceed to use his wood jutsu to attack Minato from afar. Minato is severely outmatched in the firepower department.

@girugamesh:

Sarutobi fight with the 1st and 2nd hokage have been retconned. It is later revealed that Orichimaru's Edo Tensai was incomplete, meaning the 1st and 2nd hokage weren't fighting at their strongest. Also judging from what Madara is able to do with Hashirama's cells, from creating an army, to making the demonic statue, wood jutsu and unlocking Rinnegan with it. Its safe to say that Hashirama's role and power levels have increased dramatically since his first introduction. I mean everyone who wants power is basically running around with Hashirama's cells in their body.

#35 Posted by SlimJ87D (9258 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@ghost_rider1:

I don't see how one rasengan is going to hurt Hashirama when it didn't even KO Obito. Hashirama even if he gets hurt can heal himself, Madara commented that Tsunade's healing abilities are weak compared to Hashirama's (creator of healing jutsu). Also Hashirama could easily create 100s of wood copies of himself, not to mention it would be kind of hard for Minato to dodge the level of wood jutsu he would be using. Madara's wood jutsu involve making deathspores, summoning Hashirama's dragon, and literally creating a whole forest. Hashirama can do all of that and more, plus his jutsu would be stronger than Madara's variant. Minato may have the speed advantage but it won't help vs Hashirama. He could surround himself with deathspores and then proceed to use his wood jutsu to attack Minato from afar. Minato is severely outmatched in the firepower department.

@girugamesh:

Sarutobi fight with the 1st and 2nd hokage have been retconned. It is later revealed that Orichimaru's Edo Tensai was incomplete, meaning the 1st and 2nd hokage weren't fighting at their strongest. Also judging from what Madara is able to do with Hashirama's cells, from creating an army, to making the demonic statue, wood jutsu and unlocking Rinnegan with it. Its safe to say that Hashirama's role and power levels have increased dramatically since his first introduction. I mean everyone who wants power is basically running around with Hashirama's cells in their body.

One half of Obitos body really even isn't his. It's from a clone of different properties, a gooey one for that matter. I don't think Hashirama's is like a venom symbiote where Obito's other part of his body is. He punched a wall and his arm fell off and they just replaced it. He probably got hit on that side witht eh resengan.

#36 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@ghost_rider1:

I don't see how one rasengan is going to hurt Hashirama when it didn't even KO Obito. Hashirama even if he gets hurt can heal himself, Madara commented that Tsunade's healing abilities are weak compared to Hashirama's (creator of healing jutsu). Also Hashirama could easily create 100s of wood copies of himself, not to mention it would be kind of hard for Minato to dodge the level of wood jutsu he would be using. Madara's wood jutsu involve making deathspores, summoning Hashirama's dragon, and literally creating a whole forest. Hashirama can do all of that and more, plus his jutsu would be stronger than Madara's variant. Minato may have the speed advantage but it won't help vs Hashirama. He could surround himself with deathspores and then proceed to use his wood jutsu to attack Minato from afar. Minato is severely outmatched in the firepower department.

@girugamesh:

Sarutobi fight with the 1st and 2nd hokage have been retconned. It is later revealed that Orichimaru's Edo Tensai was incomplete, meaning the 1st and 2nd hokage weren't fighting at their strongest. Also judging from what Madara is able to do with Hashirama's cells, from creating an army, to making the demonic statue, wood jutsu and unlocking Rinnegan with it. Its safe to say that Hashirama's role and power levels have increased dramatically since his first introduction. I mean everyone who wants power is basically running around with Hashirama's cells in their body.

I have been over this is previous threads, Orochimaru was the one who perfected the technique, it was stated explicitly by Kabuto. The Hashirama that Sarutobi fought should have been just as strong as if, say, Kabuto revived him. The only reason why they might not have been as good in that fight is that Oro sapped him of his will, so he arguably would have had less control/mastery over his techniques. Other than that there would be no difference. Face it, Kishi f*cked up on this one.

#37 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6865 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v52/c489/18.html

Kabuto says his Impure Resurrection Technique is better than the Second Hokage and Orichimaru's.

#38 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3818 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf: I already gave him a scan sowing it on another thread

#39 Posted by terry2012 (4757 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vouile: He is not the son of The Sage Of The Six Path, he is the grand child of him. The Younger Son and The Elder Son is the son Of The Sage Of The Six Path, unless Kishimoto contradict his story again.

@SlimJ87D: I didn't think of that.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf: Very good eyes.

#40 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ferdelance said:

1st Hokage

#41 Edited by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@girugamesh:

http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v52/c489/18.html

Kabuto says his Impure Resurrection Technique is better than the Second Hokage and Orichimaru's.

You're missing the point; you said that Orochimaru had an imperfect technique. This is incorrect, just because Kabuto can use it better than him does not mean the technique itself was incomplete in any way.

Orochimaru's technique was the same as Kabuto's, but Kabuto had a greater mastery over it. It's as simple as that (i.e. he used it on a far grander scale, he was able to modify those revived, etc). Thus there is still nothing to suggest the 1st would have been physically weaker in the Sarutobi fight.

#42 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6865 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh:

So you're suggesting that the 1st hokage from the fight with 3rd Hokage is the same as the one mentioned in recent chapters? Despite the huge difference in power portrayed between then and now? All the stuff Madara does with his wood jutsu, the first could much better.

#43 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@girugamesh:

So you're suggesting that the 1st hokage from the fight with 3rd Hokage is the same as the one mentioned in recent chapters? Despite the huge difference in power portrayed between then and now? All the stuff Madara does with his wood jutsu, the first could much better.

That's exactly what I've been stating, the feats clash majorly with the hype given to the character, thus the power of Hashirama is hard to determine due to the continual contradictions. Do you understand this now?

#44 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6865 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh:

I understand where you're coming from. But if Madara says that Hashirama is better than him then it kind of proves the hype. He may not have the feats, but if characters state that Hashirama is godlike. Then I'm inclined to believe so.

#45 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@girugamesh:

I understand where you're coming from. But if Madara says that Hashirama is better than him then it kind of proves the hype. He may not have the feats, but if characters state that Hashirama is godlike. Then I'm inclined to believe so.

Fair enough, but I would always go with feats above statements.

Imagine if Itachi were to one day say that he was weaker than Orochimaru, for instance. Then imagine other characters agreed upon this as well. Would it make it so?

#46 Posted by PlasticBag (1222 posts) - - Show Bio

First is beyond the Fourth. Minato had trouble fighting Obito while the First outright handled Madara with the nine tails and still defeated him.

#47 Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6865 posts) - - Show Bio

@girugamesh said:

Fair enough, but I would always go with feats above statements.

Imagine if Itachi were to one day say that he was weaker than Orochimaru, for instance. Then imagine other characters agreed upon this as well. Would it make it so?

I would always use feats above statements as well. However it really depends on the statement and context as well. I trust statements by character in regards to themselves. If a character says the other person is superior, then the statement can be taken at face value. How can a characters misjudge themselves? It would be very silly. It's usually statements made by a 3rd party which can be speculated upon. For example, if Kabuto said that Orichimaru was better than Itachi, then the statement can be speculated upon. You weigh the value of the statement and validate its claim. Feats suggest otherwise, so the statement is proven false. Statements can be false either by the ignorance of the writer or the character's inherent bias (i.e. personality, knowledge, beliefs). In the case of the example you given me (Orochimaru being better than Itachi), it would be the writer's ignorance, since evidence proves that Itachi is better than Orichimaru.

Sorry the for long winded response, this is the only way I know how to explain this :/

#48 Posted by girugamesh (439 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

@girugamesh said:

Fair enough, but I would always go with feats above statements.

Imagine if Itachi were to one day say that he was weaker than Orochimaru, for instance. Then imagine other characters agreed upon this as well. Would it make it so?

I would always use feats above statements as well. However it really depends on the statement and context as well. I trust statements by character in regards to themselves. If a character says the other person is superior, then the statement can be taken at face value. How can a characters misjudge themselves? It would be very silly. It's usually statements made by a 3rd party which can be speculated upon. For example, if Kabuto said that Orichimaru was better than Itachi, then the statement can be speculated upon. You weigh the value of the statement and validate its claim. Feats suggest otherwise, so the statement is proven false. Statements can be false either by the ignorance of the writer or the character's inherent bias (i.e. personality, knowledge, beliefs). In the case of the example you given me (Orochimaru being better than Itachi), it would be the writer's ignorance, since evidence proves that Itachi is better than Orichimaru.

Sorry the for long winded response, this is the only way I know how to explain this :/

Don't worry about it, it wasn't a case of TL;DR :)

But even so, I would say the contradiction still stands firm; using your logic, I guess we could say it is a huge case of writer's ignorance. He has Madara admitting himself to be weaker than Hashi and yet his feats that were actually shown demonstrate nothing to support this.

Either way, for now I could give no clear answer on the outcome of this fight, though I would lean towards the 1st despite the ambiguity (considering the strength of the wood-style Madara is using).

#49 Posted by Relentless1 (233 posts) - - Show Bio

@kagetaicho said:

First Hokage. The 4th gets a lot of hype because of his teleportation and large fan base. But he is clearly weaker. He died to seal the Kyubi. Hashirama outright defeated it along with the more dangerous Madara at the same time. I don't know how I can put this point more clearly. The first is the strongest kage ever.
#50 Posted by kagetaicho (1983 posts) - - Show Bio

Funny I was just reading my inbox of yesterday's replies about this thread. What I said seems correct. He's still getting defended even though he is clearly weaker. By he I mean Minato.