#1 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Finals HW &LW Team-up Tournament jsav777 VS Esquire

jsav777-Gladiator & Ms.Marvel

Esquire-Ultraman & Booster Gold

RULES

  • You win by debating for your team.
  • No BFR
  • Fight to death or KO
  • Fight takes place on Merged Marvel & DC earth ( City )
  • If debate comes to a standstill, users are allowed to vote
  • Pre-Flashpoint DC characters
  • Current Marvel characters
  • Make good cases
  • No Prep
  • Standard Gear
  • Morals Off

BEGIN !

#2 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

My team has really one major advantage: Booster Gold is incredibly durable for a low weight in this tourney. He has the durability to tank hits from Doomsday, Trigon, Guy Gardner, and lots more. So he can go up against Gladiator and not get squished.

Miss Marvel is also durable, but her biggest advantage is her ability to absorb energy. Unfortunately for her, Ultraman won't use his heat vision, he'll simply speed-blitz her. He's done this to Superman, so it's both in-character and in his power set. He's also essentially a bully, so he'll naturally go for the weaker character rather than the one who he'd have to work in order to beat. Miss Marvel will get beat down against a character with Superman-level strength and speed, who isn't afraid to blitz.

Then it's Gladiator vs Booster and Ultraman, and Gladiator simply doesn't have the feats to match up against someone who's literally Superman-level. Especially with Booster adding his own considerable attack power.

#3 Posted by jsav777 (658 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Good points, but you forget the fact that Gladiator could also amp up Ms Marvel with heat vision himself. His vision is stated as powerful as a star so that could probably force Ms. Marvel into Binary.

Binary I know isn't allowed at the start, but when Ms Marvel absorbs enough she can naturally transform. Once that happens, my team has a solid advantage. Even if she doesn't she'll be far more powerful than before.

Also what has Ultraman himself actually done because having Superman's power's doesn't mean he's as good. Gladiator has very good showings against much more powerful opponents. He's matched eyebeams with Tyrant, a near Galactus level opponent.

He's also stated by Reed Richards as 100 times the speed of light, which I believe is faster than Superman as well

Ms Marvel amped up will be able to mess with Booster Gold though. She is much more powerful when amped.

If he has his shields up, he's not really contributing to the fight and Glads and Marvel can tag team Ultraman. If he doesn't, Marvel should be able to compete with him. Also I have to look a little more, but couldn't Ms Marvel just absorb the energy Booster's Force Fields are made of or Ultraman's Solar Energy?

#4 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsav777: I'm super busy right now, so I won't be able to get a response up until probably Tuesday. Sorry for the inconvenience.

#5 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump?

#6 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsav777 Sorry it's been so long. I've been really busy. :/

Anyway:

Good points, but you forget the fact that Gladiator could also amp up Ms Marvel with heat vision himself. His vision is stated as powerful as a star so that could probably force Ms. Marvel into Binary.

When she was Binary, Ms Marvel had the power of a White Hole. That's far above a star, and Gladiator will only have an instant to power her up before Ultraman's blitz, anyway. She might be a little stronger than usual, but she's still majorly outclassed in physicals.

Also what has Ultraman himself actually done because having Superman's power's doesn't mean he's as good.

He beat Superman straight up in Syndicate Rules and they fought evenly in Adventures of Superman. Superman has beaten him, too, but he's got good showings against Superman. Superman has stated on panel that he's more skilled than Ultraman, but that would almost necessitate Ultraman having better physicals in order to fight evenly with Supes. Ultraman may not be quite as good as Supes, but he's certainly good enough here.

Gladiator has very good showings against much more powerful opponents. He's matched eyebeams with Tyrant, a near Galactus level opponent.

He has that pesky issue with confidence, though. When he finds himself unable to get through Booster's shields and also finds himself without an ally facing two opponents, one of whom who's arguably more powerful than he is, I don't think his confidence will be all that high, which makes him even more vulnerable.

He's also stated by Reed Richards as 100 times the speed of light, which I believe is faster than Superman as well

He's only showed that kind of speed once, and that was ~30 years ago. It's also travel speed, not combat speed, so it won't make much of a difference here.

Ms Marvel amped up will be able to mess with Booster Gold though. She is much more powerful when amped.

Booster tanked repeated blows from Doomsday, who was strong enough to physically beat down Superman. He's far stronger than Ms Marvel has a hope of being in this match, but Booster was able to hold up against him. I don't see Marvel having much success against him.

If he has his shields up, he's not really contributing to the fight and Glads and Marvel can tag team Ultraman.

That's not how Booster's forcefield works. It usually surrounds him like a second skin, and he always has it up in combat. Pretty much all of his combat feats are with his forcefield up, so it doesn't at all hamper him from fighting offensively. He had his field up while he was attacking Doomsday, hence his not dying, and he was still able to do damage. Read the scan:

And he could also use his forcefield to incapacitate Gladiator, like he's done to Guy Gardner and Doomsday.

This will give Ultraman plenty of time to kill Ms Marvel, and then Gladiator will be the one facing a double team.

Also I have to look a little more, but couldn't Ms Marvel just absorb the energy Booster's Force Fields are made of or Ultraman's Solar Energy?

I'm not a Ms Marvel expert, but I've never seen her absorb anything like that. Energy blasts if Booster or Ultraman were to use those, but I've never seen anyone drain energy from a Kryptonian (also, Ultraman gets his powers from Anti-Kryptonite, not the Sun). Do you have any feats to indicate that this would be a viable tactic for Marvel?

#7 Posted by jsav777 (658 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire:

He has that pesky issue with confidence, though. When he finds himself unable to get through Booster's shields and also finds himself without an ally facing two opponents, one of whom who's arguably more powerful than he is, I don't think his confidence will be all that high, which makes him even more vulnerable.

At the first round of the tournament jeanroygrant said that his confidence is fixed at its highest for this fight, so this shouldn't really be an issue.

I'm not a Ms Marvel expert, but I've never seen her absorb anything like that. Energy blasts if Booster or Ultraman were to use those, but I've never seen anyone drain energy from a Kryptonian (also, Ultraman gets his powers from Anti-Kryptonite, not the Sun). Do you have any feats to indicate that this would be a viable tactic for Marvel?

I haven't seen Ms Marvel do it, but Thor, who also has energy absorption, has absorbed Kang's field. I don't see any reason why Ms. Marvel couldn't also absorb a force field, it is energy after all and should be right up her alley.

Ah, never knew he had a different power source. As for Anti-Kriptonite, I have no idea if she can absorb it. In Binary, I don't see why not, but just normal, there's no way to know.

Also don't forget Gladiator's durability. I really don't know much about Ultraman, but Gladiator has consistently shown himself to compete with even higher level characters such as Tyrant, Vulcan, Silver Surfer and a whole group of Nova Corp members.

Ms Marvel's absorption of Gold's fields will give her a considerable amp, as will Gladiator's heat vision. If she could knock out Sentry after only absorbing a nuke, imagine what she could do with even more power. Without his shields, Gold isn't really much of a factor, vulnerable to speedblitz and powerful attacks. Then it's two on one and my team should take this without too much trouble.

#8 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsav777 said:

I haven't seen Ms Marvel do it, but Thor, who also has energy absorption, has absorbed Kang's field. I don't see any reason why Ms. Marvel couldn't also absorb a force field, it is energy after all and should be right up her alley.

I suppose that's plausible, then. But I still maintain that Ultraman will blitz her before she could get to Booster's forcefield.

Also don't forget Gladiator's durability. I really don't know much about Ultraman, but Gladiator has consistently shown himself to compete with even higher level characters such as Tyrant, Vulcan, Silver Surfer and a whole group of Nova Corp members.

Tyrant pretty much beat him down while fighting Thor and Silver Surfer at the same time. But he does have very impressive durability. Ultraman doesn't have that many appearances, unfortunately. He's demonstrated that he's got durability at Superman levels, but most of his feats are against Superman. He's been able to repeatedly tank poundings from Clark, which is a very solid durability showing.

As for offensive feats, he's smacked around Etrigan,

Ms Marvel's absorption of Gold's fields will give her a considerable amp, as will Gladiator's heat vision. If she could knock out Sentry after only absorbing a nuke, imagine what she could do with even more power.

This scan is from Trinity, which is non-canon. I think it's still an accurate description of Ultraman's powers, though.

If his vision drains power, then Ms Marvel will go down even quicker against him. Then it's two-on-one against Gladiator. Booster's forcefield has gone through the core of a star without breaking, so Gladiator will be hard-pressed to even hurt him, and he has some impressive strength to help Ultraman in putting Gladiator down.

#9 Edited by jsav777 (658 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire said:

@jsav777 said:

Also don't forget Gladiator's durability. I really don't know much about Ultraman, but Gladiator has consistently shown himself to compete with even higher level characters such as Tyrant, Vulcan, Silver Surfer and a whole group of Nova Corp members.

Tyrant pretty much beat him down while fighting Thor and Silver Surfer at the same time. But he does have very impressive durability. Ultraman doesn't have that many appearances, unfortunately. He's demonstrated that he's got durability at Superman levels, but most of his feats are against Superman. He's been able to repeatedly tank poundings from Clark, which is a very solid durability showing.

As for offensive feats, he's smacked around Etrigan,

But remember that Tyrant is a whole other level than Clark and Etrigan, he's a little lower than Galactus. Even though Glads got beat around, he was able to block eyebeams with his own, which itself is impressive, but also survived the blast and still stood. Surviving at all is still an extremely good durability feat, but he went down while still showing the power of his heat vision as well.

Also although Ultraman can be considered Superman's equal in power, he's not nearly as tactically intelligent or mentally stable, a weakness Gladiator would likely exploit. Gladiator has shown a of skill and tactics to gain an edge over superior opponents, like in his fight with Silver Surfer, for example.

This scan is from Trinity, which is non-canon. I think it's still an accurate description of Ultraman's powers, though.

If his vision drains power, then Ms Marvel will go down even quicker against him. Then it's two-on-one against Gladiator. Booster's forcefield has gone through the core of a star without breaking, so Gladiator will be hard-pressed to even hurt him, and he has some impressive strength to help Ultraman in putting Gladiator down.

But the problem is that's a non-canon feat so I don't think it should count, unless he demonstrated that ability elsewhere.

So I think my point still stands that Ms Marvel will absorb Booster Gold's force fields then defeat him. Gladiator is the same speed, if not faster than Ultraman, so he can intercept Ultraman if he blitzes while Ms Marvel attacks Gold. From there the two proceed to take on Ultraman. Gladiator's tactical superiority and near equal stats coupled with a tag-team from an amped up Ms. Marvel means that my team has a solid advantage that should give them the win.

#10 Posted by jsav777 (658 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe we can open up voting so this tournament can be wrapped up? I'm pretty much done my argument unless has more to add.

#11 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsav777 said:

Maybe we can open up voting so this tournament can be wrapped up? I'm pretty much done my argument unless has more to add.

Yeah.

#12 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Let the voting begin.

#13 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsav777

My only problem with your strategy is that Gladiator hasn't really demonstrated the combat speed to intercept someone who can blitz Superman. I think it comes down to whether or not Ms Marvel can take down Booster before Ultraman takes down Ms Marvel. Thanks to his speed, I'm leaning towards Ultraman.

Great debate, and best of luck!

#14 Posted by jsav777 (658 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: Thanks, you as well

#15 Posted by tomlikesfries (4903 posts) - - Show Bio

Leaning towards Esquire. Jsav777 also did a pretty sweet job though.

#16 Posted by jsav777 (658 posts) - - Show Bio

BUMMMPP

#17 Posted by marvelbeast (602 posts) - - Show Bio

All go with @jsav777

#18 Posted by dondave (38904 posts) - - Show Bio

Both had a solid debate but I give this to @jsav777:

#19 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

1 for Esquire, 2 for jsav777!!

If Esquire gets 2 more votes he wins, if jsav777 gets one more he wins.

#20 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

#21 Posted by jsav777 (658 posts) - - Show Bio

BUMP

#22 Posted by cosmicallyaware1 (4833 posts) - - Show Bio

i'm goin with Esquire on thsi one......but barely. I like other team's characters better though......

#23 Posted by Stompa (1336 posts) - - Show Bio

I give it to Esquire as well but very good points from both.

#24 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Esquire wins the tournament with a 4-2 voting poll. Good job, too both of you. The tournament went better than expected! Also thanks for all the people who perticapted in this tournament, and hope you will be there when the Street Leveler tourament starts. if your currently in the one that's going on, good luck!