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#1 Posted by Gottheit (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

Squall Leonhart

vs.

Cloud Strife

#2 Posted by Boken (7756 posts) - - Show Bio

squall he's leon now right

#3 Posted by zero edge (3696 posts) - - Show Bio

Squall can shoot a bullet as he's slashing someone.

#4 Posted by Boken (7756 posts) - - Show Bio

in kingdom hearts leon is squal right. he has a big ass sowrd that's part gun right

#5 Posted by Cryo-Wolf (12662 posts) - - Show Bio

Boken says:

"in kingdom hearts leon is squal right. he has a big ass sowrd that's part gun right"

you get a gold star.

#6 Posted by Cryo-Wolf (12662 posts) - - Show Bio

and his name isn't squal in KH, that's just what yuffie calls him. everyone else calls him Leon.

#7 Posted by Boken (7756 posts) - - Show Bio

i was saying now he's leon. he was called squall in final fantasy

#8 Posted by Sparda (15795 posts) - - Show Bio

That's his real name. If you read his profile, it says he changed it to escape his past, or something. Anyway, I'll go with Leon. Yeah, Renzokuken follewed by Lionheart would annihilate Cloud. This is basically what it is:

9999 damage, 9999 damage, 9999 damage, 9999 damage, 9999 damage, 9999 damage, 9999 damage, 9999 damage, 9999 damage, 9999 damage, 9999 damage, 9999 damage. I'm not even half-way. He hits the enemy about fifty times and-.......oh wait. In FFVIII the damage went up to 99999.......yeah, Clouds screwed.

#9 Posted by Eternal Chaos (22990 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn. Leon.

#10 Posted by Gottheit (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

Allright, if it was to the death, Squall would pick the victory up. But what if it were just a bout of friendly fencing, and not a fight to the death?

#11 Edited by OverLordArhas (7790 posts) - - Show Bio

I know it is a 6 year old thread.

Going with Cloud.

Online
#12 Posted by LinkXV1 (490 posts) - - Show Bio
#13 Edited by OverLordArhas (7790 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#14 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Squall in a good one. Yeah I said it.

#15 Posted by OverLordArhas (7790 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#16 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

Either.

#17 Edited by Soothing_Sounds (1718 posts) - - Show Bio

All i know is that Squal has a GUNSWORD, that's super dope. Of course, Cloud's hair defies gravity, and that may come into play here, but i think Leon has what it takes to outfire him.

#18 Edited by HtG (131 posts) - - Show Bio

First strike should win. Materia system (pre-emptive, speed+) lends itself better to getting a first strike than junctioning (speed, luck), but autosummons (gilgamesh, and phoenix) work in Squalls favor. Still giving it to Cloud, as stacked pre-emptive materia gives a 33% chance of first strike and I don't think the odds of gilgamesh with a good weapon or phoenix are anywhere near that even with maxed luck.

#19 Posted by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio
@htg said:

First strike should win. Materia system (pre-emptive, speed+) lends itself better to getting a first strike than junctioning (speed, luck), but autosummons (gilgamesh, and phoenix) work in Squalls favor. Still giving it to Cloud, as stacked pre-emptive materia gives a 33% chance of first strike and I don't think the odds of gilgamesh with a good weapon or phoenix are anywhere near that even with maxed luck.

First strike is pointless. Cloud can't OTK and Squall has his limit break which triggers at low health.

In Dissidia Squall shows no problem with the possibility of having to face two villains (each more powerful than Cloud) at the same time, he beats WOL who is supposed to be the greatest swordsman alive, and he casually disposes of Ultimecia when she tried to talk her nonsense.

Cloud walks about with his bros a little bit, gets trolled by Sephiroth, gets slapped aside by Garland, is a punching bag for Terra, and finally beats a Sephiroth who is as always holding back (who Squall is shown fighting easily).

Verdict: Squall wastes Cloud with ease. Give Cloud his gang and he might actually stand a chance.

#20 Posted by Wittywally (85 posts) - - Show Bio

@htg: I don't think that they'll do 9999 damage with every hit. The strongest GF in ff8(griever) only does like 3k? While Eden can go as high as 80k. The characters hp is only limited to 9999, obviously they can't make Griever do damage far exceeding your hp, otherwise whats the point of leveling up if the enemy can 1hit you with every move.

I think squalls edges cloud when it comes to gameplay. You can junction and max out str, hp, vit, spr and boost your luck, hit and speed to the point that there's almost no cooldown between your attacks and you can still add haste. Ff7 limit break needs to be charged while in ff8 you can cast aura then spam the lmit breaks. Equipping magic/summon materias in ff7 reduces % of either your hp/str and clouds final weapons damage depends in his hp. The lower his hp is, the lower the damage the ultima weapon does. squall doesn't have that kind of restriction, he can equip any gf/spells and his weapon damage output isn't dependent on his hp. Renzokuken+lionheart damage output is also higher than omnislash plus it's spammable.

you can also max out hp, str vit and spr without junctions, but it's extremely time consuming.

Hopefully we can have a ff7 buff contribute here since I didn't play ff7 as extensively as ff8.

#21 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia: pretty skewed retelling of Dissidia. Squall doesn't last that long against Sephiroth before getting swatted and Cloud gets right back up from being swatted from Garland.

#22 Posted by OverLordArhas (7790 posts) - - Show Bio

@htg: I don't think that they'll do 9999 damage with every hit. The strongest GF in ff8(griever) only does like 3k? While Eden can go as high as 80k. The characters hp is only limited to 9999, obviously they can't make Griever do damage far exceeding your hp, otherwise whats the point of leveling up if the enemy can 1hit you with every move.

I think squalls edges cloud when it comes to gameplay. You can junction and max out str, hp, vit, spr and boost your luck, hit and speed to the point that there's almost no cooldown between your attacks and you can still add haste. Ff7 limit break needs to be charged while in ff8 you can cast aura then spam the lmit breaks. Equipping magic/summon materias in ff7 reduces % of either your hp/str and clouds final weapons damage depends in his hp. The lower his hp is, the lower the damage the ultima weapon does. squall doesn't have that kind of restriction, he can equip any gf/spells and his weapon damage output isn't dependent on his hp. Renzokuken+lionheart damage output is also higher than omnislash plus it's spammable.

you can also max out hp, str vit and spr without junctions, but it's extremely time consuming.

Hopefully we can have a ff7 buff contribute here since I didn't play ff7 as extensively as ff8.

Say no more, @floopay

One note though, using magic decrease your stat if that magic is junctioned somewhere. FF8 FMV does not put Squall near Cloud level in AC.

If gameplay is involve, Blasting Zone is pretty wicked but takes too long to charge and fated circle looks lame but the AoE effect is OK.

Online
#23 Edited by HtG (131 posts) - - Show Bio
#24 Posted by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

@rozalia: pretty skewed retelling of Dissidia. Squall doesn't last that long against Sephiroth before getting swatted and Cloud gets right back up from being swatted from Garland.

Sephiroth does his sword beam attack and it then switches to another fight so hardly being swatted. Garland backhanding Cloud like he was his red headed stepchild shows he isn't on Garlands or WOL's lewel.
Squall was confident of soloing both Garland and Ultimecia together and he was the only one to defeat WOL. I know in the sequal Lightning beat WOL too but WOL was weakened (doubting himself) and Lightning isn't a weakling either.

Squall's only canon loss is being backstabbed by Kain (hardly counts) while Cloud has losses littered all over the place. Squall treating Ultimecia like an annoyance while Cloud is played around by Sephiroth reinforces the strength difference.

@htg said:

@wittywally: KotR summon in FF7 hits max 9999x13 for a total of 129,987 damage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj3AE5mCI7k. But in both FF7 and FF8 games getting characters consistently hitting 9999 is pretty easy. Zell's limit break can hit into the millions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXWB5jQ_nuY. Damage is nowhere near proportional to health in either game, which is why I'd lean towards saying OTK for either.

Only canon materia Cloud has is Bolt and Ice so no KotR summon. Also people forget by Squall has his own version of preemptive strike too.

#25 Edited by tparks (5000 posts) - - Show Bio

Cloud=SOLDIER Reject

Squall=Leader of Elite Mercenary Army

#26 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

Cloud=SOLDIER Reject

Squall=Leader of Elite Mercenary Army

Cloud wasn't a SOLDIER reject at all... He was selected for a program far greater than SOLDIER and, of the two participants, received greater enhancements. So Cloud being selected for one of the most elite projects in all of SHINRA, which was far superior to SeeD in every capacity, does not make him a SOLDIER Reject.

Additionally, Cloud would curbstomp Squall in all scenarios, including Squall with all his best magic and equipment vs. Cloud with only a Buster Sword, or even Cloud with no weapons.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#27 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia said:

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

@rozalia: pretty skewed retelling of Dissidia. Squall doesn't last that long against Sephiroth before getting swatted and Cloud gets right back up from being swatted from Garland.

Sephiroth does his sword beam attack and it then switches to another fight so hardly being swatted. Garland backhanding Cloud like he was his red headed stepchild shows he isn't on Garlands or WOL's lewel.

Squall was confident of soloing both Garland and Ultimecia together and he was the only one to defeat WOL. I know in the sequal Lightning beat WOL too but WOL was weakened (doubting himself) and Lightning isn't a weakling either.

Squall's only canon loss is being backstabbed by Kain (hardly counts) while Cloud has losses littered all over the place. Squall treating Ultimecia like an annoyance while Cloud is played around by Sephiroth reinforces the strength difference.

@htg said:

@wittywally: KotR summon in FF7 hits max 9999x13 for a total of 129,987 damage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj3AE5mCI7k. But in both FF7 and FF8 games getting characters consistently hitting 9999 is pretty easy. Zell's limit break can hit into the millions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXWB5jQ_nuY. Damage is nowhere near proportional to health in either game, which is why I'd lean towards saying OTK for either.

Only canon materia Cloud has is Bolt and Ice so no KotR summon. Also people forget by Squall has his own version of preemptive strike too.

Canon materia is Bahamut, Bahamut SIN, Bahamut FURY, Minerva, Choco/Mog, Odin, Ifrit, Fire, Lightning, Element, Ice, Haste, Cure, Heal, Independent (all of them), Light (only shown in cutscenes), Shield (only shown in cutscenes), Black, Holy (White), Earth (potentially), Blind, and quite a few others. So that statement isn't really true either.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#28 Edited by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay said:

@tparks said:

Cloud=SOLDIER Reject

Squall=Leader of Elite Mercenary Army

Cloud wasn't a SOLDIER reject at all... He was selected for a program far greater than SOLDIER and, of the two participants, received greater enhancements. So Cloud being selected for one of the most elite projects in all of SHINRA, which was far superior to SeeD in every capacity, does not make him a SOLDIER Reject.

Additionally, Cloud would curbstomp Squall in all scenarios, including Squall with all his best magic and equipment vs. Cloud with only a Buster Sword, or even Cloud with no weapons.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Ridiculous. Cloud failed to get into SOLDIER and him being in the project that creates the black hooded guys was because Shinra had his body and Hojo wanted to use it as he defeated Sephiroth. SeeDs are enhanced to the point that 3 trainees are expected to be equivalent to an army. Squall himself is the best of best and the legendary hero who Ultimecia fears.

@floopay said:

@rozalia said:

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

@rozalia: pretty skewed retelling of Dissidia. Squall doesn't last that long against Sephiroth before getting swatted and Cloud gets right back up from being swatted from Garland.

Sephiroth does his sword beam attack and it then switches to another fight so hardly being swatted. Garland backhanding Cloud like he was his red headed stepchild shows he isn't on Garlands or WOL's lewel.

Squall was confident of soloing both Garland and Ultimecia together and he was the only one to defeat WOL. I know in the sequal Lightning beat WOL too but WOL was weakened (doubting himself) and Lightning isn't a weakling either.

Squall's only canon loss is being backstabbed by Kain (hardly counts) while Cloud has losses littered all over the place. Squall treating Ultimecia like an annoyance while Cloud is played around by Sephiroth reinforces the strength difference.

@htg said:

@wittywally: KotR summon in FF7 hits max 9999x13 for a total of 129,987 damage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj3AE5mCI7k. But in both FF7 and FF8 games getting characters consistently hitting 9999 is pretty easy. Zell's limit break can hit into the millions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXWB5jQ_nuY. Damage is nowhere near proportional to health in either game, which is why I'd lean towards saying OTK for either.

Only canon materia Cloud has is Bolt and Ice so no KotR summon. Also people forget by Squall has his own version of preemptive strike too.

Canon materia is Bahamut, Bahamut SIN, Bahamut FURY, Minerva, Choco/Mog, Odin, Ifrit, Fire, Lightning, Element, Ice, Haste, Cure, Heal, Independent (all of them), Light (only shown in cutscenes), Shield (only shown in cutscenes), Black, Holy (White), Earth (potentially), Blind, and quite a few others. So that statement isn't really true either.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Show me the canon source showing Cloud using all that materia please. The only materia that I believe are canon to him are:

Ice: Starts with it.
Bolt: Starts with it.
Restore: Given to him by Barret.
Shiva: Personally given to him by the girl he saves.

He also has the black materia also for a time but beyond the ones I've listed he doesn't have anything canon saying he has all those materia you're listed. Bahamut was in that box but their is nothing indicting its his, it could be Tifa's for all we know.

#29 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia: I can provide several actually. None of him actually using it, but I can show several instances proving that he has it...

From:

On the Way to a Smile: Case of Yuffie

Chapter 1:

The end tells that the party does, in fact, have a ton of materia.

The Forgotten City. At a small lake where Aerith had lost her life and saw everyone off, Yuffie and the others had returned once again to let her know that the fight against Sephiroth was over. They all stood silently around the lake’s altar. None of them spoke but each of them were speaking to Aerith with their own words.

“Bye.”

It was Vincent’s low voice. By the time Yuffie turned round to face him, his red mantle was already flailing behind him. What was with him, thought Yuffie. Is that the way he was going to part with us?

“Hold it- Hooold it!!”

She cried out hurrying after him.

“How can you part with us just like that? We’re all war buddies you know.”

Her protesting didn’t stop him. She ran ahead and the two of them stood face to face. He looked as if he was staring at a point far into the distance. Yuffie didn’t know what he was thinking or what was going through his mind but his gaze was very powerful. She stepped back immediately knowing that she couldn’t stop him.

“Take care,” Vincent said as he passed her. Yuffie never expected such words from him and let go of what just happened as she felt his heart for the first time.

Cloud, Tifa, Barret, Cid and Red XIII were watching them.

“Looks like he has somewhere to go,” reported Yuffie as she returned to her comrades.

“To his woman probably. Time I got going too,” said Cid.

“Yeah, you’re right. Same for me,” agreed Barret.

Everyone has someone they want to go see, thought Yuffie. She understood but couldn’t hold her feelings in.

“You know… You guys sure are taking this lightly.”

“It just means we know we can always meet again,” said Cid as he started to walk off. Cloud and Tifa nodded. Even Red XIII agreed too.Red XIII’s just forcing himself along, thought Yuffie.

“Yeah.”

As she began to feel the same way they did, she accepted what was about to happen.

“Lets go.”

Cloud and Tifa began to walk off. Yeah. Once we leave this place, it really is goodbye for us all, thought Yuffie. But that’s fine. I’ll enjoy our parting with all the energy I have.

“Hey wait!”

Barret suddenly raised his voice. Man, this parting’s ruined. That’s why I don’t like the old man. She looked over at him and saw him removing the materia from his prosthetic arm, handing it over to Cloud.

“What do we do with this?”

“Hey wait!”

Realizing she had forgotten something very important, Yuffie raised her voice. She had almost forgotten the whole purpose of her journey.

“Can I have all the- No, I mean can I just have half of all the materia? I’ll bring them back to Wutai with me and keep them in safe custody. Well, I’ll use them too maybe. Just a little.”

The eyes of all her comrades gathered on her. She loved to be the center of attention but this time she felt a little guilty. She continued to speak in an effort to hide that guiltiness.

“I was in the middle of hunting for materia you know. I got close to you all because I was following my instincts as a materia hunter. The materia you all had was just too tempting.”

Shinra’s research, technology and knowledge of the planet’s life allowed them to bestow “powers” into the materia Cloud and his party possessed that wasn’t possible to produce naturally.

“To be honest with you all, I didn’t really know what you were all after or know much about your past. Even now, I think it’s the same. But I fought with you all didn’t I? And it wasn’t because of the materia. I just wanted to be of use, even if I wasn’t much. We’re friends now. Come on, think about it. How many times have I saved you all from pinches?”

After she finished, Yuffie thought, Damn. There’s no truth to that part.

“Yeah, you helped us many times,” said Tifa.

Yuffie was confused.

“You’re an ideal child, so cheery and strong.”

“Huh!?”

Yuffie was surprised and waited for Tifa to continue. But Tifa just smiled and stayed silent.

“Are you serious?” Yuffie asked without thinking.

“Mmhmm,” nodded Tifa immediately.

“Eheheh.”

Yuffie thought about what she just heard as she blushed. She was surprised that she just might be getting the materia with no objections.

“What do you think, Barret?”

Cloud had suddenly turned round to ask him. Why the hell are you asking Barret for? Yuffie thought but remained silent.

“Hmmmm—” mused Barret. “It’s true that Yuffie’s a good friend of ours. But it’s a whole different matter when it comes to materia, isn’t it?”

“No it isn’t! It’s the same. The same! I know it may be all over now that we’ve defeated Sephiroth but, I have a great dream and that’s to restore Wutai. To do that, having materia is crucial.”

“Restoration eh—”

This time it was Cid who piped in. Shut up old man! Yuffie glared at him.

“If that’s what you need it for, isn’t Midgar much worse off?”

“You’re right.”

After agreeing with Cid, Cloud fell in thought.

“Hey, Yuffie. How about this? We’ll give you all the materia.”

“Alright!”

“But I keep it in safe custody.”

“Er— Are you trying to trick a child here! ”

Thinking she was being made a fool, she stood up tall in protest.

“You got it all wrong. Most of our materia are used for battle right? It really won’t be of much use for Wutai. So we’ll just share the ones that will be of use in healing and I’ll keep the rest. I think I’m the one that’s the most experienced when it comes to dangerous materia.”

“It’s true we don’t need any equipment for battles any more but—”

“Yeah?”

“Even if we can’t use them, we’ll feel much more at ease with them won’t we?”

“Then lets do this. You return to Wutai but if you feel uneasy without materia then contact me. We’ll think about it again then.”

Cloud was speaking in a gentle tone but in the end, his decision to keep the materia was clear to Yuffie. And just as he said, even if Wutai had a lot of materia with immeasurable destructive power, they may not be of much use. Times have changed. Even Yuffie understood that.

“Fine. You be sure to take good care of my materia.”

* * *

Advent Children:

3:50 - End - You see a big case of materia, this is all the materia they were talking about in On the Way to a Smile.

All the materia used by the Remnants of Sephiroth were from Cloud's party. In fact, that's the only reason Cloud and their party don't use materia during the movie, because the Remnants took it all and they all agreed not to use any because it's too dangerous. Which includes Lightning, Haste (used by multiple people, but only by Loz prior to the stealing of materia, but later by Yazoo after the acquisition of materia), Bahamut, and Fire.

This proves they do have at least that materia.

Independent materia was shown at the end of Final Fantasy 7, when Loz and Yazoo are firing blasts at Cloud, you can see purple materia glowing in their bodies.

Element was shown in the instances of Sephiroth actually using it, and I believe Yazoo uses it at one point.

Restore, and Heal materia are used throughout On the Way to a Smile - Case of Yuffie. Light materia is used by Yuffie in Dirge of Cerberus.

Shield Materia is used by several characters throughout Dirge of Cerberus.

As for your logic:

Ifrit: After the first Jenova.

Bahamut: Gained after defeating the dragon in the Temple of the Ancients.

Odin: Acquired from the Shinra Mansion safe.

Ultima: Gained after stopping the train

Steal: From when you acquire Yuffie.

I can name a dozen or more other instances proving they did, in fact, have dozens of pieces of materia in their possession. And Cloud was accepted as the party leader and was in charge of the materia, hence why he was the one put in charge of watching over it (with Tifa).

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#30 Posted by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't think you understand. If Cloud doesn't have the materia to start with or personally acquire the materia in a plot scene then it simply doesn't count as canon.

Ifrit: After the first Jenova.

Bahamut: Gained after defeating the dragon in the Temple of the Ancients.

Odin: Acquired from the Shinra Mansion safe.

Ultima: Gained after stopping the train

Steal: From when you acquire Yuffie.

Ifrit: Doesn't have to be picked up.
Bahamut: Cloud doesn't have a special claim to it.
Odin: Doesn't have to be picked up either.
Ultima: Its unknown if stopping or failing to fail the train is the real canon outcome. Regardless it can easily be missed and Cloud doesn't have a special claim on it.
Steal: ...Then it belongs to Yuffie like how manipulate belongs to Cait Sith.

The box materia are irrelevant. Its the parties materia (thus not all Cloud's) and beyond a few we don't know what they even are. They could be anything.

The same goes for Squall. He personally owns Shiva, Quetzalcoatl, Ifrit because he has a claim on them but the other party members don't have summons as they don't have claims on any of them.

#31 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia said:

Don't think you understand. If Cloud doesn't have the materia to start with or personally acquire the materia in a plot scene then it simply doesn't count as canon.

Ifrit: After the first Jenova.

Bahamut: Gained after defeating the dragon in the Temple of the Ancients.

Odin: Acquired from the Shinra Mansion safe.

Ultima: Gained after stopping the train

Steal: From when you acquire Yuffie.

Ifrit: Doesn't have to be picked up.

Bahamut: Cloud doesn't have a special claim to it.

Odin: Doesn't have to be picked up either.

Ultima: Its unknown if stopping or failing to fail the train is the real canon outcome. Regardless it can easily be missed and Cloud doesn't have a special claim on it.

Steal: ...Then it belongs to Yuffie like how manipulate belongs to Cait Sith.

The box materia are irrelevant. Its the parties materia (thus not all Cloud's) and beyond a few we don't know what they even are. They could be anything.

The same goes for Squall. He personally owns Shiva, Quetzalcoatl, Ifrit because he has a claim on them but the other party members don't have summons as they don't have claims on any of them.

Cloud is the party leader, and in charge of the materia (despite all of it technically being Yuffie's). It was stated in the chapter I provided. I don't see why he wouldn't be allowed access to something he has full access to, that's ridiculous...

However, Cloud doesn't even need materia to whoop Squall, just give him a Buster Sword and he'll whoop him. Give him his Fushion Sword and it's a stomp.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#32 Posted by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

You can't name what all that materia and being party leader doesn't give Cloud a claim to it either. Do the other party members get a claim also? Or not at all? You don't give them a claim and its unfair. Give them a claim and they all have the same abilities.

Evidence on Cloud being able to stomp Squall please. Dissidia is clear on who is superior and in their respective games Squall has claims to better gear (his summons).

#33 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

If game mechanics are being used, Squall has a 25% chance of being screwed. Also, what are we even debating? Whether or not Cloud gets to use materia?

#34 Posted by MisterWhisper (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

Based on the characters, their backstories, and their roles in the games. Squall should win.

Cloud was not good enough to get into Soldier, Squall was appointed the commander of the worlds most sought after mercenary force on the planet at age 17.

Game mechanic wise, if properly equipped physically they are almost exactly the same.

Game mechanic wise though Cloud has it in the bag. Being able to link certain materia is practically an auto win. Quad-Slice + First Strike = auto win.

Also Advent Children should honestly not be used, if they had ever made a high end CGI FFVIII movie Sqaull would be doing the same thing. Movies are like cutscenes, rule of awesome is much more important than actually making it realistic.

I never played Kingdom Hearts, so I can not really say much on that one.

#35 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia said:

You can't name what all that materia and being party leader doesn't give Cloud a claim to it either. Do the other party members get a claim also? Or not at all? You don't give them a claim and its unfair. Give them a claim and they all have the same abilities.

Evidence on Cloud being able to stomp Squall please. Dissidia is clear on who is superior and in their respective games Squall has claims to better gear (his summons).

Cloud doesn't even need summons...

Cloud can stomp through Squall's summons with ease. Lets put it this way, bullets bounce off of Cloud's skin, he can get thrown through skyscrapers without injury, he can tank a stab through his heart and several major arteries and still fight, he has levitation, and so much more. He's incredibly resistant to all elements, has natural magic abilities (limit breaks), and extensive knowledge on how to use materia.

As for the rest of his party not having claim to the materia. They willingly gave it up, you can read the chapter if you want, it's right there. They all decided Cloud and Tifa have full control and reign over it, though Yuffie technically owns it.

As for why Cloud beats Squall. Well, Bahamut SIn was more powerful than any summon in FF8, and lets see how well that faired against Cloud:

Based on the characters, their backstories, and their roles in the games. Squall should win.

Cloud was not good enough to get into Soldier, Squall was appointed the commander of the worlds most sought after mercenary force on the planet at age 17.

Game mechanic wise, if properly equipped physically they are almost exactly the same.

Game mechanic wise though Cloud has it in the bag. Being able to link certain materia is practically an auto win. Quad-Slice + First Strike = auto win.

Also Advent Children should honestly not be used, if they had ever made a high end CGI FFVIII movie Sqaull would be doing the same thing. Movies are like cutscenes, rule of awesome is much more important than actually making it realistic.

I never played Kingdom Hearts, so I can not really say much on that one.

Even before Advent Children, Cloud was superior to any SOLDIER member, he was part of the Jenova Project, and the only successful experiment (unless you include Sephiroth, but he was a different project)...

Cloud was only in Shinra for a short while before the Jenova Projects, for all we know he could have easily been promoted to SOLDIER. Lets not forget, he was the one who scored a hit on Sephiroth, something no other was able to do. He was the one to defeat Sephiroth at the end, he was the one with flight, engineering, superior swordsmanship, and superior ability to all others in that game. The only person who could claim his equal (superior actually) was Sephiroth, and that's nothing to be ashamed of.

As for AC, even without it Cloud was superior in most ways. Yes, Squall was a higher ranking member of SeeD than Cloud was to Shinra. That's a fact. However, SeeD members really weren't that far above peak human, they didn't have that level of enhancement, and they faced nowhere near the same quantity of opponent that Shinra had to go up against. Wutai, the World Regenesis Organization, the Tsviets, Genesis, and etc. The Sorceress was a powerful opponent, but she was one person defeat via plot device.

The hodgepodge party of Final Fantasy 7 took on Shinra (infantry, SOLDIER, Turks, mech, etc.), Hojo (when he went rogue), countless monsters, ancient beings, godlike beings, Jenova, Tsviets, Earth Weapons, and Sephiroth (I can't emphasize that enough).

I loved FF8 (gameplay was really crappy, but it had a cool story), but Squall has nothing on Cloud. Cloud wields a weapon that is most likely around 80-100 pounds, and can spin it above his head with absolute ease (I base the weight based on average human lifting capacity and a couple feats shown in some of the other FF7 games). Over and above this, just because FF8 was less popular and didn't get any sequels or movies, doesn't mean the fact that FF7 did get several is a sleight against it or Cloud.

Square Enix clearly wanted Cloud to be at those power levels. How do we know this? Because they made 4 games (Final Fantasy 7, Final Fantasy 7: Crisis Core, Final Fantasy 7: Dirge of Cerberus, Final Fantasy 7: Before Crisis), several novels (The Maiden Who Travels the Planet, On the Way to a Smile - Short Story Compilation, and The Turks - The Kids Aren't Alright), a few animated episodes (Last Order, and On the Way to a Smile - Denzel), and a movie (Advent Children) all describing the exact power levels they meant these characters to be at. And then of course we have Dissidia, Kingdom Hearts, and Tactics which are all outside of mainstream canon.

I have no doubt Cloud would rock Squall's world. Even in basic FF7 he was still cutting through steel constructs with his sword, still twirling a sword the size of him around above his head like a feather, he still defeated Sephiroth, he still defeated the Turks, he still rocked through waves of Shinra SOLDIER and Infantry (and yet he's claimed to not be as good as SOLDIER members?), he's still a master motorcyclist, he still has levitation, he can still leap a dozen feet or more while carrying a few hundred pounds on his back, and he still has the absorbed memories of Zack Fair (a First Class SOLDIER member). What does Squall have on that?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#36 Posted by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

If game mechanics are being used, Squall has a 25% chance of being screwed. Also, what are we even debating? Whether or not Cloud gets to use materia?

You should check things before you say such things. Cloud's chance of getting a first strike with that materia is around third (being generous). Squall with the Initiative ability is 100%. This "Cloud has first strike" business is flawed from the get go when Squall has it also and its better to boot.

I was debating it because posters are treating Cloud like he has access to all the world's materia like its canon.

Based on the characters, their backstories, and their roles in the games. Squall should win.

Cloud was not good enough to get into Soldier, Squall was appointed the commander of the worlds most sought after mercenary force on the planet at age 17.

Game mechanic wise, if properly equipped physically they are almost exactly the same.

Game mechanic wise though Cloud has it in the bag. Being able to link certain materia is practically an auto win. Quad-Slice + First Strike = auto win.

Also Advent Children should honestly not be used, if they had ever made a high end CGI FFVIII movie Sqaull would be doing the same thing. Movies are like cutscenes, rule of awesome is much more important than actually making it realistic.

I never played Kingdom Hearts, so I can not really say much on that one.

The same? Squall can boost all his stats except HIT which starts maxed anyway. He can pull the trigger on his sword to cause additional damage. He has access to summons which can also act as a shield.
Maxed evasion and luck means Cloud'll be lucky to even connect with an attack.

#37 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia: it's actually up to a 80% chance when leveled up. But it preempts the battle itself - initiative means Squall gets his turn first. Which he wouldn't if he's caught by surprise.

#38 Edited by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

@rozalia: it's actually up to a 80% chance when leveled up. But it preempts the battle itself - initiative means Squall gets his turn first. Which he wouldn't if he's caught by surprise.

Its description: +19% chance of preemptive strike. The effect can be stacked with multiple Pre-Emptive Materia up to +33.

Mechanics are the same, even if Cloud took Squall by "surprise" Squall would still have his turn bar full from the get go. As Squall's preemptive is 100% and Cloud's isn't Squall has the edge there.

#39 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia said:

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

@rozalia: it's actually up to a 80% chance when leveled up. But it preempts the battle itself - initiative means Squall gets his turn first. Which he wouldn't if he's caught by surprise.

Its description: +19% chance of preemptive strike. The effect can be stacked with multiple Pre-Emptive Materia up to +33.

Mechanics are the same, even if Cloud took Squall by "surprise" Squall would still have his turn bar full from the get go. As Squall's preemptive is 100% and Cloud's isn't Squall has the edge there.

If we're going game mechanics Cloud can render himself immune to all status ailments and elemental attacks, as well as amp all his stats to max using things you can farm in the sunken submarine.

But realistically Cloud should win based on feats.

2:00-3:00 - Squall gets owned by Seifer in their training session. As seen, Squall isn't anywhere near Cloud's strength or speed.

6:25 - 7:15 - Squall is way slower than the mech boss, can't damage it, and can only leap a good 5 meters, even under extreme duress.

Honestly, I loved the FF8 game, I really did. The gameplay may have sucked (I mean, spamming the square button to make summons more powerful, really?), but it had an awesome story (with the exception of catching Rinoa in space) and was overall very enjoyable. It was also very unique in the Final Fantasy series.

However, Squall is nowhere near Cloud. The best chance he has is if gameplay all of a sudden is considered canon for whatever reason. And if we accept that, then we have to consider that where Squall could tank and possibly be killed by a planet being slammed into him, Cloud could tank a Supernova. Both of which, in my opinion, are non-canon.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#40 Edited by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay said:

@rozalia said:

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

@rozalia: it's actually up to a 80% chance when leveled up. But it preempts the battle itself - initiative means Squall gets his turn first. Which he wouldn't if he's caught by surprise.

Its description: +19% chance of preemptive strike. The effect can be stacked with multiple Pre-Emptive Materia up to +33.

Mechanics are the same, even if Cloud took Squall by "surprise" Squall would still have his turn bar full from the get go. As Squall's preemptive is 100% and Cloud's isn't Squall has the edge there.

If we're going game mechanics Cloud can render himself immune to all status ailments and elemental attacks, as well as amp all his stats to max using things you can farm in the sunken submarine.

Squall can render himself completely invincible and as I've proven Squall has a more reliable initiative and that my friend is checkmate. Not that I'd bother with such a matchup because as I've said Cloud doesn't have much in the way of canon materia. All, preemptive, elemental and so on are all non-canon for Cloud. Squall has three canon summons meaning from a canon gameplay perspective he is far and beyond stronger.

Also you seen Blasting zone and Renzokuken in general?

@floopay said:

@rozalia said:

@the_last_son_of_czarnia said:

@rozalia: it's actually up to a 80% chance when leveled up. But it preempts the battle itself - initiative means Squall gets his turn first. Which he wouldn't if he's caught by surprise.

Its description: +19% chance of preemptive strike. The effect can be stacked with multiple Pre-Emptive Materia up to +33.

Mechanics are the same, even if Cloud took Squall by "surprise" Squall would still have his turn bar full from the get go. As Squall's preemptive is 100% and Cloud's isn't Squall has the edge there.

If we're going game mechanics Cloud can render himself immune to all status ailments and elemental attacks, as well as amp all his stats to max using things you can farm in the sunken submarine.

But realistically Cloud should win based on feats.

2:00-3:00 - Squall gets owned by Seifer in their training session. As seen, Squall isn't anywhere near Cloud's strength or speed.

6:25 - 7:15 - Squall is way slower than the mech boss, can't damage it, and can only leap a good 5 meters, even under extreme duress.

I hope you're not seriously comparing the cutscenes from an old game to that of a somewhat recent movie. Emperor Mateus doesn't have any mad cutscenes showing him flying all over the place and he is still way more powerful than the likes of Cloud.

#41 Posted by TifaLockhart (14051 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia: a successful sneak attack occurs before anyone has the time to issue commands. It was the argument against Auron's first strike.

#42 Edited by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia: Cloud has plenty of canon materia. Ultima (canon ending, is they stop the train, giving him access to Ultima), Odin (canon ending is they acquire Vincent), they have Bahamut (confirmed in AC, and also shown in CC), he has fire (stolen by Kadaj in AC), haste (at least 3, according to AC), lightning (again, confirmed in AC), Cure (confirmed in On the Way to a Smile), Shiva (in Junon), Steal (gained from Yuffie), MP Absorb (Yuffie Sidequest), Enemy Skill (gained multiple times), Manipulate (gained from Cait Sith), and a half dozen more.

And also, you forget that if we're saying none of the materia is canon, then we can also agree that none of the draw points would be canon either, as for all we know Squall skipped over all of them. Same goes for most of the GFs, and the same can be said for all of his equipment. For all we know he never upgraded his weapon, never grabbed any GFs other than Ifrit and Quetz, and he never got any of his special upgrades or ammo...

Which means most of what you've stated is invalid by your own admittance.

You want cutscenes from game only to prove he's better? Again, your basis is that Cloud has gotten stronger since the game. He has not. Cloud has been chopping through reinforced steel since the first boss, he's been capable of leaping vast distances since the end of FF7, he's had superhuman strength since the beginning.

1:20-1:35 - Should be noted that since FF7, Cloud has always opened his fights on Fenrir and has used the Fushion sword.

2:00 - 2:10 - Cloud can tank massive explosions and leap vast distances.

Cloud vs. Sephiroth

The fact that Cloud wields his sword is proof enough that he's stronger than Squall. The fact that he can swing it so easily and twirl it above his head like it's made of feathers is just overkill...

0:40-End - Omnislash. And yes, the canon ending of Final Fantasy 7, is Cloud uses Omnislash to defeat Sephiroth. This was confirmed in the Maiden Who Travels the Planet.

Final Cutscene

0:45-1:05 - Cloud leeps a good 8-10 feet with Tifa Lockhart in his arms, which is a good 110-120 pounds or so.

1:05-1:35 - Then easily supports them both with one arm and lifts them both up with one arm while talking and without exerting effort.

Over and above this it is canon that Cloud is the party leader, and that they share equipment. I don't see why he couldn't use any one of the hundreds of pieces of materia he has to win this...

Plus, summons can be used instantly in FF7, whereas in FF8 they take time. So if Squall goes for his GF, he's boned because of Cloud's instant use materia... However, that's debating gameplay against which is ridiculous.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#43 Posted by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay said:

@rozalia: Cloud has plenty of canon materia. Ultima (canon ending, is they stop the train, giving him access to Ultima), Odin (canon ending is they acquire Vincent), they have Bahamut (confirmed in AC, and also shown in CC), he has fire (stolen by Kadaj in AC), haste (at least 3, according to AC), lightning (again, confirmed in AC), Cure (confirmed in On the Way to a Smile), Shiva (in Junon), Steal (gained from Yuffie), MP Absorb (Yuffie Sidequest), Enemy Skill (gained multiple times), Manipulate (gained from Cait Sith), and a half dozen more.

And also, you forget that if we're saying none of the materia is canon, then we can also agree that none of the draw points would be canon either, as for all we know Squall skipped over all of them. Same goes for most of the GFs, and the same can be said for all of his equipment. For all we know he never upgraded his weapon, never grabbed any GFs other than Ifrit and Quetz, and he never got any of his special upgrades or ammo...

Which means most of what you've stated is invalid by your own admittance.

Prove stopping the train is canon, also prove its directly given to Cloud like Shiva and restore are. Prove that it is canon that Cloud picked up the Odin Materia off the ground. Steal is equipped to Yuffie as far as I remember not given to Cloud. Prove that getting MP absorb is canon (it can be missed very easily). Enemy skill starts equipped on Cait Sith but Cloud has no canon claim on it. Manipulate is Cait Sith's.

You like bringing up a lot of materia that Cloud has no claim on.

Ultimate weapons and armour are different in that they are unique to that specific character. Squall being the only one with access to Lionheart gives him a claim on it.
To give an example in covenant of the plume there is a sword called the Angel Slayer which is supposed to be a sword of malice strong enough to kill Gods. The main character acquires it but it is just a sword...shouldn't all the other swordsmen get it too, they can equip it so yeah? No because only the main character has a claim on it. Same deal.

Squall has a claim on Shiva, Quetzalcoatl, Ifrit which is quite a bit more important then Cloud's crummy selection of canon materia.

@floopay said:

You want cutscenes from game only to prove he's better? Again, your basis is that Cloud has gotten stronger since the game. He has not. Cloud has been chopping through reinforced steel since the first boss, he's been capable of leaping vast distances since the end of FF7, he's had superhuman strength since the beginning.

1:20-1:35 - Should be noted that since FF7, Cloud has always opened his fights on Fenrir and has used the Fushion sword.

2:00 - 2:10 - Cloud can tank massive explosions and leap vast distances.

Cloud vs. Sephiroth

The fact that Cloud wields his sword is proof enough that he's stronger than Squall. The fact that he can swing it so easily and twirl it above his head like it's made of feathers is just overkill...

0:40-End - Omnislash. And yes, the canon ending of Final Fantasy 7, is Cloud uses Omnislash to defeat Sephiroth. This was confirmed in the Maiden Who Travels the Planet.

Final Cutscene

0:45-1:05 - Cloud leeps a good 8-10 feet with Tifa Lockhart in his arms, which is a good 110-120 pounds or so.

1:05-1:35 - Then easily supports them both with one arm and lifts them both up with one arm while talking and without exerting effort.

Over and above this it is canon that Cloud is the party leader, and that they share equipment. I don't see why he couldn't use any one of the hundreds of pieces of materia he has to win this...

Plus, summons can be used instantly in FF7, whereas in FF8 they take time. So if Squall goes for his GF, he's boned because of Cloud's instant use materia... However, that's debating gameplay against which is ridiculous.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

A newer game so of course it'd involve more animation. 8 bit games have plenty of characters who'd crush Cloud and yet you'd argue they can't because they aren't seen flying about and making fancy attacks?

Also you seem to forget that while it may be impressive that Cloud swings the buster sword like that but you're dismissing Squall strength. Squall pulling the trigger ingame results in an explosion that should blow his arm off body and yet he is able to use it no problem and as Cid has said he and Seifer are pretty the only ones in the world who can use such a powerful weapon.

As for the GF thing...you seem to be forgetting mechanics. Squall is going first and if he decides to put a GF then he will gain a whole new health bar which belongs to the GF. Cloud can't one shot that so it'd go like this.

Squall: Summon Ifrit, health: 9000
Cloud: Summon Ifrit damage Squall Ifrit by 4000
Squall: Ifrit attack, Cloud takes 5000 damage.
Squall: Summon Shiva, health: 9000
Cloud: Summon Ifrit damage Squall Shiva by 4000
Squall: Shiva attack, Cloud takes 5000 damage

Cloud is dead, gameover.

Not that Squall needs summons of course but I'm just showing you that not being instant actually makes Squall's summons better as they act as shields hardy as he is.

#44 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia: Why would the trigger easily blow Cloud's arm off? Cloud tanks explosions with ease, and that's just in canon.

The quality of graphics don't matter. Kefka using his full power would own Cloud and Squall put together (though he would actually lose to either of them individually because he's terrible with his powers). Terra is likely more powerful than the both of them as well, and she's back in the 8 bit days. Claiming better graphics is the only reason a character is better is ridiculous. Not to mention I've debated much of this using feats from FF7, whose graphics were FAR inferior to FF8.

The fact that Cloud has more feats and was in more series doesn't make him less of a character. At the end of the day this is Cloud vs Squall. Not Cloud (FF7 Feats only) vs. Squall (FF8 Feats only).

Debating gameplay is just ridiculous, and claiming all materia in FF7 is non-canon is also ridiculous. Several times in the games Cloud was stated to be the leader. All of them (well, Barret and Tifa did) turned to Cloud for tutorials on how to properly equip and use materia. All of them confided in Cloud and gave him the absolute power of all decisions they made. Cloud chose to go after Sephiroth and they followed. Cloud gave them the option to leave, and they didn't. They ALL wanted Cloud to be in control, and wanted him to give orders.

At the end of FF7, they gave ALL their materia to Cloud Strife (and Tifa). Yuffie even gave up hers, and they gave her all the restoration materia in return. If he wants to call them up and tell them he's using the materia, it's ridiculous to think they would say anything other than "Go ahead and use it".

However, all of that is pointless. Cloud was proven to be stronger than Squall. That's a fact. Squall was never shown to be much more than peak human, and was never claimed to be. Cloud was stated, and shown multiple times throughout the original Final Fantasy 7 game to be well above the power level of any peak human. He was shown to have levitation, could survive astral projection, was able to easily dispatch large machines, was able to survive falls from extreme distances (falls several hundred feat, through the roof of a church, and lands in Aerith's flower bed, and though becomes unconscious, is not shown to have so much as a scratch on him), survived being stabbed through the heart (and was still able to overpower his opponent, who was ripping through steel like it was nothing) BEFORE he got any enhancements, and so much more.

I don't even know how this is debatable, unless we use crappy gameplay feats which shouldn't even be considered.

Essentially, all I'm hearing is "Squall is inferior to Cloud, and can only win via gameplay". Wheras Cloud dominates him in a real fight.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#45 Posted by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay said:

@rozalia: Why would the trigger easily blow Cloud's arm off? Cloud tanks explosions with ease, and that's just in canon.

... You doing this on purpose?

Squall pulling the trigger ingame results in an explosion that should blow his arm off body and yet he is able to use it no problem and as Cid has said he and Seifer are pretty the only ones in the world who can use such a powerful weapon

@floopay said:

@rozalia: Why would the trigger easily blow Cloud's arm off? Cloud tanks explosions with ease, and that's just in canon.

The quality of graphics don't matter. Kefka using his full power would own Cloud and Squall put together (though he would actually lose to either of them individually because he's terrible with his powers). Terra is likely more powerful than the both of them as well, and she's back in the 8 bit days. Claiming better graphics is the only reason a character is better is ridiculous. Not to mention I've debated much of this using feats from FF7, whose graphics were FAR inferior to FF8.

... Again? I'm claiming the exact opposite of what you've just said which I would have thought pretty clear.

A newer game so of course it'd involve more animation. 8 bit games have plenty of characters who'd crush Cloud and yet you'd argue they can't because they aren't seen flying about and making fancy attacks?

@floopay said:

Debating gameplay is just ridiculous, and claiming all materia in FF7 is non-canon is also ridiculous. Several times in the games Cloud was stated to be the leader. All of them (well, Barret and Tifa did) turned to Cloud for tutorials on how to properly equip and use materia. All of them confided in Cloud and gave him the absolute power of all decisions they made. Cloud chose to go after Sephiroth and they followed. Cloud gave them the option to leave, and they didn't. They ALL wanted Cloud to be in control, and wanted him to give orders.

Hey I'm not the one who started it. When someone brings up gameplay and states that Cloud wins on that it is expected someone will argue the point.
As for your point...its irrelevant. How does being leader suddenly make all that non-canon materia canon? Cloud has only a small selection of materia that is canon to him, the rest in the game are non-canon to him. No KOTR nonsense.

@floopay said:

At the end of FF7, they gave ALL their materia to Cloud Strife (and Tifa). Yuffie even gave up hers, and they gave her all the restoration materia in return. If he wants to call them up and tell them he's using the materia, it's ridiculous to think they would say anything other than "Go ahead and use it".

Barret, Tifa, Vincent, Aerith, Cid all have no canon materia. Please don't waste my time with bringing up holy or chaos materia because it just isn't worth wasting time on.
Yuffie has steal, Cait Sith has Manipulate and Enemy Skill, Red has fire and all. That is such a large amount of canon materia isn't it?

You don't seem to understand that simply being able to equip something on a character doesn't give them a canon claim on it. As I noted in my example before, just because you can equip the god slaying sword on any of your other party members doesn't mean they have a claim on it, only the main guy does because he directly gets it.

Here I'll give you another example because perhaps this one'll make you get it, I'll make it Valkyrie profile related too because why not.

The final boss of Valkyrie Profile 2 Lezard in the final battle is shown to be practically impervious to physical damage from even weapons used by the gods of Asgards (same weapons that had no problem hurting Odin by the way). When the Valkyries fuse they get a weapon that has enough plot power that not only always them to actually hurt him but also to kill him (with relative ease). This sword can if you choose to be given to any party member. Does that mean every party member has access to a sword that'd likely one shot Odin? No because its not a normal piece of equipment.

Materia in the same vein isn't standard equipment. Cloud is allowed Bolt, Ice, Shiva, Restore and so on because he has canon claims to them, he doesn't on the rest.

Of course debating gameplay is a lot more complicated then you'd think. An easy example is when it comes to debating boss durability for example.

Boss 1 has 1,000,000 Hp and takes around 400,000 damage per attack from the party.
Boss 2 has 999 Hp and takes 23 damage per attack from the party.

Who is tougher? Scaling would show Boss 1 to be paper thin in durability while Boss 2 would be far tougher.

Another example:

Sephiroth with Shadow Flare causes 5000 damage (max party member health 9999)
Demifiend with Gaea Rage causes 10,000 damage (max party member health 999)

Spehiroth's Shadow Flare is a 2 hit KO.
Demifiend's Gaea Rage is 10 times overkill.

Using scaling we can thus surmise that Gaea Rage is 20 times the strength of Shadow Flare and a gameplay battle between the two would easily result in Demifiend's victory especially with Sephiroth's wonky durability issues. Gameplay can easily be used to determine strength as long as you properly scale and analyze it.

@floopay said:

However, all of that is pointless. Cloud was proven to be stronger than Squall. That's a fact. Squall was never shown to be much more than peak human, and was never claimed to be. Cloud was stated, and shown multiple times throughout the original Final Fantasy 7 game to be well above the power level of any peak human. He was shown to have levitation, could survive astral projection, was able to easily dispatch large machines, was able to survive falls from extreme distances (falls several hundred feat, through the roof of a church, and lands in Aerith's flower bed, and though becomes unconscious, is not shown to have so much as a scratch on him), survived being stabbed through the heart (and was still able to overpower his opponent, who was ripping through steel like it was nothing) BEFORE he got any enhancements, and so much more.

I don't even know how this is debatable, unless we use crappy gameplay feats which shouldn't even be considered.

Dissidia would like to have a word with you. Squall is the strongest hero there while Cloud isn't at all notable.

#46 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia: I'm making no claim to non-canon materia, that's the thing. I have not ONCE referenced any materia that hasn't been shown in main continuity to be canon. Yuffie gains all her restorative materia used throughout the novels from the party. All of the destructive materia used in Advent Children was gained by stealing Cloud and Tifa's materia from their chest.

I have yet to debate with gameplay, and I think debating with gameplay is ridiculous. By that logic Shadow from FF3 should own both of them with the Offering and a Genji Glove (Both canon to him)...

I prefer to debate based off of actually feats (which both characters have plenty of). If we go off gameplay then we're doing nothing more than debating which game mechanics have the more broken combination, and not debating a character's actual strengths and weaknesses at all.

Cloud, Squall, Yuffie, Aerith, and etc. all have the same gameplay strength (well, not really, but you can see my point) in the sense that with the right combination they all can get up to 7000-9999 damage.

What I'm debating is actual shown strength, speed, reflexes, skill, and etc.

That's why I believe Cloud to be the winner. Even if we only debate classic FF8 and FF7, Cloud still has every conceivable advantage. If we take all their canon material into consideration, then Cloud still comes out the winner, but this time in a stomp.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#47 Posted by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay said:

@rozalia: I'm making no claim to non-canon materia, that's the thing. I have not ONCE referenced any materia that hasn't been shown in main continuity to be canon. Yuffie gains all her restorative materia used throughout the novels from the party. All of the destructive materia used in Advent Children was gained by stealing Cloud and Tifa's materia from their chest.

You keep bring up stuff like Ultima which isn't shown anywhere to be canon to Cloud.

@floopay said:

I have yet to debate with gameplay, and I think debating with gameplay is ridiculous. By that logic Shadow from FF3 should own both of them with the Offering and a Genji Glove (Both canon to him)...

Both are non canon to him, try again.

@floopay said:

I prefer to debate based off of actually feats (which both characters have plenty of). If we go off gameplay then we're doing nothing more than debating which game mechanics have the more broken combination, and not debating a character's actual strengths and weaknesses at all.

But its not about who has access to the most broken combinations, its who by canon is stronger in gameplay.

@floopay said:

Cloud, Squall, Yuffie, Aerith, and etc. all have the same gameplay strength (well, not really, but you can see my point) in the sense that with the right combination they all can get up to 7000-9999 damage.

There is a site of guys who made it their business to analyze these things (The RPG Duelling League) so using their stats below I'll tell you who is stronger.

HP:

Taken at level 61

1. Barret 5758
2. Cait Sith 5705
(Cait Sith with Transform Materia 5419)
3. Red XIII 5295
4. Cid 5151
5. Cloud 5083
(Red XIII with Fire Materia 5030)
6. Tifa 4969
(Cloud with One Materia 4828)
7. Yuffie 4726
8. Vincent 4595
(Cloud with 2 Materia 4587)

Taken at level 100 (no junctions)

Average: 5160

Seifer 5823
Ward 4768
Squall 4187
Rinoa 4181
Zell 4018
Quistis 3883
Irvine 3880
Edea 3777
Kiros 3728
Selphie 3680

Average: 3971

Even with the massive health of Seifer dragging the average up Squall is statistically more durable then Cloud. Analyzing gameplay is a long and difficult (yet very much possible) task.

@floopay said:

What I'm debating is actual shown strength, speed, reflexes, skill, and etc.

That's why I believe Cloud to be the winner. Even if we only debate classic FF8 and FF7, Cloud still has every conceivable advantage. If we take all their canon material into consideration, then Cloud still comes out the winner, but this time in a stomp.

Final fantasy 8 didn't allow for the fighting you'll find in Advent children. Dissidia which both star in shows Squall to be far superior.

#48 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia: The problem is Dissidia isn't really canon to any Final Fantasy and contradicts FF7 continuity completely. It's hard to take that version of Final Fantasy 7 characters seriously when you compare their abilities there, compared to their level of ability shown in Final Fantasy 7 Before Crisis, Final Fantasy 7: Crisis Core, Last Order, Final Fantasy 7, The Maiden Who Travels the Planet, Final Fantasy 7 On the Way to a Smile, Case of Denzel, Final Fantasy 7 The Kids Aren't Alright, and Final Fantasy 7 Dirge of Cerberus.

That's why I usually don't debate with the Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy Tactics, or Dissidia feats, because they all directly contradict FF7 Main Canon.

I have the utmost respect for Squall, and I believe he could fight with any other peak human or even metahuman level character (up to even to 5-10 ton heroes), but Cloud was shown to be on a whole new level. Cloud was cutting through buildings, tanking city block busting attacks, getting stabbed across his entire body (through the heart in original, and across his entire body in AC), cutting through a person's very soul essence (an ability that is not shown in Dissidia), and so much more.

Final Fantasy 8 is among my favorites, and I really enjoyed the game despite the horrible gameplay (I bring that up often because I want people to understand just how good the story, and character development really was for the game to still be amazing despite that one very key factor). Squall was a top tier fighter, easily peak human, and showed a level of determination and crazy that I think more heroes need (he tended to get lost in his head and blurt out random thoughts once in awhile...). But I just cannot vote for Squall here.

Even without Materia, Cloud was cutting through buildings. Even in original FF7 (original game, no sequels or books), he was levitating and flying without materia, he was surviving stabs through the heart, he was walking in arctic weather with no sleeves, he was cutting through mech twice the size of the thing Squall ran away from (because he couldn't put it down or damage it enough), was dodging bullets (automatic gunfire from multiple locations on many instances), and was able to best the greatest swordsman/soldier Shinra ever produced.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#49 Edited by Rozalia (692 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't see your point about Dissidia. Cloud can still fly, do his attacks, and so on. He had amnesia *rolls eyes* which explains most things you could bring up.
Also you can in no way say that the heroes are weaker in dissidia considing they can now tango one on one with the villains.

#50 Edited by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@rozalia said:

Don't see your point about Dissidia. Cloud can still fly, do his attacks, and so on. He had amnesia *rolls eyes* which explains most things you could bring up.

Also you can in no way say that the heroes are weaker in dissidia considing they can now tango one on one with the villains.

The problem is Dissidia is almost 100% gameplay. Tifa can fight on par with Sephiroth in Dissidia, something she has no business being able to do. All the characters were toned down to be on par with one another. Kefka couldn't boast his city leveling attacks, or his ultimate creation abilities. Sephiroth couldn't use his telekinesis, teleport, go intangible, use TP, etc. Cloud didn't have Climhazzard, Cross Slash, or most of his abilities. He also didn't use the Fushion Sword, and didn't boast any of his strength.

Heck in that game even Tidus could keep up with Cloud, something he has no business being able to do.

At the end of the day, Dissidia was fun, but completely non-canon to all the series involved. It blows away continuity and previous power levels the way Bendis does when he writes comic books. It's no more canon to Final Fantasy 7 than Kingdom Hearts, or Final Fantasy Tactics is...

Thanks for reading,

Floopay