Federation Fleet vs Empire Fleet vs Imperial Navy

Star Trek Federation vs Star Wars Empire vs Warhammer 40K Imperil Navy in a 3 way space battle.
 
- Who Ships are the best 
- which Naval Force would win any given Battle? 
 
- Star Wars Battle of Endor had 30 Imperial Star Destoyers, Deathstar, and the Super SD.  

- Battle Fleet Gothic had 40 Ships in all (List of Ships here http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?176212-Census-of-Gothic-War-ships) Plus a Space Marine Fleet with 1 Battlebarge, 3 Strike Crusiers.  

- First big Battle of the Borg had 40 Federation Ships, can include Deep Space 9 and the Borg Cube.  

So who comes out on top? Whos the non factor? Who has the better ships?  
 
Edit I realize the federation were badly outman and gun so added Deep Space 9 Station and the Borg Cube that fought the Federation.

Don't know what Warhammer can do, so...

Bump

This 40K fleet>this Star Wars fleet. The Federation is lost and doesn't belong here.

Thoughts? @wut

The fed has a much stronger chance then many think here. There speed is the top here I also mean maneuvering speed. There tactics far outclass Star Wars tho the 40k has competent commanders.

There big advantage is teleporting they can telipirt things like strike teams (woefully sh^^y strike teams). Or photon torpedos on t other ships. Or there commanders off of them.

Another strong tactic would be to just keep moving fast and let the slower teams duke it out. Considering star wars empire tactics (or lack of in most fleets). They will just cruise up to the slower 40k team and duke it out.

And a note the Startrec team gets a lot stronger if they start transporting Borg onto enemy ships. Like into there command deck witch in Star Wars is hilariously easy to spot (it's the one with te giant freaking window)

Not Star Wars does have the fire power and range (range they seldom use). But there the worst led unless your having one of a very few names leaders.

40k. Is the second best in everything here. A lot will depend on who is leading the forces. At generic I say Star Trek could win via Star Wars going after the target they can catch and in a close matc I think they blow away all but the best lead 40k fleets. Especially once you count tie fighters and bombers

@crest: 40k combat speed is 75% the speed of light. Faster then anything we have ever seen the Federation fight at. Before anyone claims otherwise, their 'firing in warp speed' was at another target in warp speed. They have never shown the ability to tag something out of warp speed while in warp speed. They also fight at much further ranges then we have ever seen the Federation.

Space Marine ships have teleportation. Star Trek teleportation gets stopped by shielding (Hence the X always demanding they lower their shields). 40k Teleportation will not get stopped by Star Wars/Star Trek shielding as their shielding is energy based (akin to Ork shielding). The only shielding that has been shown to stop 40k teleportation is Void Shielding which is dimensional and has to be kicked up to an extreme high output to stop teleportation.

Star Wars ships have the ability to preform microjumps (as do 40k ships) that allow them to use their ftl to jump to points on the battlefield if they need to get close for some reason. So, no, they are not slow. Thrawn was particularly fond of that tactic.

40k Firepower has more power then Star Wars firepower. The only thing that beats their big ships is the Deathstar here. Star Wars has faster firing rates then most of the 40k weaponry (as we don't know the real firing rate of the Macrobatteries which are their small weaponry [And that name is a misnomer since macrobatteries have macrobatteries, laser, plasma etc]).

To be blunt, unless we are using a wanked out interpretation of Federation firepower and a very low interpretation of 40k, the crew of a Retribution battleship is more likely to die of old age then a Federation ship is to do any real damage to it. That is the difference in firepower and durability between those two factions.

@paragonnate Dunno, the Deathstar really makes it difficult. Best bet would be to either suicide ram and explode generator (which they have done before) or for the Space Marines to teleport Termies onto it to try and cripple it (or do a World Engine and ram it then unload all their marines on it), but if an unknown amount of terminators can do critical damage to the Deathstars internal system given the sheer amount of soldiers on the Deathstar is a thread all in itself, tbh.

@wut: Death Star? *scrolls up and reads OP again* Oh, didn't see it there, yeah that changes things a lot. The DS alone is a fleet killer.

Hhhhmmmm. Thinking about it now I'd say the DS could play flyswatter with the Federation ships while its own accompanying fleet ties up the Imperial Navy ships. The GE fleet is outnumbered but they aren't going down quickly or quietly any time soon. They should last long enough, with heavy losses, for the DS to take out the vast majority of the Federation fleet, if not all of them, then it can turn its attention on whats left of the Imperium ships. Barring boarding I'm not sure what the Imperium can do to stop the DS with the ships they have here, they can cause severe damage sure, but the DS no sold Alderan blowing up in its face, it can take their firepower for a very long time if it has to.

I mean the Imperium could suicide ram the DS if they really didn't care about their losses and wanted it dead. But is sacrificing a valuable ship against something like the Planet Killer really their go to move? Seems to me like they'd be more willing to retreat and gather their strength for another attempt with a larger fleet rather than sacrifice a ship that can't be easily replaced. They did that against a Tyranid swarm IIRC, but that's because they couldn't retreat and it was the only option to stop the Tyranids that they had.

@paragonnate: They sacrificed a ship and an entire space marine chapter to take down the Necron World Engine which is just the Necron Deathstar. If push comes to shove, the Space Marines are willing to do quite a bit.

Honestly, retreating would be the smart option, and if given the chance, I imagine they would, but if it is a forced fight to the death? I imagine it will happen. Mind I am saying ram then overload the engine. Gotta do the full one-two combo.

@wut:

I do conced that they need showings of firing at warp speed into non warp speed. But they can manoeuvre faster and they don't have to be firing to stay out of the fight.

Yes sheilds do need to be down but with all the fighting going on there will be plenty of that. i never claimed Star Trek had good range infact they do have the worst range.

Star Wars has the best at least on paper. Tho despite it they do tend to close in in major fleet engagements. I don't know why they do this but it's all kinds of cannon.

40k shields all have weak spots (there a more complex rps system). Fed uses muti frequency lasers and photon torpedoed for kinetic. Plus with info from Borg cub they will find the the resistance holes in each faction.

The micro jumps are not risk free I don't see them Doing lots of it as ships will be lost and formations will be hard to keep.

As for firepower well that's debatable I personally think that by class Star Wars has more bang in each ship. Once you start counting the fire power given by bombers and tie fighters it gets absurd how much a star destroyer can actually pump out.

I don't think I'm wanking star trec here in a one way fight they most likely lose. To 40k in a three way with Star Wars they can pull the win. They have the leadership to not go in brawling and play to there strengths.

This fight is going to be 40k vs stalwars wit fed sniping here and there (and prob sniping on the side that is ahead) Then fed vs the winners. Star Wars is not a well led force in most cases and they always engage whatever they can engage. They will be bringing the fight to 40k before they decide to micro jump around in the hopes of catching something they can't relyiably hit

Imperium >/= Galactic Empire >>>> Federation.

@crest: Star Trek ships aren't doing much to either sides shielding if we are using the GE calcs needed to make a GE vs IoM fun and interesting (Ergo, not the movie or shows).

If by 'maneuver' fast you mean turn their ship around, sure. But that doesn't mean much when they can still be pegged as they are trying their barrel rolls from the other side of the solar system or have an ISD jump right next to them an unload on them. In a fight between large warships, maneuverability doesn't rate as a high advantage like it would in a fighter debate.

Star Wars has the best what? They don't have the best firepower or durability. They aren't the most maneuverable or fast. The only edge I can think of they have in spades is fighter/bomber numbers. [Not counting the Deathstar which is the strongest thing here, but it isn't a ship, its more of a space station.] What Star Wars does have is the second best in all of those.

You don't understand the scale very well. 40k ships play with triple digit GT as standard, common, weaponry. Not even their big weaponry. Those are just standard missile loadouts. Nothing on a Lance battery or Novacannon shot. Star Trek sits comfortable in the low MT level. They, literally, can't do anything to anyone in any sort of reasonable time frame. Brah... frequency doesn't matter. That isn't how their shields work. 40k Shields work by sending whatever hits them into the warp, essentially, teleporting them to another dimension. Hitting them with lasers of whatever frequency you want doesn't change that. They aren't the Borg.

Thrawn loved to do it, and 'formations', you do realize that space battles tend to get insane in both universes with 'formations' going out the window, yes?

You are welcome to debate me on that. Tie Fighter firepower is crap, so I have no idea why you think that is relevant.

Uh, no, Star Wars wins here with the Deathstar unless the 40k side is bloodlusted and is ready to charge into the deathstar and overload their generators (which, again, they have done before).

No, Federation ships get splatted by random lance shots that either side deigns to send at them. They aren't relevant here. In the least.

No it is something like "40k fleets > > > Star Trek fleets > > > Star Wars fleets"

Last Jedi is fresh in my mind, engagement ranges are a dozen kilometers for SW thx to Disney.

Yields are awful, maybe equal to artillery shells. The giant canons on the Dreadnaught shot 5 times and took 10 minutes to recharge. The yield looked like maybe 2000lb JDAM.

It's now Canon that faster than light sensors are a new technology to star wars. That is unbelievable.

Faster than light items can penetrate the shields of Star Killer Base. You can hack a shield (snokes ship) from the OUTSIDE of the shield,

My god... Disney what idiots.

Star Trek sends a single ship and tears apart their entire navy in 30 or 40 seconds. Teleports a torpedo through the star killer base shields (transporter beams move faster than light) and detonates inside the fuel chamber.

Old SW is dead, move on.

-pdmasta

@andreysemyonov1337: Yeah, kind of why I keep mentioning using certain GE feats. Lol, so, you know, Legends. Otherwise, this isn't interesting.

That quote, the one in Andrey's post isn't exactly wrong, but it is a massive lowball all things considered.

Also, this thread was made when Legends was still canon, therefor this thread is using Legends, not Canon.

As the thread maker, this be Legends ofcourse lol.

Your secret identity is Pokergeist? I would have guessed George Clooney myself.

Pokergeist was original CadenceV2 till a Geist took my account and changed the name.

@sirfizzwhizz: Ha, I didn't know you were. Huh. The more you know. XD

@jwwprod said:

@wut: @sirfizzwhizz: Why aren't the Reapers here? Surely they'd cause some issues, right? :)

Legends which is directly subject to the higher canon sources. People always tend to forge that. The problem is that things like TCW existed alongside the holocron canon. Thus, the yields and such still don't really change much. As for this battle? Anything beyond Enterprise era trek wins.

That ship is there to destroy the planet Pahvo. By ToS era, Trek ships were engaing at 90000 KM. The only reason they fight closer later on is because sensors got good enough to allow them to evade, and such they began to close distances to shorten response times. Star Destroyers in canon have sublight of a pathetic 960KM per hour. In Legends, the Lady Luck, one of the fastest ships in the verse, would have taken months to cover the distance from the edge of the interdiction field at Corellia to the planet...a distance of 2LM. Trek impulse ranges from .5C for TNG era galaxy classes, and .8c for Voyager. They have sensors that can map 3 billion stars at once and can read your DNA from another system. Trek stomps...the other ships have to spend DAYS inside the weapons envelope of ships that can literally teleport weapons into them, before they can even SENSE them, much less fire back. Trek straight up has quantum manipulations hax, as well as interactions with 4th dimensional races. Per Discovery, of course. ;)

@paytience: Haven't seen discovery yet, any good?

This is Federation Trek. He specifically took them from:

- First big Battle of the Borg had 40 Federation Ships, can include Deep Space 9 and the Borg Cube.

^ Is where he is pulling it from.

Yeah. It is actually pretty damn good. Which is weird, because it kind of felt like it wasn't going to be. Def worth picking up, although it's on a mid-season break right now. But if you want calcs, Discovery uses real world measurements...and it's pretty...whew. We're talking space suits that are demonstrated at Mach 255 flying through a debris field in between two stars. We're talking about an era that doesn't even use phasers yet in trek.

Those ships fighting that cube up there?..are hundreds of years beyond Discovery.

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Hmm...you know. I think this is the way I would describe it: Discovery is good action scifi. But if you're a super trekkie, it might not be very good Star Trek. My house is trekkie, and we all like it though.

As for the battle...I just don't think the Trek asymmetric advantages can be ignored. People talk about ship size as if it is an advantage, but the reasons trek ships are not that big is because they don't have to store water, food, or fuel sources...the other ships do. The advatange in sensor range, speed, ship reaction and tactical flexibility are all in treks favor, and they have a pretty big tech edge. There isn't anything that the other factions can throw at them the Trek wouldn't figure out.

That cloak the Klingons are using isn't even a conventional Trek cloak like the Romulans use. It's an invisibility shield like the Thrawn was trying to develop in Legends. While the Empire is unable to perfect that tech in their future, the Federation has already beaten it in their past. It's tactically lopsided.

The fact is that firepower doesn't win battles. Detection, range, accuracy, and speed wins battles...logisitics wins wars. Trek has every one of those advantages thanks to replicator tech. The other fleets are outmatched. Let's draw a conventional naval parallel...a WW2 era battleship technically has bigger guns and more armor than just about anything we use today...but a modern cruiser would annihilate it before the fight ever started.

The other fleets have to figure out how to catch the trek ships...all trek has todo is figure out a way in, and they do that every episode.

In fact, Star Destroyers are not universally shielded...sections are selectively shielded, and that isn't gonna bode well when there are transporters and torpedoes.The death star get's take out with a single torpedo to it's exhaust port, and yes, Trek has more than enough feats to suggest that it will detect that.

In fact, we are extending into legends, than the Tejlkon Vagabond is the only thing I can think of that was stated irc, to use "some sort of phased particle beam"...which sliced through imp ships like butter. Phasers are a phased particle weapon. It had an effective range of over 3500KM which was FAR beyond the imp ranges. They were completely incapable of fighting back against it.

TOS has a Torpedo hit 90000 km. Voyager has an engagement starting 30000km vs the equinox. TNG era ships have engagements as far as 190000km with torpedoes and 150000 km with phasers. Even their closer engagements occur at stated ranges between 2000-5000 km. Well outside of imp range.

That's just SW of course...but WH get's wonky...people always tend to overplay what they can do because there is no canon, and thus, people can basically make up what they want. There numbers are actually all over the place because of that. The policy is basically that everything is simultaneously true and hyped.

It's set up like that...so that you can write your own game. Tabletop RPG's are built on contradictions. I could just as easily show that the same ship that has GT firepower only has ton firepower, and we would both be technically canonically right. That's the way it works, and it's honestly why I don't like touching it.

@paytience: Looks like Star Trek went through some serious regression as the eras passed then.

Might check it out then.

@wut: @paytience: I forget the numbers, but in early Star Trek Next Generation episodes, the Enterprise, Galaxy class mind ya, was threaten by a average nukes worth of energy from a opposing ship.

Just saying.

Edit: it was the Husnok warship. It hit Enterprise with a mere 400 gigawatts of particle energy and decimated their shields. Lol pretty meh IMO

@sirfizzwhizz: Trek canon=later series supercede it. Both voyager and Discovery survived unshielded near the surface of a star. There is no regression here...just increases in efficiency, targeting and sensor tech. We are given in canon reasons why ranges often have to be closed...and the empire doesn't have the tech to make them close those ranges. Arguing yields or outputs in a conventional sense is frankly not applicable. Things like phasers and such ar simply too exotic to calc in that manner...we see their effects, and that is what matters. Plasma cannons and phase cannons can be calcd however, and they could mountain bust in a single shot on their first test. While we can argue yields all day, this doesn't tell us anything about the relative effects. If your talking about the jacketed antimatter that was applied directly to the starships hull, that was done by an apparition created by a Duow...meaning the ship didn't exist and the sensor readings themselves can not be held valid.

That was S03E03.

In TOS episode balance of terror, the Enterprise straight up tanked a nuclear explosion with no shields and only light casualties. (Note: contrary to popular understanding, a casualty is not a death, but an injury in battle. Fatalities are a separate statistic)

There is a movie I believe? Where the enterprise is threatened by our nukes, but it is already heavily damaged and unshielded at the time...but then again, if we are just to argue numbers...Voyager was able travel at warp without shields or it's structural integrity field. Meaning the hulls themselves are atrong enough to travle ftl through realspace without shielding or reinforcement.

Also, since I'm on the hull strength subject...we see trek ships basically crashing through a planets atmosphere and coming out in tact. Under the same condtions...the Malevolence was ripped in pieces.

Sorry. On my phone. Switching to my laptop, and I'll cover nukes in SW...they are used, and they are a much bigger threat to Wars ships than Trek ships.

It wasn't a Husnok Warship. It wasn't anything. It was the Douow on the surface messing with their sensors and systems, and it was jacketed anitmatter wrapped around them. Also, if we're talking weaknesses in the shield systems, SW shields are incapable of full coverage, demonstrated during trench run in the the first movie...the engines and the weapons share power with the shields...per Red Dawn novel...and whereas Wars fans like to scream "frequency" as a weakness, Star Wars shields aren't even capable of protecting against multiple types of threats. You have particle shields, ray shields, and concussion shields.
fyi, Discovery shuts that frequency argument DOWN. Frequency is pretty specifically waveform modulation and not power oscillation sorry guys.

So not only is the "400 gigawatts" invalid, it doesn't matter anyway. Phasers are particle beams, and photons are shielded. Meaning a ray shield won't stop a photon torpedo, and if it is particle shielded, they simply slip through with their own shields. Phasers can slice up the mechanical, and often manned turrets...lol...from further out then the Empire can even began to imagine seeing them.

@paytience: 400 Gigawatts damage the Galaxy Class ship and wipe out its shields in one go. Deal with it :)

Don't know much about Warhammer but i can say that Star Wars > Star Trek so you place the Warhammer somewhere it belongs.

960KPH max speed bro..deal with it. ;)

One of those things is actually true, the other literally didn't really happen.

Star Wars shields don't stop projectiles...such as fighters. Per Episode IV and Episode I...and twice in Episode VIII bro.
Deal with it. ;)

Star Wars ships can BWAHAHAHAHAHA RUN OUT OF FUEL. Canon since Episode V. Shown in Episode VIII. Deal with it. ;)

@paytience: Legends which is directly subject to the higher canon sources. People always tend to forge that. The problem is that things like TCW existed alongside the holocron canon. Thus, the yields and such still don't really change much. As for this battle? Anything beyond Enterprise era trek wins.

That's jot how Legends canon works....like....at all. Sources and statements/feats stand unless directly contradicted by a source or statement in a higher canon work. The movies are at the top, novels and other supplementary material like video games comics animated series are next then at the bottom are things like source books like the Incredible Cross Sections. And yes, the yields change drastically depending how you want to cherry pick and high/low ball it.

Hey guess what......not Legends....deal with it.

Except for the fact that they do. Episode 4 was a special circumstance and Anakin flew through a hole that the Federation ship had opened to let out its own fighters that were leaving the hanger the exact moment Anakin crashed into it.

With all the incorrect statements your making I'm starting to wonder if you know Legends at all.

@paytience: They HAVE BEEN contradicted. The numbers were given in TCW. Deal with it.

Cite these numbers. Also, still wrong, the show and various other supplementary material like novels are on the same level of canon. If one says one things and the other says something else we deal with them the same way we deal with comic showings, there are high and low ends and we have to figure something out that makes sense, we don't throw out the showings that tell us our fandom will lose.

EVERYTHING is subject to the original trilogy. Deal with it.

Wrong. So. Very. Wrong. All of the films are on the same level of canon. Under them all of the supplementary material is all on the same level of canon. And under those is everything else. A contradiction and overriding only occurs between the levels going vertically, not horizontally. For example, if someone in the films stated that the engines all worked by running on kitten farts, guess what, that means the engines run on kitten farts now and nothing can say otherwise, and if it does then it is wrong and isn't considered canon. If one novel says or shows that turbolasers generate x amount of energy, and another says that turbolasers generate twice that, guess what? We work them out along with any other differences to the best of our ability, one does not hold higher authority than the other.

lol. What? Episode 1 disagrees with you:

Yeah, I've seen the movie. The novel also states that Anakin flew through a hole the Federation ship opened to let out more fighters. Nothing in the films says that there wasn't a hole there at that time, therefore that statement stands. Anakin flew through a hole in the shield. End of discussion.

@paragonnate: I sense a Trek fan who hates SW.

@sirfizzwhizz: Maybe he sees a chance for 'payback' after all those years of getting steamrolled?

Edit, I mean really, the whole old 'Trek will beam things through Star Wars shields' argument? Been debunked for years, yet he uses it now.

nice.

I mean some of this stuff is just flat out lowballing, and others are just wrong.

I love Star Trek. Back during the days of the Star Wars EU, you really had to perform some mental gymnastics to make a fight between the two rational, considering handbooks citing gigaton values for turbolasers. Now with the EU non-canon, its a bit of a reversal, at least for now, before SW canon rebuilds itself. (It may have already, I don't follow it much beyond the films)

All of that aside, 40k ships are crazy heckin' strong. Way to strong to take a fight between either of these space factions seriously.

Now I could be wrong, but the way I understood it that star treck ships and star wars ships often come to an impasse. Simply because star wars outdo them in firepower and range in a huge way. Although I am willing to concede that star wars cruisers are not hugely manoeuvrable in combat. As for leadership it really depends on who's leading either side because I don't know a huge amount about star treck but the empire's naval commanders are certainly not stupid or incompetent. To say that firepower doesn't matter is not really fair because it's not true. The death star really changes things but ship to ship Warhammer should take this with relative ease. With the death star, it could be argued either way. Also, this is possibly the most civil "star wars vs star treck" thread I have ever seen lol.

The Imperium tends to have vastly superior ships in terms of stats. The firepower on them is frankly absurd. The GE has a decent fleet here but I still give the win to the Imperium. Star Trek can't really do anything to the 40k fleet, the Imperium is literally on a different level in comparison. They're for sure not going to deploy strike teams even if they could get past void shields(and odds are they can't). If they did their strike teams would be lucky to last even a few seconds against the Astartes or Imperial Navy crew members.

@fromfurtherdisc:

StarTrek probably has the best hack gizmos

When you say hack, do you mean hacking or as in hax? Neither matter because neither are gonna apply much to the fight at hand and Star Trek usually relies on past experience and prep

but War Hammer can just keep throwing fodder and physic magic stuff, they have Billions of Planets, Imperium firepower is crazy.

Warhammer ships pound per pound are a lot better than star trek's ships..... This also isnt a faction fight or the IoM would steamroll the Federation of planets...

A single Space Marine alone boarding a ship could be trouble for Vader, most StarTrek soldiers are fodder but Kirk, Worf, Data, Seven of Nine have feats. Each single Space Marine will lift or punch with 5 tons. A Warhammer Psyker will counter 'The Force' with Telepathy / Magic Lightning

Everyone but Data are non factors, Kirk would get one shotted in an actual physical fight. Also Space Marines are higher than 5 tonners, that's just from an old rulebook and we have SM's do a lot more than 5 tonner feats a lot more.... Vader would defeat a decent amount of space marines, until a real threat approaches, but that's only vader, his troops are absolute fodder