Fear Lords vs Hell-Lords

* Dweller-In-Darkness

* D'Spayre

* Lurking Unknown

* The Dark Man

* NIghtmare

* KKkallakku

* Nox

VERSUS

* Mephisto

* Hela

* Surtur

* Pluto

* Satannish

* Witchfire

Scenario: Fear Lords go on the offense and hunt down the Hell-Lords by striking at their mortal sources of power: worshippers, temples, snagging sacrifices, trapping the dying in a state of comatose fright at the door to death. Then Hell-Lords are seiged by rebels and then Fear Lords sweep in. Dramatic banter ensues heavily, as demons are fanatics of rhetoric.

Battle Parameters 1:

Fear Lords, fuelled by the fear of the denizens of the Hell realms that is had towards the ruler of each realm, engage Hell-Lords as listed above, with Lurking Unknown and The Dark Man both taking on Surtur w/o Twilight Sword.

No reality manipulation

Even though Hell-Lords in home dimension, no omnipotence (curbed by draw on usual sources of power/souls redirected/stunted by Fear Lords).

Battle Parameters 2:

Neutral dimension but weapons of power amplification engaged: Surtur w/ Twilight Sword, Witchfire w/ four bloodstones, Nightmare w/ Nightmare Crown, all Fear Lords engorged on the fears of a galaxy

Battle Parameters 3:

Its getting ridiculous but let's shoot: the Fear Lords are outmatched and pull their final trump card and unite inside the Destroyer Armor! Fear Lords-Destroyer is able to separate Surtur from Twilight Sword and Witchfire from bloodstones. Fear Lords-Destroyer wipes Hell-Lords from existence and in the wake of battlefield, Mistress Death stands where the Hell-Lords were and she is not pleased.

VERSUS

Hope this sparks some interesting thoughts on characters that are infinitely interesting as well as deserving of more airtime. I mean, The Dark Man struck such fear into Odin when he saw the Dark Man's gift of a horse to Thor that he ordered the horse banished from Asgard! The bigger question: who is more fuelled, those feeding off of the fear of others or those who gain from the torment of others? And, shoot!

Nice match. Seems like the users are thinking out of the box now.

*Will edit for longer answer later.

I haven't seen the Fear Lords do anything really (aside from Nightmare) that would suggest they could beat the Hell Lords.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

I haven't seen the Fear Lords do anything really (aside from Nightmare) that would suggest they could beat the Hell Lords.

Me neither.

@ToO_RaW said:

@OmgOmgWtfWtf said:

I haven't seen the Fear Lords do anything really (aside from Nightmare) that would suggest they could beat the Hell Lords.

Me neither.

Dweller in Darkness had some neat battles vs the Defenders. D'Spayre however is not uber impressive in power showings. He does emit erratic feat and despair thru his powers tho.

Who the hell is Witchfire? I love Hell Lords and like to think I know a thing or or 2 about Mephisto, Satannish, Azmodeus, Satan, Lucifer, Thog, Daimon Hellstorm, Blackheart, and even Hela.

So who the hell is this Withcfire that came from nowhere?!

@Killemall Hey when did Surtur became force to Hell Lord status and working with Hell Lords like a equal :)

@CadenceV2: Witchfire was a former member of Alpha Flight, Gamma Flight, and Beta Flight (The Canadian version of the Avengers). She is the daughter of Belasco and fought the X-Men in order to control limbo and become its leader. She is pretty bad ass, though nowhere near the level of Hell Lords. For a time she had the Bloodstone and was going to release the Elder Gods back in 616. Some of her powers include demonic form, summoning demons, altering reality, creating forcefields, telekinesis, telepathy and general magic abilities. There is a respect thread on KMC for her that showcases all of her skils, since she doesn't really have that many showings anyways.

EDIT: Surtur really hasn't done anything with the Hell Lords. He was mentioned as part of their group, but was never present, because he was dead. I really think writers were just adding random people to the group.

@OmgOmgWtfWtf: Alright cool.

@CadenceV2: Surtur isnt a hell lord , had very weak connection to hell lord , not sure why he is included here. He however is Odin's equal or superior, making him atleast just as strong as any other hell lords if not better.

@lars_maximus: This a very nice Battle, made even more impressive as your a new user.

@Killemall: Isn't D'yspare that horrible jobber who Spider-Man nearly beat to death?

@laflux: I havent read anything on him. Sorry.

A hell-lords meeting should be interesting to watch.

Still I think Hell-Lords win by feats and Surtur(skyfather level)

Hmmm...hell and fear. You'd think the two would go together.

@laflux said:

@lars_maximus: This a very nice Battle, made even more impressive as your a new user.

@Killemall: Isn't D'yspare that horrible jobber who Spider-Man nearly beat to death?

I do have one battle with D'Spayr.

He is able to make anyone feel fear with a wave of his hand it seems.

@Killemall said:

@CadenceV2: Surtur isnt a hell lord , had very weak connection to hell lord , not sure why he is included here. He however is Odin's equal or superior, making him atleast just as strong as any other hell lords if not better.

Surtur is stronger than all the Hell Lords.

Yeah technically Surtur was counted years ago amongst The Lords of the Splinter-Realms, depicted above, when they joined forces against the Adverssary and Marvel readjusts the story of the Gods so much and long-standing characters in general and are not afraid to rewrite folklore (The Serpent that kills Thor at the end of the Ragnarok twilight of the gods is actually his uncle?!) Surtur is significantly more reality-threatening w/ the Twilight Sword but Surtur, like all Hell-Lords, is master of his realm and it is as much a part of him and thus in his home dimension of Muspelheim he has unlimited resources for power and feeds off of the realm's energies, just as Mephisto did when he went toe-to-toe with a feeding Galactus in his "hell". So Surtur has never officially on-panel been counted as a Hell-Lord but I would say that he qualifies under the condition that a Hell-Lord is bonded with his home dimension and can manipulate it's very nature as intuitively as thinking and breathing. That's why Battle Scenario 2 is in neutral territory where omnipotence isn't an issue.

Fear Lords

Hell Lords should win.

Why? Don't really know their feats.

hell lords

Nice thread mate!

Will come back this needs a bit of thought.

Hell-Lords

I always seen them as more powerful than Hell Lords.

This is a crazy battle

Is Surtur the most powerful here even though hes no hell lord ?

@jrupert1: What do you think about this battle?

Always want to know how this fight would go.

Right off the bat I'll start with the fact that Surtur doesn't belong here, but even if he did where he'd fit in the power rankings isn't as clear cut as many would believe. Of course I realize this is an old thread.

On topic though, it's a good battle but a hard one to answer, there are so many variables. They're just so different. A fight like this would probably never happen, and if it did it probably couldn't even have a victor.

D'Spayre (and others like Straw Man) in my opinion, generally tends to be shown as weaker than the likes of the Hell Lords. Nightmare and especially Dweller-In-Darkness however are easily on their level normally. Nox, and Kkallakku are even harder to place, they're implied to be up there with Nightmare, definitely shown to be above D'Spayre (and Straw Man, for consistent reference sake), but my memory and readily available knowledge on them is more limited and even more so for Dark Man and Lurking Unkown which is why I didn't even try placing them. However, a good example. When fearless Thor, was able to best Lurking Unknown but with a bit of fear was easily defeated.

The thing is, despite my mentioning of D'Spayre generally being what I believe to be below them, he has been able to amp himself to levels where even Dweller and Nightmare together couldn't take him out. While an extreme case, as part of their powerset and the availability of fear to utilize I'd say it would most definitely be a factor. The nature of them puts them at odds with Hell Lords. Hell Lords gain power based on their home and the souls they have collected there-in but Fear Lords, while they also increase in power and nigh-omnipotence within their realm pretty much the same as Hell Lords, they don't have as big a discrepancy between locations (save for Nightmare). Their power comes from a concept (the very mind of their target can become their home), that of fear (a specific aspect of it), and even Hell Lords are susceptible to fear. In fact, due to their nature Hell Lords are naturally teetering on that line. Where as the Hell Lords don't really have anything to give them a natural edge in some way like that, fear in some ways even ties into how Hell Lords draw in power.

When fighting the heroes of Marvel, both groups generally tend to enter frays where it's not so straightforward but instead objective based and contextual. Both play the long game (Hell Lords even more so I'd say) so using that as a basis to determine power is iffy. Hell Lords generally are out to get their souls, a harder concept as it's not simply won by killing them, and some aspect of that usually plays into how they are beat. Fear Lords attack through the heroes fear, on this plane of battle it's more a personal fight. Through any fear the Fear Lords get a foothold and the person is theirs, but if they overcome it, it tips the balance. Depending on the context, it's generally overcome (if it is at all) with the use of help from another.

With that said, I'd probably give it to the Fear Lords going off of the scenarios in the OP, Dweller being mvp, Surtur being a wild card.

There'd be more than enough fear to utilize and empower them naturally without the setup, but in the first battle it's fear overkill. The Fear Lords are empowered greatly from all that fear where as losing those worshipers takes power from the Hell Lords, such an act of losing power is something Hell Lords would fear, giving the Fear Lords even more control.

Battle two, again like I mentioned, most of the Fear Lords are not as hindered by where they fight as much as Hell Lords. And this is even more fear overkill. Considering just how powerful The Great Fear made D'Spayre, that was only going to be the fear from Earth and it wasn't even complete, imagine an entire galaxy, now imagine that shared among all of them, especially Dweller who created and greatly outclasses D'Spayre.

Battle three, well Death completely destroys any and all combatants here even with the circumstances. Both groups and what they do are like the diet version of what she (it) is (which expands beyond).

Now in a completely neutral battle between Hell Lords and Fear Lords (sorry Surtur but you're out for this comparison as you are neither, but I am looking at the broader array of each). I'd say it can really go either way. Hell Lords are maybe a bit more consistent among their ranks, as for the Fear Lords perhaps higher peaks and lower valleys... maybe slight edge to Fear Lords overall. Dweller, despite being hindered by the fact that he usually can't personally enter (due to being banished) the Earth 616 dimension his power has still shown to be a major force that can create and control all fear anywhere from anyone. Despite being several dimensions away and blocked off, a little bit of his power can make for a serious threat. Though admittedly for someone who remains mostly in the shadows (pardon the pun) the use of implied power is somewhat necessary in regards to him. But he has been empowering himself with fear from strife throughout time and he basically predates everyone else here. Mephisto and Satannish (you especially know this) are no slouches, but a good deal of the others are at least comparable. But any change in context or whatever can really alter any hypothetical battle, but I just generally see it benefiting the Fear Lords more.

@jrupert1: Amazing analysis! I really agree with everything

The average Fear-Lord should be above the average Hell-Lord as you pointed out, in fact, Strange himself said that for being one your power need to be in the cosmic scale:

About Nox and Kkallakku's feats....

Nox's children( Thanatos and Hypnos) defeated Clea and Rintrah while the Fear Eaters( Kkallakku's spawns) were overwhelming Strange:

Here.

Nox also used Nightmare as her champion, which should indicate that she's at least as powerful as him:

She has some other minor feats, such as:

Transforming people into werewolves:

Gallery

Creating wolves powerful enough to overpower the might of Achilles:

Gallery

Killing some fodder:

Gallery

Not even the power of Achilles could destroy/kill her:

Gallery

A single Fear-Eater could make Silver Surfer his own personal toy for a long period of time:

Here.

And Kkallakku is vastly more powerful than them. Anyway, Lurking only lost to Thor thanks to outside help:

Gallery

Lurking was physically dominating the entire fight and this isn't even him at his most powerful( Like his supposedly form that can hold the universe). Dweller being the MVP also makes sense.

Surtur might have destroyed a galaxy on panel, but Dweller destroyed a universe.

Bump

@laylah: Nicely done. I couldn't remember all the context to everything there, such as Lurking and Thor's first fight, so I didn't want to mention it fully and be wrong. But I do remember that in the second fight he beat Thor with next to no effort and was a completely straightforward fight, which is why I thought it was worth mentioning. Especially as an example of just how much any bit of fear puts them above someone.

As for Nox, I remembered that fight involving Strange, Clea, and Rintrah and the fear eaters but I recalled (and was correct) that he essentially absorbed all the fear from the people putting him at a disadvantage. Then of course he did the old classic bfr fake out to trap them. But that feat involving Nightmare and her, that's quite impressive. And I really need to go through my stuff involving Kkallakku, so it's fresher in my mind.

I agree about Surtur, which is why I mentioned him being there doesn't change things as much as most people would think. But I took him out in that final personal assessment for a more accurate comparison between which group I find more powerful. :)

Surtur one-shots them all

Lurking fled from Thor during their first fight( For some reason) and then almost stomped him in the second one....I guess it's the typical Fear-Lord's stuff of not getting too much involved.

Kkallakku has barely any worth-feats of mentioning anyway, but I recall one statement about her eating supernovas for lunch.

Yeah, Surtur is probably the most powerful in the other group and I think it was good to give more additional information about Dweller since many people here don't know nothing of his powers. Like, Dweller even broke the M'Kraan Crystal for god's sake.

Surtur can't compete with that.

No way in hell Surtur can do that.

The opposite team has one member that is at least as powerful as him and even in Surtur's own team there's Satannish, who should be comparable in power.

Yes he can. The Twilight Sword destroys galaxies, and none of the other ppl here can match that. Surtur can also just BFR them all to Sea of Eternal Night, gg easy mode boy

youre nothing but a brony what do you know

So what? It seems that your lack of knowledge is also followed by a lack of vision given that my post above pretty much mentions about Dweller cracking the M'Kraan Crystal( Which is a nexus of all realities) and destroying a universe( Even Lurking's true form is supposed to be so big that he can hold a universe). You need to prove that Surtur can BFR someone as powerful as Dweller when not even Agamotto could get rid of him and it's not like that matters anyway since Dweller's existence was stated to be endless( He exists before the 616 and will continue to exist even when next universe comes into existence).

I'm a Pegasister and not a Brony, but nice attempt to try to insult me by speaking of things that you've no knowledge about it( Again). Perhaps you should focus in learn how to debate instead of acting like a spoiled brat with no relevant arguments.

What do I know? More than you about this I can tell and for this not get off-hand like the Spawn vs Damion thread, I'll call a mod just in case if you try to insult me again: @jashro44

Dweller was a universal threat that the Phoenix Force used plot to beat (but didn't destroy). And even among Surtur's own team there are people who could bust galaxies (Mephisto and Satannish). And if we're talking bfr, ignoring the fact that it's a more difficult task against beings of that power, Surtur himself isn't above having it happen to him. For example Strange using a crystal with some of Satannish's power was able to bfr Surtur.

@laylah To be fair it wasn't Agamotto himself but someone calling upon his power, but it did succeed in banishing him. But this is completely irrelevant because Agamotto is on a completely different level than those here.

Oh yeah.

I forgot about this :/

@jrupert1: To be fair it wasn't Agamotto himself but someone calling upon his power, but it did succeed in banishing him. But this is completely irrelevant because Agamotto is on a completely different level than those here.

Well....It should have almost the same effect and only after a battle that was possible to BFR Dweller to another dimension. Not only that but the most powerful mage on Atlantis was the one who fought against him.

Agamotto can easily defeat him, though.

@traskindustries: Is your relationship with mods really that bad, dude? Look, I've no problems in debating about the thread if you keep things civil here and don't start a heated discussion.

I'm not in the mood for petty things such as that.

I was being sarcastic.

@traskindustries: Good for you.

So was I.

Nice save.

@laylah:I know you were insulted first but don't call other users spoiled brats.

Completely unnecessary. Don't insult other users.

@traskindustries: It would be.

But only if was a save in the first place, anyway, I don't wish to continue something so trifling as this discussion anymore when I already posted my opinion about the thread.

@jashro44: My apologies.

I'll refrain myself from doing that again in the future.

Both Dweller and Lurker have some high end feats!!

Minus Surtur, I think the Fear Lords take this!!

...Still very open minded if someone can tip the scale for me..??..!!

@laylah: Its cool.

bump

bump

@chiq: I'll give it to you that you're pretty dedicated in wanting this bumped.

OT; I really think that this could go either way. As has been mentioned here before, Hell-Lords are much more consistent while the Fear-Lords have lower and higher showings.