@suiken_seiji: Val is incredibly skilled but he is still a physically baseline human. You are claiming he could defeat a super powered martial artists, that is an extraordinary claim. You are claiming Karate Kid would be able to evade this technique Sumo Thunder Stomp
I like you try to use this, when Fat Cobra only resorted to it against multiple enemies. He's not going to use it against one person, especially Karate Kid, which is evident because he didn't use it on Iron Fist.
As far as fighting giant snakes, I have something better.
Colossal Boy, who can increase the size of his mass to gigantic levels, as well as his strength to Class 100+, gets one-shotted by Val. The page where he actually falls over from unconsciousness is on the same page where Val dodges lightning.
Also, the infamous lightning dodge.
Besides, Karate Kid doesn't need to smash open heads when he can hurt people more durable than them. Kryptonians, Daxamites, Colossal Boy, Ultra Boy, Micro Lad etc... He even chops down trees with his bare hands. But, I have something that can exceed Fat Cobra smashing a human skull...
This cyborg monster is strong enough to put craters in the ground and is also strong enough to topple buildings and loads of other things. Val punched right through its chest with a broken arm. I'm pretty sure that alien is more durable than a normal human skull.
fat cobra beats him to a pulp. the only thing kk got going for him is skill and cobra has centuries of training + powers. stop glorifying losers
Stop calling people names, first. Besides, Cobra only has one century of training.
@suiken_seiji said:
I already addressed to you about his sumo thunder stomp, now you're implying something i haven't said, KK being capable of dodging it. It's questionable he can, but I have no evidence of this, so I can't claim if he can or not, it's a 50/50 toss up.
It doesn't matter, either way. Fat Cobra only uses it against multiple enemies.
Insults and inaccurate information provided, centuries of fighting, when he's has one century. Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about, so you're the only one doing the glorifying, heh.
I never implied how exhausted he was, I merely imply he was exhausted, to what degree, who knows. Being exhausted in general to any degree, while being troubled with his mind, showing no chi except for one attack, and being able to tag and hurt FC to a point where it makes him stagger says something about FC. There's more occasions to FC being tagged as well by just physical attributes that haven't been shown to move at the speed through skill of being compared to KK, is what I'm pointing out.
@suiken_seiji: Val is incredibly skilled but he is still a physically baseline human.
I'll start by saying all I know about Karate Kid comes from these threads and Countdown. I actually know even less about Fat Cobra, although he strikes me as the more interesting character. That said, any claims of Val being a baseline human are nonsense. I don't care what BS the author is trying to pedal, but they are basically insulting the reader's intelligence if they expect anyone to actually buy that. Batman already stretches suspension of disbelief pretty thin; Karate Kid rips it to pieces and then urinates on what's left over.
Basically, what I'm saying is it doesn't seem possible to have a "serious" debate with him, because he's just too ridiculous. Dodging, grappling, or deflecting a person moving near light-speed is not physically possible for a human being. There's no way standard human bone and muscle structure would be able to withstand altering the momentum of such an object in any meaningful way. There's no way the signals from his eyes to his brain could even be processed before it hit him. Biology just doesn't work that way. Neither do martial arts.
In other words, debating against Karate Kid seems to me to be only slightly less absurd than debating against Squirrel Girl. Both characters powers are essentially "I win." The stated source of their abilities, whether it's "squirrel powers" or "advanced martial arts mastery" are both completely absurd and do absolutely nothing to justify what they are shown to actually do. The only real difference is that Squirrel Girl is a joke character who is done purely for fun and the absurdity is self-referential. KK seems like he's intended to be taken more seriously, although to be fair, I doubt DC would ever actually have him defeat Darkseid. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he did manage to dodge or deflect the Omega Beams, so it might be more accurate to say his power is more like, "I never lose."
Anyway, that's my take. KK wins because KK is just written to win, not to make sense.
I would like to point out that if we are using previous battles to gage skill it is nothing but useless arguement.Ready for this logic....One of Karate Kids biggest achievements is defeating superboy. Superboy is the dumbdown version of superman who was defeated by batman who in a cross over was shown to deadlock with captain america (however it has shown that captain would eventually win). CAptain america was defeated by Iron fist and Fat Cobra defeated Danny(iron fist). Now do i agree that iron fist, cobra or cap could be superman...no. Im simply remarking upon the fact that by using the reference of superboy or anyone else is useless. Each individual should be graded by their own abilities and the extent to which these abilities can be used. With that, I say Fat Cobra wins
ok here you go this shows sabertooth, man handle rogue who has ms. marvels powers, take a full hit from superboy, and is fine, and destroy she hulk. iron fist defeated him with no chi and he was blind. here is cap taking on thor. danny defeated cap and collosus putting up the good fight with hulk, and defeating venom and juggernaut. danny also defeated him. wolverine has defeted countless people. danny beat him and finally nightcrawler with his unpredictable teleportation, and danny still beat him
@deadpoolwins:): There are several things wrong with the scans you posted.
1) That Sabretooth fighting Exiles She-Hulk is Exiles Sabretooth. Both are from different continuities, and are nothing like the original She-Hulk and original Sabretooth. The Sabretooth being knocked around by Superboy is from Marvel vs. DC. The crossover is mainly fan-based, dictated by fan votes and the like. Plus, it's out of continuity and isn't tied to any major story lines within DC or Marvel. The scan with Sabretooth manhandling Rogue also has an issue. That version of Rogue doesn't possess Ms. Marvel's powers. In fact, she lost those powers and gained new ones long before that showing. Hardly counts. Also, Sabretooth has gotten more ruthless and has been upgraded more than once since his first fight with Iron Fist, not to mention that the second time they fought, Iron Fist was hurt so badly by him that he was unable to use his Chi.
2) Danny didn't defeat Captain America. The fight was clearly a stalemate, just after Cap blocked his Chi punch. Plus, that scan with Cap fighting Thor is from Heroes Reborn. That's also out of continuity.
3) Colossus has never defeated Juggernaut (post the whole fight, if you don't mind, because Colossus wasn't the victor). They have fought more than once and Colossus was defeated every single time. Colossus also didn't give WWH a good fight. He was clearly curbstomped in that fight, and even your own scan proves that. Also, your scan of him defeating Venom doesn't really show him defeating Venom. Plus, all Danny did was knock Colossus away. He wasn't KO'ed by the attack.
Superboy is the dumbdown version of superman who was defeated by batman who in a cross over was shown to deadlock with captain america (however it has shown that captain would eventually win). CAptain america was defeated by Iron fist and Fat Cobra defeated Danny(iron fist). Now do i agree that iron fist, cobra or cap could be superman...no. Im simply remarking upon the fact that by using the reference of superboy or anyone else is useless. Each individual should be graded by their own abilities and the extent to which these abilities can be used. With that, I say Fat Cobra wins
Batman has never actually beaten Superman. All he did was hold him off with a kryptonite ring, and use Lois Lane as an insurance policy. Captain America wasn't defeated by Iron Fist. The fight ended in a stalemate.
@Static Shock: Sabretooth has actually KO'd Rogue before, near the end of Mutant Massacre, without much of a problem (he also crumples a barbell between his hands like a tin can, and tossed Wolverine at least 15-20 feet straight up). He also once fought Ms. Marvel in her own series and kept her on her toes. The problem with using really old showings of Sabretooth, though, is that the writers really didn't seem to know for sure what direction to go with him. The attack on Rogue and fight with Ms. Marvel implied some pretty decent superhuman strength, which is obviously something that fell by the wayside at some point. There's also an old issue of Spiderman where he fights (and loses to) Black Cat, and it is pretty clear reading the issue that Sabretooth doesn't have a healing factor there. I don't think the writer's came up with a solid idea of his power set until they decided he would be Wolverine's prime nemesis and mirror image.
If you absolutely have to rationalize these discrepancies, I believe the closest thing to an official explanation would be that they were actually clones created by Mr. Sinister, with varying levels of tinkering.
@deadpoolwins:): There are several things wrong with the scans you posted.
1) That Sabretooth fighting Exiles She-Hulk is Exiles Sabretooth. Both are from different continuities, and are nothing like the original She-Hulk and original Sabretooth. The Sabretooth being knocked around by Superboy is from Marvel vs. DC. The crossover is mainly fan-based, dictated by fan votes and the like. Plus, it's out of continuity and isn't tied to any major story lines within DC or Marvel. The scan with Sabretooth manhandling Rogue also has an issue. That version of Rogue doesn't possess Ms. Marvel's powers. In fact, she lost those powers and gained new ones long before that showing. Hardly counts. Also, Sabretooth has gotten more ruthless and has been upgraded more than once since his first fight with Iron Fist, not to mention that the second time they fought, Iron Fist was hurt so badly by him that he was unable to use his Chi.
2) Danny didn't defeat Captain America. The fight was clearly a stalemate, just after Cap blocked his Chi punch. Plus, that scan with Cap fighting Thor is from Heroes Reborn. That's also out of continuity.
3) Colossus has never defeated Juggernaut (post the whole fight, if you don't mind, because Colossus wasn't the victor). They have fought more than once and Colossus was defeated every single time. Colossus also didn't give WWH a good fight. He was clearly curbstomped in that fight, and even your own scan proves that. Also, your scan of him defeating Venom doesn't really show him defeating Venom. Plus, all Danny did was knock Colossus away. He wasn't KO'ed by the attack.
while you may be correct about the she hulk battle, colossus has on various occasions man handled juggernaut, but juggernaut cannot die, so sure he didnt technically win. heroes reboen was a serious story line in the 616 regular continuity universes, and the reason why hawkeye is no longer deaf. a stalmate with cap, where danny had the upperhand and was not at his fullest. additionally danny has gotten a super upgrade since his sabretooth fight. finally the superboy vs sabertooth was not based on popularity, that was a different battle entirely, that battle was superboy vs spiderman. and iron fist defeated and forced colossus to revert back to normal, completely a win not a lose.
@deadpoolwins:): I can't remember a fight where Colossus had the upper hand against Juggernaut. All the fights I've seen ended with Colossus losing. Heroes Reborn was supposed to be a separate continuity, with Franklin's pocket dimension after Onslaught killed Marvel's heroes. That pocket universe was destroyed, and everything was retconned on Earth as it was moved to the opposite side of the Sun. Danny may have gotten an upgrade since his fight with Sabretooth, but I don't think Danny actually beat him in their second fight, if I recall correctly. Whether the Superboy/Sabretooth fight was based on popularity or not, it still wasn't canon.
As for making Colossus revert back to normal, I just looked at the fight again. Colossus was still armored up (and conscious) after Iron Fist hit him.
Batman on Earth-31 was able to beat superman however being as to how it is not in the normal continueity. Keep in mind that as the dark knight, he had no advancements made to his character accept age as far as i know (which actually would have brought his level down in my opinion). Since that is the case and superman doesnt age in the same way, if batman really needed to, could he not defeat superman since he would be younger and healthier than that in Earth-31. A little off topic and could be considered irrelevant so i will dodge around that and give you a new logical gage. As for the sabertooth arguement going on i will show another way this can prove that fat cobra could beat KK.
Lets start from the top. Fat Cobra won the fight with Iron Fist after iron fist had his "god" upgrade. With that being said, captain and iron fist fought and stalemated before danny had the upgrade. Meaning at this point their fight would be pretty different leaning more towards iron fist winning. But hey, it hasnt happened since he had the powers so i will leave it at that. Okay, now in a cross over(not based on popularity) cap and batman fought and stalemated. However batman comments on how Steve actually had the edge and would have eventually come out on top. Batman and val fought and it came to a deadlock until batman gained an edge. this fight takes place when val was sent back in time and found by Black Lightning who brought him to Bats. However it was brought to my attention by Static Shock,"When Batman and Karate Kid fought each other, it's important to note that Karate Kid was sick during the fight and all throughout Countdown. Plus, he was brainwashed, so he may not have been fighting to the best of his ability." However with the current given upgrades, it wouldnt have swayed the battle much. Not to mention it was never the goal to hurt KK which kind of put bats at a dis-advantage(kinda like a handicap for kk). Also it is not given that he was less powerful, so i will role with what im given.
With all of that, i will once again say, gaging a characters ability off of previous fights is not an appropriate way to accurately judge a character. SO if you agree, what i just said is meaningless and if not, then please explain were the logic is flawed here...Seriously this is kinda intresting.
I like Karate Kid, but Fat Cobra has formidable fighting skills of his own, hundreds of years of experience, every possible physical advantage including a healing factor, and magical techniques.
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