#1 Posted by mikemaximum (795 posts) - - Show Bio

Excalibur has reunited and wants revenge on the Avengers because of the AvX events. They attack the Avengers while they are enjoying their annual picnic at Central Park. Avengers get a four minute heads up. All current versions (including Thor and Vision)

Round 1: Morals on. Both sides seek to humiliate the other.

Round 2: Morals off. Both sides seek to kill each other.

Citizen Kang
Excalibur Special Edition Air Apparent
#2 Posted by Jake Fury (18615 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on how much telepathic resistance the members of the Avengers have.

#3 Posted by Owie (3734 posts) - - Show Bio

@mikemaximum: On the Avengers, are the girls Sersi and Crystal?

At first I was going to say that Rachel could almost solo them (although this is current, not Pheonix Rachel, correct?) except for Thor. But as I think about it, that's not necessarily true.

I'll try to break it down.

I know Meggan has become more powerful since Excalibur but I'm not as familiar with the exact scope of her abilities now. I'll just guess for the sake of argument that she and Crystal cancel each other out in their elemental control.

I'll also say Captain Britain and Herc more or less cancel each other out, although Herc would win eventually.

If we match up Kitty, Kurt, Cap, and Black Knight, then morals on the Avengers might win (Kitty being hard to truly beat). Morals off, Kitty and Kurt could kill them by dragging them into the ground and teledismembering them/dropping them from great heights.

All these match-ups leaves Rachel against Thor, Sersi, and Vision. And the Avengers have a four minute heads up. Any one of them would be tough. She took on Thor in AvX; I can't remember if he was one of the people she psychically knocked out in the end, but he does have psi resistance. At full power for him, he'd be very hard for her to beat. Vision has no mind to psi attack, and could turn intangible to avoid her TK. Sersi, like all Eternals, has high level mental training, and aside from her transmutation powers, has telepathy too. With all three of these together, I think they'd beat Rachel.

So in that case, Avengers win in the end due to Thor, Vision, and Sersi (they'd have some issues beating a morals-off Kitty and Kurt, but could probably do it eventually).

But, if Rachel simply telepathically takes out all the Avengers except Thor, Sersi, and Vision, then perhaps Excalibur has a chance by having Meggan take on Sersi, Rachel taking Thor, and Kurt and Kitty trying to fight Vision.

Complex battle. Hard to say definitively with the two phasers.

#4 Posted by mikemaximum (795 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: Yes. Captain America, Black Knight, Thor, Hercules, Vision, Sersi and Crystal.

#5 Posted by chiq (1961 posts) - - Show Bio

@Owie: I agree it's a complex battle. However I do think Meggan is a notch above Crystal. She's quite the powerhouse. What I am curious about is if Sersi can transmute Meggan and Rachel. Both have been affected by Limbo Magic during Inferno. PF Rachel was turned into a mannequin and Meggan was turned into the Goblin Princess. I know Sersi's powers aren't exactly magical so I don't know how that plays out. Meggan also had some resistance by being a shape shifter of sorts against Jamie Bradock iirc. Thor also fared better against PF Rachel then regular Rachel.

The Avengers have quite a number of powerhouses but the Excalibur team has two major ones in Meggan and Rachel.

#6 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

Only Avengers' problem could be their own members. Thor already fought with Excalibur and they couldn't deal with him. More: he protected them from Wrecking Crew in the same time. Problem is that I don't see Sersi blocking Rachel for too long. but since Vision won't be messed up by her telepathy, it is only a matter of time when Rachel will go down which ends in Avengers winning this battle. In stomp.

#7 Posted by IcePrince_X (4865 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Excalibur has this but not an easy fight.

#8 Edited by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666: In morals off what prevent Megan from tapping the power of Otherworld? She was the only one to become power enough to stop the Chaos Wave from what i recall. She has also absorbed the power of very earth and stood up to Galactus, he has also copied half of Phoenix Force power level.

Morals off Meggan could do a lot, but just to be on the fair side isnt that blond chick Meggan in human form?

#9 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio
@IcePrince_X said:

I think Excalibur has this but not an easy fight.

Besides Meggan, who - as it seems - is a suprise for me, who can really make a damage to Avngers? Thor, Sersi (at least not easily) and Vision won't be taken by Rachel's TP. And Thor already fought with Exaclibur. But I have to admitt that I don't recall Meggan from that fight.
@Killemall said:

@czarny_samael666: In morals off what prevent Megan from tapping the power of Otherworld? She was the only one to become power enough to stop the Chaos Wave from what i recall. She has also absorbed the power of very earth and stood up to Galactus, he has also copied half of Phoenix Force power level.

Morals off Meggan could do a lot, but just to be on the fair side isnt that blond chick Meggan in human form?


1.She stopped Chaos Wave? When? Wait, wasn't she boosted in last Cap.'s series(before CW)? She was lost in some dimension and then he started some revolution in hell absoring demon's energy, so I would assume that this feat is irrelevant for this fight.
2.It seems that I have missed a lot of Excalibur's great feats. IDK they fought with Galactus. 
3.This version of Phoenix didn't impressed me in fight with Thor.
 
Most of my judgement comes from X-Men series, Cap's last series (and last Secret Avengers), Secret Invasion and their fight with Thor. They didn't seem too special.
#10 Posted by logy5000 (5761 posts) - - Show Bio

Avengers imo.

#11 Posted by Owie (3734 posts) - - Show Bio

@chiq said:

@Owie: I agree it's a complex battle. However I do think Meggan is a notch above Crystal. She's quite the powerhouse. What I am curious about is if Sersi can transmute Meggan and Rachel. Both have been affected by Limbo Magic during Inferno. PF Rachel was turned into a mannequin and Meggan was turned into the Goblin Princess. I know Sersi's powers aren't exactly magical so I don't know how that plays out. Meggan also had some resistance by being a shape shifter of sorts against Jamie Bradock iirc. Thor also fared better against PF Rachel then regular Rachel.

The Avengers have quite a number of powerhouses but the Excalibur team has two major ones in Meggan and Rachel.

I could definitely see Meggan beat Crystal, based on what I've read of her before, but I wanted to be conservative in my guess. I think Meggan's shape-shifting could probably reverse Sersi's powers. I'm not sure about Rachel. They were both definitely affected by magic in Inferno but since Sersi's power is psionic I think that's a different thing.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@IcePrince_X said:

I think Excalibur has this but not an easy fight.

Besides Meggan, who - as it seems - is a suprise for me, who can really make a damage to Avngers? Thor, Sersi (at least not easily) and Vision won't be taken by Rachel's TP. And Thor already fought with Exaclibur. But I have to admitt that I don't recall Meggan from that fight.
@Killemall said:

@czarny_samael666: In morals off what prevent Megan from tapping the power of Otherworld? She was the only one to become power enough to stop the Chaos Wave from what i recall. She has also absorbed the power of very earth and stood up to Galactus, he has also copied half of Phoenix Force power level.

Morals off Meggan could do a lot, but just to be on the fair side isnt that blond chick Meggan in human form?

1.She stopped Chaos Wave? When? Wait, wasn't she boosted in last Cap.'s series(before CW)? She was lost in some dimension and then he started some revolution in hell absoring demon's energy, so I would assume that this feat is irrelevant for this fight. 2.It seems that I have missed a lot of Excalibur's great feats. IDK they fought with Galactus. 3.This version of Phoenix didn't impressed me in fight with Thor. Most of my judgement comes from X-Men series, Cap's last series (and last Secret Avengers), Secret Invasion and their fight with Thor. They didn't seem too special.

Rachel could tear Vision apart with her TK if he stays physical (although that's a big if), and the same is also possibly true for Sersi.

I didn't read the issue where Meggan stood up to Galactus, but of course PF Rachel stalemated a hungry Galactus on her own in a classic battle; she was pretty darn powerful with the Phoenix. I have also not read the issue where PF Rachel fought Thor, but it seems to me that she should have beaten him based on her general power level.

I just looked up the AvX fight I was thinking of in my original post. It's in Wolverine and the X-Men 12, and then again (with more backstory) in Avengers 29. WatX shows Thor hit her with his hammer, and she blocks it with her TK shield, then she slams him with a TK-formed hammer and knocks him to the ground. Avengers 29 shows about the same thing--he hits her with his hammer, which she blocks with a TK shield, then she blasts him with a TK or TP blast and knocks him down to the ground. Then, in both issues, Namor takes over the fight with Thor and she goes to fight Hope. In Avengers, this turns out to really be Prof. X. I misremembered the next part: I thought Rachel put everyone to sleep, but it was actually Prof. X. (Somewhat improbably, although Thor, Rachel, and PF-powered Namor were among those he made sleep, Jessica Drew somehow stayed awake due to SHIELD psi-shields). So I'd take this fight to show that Rachel and Thor are at least somewhat evenly matched here, and that her TP could potentially affect him, since Prof. X's could, but maybe not, since she's not as powerful as Prof. X.

#12 Edited by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio
@Owie
 

Rachel could tear Vision apart with her TK if he stays physical (although that's a big if), and the same is also possibly true for Sersi.

I didn't read the issue where Meggan stood up to Galactus, but of course PF Rachel stalemated a hungry Galactus on her own in a classic battle; she was pretty darn powerful with the Phoenix. I have also not read the issue where PF Rachel fought Thor, but it seems to me that she should have beaten him based on her general power level.


I just looked up the AvX fight I was thinking of in my original post. It's in Wolverine and the X-Men 12, and then again (with more backstory) in Avengers 29. WatX shows Thor hit her with his hammer, and she blocks it with her TK shield, then she slams him with a TK-formed hammer and knocks him to the ground. Avengers 29 shows about the same thing--he hits her with his hammer, which she blocks with a TK shield, then she blasts him with a TK or TP blast and knocks him down to the ground. Then, in both issues, Namor takes over the fight with Thor and she goes to fight Hope. In Avengers, this turns out to really be Prof. X. I misremembered the next part: I thought Rachel put everyone to sleep, but it was actually Prof. X. (Somewhat improbably, although Thor, Rachel, and PF-powered Namor were among those he made sleep, Jessica Drew somehow stayed awake due to SHIELD psi-shields). So I'd take this fight to show that Rachel and Thor are at least somewhat evenly matched here, and that her TP could potentially affect him, since Prof. X's could, but maybe not, since she's not as powerful as Prof. X.

1.In morals - she wouldn't do it. Out of morals - most Exaclibur are dead instantly, because of Thor. 
2.Current Rachel - and I've just seen in OP that these are current versions - doesn't have PF.
3.Wasn't Rachel boosted by Beyonder in her fight with Galactus? And there is also another version of Rachel with Blue Phoenix.
4.They fought in morals and I wasn't thinking about this battle.
5.Rachel isn't in Thor's level without Phoenix. And not just because she lacks feats.
#13 Edited by charlieboy (7159 posts) - - Show Bio

If Rachel psiblasts first and asks questions later I think Excalibur can win. And that fight between Thor and Excalibur was just bad writing. Rachel was the Phoenix back then. She should have decimated him. She can fight him fairly evenly at the power levels she is at now which is not as powerful as back then. Rachel is still and omega level mutant without the Phoenix and has knocked Thor on his but and blocked his hammer attacks. She also created a black hole and defeated the Fury. She hardly lacks feats. In that fight between Excalibur and Thor Kitty put the hurt on Thor by phasing him into the ground.

Plus Meggan is incredibly powerful as well. She once absorbed enough life force from the planet to fight Galactus. She had to back off or the world would have been destroyed. Don't get me wrong. I think Galactus would beat her. But she is easily one of the most powerful in this fight.

#14 Edited by charlieboy (7159 posts) - - Show Bio

Meggan can also shape change into people and mimic their powers. She once became a female Silver Surfer. She also can influence other's emotions. She proved immune to reality warping from Jamie Braddock. Between her and Rachel I don't see how Excalibur can lose. Also Rachel wasn't boosted by the Beyonder in either fight against Galactus. The only time she was boosted by Beyonder is when she was fighting the Beyonder.

#15 Edited by IcePrince_X (4865 posts) - - Show Bio

The Excalibur can unite as one team...creating a being that can smash the entire Avengers. Has anyone read that issue of Excalibur? Using Shadowcat's phasing powers to blend all four members, Rachel's tp to link their thoughts and other three bringing in their own powers. So with all their combined powers... they beat Avengers.

The comic is Excalibur #50 of the first series.

#16 Posted by Owie (3734 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Owie:

Rachel could tear Vision apart with her TK if he stays physical (although that's a big if), and the same is also possibly true for Sersi.

I didn't read the issue where Meggan stood up to Galactus, but of course PF Rachel stalemated a hungry Galactus on her own in a classic battle; she was pretty darn powerful with the Phoenix. I have also not read the issue where PF Rachel fought Thor, but it seems to me that she should have beaten him based on her general power level.

I just looked up the AvX fight I was thinking of in my original post. It's in Wolverine and the X-Men 12, and then again (with more backstory) in Avengers 29. WatX shows Thor hit her with his hammer, and she blocks it with her TK shield, then she slams him with a TK-formed hammer and knocks him to the ground. Avengers 29 shows about the same thing--he hits her with his hammer, which she blocks with a TK shield, then she blasts him with a TK or TP blast and knocks him down to the ground. Then, in both issues, Namor takes over the fight with Thor and she goes to fight Hope. In Avengers, this turns out to really be Prof. X. I misremembered the next part: I thought Rachel put everyone to sleep, but it was actually Prof. X. (Somewhat improbably, although Thor, Rachel, and PF-powered Namor were among those he made sleep, Jessica Drew somehow stayed awake due to SHIELD psi-shields). So I'd take this fight to show that Rachel and Thor are at least somewhat evenly matched here, and that her TP could potentially affect him, since Prof. X's could, but maybe not, since she's not as powerful as Prof. X.

1.In morals - she wouldn't do it. Out of morals - most Exaclibur are dead instantly, because of Thor. 2.Current Rachel - and I've just seen in OP that these are current versions - doesn't have PF. 3.Wasn't Rachel boosted by Beyonder in her fight with Galactus? And there is also another version of Rachel with Blue Phoenix. 4.They fought in morals and I wasn't thinking about this battle. 5.Rachel isn't in Thor's level without Phoenix. And not just because she lacks feats.

1--of course, she would only do it morals off. I disagree that Thor is killing all of Excalibur instantly, although a bloodlusted Thor is obviously very dangerous. What is Thor going to do to Kitty? Captain Britain could survive any standard-level Thor attack, he's way up there in durability. Even Kurt could teleport out of danger fairly well, and even teledismember Thor's head. And Meggan, again, also has elemental control and power-empathy.

2. I know its not PF Rachel, I just randomly brought it up early on and now everyone's still talking about it for whatever reason.

3. No, she was not boosted in her fight with Galactus. As charlieboy said, the time Beyonder boosted her was years before that. And Blue ("Phoenix echo") Rachel was years afterwards; she was supposedly much weaker in phoenix-echo form, and still made a black hole (also as charlieboy said).

4. True, they fought with morals on in the AvX battle, but I don't think that makes a huge difference. Thor would obviously go into a berzerker mode when bloodlusted, which makes him very hard to stop, but Rachel would now be OK with telekinetic dismemberment, telepathic mind erasure, etc, so it's just as much to her advantage to go into bloodlust as it is for him.

5. Maybe, maybe not. Telekinesis is a pretty good power. She could potentially pull Mjolnir out of his hand, for instance, or even just leave him high and dry by turning him floating upside down in the air. What I would agree with is that if she ends up fighting more than just Thor by herself--if she also has to deal with Crystal, Vision, and Sersi at the same time for instance--then that would be too much. But I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that she psionically takes out everyone on the Avengers except Vision, Sersi, and Thor immediately, then the rest of Excalibur helps her take out the three of them. With Meggan, and with Kitty and Kurt being bloodlusted, there's a decent chance they could do that. Sersi's transmutation is a real wildcard. I'm about 50/50 on who wins right now.

#17 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@czarny_samael666 said:

1.She stopped Chaos Wave? When? Wait, wasn't she boosted in last Cap.'s series(before CW)? She was lost in some dimension and then he started some revolution in hell absoring demon's energy, so I would assume that this feat is irrelevant for this fight.

Why would her other feats be irrelevant, Meggan has always been stated to be capable of drawing energies from her surrounding.

Just copy posting Mr. Master's post from KMC, about what Megga did during House of M, and she actually drew power from Beyond, the universe from which Beyonder as well as cosmic cubes are formed.

Meggan had to harness the Power of the Beyonders, as she entered the RIFT (Inside the opening in the Wall of Omniversal Causality)

"I can Harness the Powers of the BEYOND"

First Meggan draws energy from both Earth and Otherworld, to enter the Rift, because though the Chaos Wave has not reached the Breach just yet, there's already an incredible force pushing its way through.

Once inside the Rift, with all the Power of the Beyonders, her job was to hold the Chaos Wave for as long as she could while Captain Britain and Betsy Braddock (his Sister) close the Breach and Rachel Summers seals it from the Outside.

Meggan enters the Rift, and Harnesses the Power of the Beyond fully.

""Only She can claim the Pan-Dimensional Power of the Beyond for her own"

"Knows that by her side, ALL things are possible"

"Until He sees what she's up against"

Meggan (with the Power of the Beyonders) manages to Hold the Chaos Wave for a short while.

Captain Britain, and Betsy hold the Breach together while Rachel seals it

The Chaos Wave finally hits the Breach, but the seal holds.

Actually the Omni-verse kicks into action and seals the Breach completely

"the Cosmos is Healing itself before our very eyes"

2.It seems that I have missed a lot of Excalibur's great feats. IDK they fought with Galactus. 3.This version of Phoenix didn't impressed me in fight with Thor. Most of my judgement comes from X-Men series, Cap's last series (and last Secret Avengers), Secret Invasion and their fight with Thor. They didn't seem too special.

Meggan vs Galactus

#18 Posted by New_World_Order (13179 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#19 Posted by Tatsu666 (159 posts) - - Show Bio

So what about a bloodlusted Captain Britain.

#20 Posted by micahparadise (490 posts) - - Show Bio

This Excalibur line up is a tough one. Although that line up of the avengers was my favorite! Excalibur has three major powerhouses: rachel, meggan and captain Britain.

I see the battle looking like this:

Rachel engages sersi in a telepathic battle (Sersi has very powerful psionic abilities) while meggan defeats crystal and goes to help Rachel by mimicking sersi's ability. (Although Meggan is susceptible to telepathic attacks, Rachel's psionic attack levels sersi open for Meggan to physically engage her and for Rachel to blast her.

Nightcrawler engages black knight and captain america by multiple teleports keeping them occupied until Rachel telepathically renders them unconscious.

Captain Britain however wont last long against Thor or Hercules, so Shadow cat phases herc and thor into the ground like she did when she thought hor was the juggernaut in the excalibur series (i can see kitty doing this as she would remember thor survived the phasing into the ground in that encounter i mentioned.)

. :( I can see meggan and rachel and Captain Britain now having the opportunity to team up against each powerhouse on the avenger team (thor, herc and sersi )and taking them out one at a time against their combined assault.

Now vision is the problem i cant seem to find a way they would beat him