I've already heard that a few versus series guys on you tube are supposedly going to collaborate this one...when they get around to it, but I just want to see what you guys think....
Count Dooku
V.S
Exar Kun
The stand as the greatest masters of their respective fighting styles during the eras in which they lived, and were feared for their cunning and unyielding command of the force.
Now, I want an honest debate, from those who truly know these two Dark Lords. NOT A ONE-SIDED ECHO CHAMBER.
Eh Dooku could lose by virtue of Kun being a physical monster as well as incredibly powerful in the force. Dooku's chance is to press him in a duel and try to out skill him as quickly as possible.
Hmm, Kun's sheer raw power, monsterous build, and unorthodoxy can grant him the win. However, Tyranus has greater skill, experience, speed and refinement on his side. He's also tangled with unorthodox duelists who's physical capacity exceeds his own, for example General Grievous, whom Dooku could fend off no problem. Kun's best bet here would be to abuse his power. And, from what I know of him, we've never seen him demonstrate his Force powers in live combat. He's certainly more powerful, but he's never demonstrated bringing this full power to bear in the middle of 1v1 combat. And Kun himself is primarily a duelist meaning this will likely begin and end with their skill in lightsaber combat - where Dooku is superior. I'd probably back Dooku for a slight majority as it stands. It is an excellent fight, tho.
Hardly. Kun is the more powerful Force user, but he's certainly not one-shotting or ragdolling someone of Dooku's caliber. And he's never used it in live combat and prefers direct lightsaber duels rather than displays of power.
And, from what I know of him, we've never seen him demonstrate his Force powers in live combat. He's certainly more powerful, but he's never demonstrated bringing this full power to bear in the middle of 1v1 combat.
He oneshotted Aleema and Odan-Urr. He's never used his full power because there's never been a threat to warrant it.
You're right that he's primarily a duelist but then, the same can be said of virtually everyone. Kun's not an exception in that regard.
If you power scale, and allow logical inference to take place, I would go as far as saying Exar could flat-out crush Dooku in the Force. But if you have a feats only POV, with very little power-scaling and logical inference to go with it, then Dooku could very well hold off against Kun's monstrous power, and out duel him via being the more adroit and versatile combatant.
Aleema got back up soon later, and Urr was defenseless. And neither are Dooku-level Force users, anyways. And they didn't engage in a lightsaber duel during or prior to that.
He's never used his full power because there's never been a threat to warrant it.
Vodo-Siosk Baas and Ulic Qel-Droma proved enough of a threat to him as duelists(the latter fought evenly with him and the former has been stated as being capable of beating him in spars and stalemating him overall). He didn't abuse his power against them.
You're right that he's primarily a duelist but then, the same can be said of virtually everyone. Kun's not an exception in that regard.
Not really. Sidious, Yoda, Vitiate, Plagueis, are all first and for most force users who will not hesitate to use the Force mid-combat and abuse it frequently. Whereas people who are more primarily duelists, like Maul or Mace Windu, use the Force less frequently in combat. Since both Kun and Dooku are noted as duelists first and foremost, their skill in dueling should be the most relevant edge in this contest.
Kun is the more powerful Force user, but he's certainly not one-shotting or ragdolling someone of Dooku's caliber.
Well given that he's the most powerful of a lineage of Sith Lords including Freedon Nadd (who is "far more powerful" than Naga Sadow without even being in his prime) and Karness Muur (whose Force abilities "outshined" both Cade Skywalker and Darth Krayt), I'd say it's not outside of the realm of possibility.
Well given that he's the most powerful of a lineage of Sith Lords including Freedon Nadd (who is "far more powerful" than Naga Sadow without even being in his prime) and Karness Muur (whose Force abilities "outshined" both Cade Skywalker and Darth Krayt), I'd say it's not outside of the realm of possibility.
Aleema got back up soon later, and Urr was defenseless. And neither are Dooku-level Force users, anyways.
Well for one, your original point which I was addressing was that you didn't think Kun had ever used his Force powers in combat; I was correcting you, he's done it twice.
Aleema was out cold, that was the intent of Kun's blast, so I'm not seeing the issue there. Odan wasn't defenceless at all, he was just far less powerful than Kun.
Aleema isn't but I wouldn't exactly rule Odan out altogether, yeno, given that he pretty casually hosts telepathic conferences with thousands of Jedi simultaneously and can pick out individuals in that group, listening to their specific thoughts and relaying them onto others. Dooku has more feats, Odan lacks exposure.
Vodo-Siosk Baas and Ulic Qel-Droma proved enough of a threat to him as duelists(the latter fought evenly with him and the former has been stated as being capable of beating him in spars and stalemating him overall). He didn't abuse his power against them.
I don't think Vodo-Siosk or Ulic quite qualify as warranting Kun's full Force power, and given Kun's pride in his dueling and his rivalry with both of them I'd say it makes sense that he wants to beat them at their own game.
I mean, are you really going to the effort of looking for people Kun hasn't attacked with the Force to suggest that he couldn't do so successfully if he tried? Because if so, that's pretty asinine reasoning that could easily be applied to Dooku in any given situation where he's been pressed in a duel and chose not to use his powers.
Also? Kun wasn't exactly the Dark Lord of the Sith when he was sparring Vodo as a padawan, so I'm not sure why you're holding those situations against him.
Not really. Sidious, Yoda, Vitiate, Plagueis, are all first and for most force users who will not hesitate to use the Force mid-combat and abuse it frequently.
You're kidding, right?
Tell me, what did Sidious elect to do when he was faced with... Maul and Savage... Windu's strike team... Windu himself... Yoda... duel them?
Yoda... dueled Dooku both times he fought him? Made use of his lightsaber frequently during The Clone Wars? Dueled Sidious?
Plagueis... broke a treebranch in a fight that was otherwise solely a duel against Venamis?
See where I'm going with this? Taking out your lightsaber and using it as your main offence is something 99% of Force users do, Vitiate being one of the few exceptions.
So, yeah, it's not something that can feasibly be used against Kun.
Whereas people who are more primarily duelists, like Maul or Mace Windu, use the Force less frequently in combat.
Maul uses it plenty, and Mace is no stranger either. Again, they just use it less than their lightsaber, just like virtually everyone else.
Since both Kun and Dooku are noted as duelists first and foremost, their skill in dueling should be the most relevant edge in this contest.
Actually, the SWTOR Encyclopedia has Kun listed as one of history's most prominent Inquisitors, who are at least as reputable for their command of the dark side as they are with a lightsaber, but usually more so. But sure, he likes to duel other duelists, but he also responds to opposing Force users like Aleema and Odan with his own Force powers (basically oneshotting them) so I'm not seeing what your point is overall; he has the Force, he uses it when he feels it's warranted, and we know he's enormously powerful even relative to Dooku.
I mean, he wouldn't have developed so many combative techniques related to sorcery and energy projection if he wasn't planning on using them, which is why I'm just disappointed with the rehashed arguments used against him in every thread.
Well given that he's the most powerful of a lineage of Sith Lords including Freedon Nadd (who is "far more powerful" than Naga Sadow without even being in his prime) and Karness Muur (whose Force abilities "outshined" both Cade Skywalker and Darth Krayt), I'd say it's not outside of the realm of possibility.
Was Muur really part of that lineage?
Technically, yes, and he does operate the same way as the other ancient Sith; with sorcery, talisman's, and a life-long goal of becoming immortal. We also have this quote directly comparing him to Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos so I'd say that should suffice.
Credit to CT123, from his Freedon Nadd respect thread
Well for one, your original point which I was addressing was that you didn't think Kun had ever used his Force powers in combat; I was correcting you, he's done it twice.
He's used them in a combative manner, he didn't use them while dueling with his lightsaber.
Aleema was out cold, that was the intent of Kun's blast, so I'm not seeing the issue there. Odan wasn't defenceless at all, he was just far less powerful than Kun.
Wasn't Kun's intent to kill Aleema and Ulic, since he saw them as a threat? And Odan himself said he was old and that he isn't strong enough to stop it. He was out of his prime.
Aleema isn't but I wouldn't exactly rule Odan out altogether, yeno, given that he pretty casually hosts telepathic conferences with thousands of Jedi simultaneously and can pick out individuals in that group, listening to their specific thoughts and relaying them onto others. Dooku has more feats, Odan lacks exposure.
Those feats prove Odan is more powerful than Dooku telepathically, but as a combative Force user - he's never demonstrated anything to suggest he's comparable to Dooku, other than landing one blow on Exar.
I don't think Vodo-Siosk or Ulic quite qualify as warranting Kun's full Force power, and given Kun's pride in his dueling and his rivalry with both of them I'd say it makes sense that he wants to beat them at their own game.
It's a possibility. Especially given Kun's pride.
I mean, are you really going to the effort of looking for people Kun hasn't attacked with the Force to suggest that he couldn't do so successfully if he tried? Because if so, that's pretty asinine reasoning that could easily be applied to Dooku in any given situation where he's been pressed in a duel and chose not to use his powers.
Dooku has used his powers while pressed in a duel. It's been stated that Grievous pressed him in their spars, yet Dooku casually threw him back with telekinesis. He's been pressed by Anakin's assault on Naboo, and yet he still shocked him with lighting and threw him back with telekinesis. He's been preasured by Anakin and Obi-Wan and he still ragdolled Kenobi and managed to land a physical hit on Skywalker. The only times Dooku didn't use his Force powers in combat while dueling would be when fencing duelists with superior power to his own, like Yoda or Anakin. And even in some cases, he's managed to bring down a pillar while dueling the former and ragdoll Kenobi, use telekinesis to throw lamps around, summon bursts of lighting, etc. while dueling the latter. And he was on the losing side of some of these duels, whereas Kun was stalemating or outdueling his combatants and didn't abuse his power.
Also? Kun wasn't exactly the Dark Lord of the Sith when he was sparring Vodo as a padawan, so I'm not sure why you're holding those situations against him.
I was referring to their last duel when Kun was a Sith.
Tell me, what did Sidious elect to do when he was faced with... Maul and Savage
Use telekinesis to pin them to a wall, then proceeded to put them down and engage in a duel and even in the duel he incapacitated Maul via TK handily. He firstly used his Force powers, then fought in a duel.
Windu's strike team... Windu himself
He used a burst of speed to blitz Agen and Tiin and kill Fisto short after, eliminating the lesser threat. And then when he moved on to Windu, he's used telekinesis and then proceeded to duel him. Once again, Force then engage in a duel.
Yoda...
Zap him with lighting, then duel him. And after dueling evenly, resorting to Force powers to beat him.
duel them?
Yes... after he displayed his Force powers first. And even later on, he kept using his Force powers in combat.
Yoda... dueled Dooku both times he fought him?
During their first battle in AoTC, the two intially engaged in a battle of the Force. With Dooku throwing objects and projectiles at Yoda, Yoda deflecting and then the short lighting/tutaminis struggle.
Made use of his lightsaber frequently during The Clone Wars?
Killing battledroids, on the battlefield, not in a 1v1 scenario.
Dueled Sidious?
Initially, he and Sidious traded blows with the Force, then dueled with their lightsabers, then with the Force again.
Also, you seem to be forgetting an unarmed Yoda using strictly evasion and the Force beating Plo, Tiin and Depa in a sparring session:
"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."
And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council—Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all—had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him.
Source: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter
Plagueis... broke a treebranch in a fight that was otherwise solely a duel against Venamis?
And has also used something akin to battle mind as well.
Realizing that the fight could go on indefinitely, he took himself out of his body and began working his material self like a marionette, no longer on the offensive, instigating attacks, but merely responding to Venamis’s lunges and strikes. Gradually the Bith understood that something had changed—that what up until then had been a fight to the death seemed suddenly like a training exercise. Exasperated, he doubled his efforts, fighting harder, more desperately, putting more power into each maneuver and blow, and in the end surrendering his precision and accuracy. At the height of Venamis’s attack, Plagueis came back into himself with such fury that his lightsaber became a blinding rod. A two-handed upward swing launched from between his legs caught Venamis off guard. The blade didn’t go deep enough to puncture the Bith’s lung but scorched him from chest to chin. As his large, cleft head snapped backward in retreat, Plagueis brought his lightsaber straight down, tearing Venamis’s weapon from his gloved hand and nearly taking off his long fingers, as well. With a gesture of his other hand, Venamis called for his lightsaber, but Plagueis was a split second quicker, and the hilt shot into his own right hand. Sensing a storm of Force lightning building in the Bith, he crossed the two crimson blades in front of him and said: “Yield!”
Source: Darth Plagueis novel
See where I'm going with this? Taking out your lightsaber and using it as your main offence is something 99% of Force users do, Vitiate being one of the few exceptions.
My point wasn't that they don't use their lightsabers at all, and it is what 99% of Force users do. But my point was that people like Sidious, Yoda, Plagueis, etc. Tend to favor the Force more. Sidious's duel with Yoda was mostly a bout of the Force. They traded blows with the Force firstly, then dueled evenly with their lightsabers, then started throwing senate pods at each other and ultimately ended with them in a tutaminis/lightning struggle. Plagueis used battlemind and telekinesis in his duel with Venamis which was ultimately the result of him winning.
Maul uses it plenty, and Mace is no stranger either. Again, they just use it less than their lightsaber, just like virtually everyone else.
Again, not like everyone else. As I've shown, there are Force users who primarily will use the Force in combat. Heck, even when they use their lightsabers, their weapons act more like an extention of their power in the Force, similarly to Bane in his duel with Kas'im in PoD.
Actually, the SWTOR Encyclopedia has Kun listed as one of history's most prominent Inquisitors, who are at least as reputable for their command of the dark side as they are with a lightsaber, but usually more so. But sure, he likes to duel other duelists, but he also responds to opposing Force users like Aleema and Odan with his own Force powers (basically oneshotting them) so I'm not seeing what your point is overall; he has the Force, he uses it when he feels it's warranted, and we know he's enormously powerful even relative to Dooku.
Hmm. I think I'm getting the gist of your argument. If Dooku decides to use the Force against Kun, Exar will respond in kind with greater force. That makes sense. But still, Dooku seems to have more skill applying it alongside his lightsaber sequences, whereas Exar Kun doesn't. He's used the Force in a combative sense when thrown back by other Force users, but that's not while he engaged them in a lightsaber duel. I could only see Exar retaliating to Dooku's assault with his full force if there's a big enough distance between the two of them. But given how Dooku(unlike Aleema and Urr) would try and close the distance even after a Force attack and is actually armed with a lightsaber, I'm not sure if I view it as happening for a majority.
Technically, yes, and he does operate the same way as the other ancient Sith; with sorcery, talisman's, and a life-long goal of becoming immortal. We also have this quote directly comparing him to Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos so I'd say that should suffice.
Credit to CT123, from his Freedon Nadd respect thread
I see. Well, I still don't think that warrants Kun of being capable of one-shotting Dooku should such an oppertunity arise.
He's used them in a combative manner, he didn't use them while dueling with his lightsaber.
What's your point?
Wasn't Kun's intent to kill Aleema and Ulic, since he saw them as a threat?
Sure, but Kun obviously wasn't going all out on Aleema.
And Odan himself said he was old and that he isn't strong enough to stop it.
Very good.
The showing I referenced for his telepathic power was in the same time period as this, for reference. "Out of his prime" isn't an excuse.
Those feats prove Odan is more powerful than Dooku telepathically, but as a combative Force user - he's never demonstrated anything to suggest he's comparable to Dooku, other than landing one blow on Exar.
Like I said, lack of exposure. Unfortunately absence of evidence = absence of possibility isn't much of an argument, so it's up in the air.
Dooku has used his powers while pressed in a duel.
I'm aware, and there's times he hasn't as well. More to the point, I'm saying Kun isn't unique in the regard that he doesn't use the Force as much as his lightsaber, and that your reasoning for him doing so being because he isn't capable of it is asinine.
I was referring to their last duel when Kun was a Sith.
No, you didn't.
"and the former [Vodo] has been stated as being capable of beating him in spars and stalemating him overall" -Wollfmyth
I'm guessing you.. either mistakenly or subconsciously.. were referring to this quote:
As the Jedi Watchman of Dantooine, Master Baas spends much of his time on the planet and trains multiple apprentices at a time. His strongest apprentice, however, is a young pupil named Exar Kun. Kun's skill with a lightsaber is so great that he claimed victory over his master many times when they sparred together.
- Jedi Academy Training Manual
Otherwise I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Kun and Vodo sparred from, much less that they sparred while he was a Sith.
Very good.
He used a burst of speed to blitz Agen and Tiin and kill Fisto short after
Very good.
And then when he moved on to Windu, he's used telekinesis and then proceeded to duel him.
Very good.
Zap him with lighting, then duel him.
Very good.
During their first battle in AoTC, the two intially engaged in a battle of the Force.
No, Dooku tried to attack Yoda with the Force and Yoda pretty casually deflected all of his attempts.
And then they dueled.
Killing battledroids, on the battlefield, not in a 1v1 scenario.
So he can't destroy them with the Force?
Initially, he and Sidious traded blows with the Force, then dueled with their lightsabers, then with the Force again.
Correct, and as with all of the other examples you've conceded to, lightsaber combat was the primary struggle in each of them save for the climatic final battle of Yoda and Sidious. Point being that just because Kun's only been in a couple of real lightsaber duels, it's pretty stupid to suggest that he can't incorporate the Force into them just because "we haven't seen him do it". I'm still baffled by how people find it hard to wrap their heads around the notion that the Dark Lord of the Sith is some special entity who becomes inept in his use of arts he specializes in because he now has a lightsaber in his hand. It's a ridiculous argument.
Also, you seem to be forgetting an unarmed Yoda using strictly evasion and the Force beating Plo, Tiin and Depa in a sparring session:
He didn't use the Force, all the text states is that they couldn't lay a finger on him, and you're quoting Yoda out of context; he said the Force is a stronger ally than lightsaber training where lightsaber combat is concerned. The theme of the book being Darsha's attempts at connecting to the Force in order to make up for her comparatively primitive lightsaber training against Maul's.
And has also used something akin to battle mind as well.
No, he didn't, and that's directly linked to lightsaber combat regardless so it's a moot point.
My point wasn't that they don't use their lightsabers at all, and it is what 99% of Force users do. But my point was that people like Sidious, Yoda, Plagueis, etc. Tend to favor the Force more.
But.. they don't. If anything they use it less. :/
Sidious's duel with Yoda was mostly a bout of the Force.
Far less time was spent dueling with the Force than with their lightsabers.
Plagueis used battlemind and telekinesis in his duel with Venamis which was ultimately the result of him winning.
lol'd at the tree branch factoring into Plagueis' victory.
Again, not like everyone else. As I've shown, there are Force users who primarily will use the Force in combat. Heck, even when they use their lightsabers, their weapons act more like an extention of their power in the Force, similarly to Bane in his duel with Kas'im in PoD.
That would be the case... for every Force User.
Hmm. I think I'm getting the gist of your argument. If Dooku decides to use the Force against Kun, Exar will respond in kind with greater force. That makes sense.
I don't think it should have taken this amount of text to arrive at such a conclusion.
But still, Dooku seems to have more skill applying it alongside his lightsaber sequences, whereas Exar Kun doesn't.
And your only basis for such an argument is that "Dooku has more feats". You aren't directly comparing their knowledge of the Force, the arts they specialize in, or really doing anything outside of siding with the guy who has more to draw from. It's a pretty basic and easy stance to get behind and I understand why people do it, but I don't think you're going to get very far as an analyst if your thought process amounts to declaring "Dooku is more skilled than Exar because he used da Force more!"
He's used the Force in a combative sense when thrown back by other Force users, but that's not while he engaged them in a lightsaber duel. I could only see Exar retaliating to Dooku's assault with his full force if there's a big enough distance between the two of them. But given how Dooku(unlike Aleema and Urr) would try and close the distance even after a Force attack and is actually armed with a lightsaber, I'm not sure if I view it as happening for a majority.
In other words, you think Exar Kun is incapable of lifting his hands and using basic powers like telekinesis, lightning, blasts or illusions because we've never seen him do it while holding a lightsaber. Call me crazy, but I find that extremely asinine when we're discussing one of the most powerful, knowledgeable and infamous characters in the franchise whose niche in his original inception is that he's an extremely powerful Sith spirit with a wide range of Force powers the new Jedi were completely unprepared to deal with.
I see. Well, I still don't think that warrants Kun of being capable of one-shotting Dooku should such an oppertunity arise.
Given that Krayt alone is more powerful than Dooku, and he get blown off a cliff by Karness in a storm of lightning, I'd say there's a fair chance that his superior is going to manage something similar against weaker opposition.
More to the point, though, let's just drop the kiddie gloves for a change. Kun stomps; he's not inept. If he is losing a duel he's going to tear Dooku apart with the Force. Whether that be by unleashing an array of sorcery too advanced for Dooku to defend against, simply overpowering him with telekinesis, or wiping him out with a blast of concussive energy, he's going to leave the guy as a charred husk.
And I don't need a piece of literature or a TV show to first shove such a situation down my throat before concluding that it could happen. Simple logical deduction works just fine. Dooku dies. Next thread. Preferably featuring someone who can stack up to the Ancient's.
Honestly, Kun could potentially defeat Dooku in a strict duel, but that aside, Dooku just doesn't have an answer for somebody whose Force power so drastically outshines his. His showings as a spirit and his various accolades can attest to that.
@thevivas: The short answer is that the Ancient Sith are ridiculous but kind of obscure and hard to gather feats for. We're talking about guys with amulets around their neck that have allowed someone to tank orbital bombardment just by holding one in their hand, among any number of other silly feats; and Kun's the best out of them all.
@thevivas: The short answer is that the Ancient Sith are ridiculous but kind of obscure and hard to gather feats for. We're talking about guys with amulets around their neck that have allowed someone to tank orbital bombardment just by holding one in their hand, among any number of other silly feats; and Kun's the best out of them all.
@thevivas: The short answer is that the Ancient Sith are ridiculous but kind of obscure and hard to gather feats for. We're talking about guys with amulets around their neck that have allowed someone to tank orbital bombardment just by holding one in their hand, among any number of other silly feats; and Kun's the best out of them all.
When did this happen?
Lucien Draay used Ludo Kressh's gauntlet to survive said orbital strike.
@eisenfauste And the funny thing is, Lucien wasn't even channeling it's full power. He was only holding it, rather than wearing it. But that's the power of the Ancient Sith for you.
@thevivas: So Exar is beating one of the best swordmasters ever in a pure lightsaber duel? Exar has no feats to compete with Dooku let alone defeat him.
@thevivas: powerful yes, top tier? No but that's a different discussion. My point is that by accolades and feats Exar is never a comparable duelist to Dooku. Something you have claimed to be true but never delivered evidence for, instead you just claim something and when I ask you to prove it you just say that I don't want to see it while you have never delivered any prove to support your point.
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