Exar Kun and Darth Plagueis vs. Darth Bane and Darth Caedus

@shootingnova: Nah, it's very slim. I put Plagueis on Mace's and Dooku's level in raw skill. And Caedus isn't on Yoda's level imo.

@intrepid37: Honestly, Plagueis doesn't have anything to warrant being on Caedus's level. He's just powerful.

@shootingnova: Do you put Caedus on Yoda's level in terms of raw skill?

@intrepid37: Not sure - probably, based off his performance against Luke in skill, but definitely noticeably ahead of Plagueis. Just enough to get past Plagueis's power edge.

Caedus seems to be put above Plagueis, so I'll favor him here. As to Bane Vs. Kun that depends on whether or not Kun can close the gap. If he does, then he wins on the account of superior swordsmanship. If Bane can keep him at a distance though, he wins on the account of superior Force ability. If Bane loses though, Caedus might be able to finish Kun off, though I would also imagine he'd be pretty tired after fighting and beating Plagueis and thus might not be able to take a less exhausted Kun. He probably could though.

So in the end I give it to Team 2 for the slight majority.

And yes I agree with what everyone else here has been saying. Good, close battle.

@shootingnova: I don't think his fight with Luke is that decisive, personally.

@intrepid37: Based on...? The injuries both had suffered would indicate a level of relative equality on their part. Not necessarily equal, but close enough.

@shootingnova: What a about Plagueis' ability to switch lightsaber forms during combat? Is that on par with Caedus? I know very little of Jacen and that era in general.

Team 2

@jaken7: That is only a reference to his technical skills and knowledge. It isn't a skill feat.

@shootingnova: ...but he used that ability when fighting Darth Venamis, and easily overpowered him while doing so.

@jaken7: He didn't really easily overpower Venamis. Venamis is pretty much Plagueis's only legitimate dueling feat, and while it does show that he is very adaptable in his combative traits, Venamis is featless and can only be inferred as a very skilled warrior. Plagueis's dueling skill is just difficult to gauge. He should be about Mace Windu's level.

@shootingnova: That sounds about right actually. Yeah it doesn't help when both of their best feats are when they fought each other. There was also his showing when he stowed away on that ship with the pirates. His speed and quickdraw was impressive. He also casually defeated a Zabrak with a vibroblade (although that Zabrak was featless).

Windu level sounds like a good estimation.

@jaken7: But then, you would be reaching into the realm of speed by going into there.

@shootingnova: Yeah, it's what I was getting at. The quickdraw is more of a speed feat than dueling feat, and I'm sure Caedus is rather impressive on that end.

Although, moving as an unintelligible blur, and striking so fast it looks like lightning are impressive showings on Plagueis' end.

@jaken7: That wouldn't really matter considering Caedus's own performance against Luke, somebody who is appreciably faster.

@shootingnova: Luke has speed feats of that caliber? ABY is my least knowledgable time period post RotJ (I would like to change that though).

@jaken7: Luke and Palpatine are the fastest characters in SW. Their speeds are near-relativistic to potentially relativistic, or light speed.

@shootingnova: I knew about Sidious. Didn't know Luke was on his level speed-wise. Very cool. Is most of this stuff covered in the Legacy novels? Would you reccomend those?

@jaken7: No. Unless you read over the NR era works, and then some of the NJO era works, the Legacy novels are not to be read because they skip too much material and it becomes frustratingly difficult for you to find your bearings.

That, and both LotF and FotJ are hardly what I would call good stories anyways. A lack of synergy between the writers, a terrible execution of the plot, an almost complete neglect of characterization, a number of contradictions/plot holes between the different writers and an overall neglect for continuity in general is what I would like to say is not a very good story at all.

And Luke has a number of very impressive (and among his best) showings in the NJO era anyways. But again, you shouldn't read that from the onset, and should read some NR era works.

I did make a blog pertaining to what you should read and in what order: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/where-to-start-reading-in-the-eu/96920/

@shootingnova: Yeah, there were some pretty scathing Amazon reviews.

Sweet! Thanks for the link, that's immensely helpful.

@jaken7: Any time.

@shootingnova: To me, I've convinced mysel that the situation with Luke was the same as with Anakin against Obi-Wan; his anger hindered his control. Of course, that's just me, but I think it's reasonable, as Luke was Force pwning Caedus earlier on.

@intrepid37: That was never stated anywhere, and as I said, it's a matter of inconsistency. IIRC, Luke was actually trying in that fight.

@shootingnova:

You can't just ignore the inconsistencies though.

@intrepid37: I'm not sure what I would actually class as the inconsistency. That's the issue. Honestly, I'm giving Caedus the benefit of the doubt and classing his lower tier feats as the inconsistencies (those are stupid anyways), so he should win a slight majority.

IF Caedus is more skilled than Plagueis in lightsaber combat (which I agree with btw...), couldn't Plagueis' strength and speed be able to overcome his skill? (although I'm not sure who would be faster between the two, please enlighten me on who is quicker via speed feats please)

@shootingnova: *bump* Who do think is faster between Plagueis and Caedus?

T2 High Dif

Team 1. Plagueis holds Caedus and he might kill him while Exar most likely beats Bane. And Caedus wont beat Exar and Plagueis together.

Edit: BTW I think Caedus is non-canon now?

@intrepid37 said:

@_raptor_: Neither.

This is a very even battle and I could go either way.If I have to chose I would back team 2.Caedus could stalemate and eventually beat Plagueis,the same thing goes for Bane if he is to fight Exar Kun.So a slight majority twords Team 2.

Team 2. Caedus > Plagueis in a very narrow fight, and Kun can't beat Caedus (he would beat Bane in about the same time as Caedus would Plagueis).

Still team 2.

I'll go with Team One. I strongly believe Exar Kun would beat Bane before Caedus beat Plagueis.

There are no feats that suggest Plagueis is on Mace/Dooku's level of skill. Read The Tenebrous Way again or give me examples of Plagueis showing equal feats or accolades.

Exar Kun would beat Bane, before Caedus would beat Hego.

Team 1 takes this.

Caedus>Plagueis

Bane<Kun

I'd give Jacen getting his team the win with his endurance allowing him to beat Kun afterwards.

He isn't beating Plagueis and Exar at the same time. While Plagueis may lack skill feats his power allows him to hang with Caedus for a while, whereas, Bane's power isn't superior to Exar's and Kun's skill with a blade overshadow's Bane's by a tier and a half at least.

Bane is a weak link. Kun is physically stronger, exceeds him in skill, has superior showings of barrier/deflection, and has an answer to everything Bane can throw at him.

Has anybody considered what might happen in the reverse instance where Caedus and Plagueis engage the inferior enemies on each other's team?

Plagueis doesn't even use his power in fights that often.

@shootingnova: That doesn't necessarily indicate he wouldn't be prone too, especially considering Caedus's is a much more skilled duelist in feats than Venamis. We've already seen him atomize Maladian assassins and use his telekinetic abilities violently against the assassins, when he realizes he can't overwhelm Caedus as a duelist- what exactly is he going to fall back on?

On the flipside, Plagueis would immediately destroy Bane via speedblitz, outduel him, or by ragdoll. Kun should by inference of his skill last at least a few seconds to Caedus who considered Katarn or Saba threats.

@burnface: In sheer skill, Kun would be threatening enough last a few seconds. In terms of actual speed feats, no, he wouldn't. Not if you think that Bane would be blitzed by Plagueis.

Plagueis atomizing the assassins was because he didn't have his lightsaber with him. In the single duel we've seen him, he used telekinesis about once to snap a tree branch - not even a direct Force attack.

@shootingnova: @shootingnova: I said he'd be willing to use it in a hint of desperation, and or the realization of his dueling skills being insufficient enough to overwhelm to defeat Caedus. With reference to Kun even Katarn/Mara had enough time for a few exchanges with Caedus in their duel on Coruscant and Kavan respectively, and neither of them have showings in speed that are of great disparity to Kun.

@burnface: Caedus was injured, and Kyle was being saved by the fact that he had Valin, Mithric and Kolir by his side, which saved him from an amputation early on in the fight.

Mara's fight with Caedus is just plain inconsistent, but she does have better feats than Exar does in speed.

Plagueis might use it out of desperation, but that's still speculative and there's equally possibly chances of him not being able to use it at all because of how strained he would be against Caedus.

@shootingnova: You're right. IDK I've already spoken at length about his duel with Mara, and quickly glancing at your respect thread and from reading in Sacrifice- she hasn't got much that exceeds Qui gon in speed. My sole point being he'd obviously last at least a few seconds before getting stomped, haha.

@burnface: She has some I haven't put in the thread, either of out laziness, missing it, or just believing that the quoted sections would look awkward.

Still, the one's in the thread are still better than anything Qui-Gon has shown.