Evil Raven vs Green Phoenix - Battles

#1 Posted by teamextrodinary15 (2183 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

Who Wins?

#2 Posted by FortressoftheMoon (678 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

I didnt know evil Raven was really a batarian from Mass Effect. I need to check her out more I know Commander Shepard would.

#3 Posted by Outside_85 (4637 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

Since this is good Jean (at a low setting) vs. evil Raven, i'd give it to Raven. She wont have any compunctions against mind raping Jean or fry her.

#4 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

Since this is good Jean (at a low setting) vs. evil Raven, i'd give it to Raven. She wont have any compunctions against mind raping Jean or fry her.

Mind rapping jean, now that doesn't make any sense at all. Even Green Phoenix was a way more powerful telepath than Charles Xavier, Phoenix just gave omega level power supply and also enable jean to use telekinesis on a subatomic level if she wanted to. So No there would be no mind raping of the Phoenix.

#5 Posted by Roddy010 (4358 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

I don't know if Raven can handle Phoenix....

#6 Posted by Outside_85 (4637 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt:
Doesnt make her anywhere near invulnerable either or there wouldnt have been a need for any of the x-men.

#7 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@blacharrt: Doesnt make her anywhere near invulnerable either or there wouldnt have been a need for any of the x-men.

I don't recall saying she was invincible, i said Raven wouldn't mind rape her. it's possible she could beat her in a fight, but... Jean could throw Raven around like a rag doll with her telekinesis. Raven is resistant to telepathy but not resistant to telekinesis. She would have to out Will Jean and I don't see that happening.

#8 Posted by Outside_85 (4637 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt:
I see Raven flattening Jean by giving her a glimpse of her mind, blasting her to a charred skeleton by magic or simply smacking her around using her hands and teleportation. Or not bother and just bring out the Dark Phoenix persona.

#9 Edited by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@blacharrt: I see Raven flattening Jean by giving her a glimpse of her mind, blasting her to a charred skeleton by magic or simply smacking her around using her hands and teleportation. Or not bother and just bring out the Dark Phoenix persona.

Jean with the phoenix force is power enough to effect Emma Frost who's immune to telepathy in Diamond form, she has used telepathy on apocalypse anything in Raven's mind will pale in comparison. Secondly she would have to hit her with the blast, and her telekinetic shielding would most likely hold up. Jean could rip her apart on a subatomic level, or pummel her with psionic bolts.

#10 Posted by Cosmic_Falcon (2039 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

Raven quite easily.

#11 Posted by teamextrodinary15 (2183 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Cosmic_Falcon:
Why do you think Raven wins easily?

#12 Posted by Outside_85 (4637 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt said:

                    @Outside_85 said:

@blacharrt: I see Raven flattening Jean by giving her a glimpse of her mind, blasting her to a charred skeleton by magic or simply smacking her around using her hands and teleportation. Or not bother and just bring out the Dark Phoenix persona.




Jean with the phoenix force is power enough to effect Emma Frost who's immune to telepathy in Diamond form, she has used telepathy on apocalypse anything in Raven's mind will pale in comparison. Secondly she would have to hit her with the blast, and her telekinetic shielding would most likely hold up. Jean could rip her apart on a subatomic level, or pummel her with psionic bolts.

Are you seriously comparing the mind of an age old mutant with the mind of a demon?
Magic trumps physics on any normal day.
Sicne this is good Jean, she wont kill anyone.

#13 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

magic doesn't trump physic, anyone will tell you the two go hand in hand. Psionic energy if you want to consider that science sure, but it's the power of the mind over matter, just magic is the power to will primal forces into the user's desire. Both have rules that can not be broken. Raven is not immune to psychic attacks, just resistant to them, there is nothing stopping jean from turning off parts of raven's brain that could access magic or all of powers altogether. Either by telekinesis or Telepathy.
And secondly Apocalypse and done more F*ed up stuff than Raven could ever do, he also seen much worst things. So yes it is worst than a demon.

#14 Posted by Outside_85 (4637 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt:
Magic and physics go hand in hand?! Seriously dude wth are you reading to get this impression? There are reasons why so many magic fueled/based characters have a short at taking down Superman, a purely physical being when 'just' psychic wont have a chance at all. Psionics is not the ability to conjure a teacup out of thin air. The Spectre kinda made the point back in Infinite Crisis when he made war on magic, because it has the power to undo and alter what was considered God's work.
It wouldnt matter what Apoc has done, Raven's mind is ripped and torn from the very fabric of reality, her father is one of mankinds oldest nightmare demons, so Apoc can come to class whenever he feels like taking a lesson. It's not about reading memories, its about having your mind sent to hell.

#15 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

what are you talking about? seriously Everyone knows superman is weak to magic AND PSYCHIC ATTACKS which are psionics. And the only reason Superman can resist magic is because he was given a magical item to do so. So he actually does have a way to resist magic but not psonics.

You're just full of speculations about what apocalypse knows i'm betting you haven't read up on him. because that's what it sounds like.

#16 Posted by Cosmic_Falcon (2039 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@teamextrodinary15 said:

@Cosmic_Falcon: Why do you think Raven wins easily?

Because Green Phoenx is a jobber. At her peak Raven was shown to be universal level, Green Phoenix hasn't.

#17 Posted by Outside_85 (4637 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt:
And you have no idea who Raven or what magic is apparently. Also why should i care what Apoc has done? He's one of the oldest mutants around, means he's just some guy with alot of time on his hands, nothing is particularly horrorfying about him.
Superman isnt allergic to magic the way he is to red sunlight and kryptonite, it just the nature of magic that treats him the same way it treats every other joe smoe without proper protection.

#18 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Outside_85: Actually i loved the teen titans series and read a lot of it, i know exactly who Raven is daughter of Trigon.

#19 Edited by Cosmic_Falcon (2039 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt said:

@Outside_85: Actually i loved the teen titans series and read a lot of it, i know exactly who Raven is daughter of Trigon.

lol you've never read a single Teen Titan comic..I'll bet you can't even name the volume or series that scan is from.

#20 Posted by Outside_85 (4637 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt:
Sure doesnt sound like it.

#21 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

@blacharrt: Sure doesnt sound like it.

Actually have and i continued to read them after they because Titans, and the new team of Teen titans as well. I stopped after Inifinity Crisis.

#22 Posted by Outside_85 (4637 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

You bring up a fair point actually...Raven could just port Jean to hell and leave her there the same way she did with Sebastian Blood and his croonies.

#23 Posted by Roddy010 (4358 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Outside_85: Nice scan...Comparing Magic and Psionics is like compairing Telepathy and Empathy...Sure one is more versatile than the other however it doesn't make one more or less effective than the other...

@Cosmic_Falcon said:

@teamextrodinary15 said:
@Cosmic_Falcon: Why do you think Raven wins easily?
Because Green Phoenx is a jobber. At her peak Raven was shown to be universal level, Green Phoenix hasn't.

Using the life force of Storm and Quasar Jean was able to telekineticlly hold together the M'Kraan crystal which threaten the universe when she was Green Phoenix...I can really see this going either way now...

@blacharrt: Raven's mind is much much more dark than anything Apocolypse could imagine and he hasn't done/seen a fraction of the evil that Trigon can unleash...That being said Apocc shouldn't even be mentioned in this battle...

Jean Grey had problems when she entered both Rogue and Mystique's minds...If she were to defeat Raven I would't use psychic probing or any type of connection with the mind what so ever...Her best bets are psi-bolts or telekinesis...If she goes into Raven's mind I can see this happening but far worst....

#24 Edited by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Roddy010: Good Point. question what issue is this from? If you don't know that okay, i am trying to figure out which jean this is.

#25 Posted by Roddy010 (4358 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt: X-Men Forver 2 #5....

#26 Posted by LordMaverick (4388 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

daughter of trigon...........

#27 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Roddy010 said:

@blacharrt: X-Men Forver 2 #5....

then it's not canon.

#28 Posted by Roddy010 (4358 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt said:

@Roddy010 said:
@blacharrt: X-Men Forver 2 #5....
then it's not canon.

Correct it isn't canon...However there is only one Phoenix in all realities...She has the exact same powerset as her 616 counterpart....

#29 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Roddy010 said:

@blacharrt said:
@Roddy010 said:
@blacharrt: X-Men Forver 2 #5....
then it's not canon.
Correct it isn't canon...However there is only one Phoenix in all realities...She has the exact same powerset as her 616 counterpart....

you'd like to think that was true but, Chris Clairmont himself stated that he started the series where he left off, forgoing everything else. That's 616 green phoenix. their feat aren't the same.

#30 Edited by Roddy010 (4358 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt said:

@Roddy010 said:
@blacharrt said:
@Roddy010 said:
@blacharrt: X-Men Forver 2 #5....
then it's not canon.
Correct it isn't canon...However there is only one Phoenix in all realities...She has the exact same powerset as her 616 counterpart....
you'd like to think that was true but, Chris Clairmont himself stated that he started the series where he left off, forgoing everything else. That's 616 green phoenix. their feat aren't the same.

Okay gotcha...But that still doesn't mean Jean can survive having Raven share her evil...They don't have the same feats but they have the same powerset...Phoenix is the same in every universe...The only difference is none of the other counterparts have bonded with Phoenix and became WPOTC..
Edit: Claremont said that this comic is an alternate continuity as the 616 universe which means The scan above is apart was not retconned from the series...

#31 Posted by Phylos (2525 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

i will give this one to raven, although it wont be that easy.

#32 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Roddy010 said:

@blacharrt said:
@Roddy010 said:
@blacharrt said:
@Roddy010 said:
@blacharrt: X-Men Forver 2 #5....
then it's not canon.
Correct it isn't canon...However there is only one Phoenix in all realities...She has the exact same powerset as her 616 counterpart....
you'd like to think that was true but, Chris Clairmont himself stated that he started the series where he left off, forgoing everything else. That's 616 green phoenix. their feat aren't the same.
Okay gotcha...But that still doesn't mean Jean can survive having Raven share her evil...They don't have the same feats but they have the same powerset...Phoenix is the same in every universe...The only difference is none of the other counterparts have bonded with Phoenix and became WPOTC.. Edit: Claremont said that this comic is an alternate continuity as the 616 universe which means The scan above is apart was not retconned from the series...

Here is the interview with Clarmont on continuity, the scan doesn't need to be retconned because it never happened to 616 Jean Grey. But Jean Grey powered by the phoenix is a whole different ballgame. But i i''m sure you know what the color suits represent in jean and her connection to the phoenix. Green means she hasn't fully merged with the phoenix force, and Red mean the Phoenix entity is slightly more merged with her personality. after the dark phoenix saga, she went right back to green phoenix jean, but later changed the color of the suit. She doesn't have a different powerset than dark phoenix, jean she consciously hasn't accessed that power. Which means Raven doesn't really stand a snowball's chance in hell of overpowering her with the phoenix force. Regular Jean, again is a stronger telepath than charles xavier, which says a lot, with the phoenix force and undefined amount stronger.

#33 Posted by Outside_85 (4637 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

Still, Jean (as Jean) is still only human and as long as she is the one in the drivers seat, she is not going to come out sane if she braves Raven's head.

#34 Posted by Roddy010 (4358 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt: I don't see the interview...I know plenty on the transformation/evolution of Phoenix (I'm a Phoenix fan) so there really no need to give me a run down...
Green=Good
This was Phoenix aftter she had taken a piece of Jean's psyche...Jean was just discovering her new found powers and as you already stated wasn't fully merged with the force...She does is enormously powerful but limits hersel and has been taken out by people that she is far superior too in power(i.e. Magneto).which is why Raven stands a chance in this battle...
Red=Bad
Dark Phoenix is the bloodlusted version of Phoenix/Jean Grey...Because Phoenix had spent so much time with Jean's psyche she became confused by human emotions...Something abstracts are not suppose to have...Add on the tamperings of Mastermind and The Hellfire Club and Dark Phoenix was born...The difference between Green and Red is that Dark Phoenix doesn't limit herself...She still had limits however her thirst for power was alot more vigorous than normal Jean/Phoenix...
White=Pure
This is the final level of the Phoenix evolution...Jean Grey (616) was the only version of Phoenix to achieve this...
I agree that Raven stands absolutely no chance against Dark Phoenix or WPOTC, however
Green Phoenix/Jean Grey is a different story...

#35 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Roddy010 said:

@blacharrt: I don't see the interview...I know plenty on the transformation/evolution of Phoenix (I'm a Phoenix fan) so there really no need to give me a run down... Green=Good This was Phoenix aftter she had taken a piece of Jean's psyche...Jean was just discovering her new found powers and as you already stated wasn't fully merged with the force...She does is enormously powerful but limits hersel and has been taken out by people that she is far superior too in power(i.e. Magneto).which is why Raven stands a chance in this battle... Red=Bad Dark Phoenix is the bloodlusted version of Phoenix/Jean Grey...Because Phoenix had spent so much time with Jean's psyche she became confused by human emotions...Something abstracts are not suppose to have...Add on the tamperings of Mastermind and The Hellfire Club and Dark Phoenix was born...The difference between Green and Red is that Dark Phoenix doesn't limit herself...She still had limits however her thirst for power was alot more vigorous than normal Jean/Phoenix... White=Pure This is the final level of the Phoenix evolution...Jean Grey (616) was the only version of Phoenix to achieve this... I agree that Raven stands absolutely no chance against Dark Phoenix or WPOTC, however Green Phoenix/Jean Grey is a different story...

it's not as simple as good bad pure, the isn't evil and can't really be bad. the color represent how much she merged with the phoenix force. green she had a conscious fear of it and maintain her personality separating the two. Red she was overtaken by the Phoenix force, using her emotions to experience new things, White she completely merged with the Phoenix force.

#36 Posted by Roddy010 (4358 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt:
Here we have Jean in WHR...She notices the change in her costume and refers to the green and red as good and bad...At this time she hadn't known that the piece of her psyche had merged with Phoenix after she died...The rest of her psyche was still jin her body in the cacoon...Later she FULLY merged with the Phoenix...

#37 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

okay

#38 Posted by randumo24 (4640 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Cosmic_Falcon said:

@teamextrodinary15 said:
@Cosmic_Falcon: Why do you think Raven wins easily?
Because Green Phoenx is a jobber. At her peak Raven was shown to be universal level, Green Phoenix hasn't.

You're talking about a power that took down Galactus. I don't think that's jobber level.

#39 Posted by Outside_85 (4637 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@randumo24:
As i understand it, that power is only getting vented when the dress is either white or red.

#40 Posted by randumo24 (4640 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

The green phoenix that took down Galactus was Rachel, after she had her power lowered. Jean was more powerful as phoenix than Rachel was.

#41 Posted by Roddy010 (4358 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@blacharrt: I'm not eactly sure what you were trying to argue, but you were correct in some point...I just dugged a little deeper into the transformation...Jean/Green Phoenix limited itself because Phoenix foretold herself becoming Dark Phoenix...When Jean absorbed Xavier's mind she mentions that Phoenix has put a lock on her true potential which is why she lost against Magneto..

#42 Posted by Roddy010 (4358 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@randumo24 said:

The green phoenix that took down Galactus was Rachel, after she had her power lowered. Jean was more powerful as phoenix than Rachel was.

That was Phoenix Force manifesting itself as Rachel...And also Galactus wasn't fully powered...It really wasn't a fair battle...But I do agree Phoenix is much more powerful than what they are making her out to be...

#43 Posted by randumo24 (4640 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

Who else lol'd when WPOTC was mentioned?

#44 Posted by blacharrt (1552 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@Roddy010: i was just agreeing with you that's all. I noticed we were at the same point.

#45 Posted by randumo24 (4640 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

Green Phoenix has the same power abilities as Dark Phoenix, DP is basically a bloodlusted GP.

#46 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (2881 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

Green Phoenix.

#47 Posted by sa5m (2112 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

Green Phoenix.

#48 Posted by randumo24 (4640 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

#49 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3069 posts) - 1 year, 11 months ago - Show Bio

Phoenix wins, just like every other thread with a different incarnation of Jean vs Raven.

#50 Posted by emmo_frost (26 posts) - 1 year, 10 months ago - Show Bio

Phoenix, she can restored her power, and keep battleling, raven will get tired at some point, and in terms of power, phoenix is just... phoenix. What stops gp from using cosmic powers? what stops phoenix from resurrecting jean if it is necesary? what stops phoenix from using telepathy to calm down evil raven? nothing