Esquire's Tourney: ToO_RaW vs Dane

When are they due?

@Esquire said:

@ToO_RaW said:

When are they due?

Not sure what you're asking. You can start debating whenever now that your thread is up, and we'll probably end the first round in a couple of weeks, once everyone's had some time to get some debates up.

I am used to a different style of tournament. From my experience, you are given the scenario and then given time to write a strategy. Each person submits their strat and then they debate. I understand how this works now though. Thanks.

I honestly think this would be easy for my team to win.

Nightcrawler could teleport into the sky and get a good look at wheret the enemy is heading and who they are, and then TP back to his team to give them the intel. NC Will recognize DS because DS is on his team and he will recognize Omega Red from past experiences

Now that Nightcrawler is aware of Omega Red he could simply BFR him as far away as he can. Now it's a 3v1.

Mystique has encountered Omega Red before so she could transform into him and then confuse Dane's Deathstroke. If he falls for it, he's done for via sneak attack. If he doesn't fall for it, it's a 3v1 with a bloodlusted teleporter.

Not to mention Deathstroke (Bloodlusted) VS Deathstroke (In character) would probably go to the bloodlusted one.

The weapons Dane has won't affect Night Crawler either as he casually dodges bullets and explosives on a regular.

@boschePG said:

@ToO_RaW: teleporting BFR is not allowed. its in the rules

I don't see it up there...

Ah. Well, there goes that.

Still, another way for them to win would be Night Crawler sees that Deathstroke is also on the enemy team and he teleports him back to my team. My team gangs up on him. All my characters are bloodlusted so they'd make quick work of him and then all 3 would triple team Omega Red.

What are your thoughts?

@Dane said:

@ToO_RaW:
My thoughts on that are I have Deathstroke with 45 minutes prep time. He also gets the names and powers of your teammates and their powers. Now Omega Red knows Nightcrawler and Mystique very well. He can give Deathstroke even more information about them.
Do you really think he's going to do something stupid like walk out into the open so you can use him as a teleportation juggle ball?

Mystique has encountered Omega Red before so she could transform into him and then confuse Dane's Deathstroke. If he falls for it, he's done for via sneak attack. If he doesn't fall for it, it's a 3v1 with a bloodlusted teleporter.

If my teammates stick together, which they would, that would be a tragic plan. First of all, Deathstroke is not a moron. He's far too intelligent to fall for that. Second of all, the second my Omega Red grabs your Omega Red, then Mystique is absolutely screwed.

Not to mention Deathstroke (Bloodlusted) VS Deathstroke (In character) would probably go to the bloodlusted one.

Do you really think Deathstroke isn't willing to kill all of the time? Bloodlust does nothing for Deathstroke. This is not an indicator of berserker rage, it's the willingness to kill.

"3 - All your characters are Bloodlusted; their intelligence and emotional state is unaffected, but they will kill without hesitation or remorse."

It doesn't say anything about a fighting skill boost.

I already had bloodlust by default for both my guys. Here Slade chops a guy in half for a microchip in his brain.

Names and powers are fine. Your Intel has nothing about a blood lusted Nighcrawler. There is also no way Deathstroke or Omega Red could possibly know where to be looking for NC to materialize. Spiderman can't even do this. As soon as he ports into the sky and sees Deathstroke, all he has to do it touch him and port back to his side of the block for my team to beat him down. In the following scan Night Crawler is capable of porting in front of already fired bullets, grabbing a dude and then porting away with him. Just because Deathstroke has tagged faster people running in straight lines it doesn't mean he can tag a bloodlusted teleporter who's fast enough to jump in front of bullets and then jump out of the way.

You're using Cyclops as an example to say DeathStroke can tag Night Crawler. For one, Cyclop's Eye beams have been clocked at light speed. Secondly, Cyclops is a long time friend and teammate of NightCrawler. He knows how he fights. Omega Red does not. Thirdly, that was a training excercise. It's not a bloodlusted Night Crawler.

Your Omega Red scan is Night Crawler trying to save a little girl. Hardly a fair example.

And your Deathstroke is not bloodlusted. Deathstroke has morals. His 45 minutes of prep wont save him from a teleporting back to my side of the arena.

@Dane said:

@ToO_RaW: bump?

I'm going to respond today. Been quite busy. =)

@Dane said:

Actually, yes it does. Because The Flash is faster than bullets. I thought that was pretty obvious.

Flash was running in straight line. Night Crawler is a teleporter. Incomparable.

You keep using the word 'bloodlust' as if it indicates some dramatic improvement in skill. Please stop doing that, I've already disproved it. It means 'willing to kill' and without teledrop or teledismemberment you have literally no way for Nightcrawler to hurt Deathstroke or Omega Red.

I'm not trying to say he has a dramatic skill boost at all. The bold in your quote would suggest that you agree Night Crawler is capable of touching Deathstroke and teledropping him. However, that's not my argument. I'm saying NC simply has to touch DS and then bring him back to my team. By your own admission, this is possible. Once he's on my side, all three of my team members would easily take him out.

Slade's blasting staff has tagged 3 different speedsters, Superboy, Superman, Starfire and Wonder Girl. If you argument is 'Nightcrawler is faster than The Flash and Superman' than feel free to stick with that. I don't think it'll win a lot of votes.

Again, your using feats where he's tagged runners and flyers. He's not fighting a runner or a flyer here. He's fighting a teleporter.

Also, Cyclops optic beams might be lightspeed. Might be. But the speed at which he can produce a blast is absolutely not.
Read the captions. He could never get a blast off at the speed of light. Firstly, his reaction speed and the act of turning his head are not even close to lightspeed. Secondly, the motors controlling his visor are themselves much slower than lightspeed. So saying he can fire a blast at that speed is incorrect, even if the energy travels at that speed. Which has never been conclusively proven in itself.

All Cyclops has to be doing is looking at NC. You can't use light speed beams as a means of saying DS can tag a bloodlusted Night Crawler...

I don't actually know why you'd use Spider-Man as an example for Nightcrawler. Post the scans because I know the only time they've fought and Nightcrawler basically just suckerpunches him from behind. That has no relation to what I've told you.
Firstly, that's ignoring Spider-Man's Spider-Sense outright. Secondly, Spider-Man doesn't have any other enhanced senses. Daredevil and Wolverine have both easily detected Kurt before he teleported. Slade has enhanced senses which I've already proven with scans. I have others where he says his sense of sight is enhanced to the point where he can easily see bullets in mid-flight if you want those.

Your scan of Spiderman, DD and NightCrawler is Daredevil sensing nothing more than an atmospheric change due to his abilities. There is nothing that suggests he had time to react or if DD knew where NC would materialize. This is supported by the fact that he is still in the exact same position on the next panel, whether he knew if NC was after him or not

Wolverine can time Night Crawler because he trains with him on a regular basis. Omega Red doesn't know enough about how a bloodlusted Kurt would fare in battle to prepare Deathstroke for whats ahead.

Here's just one solution that I (not a tactical genius) came up with in less than 45 minutes: Hide behind cover so when he teleports to you, you're facing him and he catches a blasting staff in his face.

Why would NC port in front of someone with a weapon? His intelligence isn't effected by the blood lust....

Another point: You didn't buy the teamwork upgrade. Nightcrawler hates Mystique and probably wouldn't work with her. Being a freedom fighter, I doubt he'd throw in with a mercenary like Slade Wilson either. Nightcrawler might be a lot of things, but he's proud of being an X-Man and just because you've modified him so he's willing to kill, doesn't mean you've changed his personality or dissolved personal disputes between him and his mother.

Night Crawler is bloodlusted. He's bound to do things he normally wouldn't do.

In other news, let's just entertain your strategy which I've just debunked twice. Let's just undebunk it for a second and I'll tell you why it's a bad idea. Even if you did teleport my Slade to your building, he'd just kill Mystique and Nightcrawler and 1on1 your Slade. Then Omega Red joins the party after 5-10 minutes and it's a done deal.
Seriously, he's wearing bulletproof Nth Metal armor from head to toe. What do you think those two would do to hurt him? He's taken down entire Teen Titans and Outsiders line-ups simultaneously without taking a scratch. Do you think he can't 3v1 when two of them are trash?
Why would you even want to try to gang up on him? Fighting groups is what he does best.

I think you're forgetting that I have a blood lusted version of Deathstroke. Everything you've done for prep, he will know as soon as he sees it. As soon as you are ported to my team, he will see what you have for equipment and dismember your Deathstroke in an instant.

@Dane

That's your own, intentionally erroneous, interpretation of what I said. I'd prefer if you direct your comments to the words I have actually wrote as opposed to the ones you wish I had written. Teledropping is well known as Nightcrawler's method of dealing with tanky opponents like Colossus. It's his only way of doing appreciable damage to armored targets. He can't use it here. You're out of options.

I've also already proven why teleporting Deathstroke is A) Not possible for you. B) The worst idea you've ever had because you would lose your team for no gain.

Instead of focusing on your own skewed interpretation of that sentence, why don't you address the entire post that dismantles your tactical discourse?

What? lol. Direct my comments to the words you have said? I bolded the words I was directing my comments to...

For the third time, teledropping isn't my tactic. I don't know why you seem to think I have said this. All NC has to do is touch Deathstroke once. Ass son as he touches him he brings him back to my team. Once DeathStroke is trapped in the materialization process there's nothing he can do. He has no way to prep for that.

Superman and The Flash move so fast, even to people with enhanced senses they would appear to be teleporting. You're acting as if Nightcrawler moves faster than they do or in some less predictable way. He doesn't.

How does he not move in a more less predictable way? He's a teleporter. He materializes any where he wishes. Deathstroke has no way of telling where Night Crawler will appear.

Yes, yes I can. His blasting staff moves at lightspeed too. I've already told you, if they hide behind cover, which is a very simple tactic, then you have no where else to teleport. He can only teleport in front of them because he can't teleport into walls. Then Deathstroke only has to press a button. It's actually very comparable.

Your using "hiding" as a tactic? They can't hide forever. lol. You've quoted the blood lust perk twice now. You should know it doesn't affect Night Crawlers intelligence. You seem to think he'd be fighting like a mindless hulk.

Also, just once more, stop using 'bloodlusted' as an adjective. Nightcrawler doesn't gain additional powers or skills. His ability to teleport is not altered by his willingness to kill. Being able to tag Nightcrawler and 'bloodlusted Nightcrawler' is the same thing. It's redundant in the sentence.

No, no it's not. =) Night Crawler in a bloodlusted state means he's willing to kill. This change alone changes the character drastically. With this added to his personality he would most definitely be doing things he wouldn't normally do.

I never said Daredevil had the speed to react. Although he finishes two sentences before Nightcrawler appears, so that would indicate some time differential. I said Deathstroke has time to react. Which he does.

Deathstroke has no way to tell when or where Night Crawler is coming. He does not possess the same abilities as DD. There is nothing there to support your argument.

Omega Red has fought Nightcrawler over a dozen times. He has beaten him every time by either predicting his teleports or just grabbing him with superior speed. I have no idea why you're bothering to argue that point.

Omega Red has fought a Kurt would would much less hurt a fly. And your acting as if Kurt has never tagged Omega Red. lol. Put Kurt in the ring with Omega Red and turn the no kill rule off and see what happens.

Because he can't teleport through walls or floor. If you cover your back and sides then there is nowhere else to go.

Kurt's not an idiot...he wouldn't teleport directly in front of someone who is pointing a weapon in that direction. lol

Too Raw said : Night Crawler is bloodlusted. He's bound to do things he normally wouldn't do.

Total garbage. I don't appreciate you trying to break or ignore rules to bolster your team. I understand you've been hit with a mismatch, but you picked that team. Stick with it.

@Esquire

We'll have Esquire settle that,

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I think you're ignoring the definition of bloodlust I've posted twice now (and is posted in the OP). If you want to keep being a clown about it then I suggest you get Esquire to come and confirm your definition of it. The one I'm reading doesn't say anything about turning Deathstroke into The Hulk.

You are twisting my words here dude. lol. All I said is Deathstroke will recognize everything your Deathstroke has and be able to counter it accordingly. They are the same person with the same exact knowledge and intellect. When it's a 3 v 1 in my favor and I have the same character as you do, but blood lusted, there's no way he's surviving.

Here's how I read your statement:
"I want to ignore your 45 minutes prep addon because it suits me, also my version of Deathstroke who is willing to kill will instanteously mutilate your version of Deathstroke (who was already willing to kill) despite them being the exact same person."
Just please clarify that that is what you are saying. If you want to keep coughing up that sort of garbage we can take it to an early vote. I can't argue logic with something who is unable to recognize or present logical arguments.

You have some serious comprehension issues if that's how you read my statement.

@Esquire said:

@ToO_RaW: @Dane:

This is partially going to be my interpretation of the character, so feel free to interject. As far as bloodlusting goes, I have to refer you to the description in the sign-ups:

3 - All your characters are Bloodlusted; their intelligence and emotional state is unaffected, but they will kill without hesitation or remorse.

All it does is make killing a non-event for your characters. So Batman, for example, would use Leopard Blow to one-shot people rather than trying to non-lethally KO them. The difference in using Nightcrawler in a bloodlusted state is that he's not allowed to use the power variations that his bloodlusted state opens up. Bloodlusted Nightcrawler is essentially the AoA version. And the big difference there is that AoA uses tele-dismemberment, whereas 616 doesn't. But that's not legal here. Nightcrawler really can't do things very differently than he normally would, because of how the rules are set up. Maybe he would be a slightly more dangerous swordsman without morals, but he can't do anything particularly differently with his teleportation powers because of the rules.

So long story short, will Nightcrawler do different things when bloodlusted? As far as I can think of, he doesn't really have different things to do. At least that's how I'm seeing things. Does that seem like a reasonable interpretation?

Yes it does. Thank you.

AoA NC was definitely more aggressive though.

Still, it doesn't effect the argument that NC would still be able to at least make contact with DeathStroke. A simple touch is all he needs to teleport him back to my team.

@Dane said:

In summary, my opponent's only tactic is to put himself in a situation where he loses 2 team members for no gain. He has never addressed how he will attack, let alone defeat, Omega Red. This is because he can't. You've heard for yourselves from the tournament creator how the bloodlust addon works. Nothing about the addon gives any measure of skill or additional ability that will add anything to his case. There is nothing he can do against my team. He has never shown them taking down enemies of an approach caliber or showing skills or abilities that appropriately circumvent my own. On the other hand, I've posted numerous showings for my team. Often direct evidence of their superiority and dominance of his team members. I feel that these scans and my own statements say everything I need to say. Good luck to you, ToO_RaW if you progress further in the tournament. I've enjoyed our debate so far but I don't think I can glean anything more from it.

My tactic is to divide and conquer. NC has done it before. All NC has to do is touch Death Stroke to do this. NC is more than capable of touching DeathStroke. So when your DeathStroke turns up in front of my blood lusted DeathStroke, NIght Crawler and Mystique he's done for,

And to Kill Omega Red, NC can teleport his sword in to Omega Reads head.

Main points

• There's nothing Death Stroke can do in 45 minutes of prep that would tell him where or when NC is going to appear.
• NC is more than capable of touching DS which is all he needs to do to teleport him back to my other two team members
• Once NC brings DS back to my team he's outnumbered 3:1. One of those people is himself, bloodlusted.
• NC is bloodlusted. He can port his sword into Omega Red's head.

I'm willing to continue the debate, but if you'd like to stop that's fine.

Good luck to you as well.

@Dane said:

@ToO_RaW: I've already shown scans of Deathstroke hitting things faster than Nightcrawler and Omega Red taking down Nightcrawler. It doesn't change anything. Like I said, no interest in talking in circles.

Faster has nothing to do with materializing out of thin air.

You showed Omega Red stopping Night Crawler from saving a little girl. There is no little girl in this fight my friend.

@Dane said:

@ToO_RaW:
Since it takes him time to materialize, yes it really does matter.

Sebastian Shaw, a guy with no senses or enhanced reaction speed at all caught Nightcrawler mid-teleport. And yet you think he's faster than Superman and The Flash.

He doesn't teleport that fast. Deathstroke is more than fast enough to stab him in the face with a sword before he can teleport again. And even if he did teleport with him, why do you think that's a good idea? So Nightcrawler is grabbing onto Deathstroke. And Deathstroke is doing what? telling him about his day? He would decapitate him before they finished teleporting. Mystique would be soon after than and then it's an even Deathstroke vs Deathstroke. I already covered this. Wolverine and Cyclops can hit Nightcrawler because he moves in predictable patterns. Read the text in my scans. He's predictable. Deathstroke is tactically superior to Cyclops and Wolverine and has a faster reaction time. Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad.

Shaw had absorbed much energy previous to that scan. You are using this out of context as Shaw can transfer the energy he absorbs into speed much greater than anything DeathStroke has ever shown.

Night Crawler can casually dodge lightning by the way.

Night Crawler can teleport roughly 3-4 times per second. If you can provide something that actually says he has that fast of reaction time without using ABC logic like, "since he can tag so-and-so, he can tag Kurt" I may concede.

Until then, NC either teleports his sword into DeathStrokes face or he teleports him back to my team for the 3:1 stomp.

@Dane said:

@ToO_RaW: Address the other scans I added while I create an avalanche with my Deathstroke reaction time scans.

DeathStroke is not Wolverine. Wolverine KNOWS Kurt. He trains with him and knows how Kurt fights. DeathStroke does not have this luxury.

Your scan of Iron Fist is Night Crawler teleporting about 5 feet away from Iron Fist because they were simply trying to find our why Iron Fist was there (context). Kurt wasn't trying to fight him. If Kurt had of teleported his fist into Iron Fist's face it would have been a different story.

Wolverine's senses helped him while with Iron Fist Kurt wasn't trying to hurt or kill IF. He also clearly stood there for a moment after he materialized giving IF time to smell the brimstone.

You continue to use scans out of context.

On that note I'm going to bed. I'll address your next post tomorrow.

@Dane said:

@ToO_RaW: The Wolverine scan is actually before they had been teammates very long.

Nightcrawler is in mid-teleport when he gets punched by Iron Fist.

That doesn't take away the fact that they are still team mates and Wolverine's senses helped him.

No he's not. You can clearly see his hands and it's not even until the next panel where IF hits him. lol

Plus, you can't even hit NC mid teleport. He goes to Azazel's realm when he's in mid-teleport...

@Dane

There's nothing DS can do if Night Crawler materializes his sword into Death Strokes head. Death stroke can't hit NC if he's not there. By the time NC is fully materialized and able to be hit, his sword is already in DS's head.

@Dane said:

@ToO_RaW said:

@Dane

There's nothing DS can do if Night Crawler materializes his sword into Death Strokes head. Death stroke can't hit NC if he's not there. By the time NC is fully materialized and able to be hit, his sword is already in DS's head.

I've shown a dozen examples of why his powers don't work that way. You've ignored all of them. I have no interest in wasting time debating you. Voting is open as far as I'm concerned.

You haven't shown a single example of why his powers don't work that way. I however, have shown Night Crawler teleporting objects into the Thing. A blood lusted Kurt would have no hesitation of doing so to Death Stroke.

Death Stroke can't react at the speed of thought if there's a sword in his brain.

@Dane said:

@ToO_RaW: He has to be able to see what he is teleporting into. That's why he can't telefrag them. That's why we're debating reaction speeds. He has to teleport near them, not on them.

You also have to consider that my team has a .50 cal sniper rifle and some x-ray specs, so... if you want to wait for them to leave cover you're probably going to die. If you teleport near them while they're in cover... you will also die.

Why? That makes no sense whatsoever. He can easily teleport out of Deathstroke's reach, see him, and then teleport his sword into his face. There's nothing DS can do. NC dodges bullets at point blank range for kicks and giggles.

You can't hide in buildings in this match. It's in the rules. Also how would I die if I waited for you to leave? lol....

Quick Summary - your entire strategy is to hide and wait for my people to fight like idiots....

@Dane said:

@ToO_RaW: And during this time Deathstroke just stands around, even though I've shown him as faster than Nightcrawler? How about you address the scans you ask for instead of ignoring them when they ruin everything you're saying? I never said anything about hiding in buildings. I'm on the top building looking down at you. I have a sniper rifle. I can use it without you seeing me. You have to teleport up to me, where you can't see. Quick Summary - you're really bad at reading and even worse at looking at pictures somehow.

My very first post said Night Crawler would teleport into the sky to see where you guys are going. You haven't mentioned being on top of a building once. Night Crawler gets up there before DS or Omega Red has time to say their own names, scopes them out, and teleports objects inside of them. That's one of multiple options I have available.

Who's ignoring what now? lol

Again, DeathStroke can't react at the speed of thought if a sword materializes inside his brain. I'm sorry.

And I have addressed all of your scans that actually mean anything, and even they don't mean a thing because you have used them all out of context. Comics are not just pictures.

@Dane said:

@ToO_RaW:

My very first post said Night Crawler would teleport into the sky to see where you guys are going.

At which point he would eat a bullet that he'd never see coming?

Except Night Crawler can easily dodge automatic fire.....a single bullet is nothing to him. And it's not like Deathstroke will know where to be aiming....

This is why I've had enough of this debate. You have no interest in recognizing my posts or my scans. You don't have any other options available either. I generally like to be rather seemly in debates but I'd rather not pretend you have even the vaguest hope.

All of your scans have been used out of context. Even your friends recognize this. How they think you've won the debate while posting comments like the following is beyond me...I wish I had groupies...lol

While I dislike the great misrepresented speedster tagging feats for Deathstroke, Dane still gets my vote.

You have shown Night Crawler trying to save a little girl and used it as of means of saying Omega Red knows Night Crawler. You have used feats where DeathStroke has had Weeks if not months of prep and are trying to say he's that good with 45 minutes prep.

On top of your out of context representations, you haven't actually come up with a way to beat my team. You simply just said "no" (without justification) to everything I've said my team can do. You've been backed in a corner this entire debate.

Another big point to be considered is that you've said NC can't do most of these things because DS will be hiding in a corner with cover above his head and staff pointed outwards. Well, which is it? The cover above his head or is he on the roof?...lol You can't have cover above your head while on a roof. Plus, starting on roofs gives our teams line of sight right of the bat. As soon as NC sees your team he ports his sword across the map and into your teams organs. Game over.

In conclusion, you have greatly misrepresented Deathstroke's speed feats and lowlballed Night Crawler repeatedly. I have provided in context scans for everything I've said my team can do while you've provided misrepresented and out of context scans to defend your team.

Sorry dude, but DeathStroke isn't god...he nor Omega Red can survive a sword in the face via blood lusted Night Crawler.