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#1 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

Setting:

Rules:

  • In character unless otherwise specified
  • Win by Death, KO, BFR, or Incapacitation
  • Team Chemistry does come into play
  • No Prep unless otherwise specified
  • All DC Characters are Pre-52
  • All Marvel Characters are Current unless specified otherwise
  • RitchieB starts at the Red A, Fetts starts at the Green B
  • Teams begin 1.5 miles apart
  • You may not enter buildings

Team RitchieB:

Deathstroke- 12 (Blast Staff, Promethium Sword, Nth Metal Armor, Uzi)

Edward Elrich - 8 (Metal Arm and Leg)

Nightwing -6 (Nightwing Suit, Electo-Tip Eskrima Sticks, Utility Gauntlets)

Add-Ons

3 - All your characters are Bloodlusted; their intelligence and emotional state is unaffected, but they will kill without hesitation or remorse.

1 - Eliminates all rivalries, disagreements, and bad blood within your team. Everyone will cooperate with and respect one another, even if they normally wouldn’t.

Team Fetts:

Boba Fett-11

Deathstroke-12

Add-Ons

EMP Grenades-2

Begin the match with full knowledge of your foes abilities, traits, powers and potential weaknesses-3

Your team has 45 minutes to plan / strategize and is told the names and only basic powers of who they are facing. During this time they cannot access additional information on their foes or bring additional equipment.-2

#2 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

I think its funny how many Deathstrokes are running around in this tourney. lol.

#3 Posted by boschePG (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: I know. If I get past my opponent I will have to remember what the others say to beat Deathstroke, lol

#4 Edited by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

How this battle proceeds. Edward Elric immediately in closes my team inside a thick earthen sphere. much like what happened to Pride and in FMA Brotherhood. Edward Elric then duplicates Greed's Ultimate Shield as he has done many times throughout the series and crafts three full body suits out of this. these suits are unbreakable, Greed sustains gunshots, explosions, etc without a scratch. you cant argue he does get hurt cause he is a homonculis because when the homonculis get hit they show damage and heal from it however greed never does until Ed finds a way around the shield. Ed also crafts a variety of weapons as he is seen to due multiple times in the anime. My Deathstroke is now fitted with an impenetrable suit as yours is not, because this suit cannot be broken without alchemy which none of your team members know my Deathstroke eventually kills your Deathstroke as he is in a suit and Ed can craft anything instantly including better weapons then yours. That leaves Bobba Fett. He has guns, grenades, etc but nothing Greed's ultimate defense cant stop not to mention Ed has killed multiple homonculis which are nearly immortal and super human, Bobba while a bad ass is not. So its reasonable to assume if Ed can kill a super human immortal and Bobba Fett cant break the shield, Ed kills Bobba. Not to mention I have a bloodlusted Nightwing with morals off to help Deathstroke and Ed, since NW has none of his morals and will kill without hesitation its reasonable to assume that he will use lethal weapons. your Deathstroke and Bobba are dead. a morals off Ed with the help of Deathstroke and NW creates a city wide transmutaion circle killing everyone in the city but my team and harnesses the souls of thousands to create a philosophers stone which will be used in later rounds.

#5 Posted by Fetts (4448 posts) - - Show Bio

Before I begin, I would like for @RitchieB: to back up his claims of Edward Elric's power with Youtube videos. I don't know a lot about Edward Elric, but I know Esquire. If Edward Elric was truly capable of wiping out a city, Esquire wouldn't have put him in this tourney.

Online
#6 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fetts : I watched all of Brotherhood and never seen Ultimate shield duplicated by Ed at all on others. He has disabled the shield on Greed but never, ever duplicated this. Also a city wide Transmutation circle is major BS. Father needed years of prep to make such a circle.

Dont worry about all that.

#7 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

Edward Elric has never done this because he is the good guy and thus would not kill thousands of people so I can offer no direct proof of this. However I invite anyone familiar with Edward Elric to affirm a few things and I will post the link to the full metal alchemist wiki showing he can do these things.

1. Edward Elric can create philosophers stones that is evident in the series he only chooses not to because it cost human souls.

2. a nationwide transmuation circle exists in the FMA Brotherhood anime. this arena is only 1.5 miles big, Ed can manage something like that easily as he is one of the most powerful/brilliant alchemist in the series. I support that claim via this quote from the FMA wiki "With the Reversal Nationwide Transmutation Circle completed, Ed, Al, Izumi, and everyone else have finally regained their alchemy, with Ed proclaiming that their counterattack has now begun" Considering that Ed can make a nationwide reverse circle he could also make a nationwide transmutation circle. it would take time but it could be done certainly sense a 1.5 mile city is much smaller than a nation. (http://fma.wikia.com/wiki/Edward_Elric) is the source of the quote look under the section The Final Fight and New Beginings

3. even if you contest the city wide transmutation circle which is I believe is very possible. Ed Elric still has the ability to transmute human souls. Like I said Ed has the ability to transmuate Human Souls, even if it was not city wide he could create a Philosophers Stone which is what i am after.

#8 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB said:

Edward Elric has never done this because he is the good guy and thus would not kill thousands of people so I can offer no direct proof of this. However I invite anyone familiar with Edward Elric to affirm a few things and I will post the link to the full metal alchemist wiki showing he can do these things.

1. Edward Elric can create philosophers stones that is evident in the series he only chooses not to because it cost human souls.

2. a nationwide transmuation circle exists in the FMA Brotherhood anime. this arena is only 1.5 miles big, Ed can manage something like that easily as he is one of the most powerful/brilliant alchemist in the series. I support that claim via this quote from the FMA wiki "With the Reversal Nationwide Transmutation Circle completed, Ed, Al, Izumi, and everyone else have finally regained their alchemy, with Ed proclaiming that their counterattack has now begun" Considering that Ed can make a nationwide reverse circle he could also make a nationwide transmutation circle. it would take time but it could be done certainly sense a 1.5 mile city is much smaller than a nation. (http://fma.wikia.com/wiki/Edward_Elric) is the source of the quote look under the section The Final Fight and New Beginings

3. even if you contest the city wide transmutation circle which is I believe is very possible. Ed Elric still has the ability to transmute human souls. Like I said Ed has the ability to transmuate Human Souls, even if it was not city wide he could create a Philosophers Stone which is what i am after.

I would contest some of this as a Brotherhood Fan. Edward is a great Alchemist however Father was the better and he needed years prep both times he did a city wide Circle with many events falling into place. The Counter attacks was easier to perform and not threatening at all.

Transmutate Human souls is also debatable. If it were that easy Father would have ended everyone with a single attack. There is again prep, circles, ingredients needed to perform such a feat.

Also base on wikis is hard to make valid points. 1) They are not official. 2) Feats are hard to prove when Ed has not proven he can do it.

Also Ed power comes from forming a circle with his hands. If his hands get damage or out right destroyed in any way he becomes unable to perform his quick Alchemy.

The fact is Edward is powerful but has NO proof of some of the claims you made.

#9 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@@CadenceV2:

please explain this quote then if you will http://fma.wikia.com/wiki/Edward_Elric look under abilities " Of course, the true genius of Edward Elric's combat alchemy lies in his aptitude for incorporating the alchemy styles of others into his own after merely having once seen them in action, which makes him very adaptable to various situations. So far, he has adapted Scar's destruction alchemy, Alex Louis Armstrong's gauntlets and stone spikes as well as Greed's carbon armor hardening into his combat repertoire."

even if I call off the city wide one it is certain that Ed can a stone, which can be made from as few as a dozen people, certainly there are 12 ppl in this city

#10 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB: Yes that part of info is true. However again there is no proof of Edward being able to use Greed's Shield on others. He never dispaly that level of power. Fact is Edward is limited in power which is why he needs a Philosopher Stone to be more. Now if your plan is acquiring 12 people and performing the act then I guess that could work. however you must nab these people from the street to do so and I am sure it will be more than enough ruckus for team to hear about.

Now that is settled I will bow out of this match.

#11 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

I agree that Ed making a city wide transmution circle is stretching his powers however i still believe it can be done. However for the sake of argument I will omit it. However I still hold firm that Ed can make a Stone even if its a 12 person stone which Ed can make after one team member is dead and the other is slowly bleeding out.

Now lets discuss the Ultimate Shield. its made of Carbon harder and stronger then any material. Ed can certainly make Armor Suits look at Al for instance. Ed can make a suit then harden the Carbon " the most abundant element on the planet" to create a suit with the same strength of Ultimate Defense. I believe Ed did this to his own arm when Scar was trying to destroy it.secondly Now if you can destroy something you can make it ( as he destroyed Greeds), its part of Alchemy thats why Scar could not destroy Eds arm because he didnt know what it was made out of. if Ed know the what its made of he can make it, which its evidenced by him doing it to his own arm. Ed can make suits, he can change the material its made of, therefore he can change it into the same material as the Ultimate Shield. thus ultimate shield full body suits and this is not taxing on Ed because he changes his arm back and forth many times in the battle with Scar plus I put further evidence to my case in the fact that Greed was able to do it as well once Ed did it to him. Like he did to Father in the last episode. stating the if you can destroy it you can make it and vice versa yet again

#12 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB: My point is character limits. Why didnt Ed make a Army of Carbon Armour Al suits for everyone to use against Pride? Se like a easy win if he had. Or against Wrath, Gluttony, or even Envy!

He simply doesn't have the power limits it seems. He can make his own Arm and Leg into Carbon as shown but nothing in his power limits for a whole suit for others. That is why Feat to back up claims is important. Ed has a Limit on Tranmutation and we can only base this on his feats.

#13 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@@CadenceV2:

the exact same reason as Goku doesn't have the Z fighters guard him as he makes the Spirit Bomb and kill Buu the first time he meets him. He can do it, but the series would suck it he did. however this is not a series. why does not Batman knock out all his enemies almost instantly like he did in Batman 16. he did it to freeze, clayface, etc. why doesnt he do it all the time? Batman 16 shows he can make quick work of them but he doesnt due to storyline and plot. Ed can turn things into greeds shield and he changes his arm back and forth many times with no sign of fatigue from doing it, Ed fixes Al suits many times and from top to bottom when he was almost completely destroyed and didn't even sweat.

#14 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB said:

@@CadenceV2:

the exact same reason as Goku doesn't have the Z fighters guard him as he makes the Spirit Bomb and kill Buu the first time he meets him. He can do it, but the series would suck it he did. however this is not a series. why does not Batman knock out all his enemies almost instantly like he did in Batman 16. he did it to freeze, clayface, etc. why doesnt he do it all the time? Batman 16 shows he can make quick work of them but he doesnt due to storyline and plot. Ed can turn things into greeds shield and he changes his arm back and forth many times with no sign of fatigue from doing it, Ed fixes Al suits many times and from top to bottom when he was almost completely destroyed and didn't even sweat.

I could argue base on Feats Batman cannot KO everyone with one shot all the time and it was a lucky blow as the Feats show. Fact is you have to prove it and its hard to prove when discussing Eds limits.

Anyway it is up to how he wants to handle it.

#15 Edited by Dextersinister (5922 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB: You mention that Batman has shown those specific feat's* you mention on rare occasion's but Cadence's original point was that Edward has never shown those specific feat's* just similar but less useful version's.

*insta knocking certain character's out

*making unbreakable armour for other's

#16 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7403 posts) - - Show Bio

I usually wouldn't interfere with others debate so I'll put it in spoiler blocks & leave it up to curiosity.

Ed breaks Greed's Ultimate Shield by softening the carbon which it is composed of. Due to the restrictions(blow) Ed can't transmute elements without knowing the molecular makeup & having the necessary materials. So no copy paste action unless Ed has a philosopher stone which throws the rules(blow) out the window.

Alchemy (錬金術 Renkinjutsu) is, as it is understood in the Fullmetal Alchemistseries, the ancient metaphysical science/mystical art of manipulating and altering matter by using natural energy. This act is known as "Transmutation" and its sequence is usually described as:

  1. Comprehension - Understanding the inherent structure and properties of the atomic or molecular makeup of a particular material to be transmuted, including the flow and balance of potential and kinetic energy within.
  2. Deconstruction - Using energy to break down the physical structure of the identified material into a more malleable state so as to be easily reshaped into a new form.
  3. Reconstruction - Continuing the flow of energy so as to reform the material into a new shape.

In standard practice, Equivalent Exchange is separated into two parts:

  • The Law of Conservation of Mass, which states that energy and matter can neither be created from nothing nor destroyed to the point of elemental nonexistence. In other words, to create an object weighing one kilogram, at least one kilogram of material is necessary and destroying an object weighing one kilogram would reduce it to a set of parts, the sum of which would weigh one kilogram.
  • The Law of Natural Providence, which states that an object or material made of a particular substance or element can only be transmuted into another object with the same basic makeup and properties of that initial material. In other words, an object or material made mostly of water can only be transmuted into another object with the attributes of water.
#17 Edited by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dextersinister:

this is not a case of "did" its a case of "can". Did Deathstroke ever fight in a tournament and kill himself, No. "can" Deathstoke kill a different version of himself in a tournament, yes. Did Ed Elric duplicate Greed's Ultimate Shield, yes. Did he do it more than once and in rapid succession, yes. Did Ed Elric change a metal arm into Ultimate Shield, yes. Did he change a leg, yes. Did he do it multiple times yes. Did Ed Elric craft suits of armor, yes. Edward Elric did all of these things.

now we move to can, can Ed create a suit of armor for his team yes. because he did create suits of armor easily in the series.

can Ed then change these suits into the same substance as the Ultimate Shield yes. because he did change an arm and a leg multiple times in one fight. there is no specific number on how many times cause the anime does not pause and state Ed changed his arm X amount of times, however the fight is very fast paced and it comes across that Ed is rapidly changing his arm and leg back and fourth. if you watch the fight not only does Ed change these back in fourth many many times, he also launches some very impressive attacks while doing it. now if Ed can change the substance of something multiple times and while at the same time launching stone spikes, pillars, hands etc. he can certainly change a few suits of armor, especially when that is all he is doing while hes protected by the earthen sphere he casted and before the enemy Deathstroke and Bobba find him since his Alchemy is nearly instantaneous.

Cadence is trying to make it sound like Ed changed his arm and leg then fell over gasping from exhaustion because it was so hard and he was so limited but it is simply not the case. Ed has a very prolonged fight with one of the more powerful enemies in the series and does changes it rapidly. I refuse to believe Ed cant make three suits of armor but can some how battle Scar, launch a series of huge attacks, and change his arm and leg multiple times. I mean he can do all that but somehow 3 suits are beyond his power? cmon man.

#18 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7403 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB: Are you using FMA Brotherhood or FMA Ed?

#19 Posted by boschePG (2263 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity: @RitchieB: @CadenceV2: @Fetts: @Esquire:

Im not the maker of this tourney, but I was under the impression that the characters could only fight with what was in the parenthesis or related to their known ability. As in I know Ultimate Hawkeye has a nuke arrow but cant use it. Could I get a clarification on this .

#20 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschePG: Only what was specified for gear or version is being used. The Nuke arrow would be special gear and not even standard gear.

#21 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity: I didn't know I had to pick a specific story arc. I thought all of Eds abilities would come into play, as i am sure people will use comic book characters abilities from multiple story arcs. I honestly do not now what more I can do as you said the shield is made of Carbon. the most abundant mineral on the planet. so I have a heard time believing Ed cant find carbon. I have already cited an outside source for verification that Ed can use Greed's shield in his own combat. If Ed can deconstruct the Shield, he has to know the composition of it, thats why Scar couldn't destroy Eds arm. If Ed knows the composition of something he can make something. Ed knows the composition of Greed shield proved by being able to destroy it. Ed uses this on his own arm.

Ed has the material sense it is the most abundant on the planet

Ed know how it is made

Ed can therefore make it as he does in the series.

just because he didn't use it in that way does not mean he cant. Ed never used his alchemy to knock someone with a jetpack out the sky doesn't mean he cant. these are abilities Ed proves he has, the only difference is i applied them in a much deadlier way

#22 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschePG: The arrow was specially made by Hank Pym in order to take out Colossus, so i think that is defined as special gear.

#23 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

the difference is Hawkeye can not make a nuke arrow using his powers, since he has none. Ed has alchemy, which can make almost anything. Spiderman's spidey sense or Logans healing ability isnt listed but its an essential part of the character just as The Full Metal Alchemist has alchemy as an essential part of his character. Esquire had to know anyone who picked Ed was going to use alchemy because its part of his character. Hawkeye doesnt always have a nuke arrow but Ed always has alchemy

#24 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7403 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB: They are two different series the first being canon unto it self the second is canon to the manga. While I have only seen the second one (FMAB) there has been post on alchmey working different in both series. Also I agree Ed should be able to copy Greed's armor with the right materials it's true he never did it. If you are referencing Ed's fight with Scar in FMAB that would be incorrect. Otherwise I can't fact check something I have not seen. But your characters are blood-lust so him doing so would be justifiable to a degree.

#25 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7403 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: @boschePG: @RitchieB: Esquire's take on transmutation. So there is a chance of him not allowing over powered equipment but allowing gear to be made.

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

Will bringing a gun(with prep) qualify the character for unlimited ammo?

@Esquire said:

Are you referring to the strategic prep perk? Because that states specifically that you cannot bring additional equipment. There's no prep at all without it, either, so I'm not sure how you would acquire this gun.

2 - Your team has 45 minutes to plan / strategize and is told the names and only basic powers of who they are facing. During this time they cannot access additional information on their foes or bring additional equipment.

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

They would use AL's transmutation powers for that and a few other things. One of the reason I picked him.

@Esquire said:

Eh, seems fine. It can have unlimited ammo, although only standard ammo is unlimited. I'd like you to PM me a list of what all you're thinking of making, though.

#26 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@CadenceV2: @boschePG: @RitchieB: Esquire's take on transmutation. So there is a chance of him not allowing over powered equipment but allowing gear to be made.

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

Will bringing a gun(with prep) qualify the character for unlimited ammo?

@Esquire said:

Are you referring to the strategic prep perk? Because that states specifically that you cannot bring additional equipment. There's no prep at all without it, either, so I'm not sure how you would acquire this gun.

2 - Your team has 45 minutes to plan / strategize and is told the names and only basic powers of who they are facing. During this time they cannot access additional information on their foes or bring additional equipment.

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

They would use AL's transmutation powers for that and a few other things. One of the reason I picked him.

@Esquire said:

Eh, seems fine. It can have unlimited ammo, although only standard ammo is unlimited. I'd like you to PM me a list of what all you're thinking of making, though.

I think making near Adamntium armor for the entire team is a bit out of Eds power. He clearly has not shown his abilities to that level. Thats my point. Make it for himself? Fine. For everyone? Its way to OP and never been shown feat wise ever.

#27 Edited by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@@Mr_Ingenuity:

here is the question. I am almost certain Ed used it on his arm at one point in the series, however regardless of that, shown in the video you posted even after Ed gets the snot kicked out of him by Greed, he softens the carbon mutiple times in the chest, arms, etc while fighting Greed. you have already stated that Ed can duplicate Greed's Defense. if a beat down Ed can soften Greeds defense multiple times and continue to fight him, is it impossible for a fully healed Ed on Bloodlust to harden the carbon in three suits to the point of Greed's Defense?

#28 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7403 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: This explains my position on that but in truth all he needs is carbon and load of it refer to my first post on page 1.

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@RitchieB: They are two different series the first being canon unto it self the second is canon to the manga. While I have only seen the second one (FMAB) there has been post on alchmey working different in both series. Also I agree Ed should be able to copy Greed's armor with the right materials it's true he never did it. If you are referencing Ed's fight with Scar in FMAB that would be incorrect. Otherwise I can't fact check something I have not seen. But your characters are blood-lust so him doing so would be justifiable to a degree.

#29 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7403 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB: I'm not the OP so I can't say it is allowed or should not be allowed but under the conditions it can be justified.

But your characters are blood-lust so him doing so would be justifiable to a degree.
#30 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

I suppose it is up to you to pass judgement. Under the confines of Edward Elric abilities it has been said that the creation of these suits can be justified and I have also posted my justification of Eds ability to create a philosophers stone.

Under the rules outlined at the start of this tournament and your position on alchemy revealed by Mr. Ingenuity will you allow these Ultimate Defense Suits to be created? Will you allow Stones to be created? and if Stones are allowed to what degree do you find acceptable?

#31 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB said:

I suppose it is up to you to pass judgement. Under the confines of Edward Elric abilities it has been said that the creation of these suits can be justified and I have also posted my justification of Eds ability to create a philosophers stone.

Under the rules outlined at the start of this tournament and your position on alchemy revealed by Mr. Ingenuity will you allow these Ultimate Defense Suits to be created? Will you allow Stones to be created? and if Stones are allowed to what degree do you find acceptable?

I think I have a say in this as well. I was the one that said Ed and All could be added in this Tourney along with Wrath. I help suggest Street Levelers and said we needed some Manga ones.

I did not intend for anyone to abuse the rules with said characters by using to accomplish something they have never shown or done before. If you want to argue that Ed can create a Philosopher Stone then go ahead. on the same note Night Crawler Bloodlusted should Kill Ed everyday with no chance to win thru Teledismemberment.

We have placed rules to keep things fair. Not use ABC logic for feats to make a unbeatable team.

#32 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

Like I said i will wait for Esquires judgement and hope he does not change the rules just because I am more clever in the use my characters. However I reaffirm my argument of Can vs Did, it is impossible to run this tournament based on Did because you will never be able to cite Did as this is a tournament of characters that never met. using you Nightcrawler example, you will see in another tournament match the argument of Can Deathstroke hit Nightcrawler. which to this point I believe the poster made a solid argument on DS being able to hit people with incredible speed. Now if you use Did, did Deathstroke hit Nightcrawler, not in any evidence i have seen thus far and by your logic since there is no Did, Nightcrawler can only be defeated by characters that Did hit him, however if you use Can, much more exists when we can logically argue the abilities of our characters, to which I have proven Ed has the ability to do

#33 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB: Your twisting Did and Can. Deathstroke has proven feats of likewise scenarios to react to NC.

Ed has no likewise feat of making 3 Invincible suits of Carbon. Nowhere close. Merely his own Automail.

#34 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschePG said:

Im not the maker of this tourney, but I was under the impression that the characters could only fight with what was in the parenthesis or related to their known ability. As in I know Ultimate Hawkeye has a nuke arrow but cant use it. Could I get a clarification on this .

Only weapons specified, and anything they can scavenge from the city itself.

@RitchieB said:

I suppose it is up to you to pass judgement. Under the confines of Edward Elric abilities it has been said that the creation of these suits can be justified and I have also posted my justification of Eds ability to create a philosophers stone.

Under the rules outlined at the start of this tournament and your position on alchemy revealed by Mr. Ingenuity will you allow these Ultimate Defense Suits to be created? Will you allow Stones to be created? and if Stones are allowed to what degree do you find acceptable?

I apologize to everyone involved, I totally forgot to explain how I wanted alchemy handled in the rules. I PM'd Mr_Ingenuity about it earlier, but I completely overlooked the fact that RitchieB had chosen Elric as well. Basically, I asked that Mr_I restrict his transmutation abilities to things that were no more powerful than other things available in the tournament. E.G, he could create a gun, but not a nuke launcher. That, combined with the limited time Elric has to do things, seemed like enough restriction to keep him fair, but still allow him to be versatile and powerful.

The other thing, and this is totally my fault, is that I forgot to put in the OP that the city is unpopulated. I had planned to do so because it avoids questions of civilians panicking, hostage situation, etc, and keeps things to a manageable level of variables. If the area is devoid of humans, then that would also prevent the creation of a Philosopher's Stone, which limits Elric's alchemy to less powerful levels.

I apologize again that I didn't make these restrictions clear. If they seem unreasonable, I'm more than happy to discuss them, and I hope we can find a fair solution.

#35 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7403 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: I understand, but the debate is over can Ed recreate Greed's Ultimate Shield theoretically diamond level on a hardness scale. If you checked my spoiler on the first page Ed does understand the mechanics so with a carbon source (everything other than air) he could make Ultimate Shield plates debatably an entire suit in a given time. The logic is, if Ed can softened carbon molecules to be brittle why couldn't he harden it?

@3:35-3:42 Greed states he reversed the Ultimate Shield turning his body in to the most fragile carbon there is.

#36 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity: I really don't see any problems with that, provided it can be satisfactorily debated that creating an entire suit is doable within the time available. It's not going to be better than Deathstroke's armor, for example, so I don't think it's too overpowered.

#37 Posted by Fetts (4448 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok. Sssooo since we got some stuff cleared up, can @RitchieB: please remake his strategy now that he has a better understanding of what he is allowed to do and so that I have a better understanding of what your team team strategy is?

Online
#38 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire:

so let me just clear things up before we have a huge debate over what can and and cannot be done again.

Greed's Ultimate Defense Suits are acceptable, correct?

what is the strength of these Greed Suits, because in the anime they are never penetrated without the use of alchemy and even then they aren't penetrated just made softer by changing the make up. the description in the anime is the hardest know material on earth, harder then diamonds. so solely for the sake of this tournament what can they stop, small arms? large arms? explosions? or is that up to to debate? I believe they would be stronger then Deathstroke's armor as DS armor has been penetrated where as Greed's has not

P. Stones are not allowed as their are not enough human souls in this city. correct?

finally on the use of Alchemy what is acceptable you said the making of anything that is available in the tournament, so if Ed crafts a gun does said gun automatically get unlimited ammo like the rest of the guns in the tournament? because I am concerned about arguements like where does Ed find gunpowder etc. I almost think Ed should have a P. Stone with X amount of points to avoid the whole material debate and the P. Stone can only be used to create things. because if you really think about it even a simple hangun is made of so many materials now adays and debating on wither or not you can find every single one would be exhausting. this would obviously be used for more advanced things like firearms because swords, knives, and other melee weapons could be crafted out of the steel and wood found in the city

#39 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB said:

@Esquire:

finally on the use of Alchemy what is acceptable you said the making of anything that is available in the tournament, so if Ed crafts a gun does said gun automatically get unlimited ammo like the rest of the guns in the tournament? because I am concerned about arguements like where does Ed find gunpowder etc. I almost think Ed should have a P. Stone with X amount of points to avoid the whole material debate and the P. Stone can only be used to create things. because if you really think about it even a simple hangun is made of so many materials now adays and debating on wither or not you can find every single one would be exhausting. this would obviously be used for more advanced things like firearms because swords, knives, and other melee weapons could be crafted out of the steel and wood found in the city

A P. stone is Reality Warping device plain and simple. You can create anything you want as you see fit and that alone makes Ed a mini Franklin Richards. That is Silver surfer Level and flat out trying to turn this Tourney into " I cant lose as I simply have Ed turn everyone into ashes with a thought" and that is not the point here.

#40 Edited by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

if you read what I actually wrote, I said the P. Stone can only be used to make something that exists in the tournament. so unless there is a specific thing in this tournament that can turn people to ash with a thought, Ed cant do it. The P. Stone would have X amount of points and those points can be used to craft anything listed under the add-ons section of original tourney post. while simple things like a basic sword or basic axe made of steel could be crafted without the use of points and Ed could still use his stone hands, spikes, etc without cost

#41 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB said:

@CadenceV2:

if you read what I actually wrote, I said the P. Stone can only be used to make something that exists in the tournament. so unless there is a specific thing in this tournament that can turn people to ash with a thought, Ed cant do it. The P. Stone would have X amount of points and those points can be used to craft anything listed under the add-ons section of original tourney post

this is a street level tourney. the P Stone allows FAR BEYOND Street level attacks and abilities. It simply should not be allowed. You pick Ed as He was for His points. Thats a done deal. You have what you pick. You cannot add a P. Stone to it.

That is simply wrong.

#42 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

I had no idea that everything Ed used his alchemy for was going to used for debate. himself said Al can craft a gun, however in the series Al never crafts a gun, i don't even think he crafts a single weapon. if you chose Ed Elric you had the reasonable assumption could use alchemy to make things to benefit your team. Ed and Al making things to better our team is the whole reason and said Ed can craft Greed's Ultimate Defense which by cannon in the manga and anime cannot be stopped by anyone but Ed Elric who has demonstrated the knowledge of its composition. so I automatically win but I wont cause I am not a total jerk and frankly you should be disqualified for interfering in another opponents debate. the rule specifically state you can only correct misinformation, you tired to argue Ed using Greed's ability is disinformation but were proven wrong. everything you have continued to say that isn't a direct challenge to misinformation like wither or not Ed should get a P. Stone is grounds for disqualification. this is a debate between me and Fetts with Esquire as the ultimate judge on things.

#43 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB: Exactly. I was the one who put in Ed in this match. Esquire will be the final judge and he is being inform to now allow you to abuse the rules of this Tourney for a insta win that no one can counter base on NO FEATS of it happening and just your opponion on what can happen.

#44 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: once again that is not your place. your a rival in this tournament. a tournament of debate and you can correct misinformation. I am sure Esquire know of Ed Elrics abilities. Like I said already Esquire has permitted Al Elric to make a gun something that has never happened in the FMA series. however he has been convinced through the assessment of what Al can do that Al can make a gun even though there isnt a single direct FEAT of Al Elric making a gun or understanding how one works. this was decided on the basis of can not specific evidence or a feat Al has proven to do. You have already lost on Ed's Greed duplication. The rules state you can only argue misinformation not DEBATE what powers of Ed Elric should and should not be allowed. you have engaged in a debate with a rival probably on the grounds to weaken Ed Elric in case you meet him in a future round. Ed has used a P. Stone before however Ed has never crafted an advanced weapon like a gun, but since has said Al can even though he never has in any FEAT, i asked the judge for a rule clarification on Alchemy, you may not like my claims but that is a matter of DEBATE not MISINFO. since you are debating me on what the abilities of Ed should be in this tournament you have broken the rules to hopefully limit Eds power, like i said Debate. Debating in a rivals match is not allowed therefore you should be Disqualified

#45 Posted by Fetts (4448 posts) - - Show Bio
@CadenceV2@RitchieB: The two of you arguing isn't going to accomplish anything. I understand the desire to be the one that's right. But quite frankly, you're flooding this thread. If you want to continue this chat, do it via PM please. 
 
@RitchieB: Just ask @Esquire: what Ed can and cannot do. Just set aside your personal belief of what Ed is capable of, and just simply ask him. What he says goes. 
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#46 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

I am officially calling for the DISQUALIFICATION of

the rules of this tournament state that others can only correct misinformation, CadenceV2 has repeatedly continued to Debate me on which aspects of Ed Elrics abilities on what should and should not be allowed in the tourney. He has also put forth the argument against the requested rule change or clarification on the rule of Alchemy. This is not misinformation simply because they were no posted rules to inform on the limits of alchemy. the limits of alchemy are a matter of debate. Not only has CadenceV2 debated me on this put has posted more times in my match then his own but as a third offense by his own admission, CadenceV2 has revealed the ability to determine characters abilities because he put Ed Elric in the tournament and thus has a say in the character abilties, clarification and rules, since nobody else that is competing in this tournament does not have this special privilege it is unfair giving him an advantage. this among others are my reasons he should be immediately disqualified.

#47 Edited by name12345 (560 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB said:

I am officially calling for the DISQUALIFICATION of

the rules of this tournament state that others can only correct misinformation, CadenceV2 has repeatedly continued to Debate me on which aspects of Ed Elrics abilities on what should and should not be allowed in the tourney. He has also put forth the argument against the requested rule change or clarification on the rule of Alchemy. This is not misinformation simply because they were no posted rules to inform on the limits of alchemy. the limits of alchemy are a matter of debate. Not only has CadenceV2 debated me on this put has posted more times in my match then his own but as a third offense by his own admission, CadenceV2 has revealed the ability to determine characters abilities because he put Ed Elric in the tournament and thus has a say in the character abilties, clarification and rules, since nobody else that is competing in this tournament does not have this special privilege it is unfair giving him an advantage. this among others are my reasons he should be immediately disqualified.

i think a simple warning should be enough..

#48 Posted by RitchieB (221 posts) - - Show Bio

@name12345:

that what I am waiting for. I mean seriously your my opponent not him. I mean there is literally three pages worth of him arguing with me what Ed can and cannot do, which is kinda your job. its not fair for him to troll three pages worth especially when he was proven wrong already and when i ask esquire for clarification he butts into that as well. that shouldn't be allowed and is direct rule violation he has committed numerous times, can you imagine what this tourney would be like if everyone trolled their opponents matches? seriously, if you break rules over and over its a dq especially if you can cite your self as a co-maker who has privileges that others do not. I mean he can decide what my characters do "since he helped put him in the tourney", which may be valid if he wasn't competing but he is and since he made it clear to everyone he has that advantage he shouldnt be allowed to compete

#49 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@RitchieB: What I agreed on with Mr_Ingenuity is that you could build anything that wasn't more powerful than what was already in the tournament. I have no problems with that extending to things like guns, even though that would technically require a philosopher's stone. The biggest constraint on alchemy is going to be the time it takes to build things, not the ability to make them. So long as you can debate that Al is capable of making something as complex as a gun, for example, in the time available, then I'm okay with it happening.

As far as Ultimate Suits, I'll allow them with the stipulation that they're only on the same level as Nth Metal or Vibranium, since those are the most durable armors available in the tournament and they can be debated against. With how little exposure the Ultimate Defense Suit had in the show, (at least that I've seen), they weren't tested all that much, so that gives us a baseline for how durable they are without making them an auto-win by invincibility. Does that sound reasonable?

As far as Philosopher's Stones, they technically can't be made since there's no human souls to use. But I'm okay with transmuting different elements to create things within reason. I would say that things that can be purchased as Add-Ons or as characters' gear is a reasonable limit for what you can create, if that sounds fair.

Does this sound like a reasonable compromise to everyone? Again, I apologize that I didn't think this out better in advance.

#50 Posted by Fetts (4448 posts) - - Show Bio
@Esquire: I think it's reasonable enough.
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