#1 Posted by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

Setting:

Rules:

  • In character unless otherwise specified
  • Win by Death, KO, BFR, or Incapacitation
  • Team Chemistry does come into play
  • No Prep unless otherwise specified
  • All DC Characters are Pre-52
  • All Marvel Characters are Current unless specified otherwise
  • Mr_Ingenuity starts at the Red A, BoschePG starts at the Green B
  • Teams begin 1.5 miles apart
  • You may not enter buildings

Team Mr_Ingenuity:

Al Elric - 8 (Armor Body)

Daredevil - 7 (Twin Billy Clubs)

616 Captain America - 7 (Shield)

Add-Ons

2 - Telepathic Link for your entire team.

3 - All your characters are Bloodlusted; their intelligence and emotional state is unaffected, but they will kill without hesitation or remorse.

1 - Your team is immune to pheromones, tear gas, and poison gas.

2 - Your team has 45 minutes to plan / strategize and is told the names and only basic powers of who they are facing. During this time they cannot access additional information on their foes or bring additional equipment.

Team BoschePG:

Hawkeye - 5

Daredevil - 7

Cyclops - 9

Add-Ons

1 - One Archer is equipped with 5 Explosive Arrow, 3 Carbonadium Arrows, 2 Sonic Arrows, 1 Net Arrow, and 1 Glue Arrow.

2 - Telepathic Link for your entire team .

1 - Your team is immune to pheromones, tear gas, and poison gas.

3 - All Bladed Weapons are made of Adamantium. (Hawkeye)

2 - Your team has 45 minutes to plan / strategize and is told the names and only basic powers of who they are facing. During this time they cannot access additional information on their foes or bring additional equipment.

#2 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (6355 posts) - - Show Bio

You may open If would like to. I'll aim to make a solid post between the next 24 hrs.

#3 Edited by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity: @Esquire:

Ill gladly go first. Ill consider this my opening statement with scans to follow.

Since we both have Daredevil, I assume I dont need to post an example of radar sense. Im also going to assume that since we both have 45 minute prep, the connection of Hawkeye and Captain America will be shared with their teams? With that said, let me begin with my battle theory

I took Hawkeye, Cyclops, and Daredevil for a combined reason. Combine telepathic connection with long range attacks...sort of like a heat seeking missile.

Daredevil radar sense with telepathy to team to know where to target. It also helps to locate a hidden garrisons that Al may have created

Cyclops can take out any hidden garrison from the shared telepathy with Daredevil. He can also take out many of them at one time:

Another ricochet shot scan. He doesnt have to see you. He can just bounce the beams off stuff with Daredevil as his radar sight

Notice how I placed him versus a Sentinel too. You know I have tons of these, so he has experience with robot type armor

Cyclops can also be used to help with movement with other people on his team.

Hawkeye is used for support and will be saved for rebuttals. Would go more into detail but the wifey is calling. I think I have opened with a distinct advantage in way to find, which you share, but I also have the advantage of range in the fight to keep your brawlers at a distance and a way to find any traps. My range attack with Cyclops also arent sight oriented as proven with scans

#4 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (6355 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschePG: Yes us having picked Daredevil will make this interesting

Prep

Due to over sight @Esquire: has left me a loophole thankfully. So my team will be equipped with extra.

Alphonse Elric aka Al

Al is my ace because your team has no canon knowledge on him. His alchemy adds to their prep being able to constructed a verity of weapons as long as he has the necessary materials.

Al will construct an assault rifle, katana, 5 frag grenades, & 5 stun grenades. Al's alchemy knowledge combined with Cap & Daredevil's weapon knowledge for balancing, parts & effectiveness making perfect weapons. Grabbing & transmuting the needed materials will take no more than 20 mins. Being in a city full of cars, buildings, and debris, I don't find this impossible. Cap gets the rifle, 2 frag and stun grenades. DD gets the katana.

Al is also in charge of traveling. With his constructs they can travel over the buildings & since every thing is made of steel/concrete his constructs will not fall apart.

Daredevil aka DD

DD will inform his team of the plausible ways to take him down which is where the grenades come in handy.

He's also incharge tracking your team's movement. Since we both have DD there is no stealth so a frontal assault is what is leads to.

Captain America aka Cap

Cap is team leader aiming his teams strengths against your teams weaknesses. Cap vs Cyclops, DD vs Dd, Al vs Hawkeye. These are strengths for the simple reason my team is blood-lust so your team will not go all out.

3 - All your characters are Blood-lust; their intelligence and emotional state is unaffected, but they will kill without hesitation or remorse.

Alchemy/Equivalent Exchange Synopsis (taken from the wiki)

Alchemy (錬金術 Renkinjutsu) is, as it is understood in the Fullmetal Alchemistseries, the ancient metaphysical science/mystical art of manipulating and altering matter by using natural energy. This act is known as "Transmutation" and its sequence is usually described as:

  1. Comprehension - Understanding the inherent structure and properties of the atomic or molecular makeup of a particular material to be transmuted, including the flow and balance of potential and kinetic energy within.
  2. Deconstruction - Using energy to break down the physical structure of the identified material into a more malleable state so as to be easily reshaped into a new form.
  3. Reconstruction - Continuing the flow of energy so as to reform the material into a new shape.

In standard practice, Equivalent Exchange is separated into two parts:

  • The Law of Conservation of Mass, which states that energy and matter can neither be created from nothing nor destroyed to the point of elemental nonexistence. In other words, to create an object weighing one kilogram, at least one kilogram of material is necessary and destroying an object weighing one kilogram would reduce it to a set of parts, the sum of which would weigh one kilogram.
  • The Law of Natural Providence, which states that an object or material made of a particular substance or element can only be transmuted into another object with the same basic makeup and properties of that initial material. In other words, an object or material made mostly of water can only be transmuted into another object with the attributes of water.

Al's feats

This video show a little combat ability for Al since Ed is the main focus in an attempt to stall.

@0:20 Al blocks of the street.

@0:56 Ed & Al constructs the street into projectiles.

@3:41 The size can be seen of how large the constructs along with the ability to animate them & construct in quick secession. Due to the stone nature they crumble under their own weight. Al can also use constructs as means of transport.

The last little bit is a gag it's the comic equivalent of P.I.S.

.

This video has more feats but some have to be omitted due to his possession of a philosopher stone or PS(meaning no equivalent exchange). But I'll cue you in on those.

Start-0:40 Al makes a dust cloud which he is capable of without a stone. Notice Kimblee says again. Using cover Al gets the drop on Kimblee decking him a few meters away. Kimblee counter with alchemy creating an explosion but it's quickly blocked by Al. Dodging most of Prides attacks (regenerating his hand would be the work of the PS) and quickly Al transmutes a sword out of his previously amputated foot to dodge and cut his way forward.(the redirecting sword trick also PS).

@0:45-1:25 Al creates an expanding path way that he is able to guide & considering he has preformed a similar feat this is not out of his capabilities. Al makes stone coffins to trap Pride. (flash bombs were due to PS)

Last few mins is more dust, sneaking and added strategy.

Cap's Feats

Agility

.

Speed

Shield Accuracy & Striking Power

.

Strength

I'll post DD's feats with a scenario later.

#5 Edited by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity:

First off, I would like to say that we have fought each other twice before before my CP zonked out. So drawing you made this a formidable and unwanted battle in the first round. I know this is going to be good

Second, since we are both not new to battle tourney's, I really appreciate you not opening with how you could end my team in just one paragraph like some other posters might tend to do.

Now my retort:

You brought up good points. What you didnt factor in and would like to be made known:

1- I have two known leaders in Cyclops and Hawkeye while you have one in Captain America. It is widely known that Cyclops and Captain America are both great at prep. Hawkeye (leader of WCA, Thunderbolts, Great Lake Avengers and now on Secret Avengers) and Captain America probably have the longest tenure among the Avengers then anyone outside of maybe Thor.

2-We both start 1.5 miles away in the scenario. I have the distinct advantage in range on my team which I why I assumed you allowed me to go first.

Also, you said:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

Al is also in charge of traveling. With his constructs they can travel over the buildings & since every thing is made of steel/concrete his constructs will not fall apart.

I have a guy, Daredevil, with a radar sense, telepathically linked to a guy with an energy beam that comes from his eyes in Cyclops. If you want to take to the air, it probably would look like this. You stated this strategy, Im just stating how bad it would be to do it.

or like this

here is a link explaining how fast Cyclop's optic blast are

http://imageshack.us/f/62/cyclopsspeedoflightlb1.jpg/

3-I still dont know how you will close that distance with me having longe range hit capability. And to furthur help my cause, in this setting, with a telepathic connection to Dardevil and his radar sense, the attack from Cyclops can look like this. here he is bouncing his optic blast of buildings a few times and hitting the target

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/copyofscan8ax3an.jpg/

4-Regarding Captain America. The thing that you fail to realize is that Captain America is blocking things with his shield with frontal attacks. Here are a couple links and pics of how he can get around that

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/000arge00bm.jpg/

cant get enough of this one

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/copyofscan8ax3an.jpg/

the above pics are cyclops hitting Morbius and the Hulk with ricochet shots

5-as for Captain America's speed, here are a couple of pics of him taking out speedblitzers in Quicksilver and Northstar...in which I assume I will get no argument that Captain America not achieving this attack speed

if need be, I can always do this, lol, but I doubt you can get that close with Cyclops hitting from afar and then hawkeye filling in the gaps

I dont want to jam everything in one post so Ill start another one with Hawkeye and Daredevil

#6 Posted by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity: @Esquire:

Also, Cyclops and my team may not know who Al Elric is, but Cyclops has much experience in people with similar abilities with the youtube clip you have provided:

I do get 45 mins to know who they are and what they do to strategize that

#7 Posted by Pokergeist (22327 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#8 Posted by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity:

Hawkeye:

Clint Barton is one of my top 5 heroes period. The guy goes around trying to help against the likes of Thanos and others way above his class with just a bow and arrow. The thing that makes Hawkeye great in my eyes is that he tend to win on guile and guts. The dude wants to win.

Here is Clint dishing out against the Grandmaster, an Elder of the Universe at his own game as proof:

The thing that makes the above pic great is that no matter what the odds he is trying. Here heis a gamesman. A bluffer. According to the rules, you know Hawkeye and that he has bow and arrows. You dont know what arrows. For all purposes, Clint could say he has a nuke arrow to your team. (I know that was in Ultimates but just take the premise. He knows he doesnt have a nuke arrow but you guys dont know he doesnt have a nuke arrow. Captain America knows that Clint has a ton of trick arrows.)

As for arrows I do have, Clint is equipped with a couple of sonic arrows. If they wanted to, they could take all radar sense off the board if it got close enough in battle, which I still dont know how you penetrate my range attacks teamed with radar sense, Clint could disorient both Daredevil's to get your DD off the board since they will both be disoriented, Once we can take oout your Daredevil, hawkeye could take out the sonic arrows to get our radar sense back. We would be equipped with such a contingency since we have sonic arrows and you dont. We would know what to do when we try and take out radar sense. We know where to run and where to regroup.

The thing that is great about the sonic arrow is that it doesnt have to hit Daredevil. Just in the area. You have explosive grenades but those are thrown projectiles. Hawkeye could easily take them out since he has been known to have great accuracy and the ability to fire multiple arrows at once

Here is another scan of Hawkeye's abstract thinking. He is facing the Abomination. A Gamma brute. He has an adamantium arrow, which he is equipped in this battle. Most of us would probably this unbreakable arrow, but he uses it as a conduit to electrify the brute

If you are wondering would Daredevil take out DDs radar sense to take your DD out off the game since we would have a plan to do so, I would say yes. Win at all cost

The main purpose of Hawkeye is to take out anything that may get past Cyclops targeted optic blast. He is more then adept at that and holding his own in any case

Hawkeye is more then willing to snipe anything that gets through, cuz he to would be telepathically linked to Daredevil.

I would also like to add that Hawkeye and Captain America have a long standing Avenger relationship. He probably can tell what Steve is thinking as could Steve with Clint. The thing is, I would like to state that I have two known leaders on my team in Cyclops and Hawkeye (leader of WCA, Thunderboltsm bolts, Great Lake Avengers, on Secret Avengers now) while you have one in Captain America. We both have great leaders in Cyclops and Cap, but I have another one.

To close, the points I made with Hawkeye:

1- his main job is to take out anything that may leak through Cyclops blast. Also shown to take out any thrown projectiles with accuracy

2- he has a long standing knowledge of Captain America to integrate with Cyclop's plan.

3-win at any cost

4- a way to take out your Daredevil radar sense with a stronger way then your possible way, and with that a contingency plan to get our Daredevil back into the game with some time, which would be factored in with our 45mins. And remember, sonic waves dont have to hit the target, just get in the area. I have shown Hawks ability to mix things up

If you want, I could place some scans of his fighting close quarters....

Should we get into Daredevil?

#9 Posted by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity:

I thought I could also post some youtube of how far an arrow can travel.

1st vid is a shot on bullseye traveling 240 yards (almost 2and a half football fields) go to around 1:48 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCOn2HkJJt8

here is another one at 140 yards

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr2McOMJLgQ

#10 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (6355 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschePG: Excuse the wait. Was commenting via phone. Plus my computers been on so it might have looked like I've been on for hours.

First off, I would like to say that we have fought each other twice before before my CP zonked out. So drawing you made this a formidable and unwanted battle in the first round. I know this is going to be good
Second, since we are both not new to battle tourney's, I really appreciate you not opening with how you could end my team in just one paragraph like some other posters might tend to do.

I also expected this to be interesting and well thought out.

Debate is about convincing someone of how a battle should play out IMO. Until I put forth facts & feats I don't believe you should be convinced. But that's just me.

Now my retort:
You brought up good points. What you didnt factor in and would like to be made known:
1- I have two known leaders in Cyclops and Hawkeye while you have one in Captain America. It is widely known that Cyclops and Captain America are both great at prep. Hawkeye (leader of WCA, Thunderbolts, Great Lake Avengers and now on Secret Avengers) and Captain America probably have the longest tenure among the Avengers then anyone outside of maybe Thor.
2-We both start 1.5 miles away in the scenario. I have the distinct advantage in range on my team which I why I assumed you allowed me to go first.

The first point will not factor in as much with limited prep & my team being blood-lust with prior knowledge. So leadership is push off to the side making room for facts and feats.

That's while the second point is good for rang it does not factor in Cap & DD's agility, Al's defenses or the amount of cover the city naturally provides. Cyclops does not focus his beams to cut steel against some one of peak human durability & Hawkeye does not go right for the kill with his deadliest arrows. That's Bullseye's M.O.

Also, you said:
Al is also in charge of traveling. With his constructs they can travel over the buildings & since every thing is made of steel/concrete his constructs will not fall apart.
I have a guy, Daredevil, with a radar sense, telepathically linked to a guy with an energy beam that comes from his eyes in Cyclops. If you want to take to the air, it probably would look like this. You stated this strategy, Im just stating how bad it would be to do it.
3-I still dont know how you will close that distance with me having longe range hit capability. And to furthur help my cause, in this setting, with a telepathic connection to Dardevil and his radar sense, the attack from Cyclops can look like this. here he is bouncing his optic blast of buildings a few times and hitting the target
4-Regarding Captain America. The thing that you fail to realize is that Captain America is blocking things with his shield with frontal attacks.

From what I understand you we both start street level. So using the tops of buildings give my team the high ground an ample cover.

While you stress the use of the telepathic link with DD you don't take in mind that it works both ways. If your DD can see my team my DD can see your team's movement attacks and positions. So before Cyclops' fires an attack Cap & Al take defensive measures. Al constructing barriers and Cap bracing for the impact while staying on the move forcing their way closer.

With his radar/senses being impaired form obstructions close by he still pin point a sniper's position just before bullets fly.

Getting all this info as DD thinks it Cap and Al have the time and reflexes to prepare for any direction.

5-as for Captain America's speed, here are a couple of pics of him taking out speedblitzers in Quicksilver and Northstar...in which I assume I will get no argument that Captain America not achieving this attack speed
if need be, I can always do this, lol, but I doubt you can get that close with Cyclops hitting from afar and then hawkeye filling in the gaps
I dont want to jam everything in one post so Ill start another one with Hawkeye and Daredevil

I will not debate Cap's speed over speedsters. But what is debatable is Caps reflexes/ ability to react.

Cap is able to react to the optic blast. Going by the dialog Cyclops is ticked just because Cap's there.

Plus with DD on my team there isn't any blind spots. Not forgetting Cap's agility for close rang to dodge & cover form Cyclops' aim.

@boschePG: Going into your second post.

The thing that makes the above pic great is that no matter what the odds he is trying. Here heis a gamesman. A bluffer. According to the rules, you know Hawkeye and that he has bow and arrows. You dont know what arrows. For all purposes, Clint could say he has a nuke arrow to your team. (I know that was in Ultimates but just take the premise. He knows he doesnt have a nuke arrow but you guys dont know he doesnt have a nuke arrow. Captain America knows that Clint has a ton of trick arrows.)
As for arrows I do have, Clint is equipped with a couple of sonic arrows. If they wanted to, they could take all radar sense off the board if it got close enough in battle, which I still dont know how you penetrate my range attacks teamed with radar sense, Clint could disorient both Daredevil's to get your DD off the board since they will both be disoriented, Once we can take oout your Daredevil, hawkeye could take out the sonic arrows to get our radar sense back. We would be equipped with such a contingency since we have sonic arrows and you dont. We would know what to do when we try and take out radar sense. We know where to run and where to regroup.

DD can sense the arrows Hawkeye is equipped with shape, size, smell, & potential use. A nuke arrow would be a big heat signature both DD's could not ignore. Cap knows Hawkeye's usual arsenal (their is a comic team up called Cap & Hawkeye) or grabbing the right arrow wouldn't have been easy. With both being able to react to Hawkeye's arrows.

.

Sonic arrows at close range would put your team in a major disadvantage. Out of 6 characters 2 are highly sensitive, 2 are will be uncomfortable in the least & 1 is immune having no pain ears or to speak of. Guest who that might be. Blood lust Al can kill your DD and take out the sonic arrow in one move fairly simple. Plus the fact that your team is only willing to KO and my DD can recover given time.

Retreating would get them shot in the back. If you would like to make a case for your team regrouping you may.

.

The thing that is great about the sonic arrow is that it doesnt have to hit Daredevil. Just in the area. You have explosive grenades but those are thrown projectiles. Hawkeye could easily take them out since he has been known to have great accuracy and the ability to fire multiple arrows at once
Here is another scan of Hawkeye's abstract thinking. He is facing the Abomination. A Gamma brute. He has an adamantium arrow, which he is equipped in this battle. Most of us would probably this unbreakable arrow, but he uses it as a conduit to electrify the brute
If you are wondering would Daredevil take out DDs radar sense to take your DD out off the game since we would have a plan to do so, I would say yes. Win at all cost
The main purpose of Hawkeye is to take out anything that may get past Cyclops targeted optic blast. He is more then adept at that and holding his own in any case
Hawkeye is more then willing to snipe anything that gets through, cuz he to would be telepathically linked to Daredevil.
I would also like to add that Hawkeye and Captain America have a long standing Avenger relationship. He probably can tell what Steve is thinking as could Steve with Clint. The thing is, I would like to state that I have two known leaders on my team in Cyclops and Hawkeye (leader of WCA, Thunderboltsm bolts, Great Lake Avengers, on Secret Avengers now) while you have one in Captain America. We both have great leaders in Cyclops and Cap, but I have another one.

Your first scan is form Here Comes Daredevil 2 only referencing it because sonic arrows will not nearly be as much produced in that scan. Both DDs will black out for the rest of the fight.

The win at all cost thing I'm not convinced it means kill. Defiantly not against heroes. While Hawkeye questioned his moral code he clearly did not cross the line. As for the Scarlet Witch it was brought about during the HOM situation where the Avengers discussed lethal force as a means of action.

In my address to your previous post leadership will not change the out come of a battle like it would in the plot. Facts & feats will.

To close, the points I made with Hawkeye:
1- his main job is to take out anything that may leak through Cyclops blast. Also shown to take out any thrown projectiles with accuracy
2- he has a long standing knowledge of Captain America to integrate with Cyclop's plan.
3-win at any cost
4- a way to take out your Daredevil radar sense with a stronger way then your possible way, and with that a contingency plan to get our Daredevil back into the game with some time, which would be factored in with our 45mins. And remember, sonic waves dont have to hit the target, just get in the area. I have shown Hawks ability to mix things up
If you want, I could place some scans of his fighting close quarters....
Should we get into Daredevil?

The first two work both ways.

Fighting two the best of their abilities is battle form rules but you have not proved killing is Hawkeye's character. Blood-lust is the only thing separating Hawkeye form killing his opponents or KO/incapacitating them. My team has blood-lust so every shot is a kill shot.

Your contingency plan leads to a dead Daredevil nothing more.

I think we understand DD's capabilities so any scan posted can be uses by both sides. Since DD is equal in stats I don't think it's much of a debate even against his blood-lust self w/ a sword.

Despite your teams assault on them, my team will push through and get close quarters from the high ground.

Far as individual fights go, I'll bring out some points that favor my team.

Al vs Hawkeye

Al's Advantages.

  • Adamantium arrows will pierce him but not hurt or slow him down.
  • Damaged parts & openings will be fixed with steel all around.
  • Al can out last Hawkeye. Al doesn't fatigue, Being a soul bond to a suit of armor he doesn't need to sleep or eat.
  • Explosive arrows can be stopped with a barrier of concrete & steel.
  • Carbonadium arrows will not nullify Al from reconstructing his body.
  • Sonic arrows will not work
  • Net arrow won't work
  • Glue arrow can be stopped with a barrier or deconstruct the bonds of the glue.
  • A blood-lust Al will be using deadly constructs.
  • Al can shift the landscape to make unseen traps(dust, spikes, walls, coffins & giant hands ect.).

Cap vs Cyclops

Cap's Advantages.

  • Cap is not in character & Cyclops will go all out even if he loses.
  • Cap has better stats = better physical feats.
  • Cap can dodge or cover form Cyclops' optic blast.
  • Shield blocks any and all damage baring of matter manipulation and magic.
  • Cap is able to use his shield solely for defence having an assault rifle.
  • Cap is a better tactician & constantly uses the environment to his advantage.
  • A connecting shield throw would KO or kill Cyclops.

Picture this sense with cap having an assault rifle ready to use it.

Spiderman is a bullet timer with precog dodges the shield but is still set up by Cap.

DD vs DD

Have nothing to argue.

#11 Posted by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

That's while the second point is good for rang it does not factor in Cap & DD's agility, Al's defenses or the amount of cover the city naturally provides. Cyclops does not focus his beams to cut steel against some one of peak human durability & Hawkeye does not go right for the kill with his deadliest arrows. That's Bullseye's M.O.

I would have to disagree with your statement here. I have the distinct advantage in range. Cyclops does not need to focus his beams to cut through the city buildings, I have provided proof that he can riccochet shots off the building to hit a target from a far. Here is a link to that again:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/copyofscan8ax3an.jpg/

I have also proven that both Cyclops and Hawkeye think abstractly. I dont want to get into a H2H combat in this battle. My job is to keep the range and disorient your group. I believe all your scans are of up close fighting. Mine are to keep you at a distance and keep you at a distance.

Cyclops doesnt need to cut through a building in an unpopulated city, he could just do this:

Cyclops could also do this and seperate the group

I have already shown in the first post of Cyclops of his expertise in hitting multiple targets at once. Here are more:

I think you are relying on Cap and DDs ability to dodge multiple laser targets with the initial assault. You guys are bullet dodgers but Cyclops has been known to take out speedblitzers. I posted a post explaining how fast his beams are. Ill post another one. Read the captions.

I dont even have to kill you. Captain America and DD have no healing factor. Hit a leg and they will bleed. You want controlled willingness, here is one from Cyclops

The city is unpopulated and with all the stuff Cyclops can tear down just to keep you away, it provides a great way to attack since your team lacks in range to get me. Even if you get close, I could always push you back.

I will post another retort but have to go to class regarding Hawkeye. I agree that any Daredevil comment goes both ways, so I think its safe to assume we both know DDs role in this battle. I just think its hard for you to keep dodging laser attacks from a mile and a half. A human person can run the mile in about 4 minutes. So you guys have about 4-6 minutes to find me. With the radar and laser beam attacks, its like a guided surface to air guided missile. You want to go airborne with the distance we have you will get shot down which I have proved. Cyclops doesnt even have to see you guys cuz of Daredevil.

Ill be back

#12 Posted by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

That's while the second point is good for rang it does not factor in Cap & DD's agility, Al's defenses or the amount of cover the city naturally provides. Cyclops does not focus his beams to cut steel against some one of peak human durability & Hawkeye does not go right for the kill with his deadliest arrows. That's Bullseye's M.O.

As stated, you said Cyclops would not focus his beam to cut steel (quote provided) in which I provided that Cyclops has focused his beams on human flesh and can knock out buildings with a blast. He also can start blowing up every obstacle int he city like cars, which I have provided

Now on Hawkeye:

Wont kill???

He shoots a bow and arrow. He killed Wanda and he also kills three Skrulls with headshots. Be bloodlusted all you want, he doesnt have to kill. I was trying to state with the other scans is that he thinks abstractly, so he could fire something into a car, or hit a leg with you guys having no healing factors. Or set something off and make you spin into something. Like this:

He doesnt have to kill you. Just wound you, but he can

part 1

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/copyofscan8ax3an.jpg/

part2

http://s38.beta.photobucket.com/user/RageOfTheGod/media/RoninvsDAV4.jpg.html?fromLegacy=true

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

.

Sonic arrows at close range would put your team in a major disadvantage. Out of 6 characters 2 are highly sensitive, 2 are will be uncomfortable in the least & 1 is immune having no pain ears or to speak of. Guest who that might be. Blood lust Al can kill your DD and take out the sonic arrow in one move fairly simple. Plus the fact that your team is only willing to KO and my DD can recover given time.

It is largely forgotten that Hawkeye is almost completely deaf in both ears. He wears hearing aids. If its a contingency plan anyways, he would know to take them out. Here is his official handbook read out. Go to abilities for proof of his deafness

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/h/hawkeye.htm

If you guys were to get close enough, it is out of character for Hawkeye to start shooting people. He thinks abstractly. He sets off distractions. Its in the plan that they are ready for. He could telepathically say to Cyclops also where to fire. Do you really need to see a scan of Cyclops getting told to fire with telepathy???

Range, range and range.

And I think Ive given good reasons for contingency

#13 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (6355 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschePG: There is some misunderstands & the fact you didn't respond to my whole post. So this is mostly restating some points of my previous post.

I would have to disagree with your statement here. I have the distinct advantage in range. Cyclops does not need to focus his beams to cut through the city buildings, I have provided proof that he can riccochet shots off the building to hit a target from a far.
I have also proven that both Cyclops and Hawkeye think abstractly. I dont want to get into a H2H combat in this battle. My job is to keep the range and disorient your group. I believe all your scans are of up close fighting. Mine are to keep you at a distance and keep you at a distance.

The reason I brought up the fact his ricochet beams will not cut threw buildings(concrete, steel, rebar ect.) is Al is constructing the buildings for barriers to block Cyclops' blast. I'm not dismissing a valid strategy. Cyclops would need to put considerable force behind his blast to ricochet & break the 5-10 ft thick walls Al will be making. Also firing at a moving target that's tracking Cyclops' aim in advance(my DD).

If you'er substituting "abstractly" for "out of character", then no you have not proven such.

Saying you will not get into a discussion dose not mean it's not valid reasoning. Definitely when backed by proof/feats.

Not entirely true. Cap's speed shows his ability to close a distance, & shield accuracy & striking power is self explanatory. Al has showed the ability to construct expanding path way, animated giant hands, walls etc. My scans/videos provided reasoning behind my entire debate.

Cyclops doesnt need to cut through a building in an unpopulated city, he could just do this:
Cyclops could also do this and seperate the group
I have already shown in the first post of Cyclops of his expertise in hitting multiple targets at once. Here are more:
I think you are relying on Cap and DDs ability to dodge multiple laser targets with the initial assault. You guys are bullet dodgers but Cyclops has been known to take out speedblitzers. I posted a post explaining how fast his beams are. Ill post another one. Read the captions.
I dont even have to kill you. Captain America and DD have no healing factor. Hit a leg and they will bleed. You want controlled willingness, here is one from Cyclops

The first two scan are not incharacter combat wise and have context to them that does not apply here. I don't see Cyclops leveling the terrain which would kill Cap & DD(something his morals will not allow).

Scratching my head at this. My team is moving in unison from roof to roof. Unless you mean in the context of close quarters. Which it wouldn't matter since they are singling off targets.

Understandable but I have not dismissed your previous scans (I have posted rebuttal).

I have not debated against the speed of the optic blast the simple fact that the "servos" don't move at the same speed(captions support this) makes it possible to react & aim dodge.

Going over these two scans. The shield at Cap's side then front and center bracing against the optic blast. Plus the fact Cap was caught off guard.

You?? Me?? Anywho...

Like this.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Not seeing Cyclops readiness to uses deadly force against heroes. But if you say so.

The city is unpopulated and with all the stuff Cyclops can tear down just to keep you away, it provides a great way to attack since your team lacks in range to get me. Even if you get close, I could always push you back.

Nuke every thing stance I see. But there is canon material showing Cyclops will not go those lengths to beat Cap (AvX scans above). A blast to keep Cap down or KO Cap is understandable.

I will post another retort but have to go to class regarding Hawkeye. I agree that any Daredevil comment goes both ways, so I think its safe to assume we both know DDs role in this battle. I just think its hard for you to keep dodging laser attacks from a mile and a half. A human person can run the mile in about 4 minutes. So you guys have about 4-6 minutes to find me. With the radar and laser beam attacks, its like a guided surface to air guided missile. You want to go airborne with the distance we have you will get shot down which I have proved. Cyclops doesnt even have to see you guys cuz of Daredevil.

I haven't seen any thing regarding radar sense being over a mile. Sure he can track with smell & sound but that is not what Cyclops needs. Cyclops will have to wait until my team is a few blocks away to start their attacks.

My team is more than human Cap run a mile a minute (approximately), DD is peak human above Olympic runners, & Al can create a construct to ride faster than any human can run. Plus they start at separate end of the battleground all that is required is going forward until DD picks up movement. You make it sound like my team is in free floating space. Tthey are moving over the city via roof tops. My team knows where cyclops is aiming via DD(mater of the ricochet shot).

As stated, you said Cyclops would not focus his beam to cut steel (quote provided) in which I provided that Cyclops has focused his beams on human flesh and can knock out buildings with a blast. He also can start blowing up every obstacle int he city like cars, which I have provided

And I have address why this is not his character.

Now on Hawkeye:
Wont kill???
He shoots a bow and arrow. He killed Wanda and he also kills three Skrulls with headshots. Be bloodlusted all you want, he doesnt have to kill. I was trying to state with the other scans is that he thinks abstractly, so he could fire something into a car, or hit a leg with you guys having no healing factors. Or set something off and make you spin into something. Like this:
He doesnt have to kill you. Just wound you, but he can

Yes he will not use lethal force on Cap, DD & he doesn't even know how to kill Al.

All ready addressed the HOM scans.

The best examples you have are Skrulls & Daken?? Villains.

It is largely forgotten that Hawkeye is almost completely deaf in both ears. He wears hearing aids. If its a contingency plan anyways, he would know to take them out. Here is his official handbook read out. Go to abilities for proof of his deafness
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/h/hawkeye.htm

So it's not something he will use? But I have given rebuttal on this.

If you guys were to get close enough, it is out of character for Hawkeye to start shooting people. He thinks abstractly. He sets off distractions. Its in the plan that they are ready for. He could telepathically say to Cyclops also where to fire. Do you really need to see a scan of Cyclops getting told to fire with telepathy???
Range, range and range.
And I think Ive given good reasons for contingency

Hawkeye will not use lethal force against my team I agree with that. But distractions or not, when my team gets close it will become Hawkeye vs Al.

Hmmmm.

#14 Posted by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity:

Ladies and gentlemen of the battle board jury....

Im going to try and clean this up to disprove that my opponent will get close enough to my team and strategy. Let me bring up the scan you wanted to go in detail:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

I have not debated against the speed of the optic blast the simple fact that the "servos" don't move at the same speed(captions support this) makes it possible to react & aim dodge.

Going over these two scans. The shield at Cap's side then front and center bracing against the optic blast. Plus the fact Cap was caught off guard.

The pics are right and fit with the the stated comments and links regarding cyclop's optic blast speed and the servos in his visor.

The thing is, is it actual ability to move or action-reaction regarding the attack counter attack. Since the battle can use past experience to factor into things. Captain America and Cyclops know each other in the scan above. They have fought more then a few times. Now go to the first pic which you provided in which you said Caps shield was at his side then front and center bracing against the optic blast.

That is true, BUT..you failed to express that Cyclops visor is not glowing in the top scan and is glowing in the last panel before Cap braces for the hit in the next scan next to it. It would be implied that when Cap saw the glow (his servos opening) he knew to react to move his shield up to protect from the blast...since it is proven they know each other.

The undeniable fact is that Cyclops still hit his target...on his vibranium shield. Directly on the target. It can not be denied that it wasnt. Captain America did not dodge the attack, he got hit, but due to his shield was able to take the blunt of the blast.

What can not also be denied is that Daredevil and Al do not have Vibranium shields to absorb the impact.

Now I would like all those following this battle to something else you said:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

My team is more than human Cap run a mile a minute (approximately), DD is peak human above Olympic runners, & Al can create a construct to ride faster than any human can run. Plus they start at separate end of the battleground all that is required is going forward until DD picks up movement. You make it sound like my team is in free floating space. Tthey are moving over the city via roof tops. My team knows where cyclops is aiming via DD(mater of the ricochet shot).

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

My team is moving in unison from roof to roof. Unless you mean in the context of close quarters. Which it wouldn't matter since they are singling off targets.

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

I haven't seen any thing regarding radar sense being over a mile. Sure he can track with smell & sound but that is not what Cyclops needs. Cyclops will have to wait until my team is a few blocks away to start their attacks.

You yourself stated that you would be transported by Al. You also said that Cap is more then human and Daredevil at peak human Olympic class level. You stated that you are coming in toward me. The field is only 1.5 miles wide. How else would you attack me with Captain America and Daredevil?

I dont need to kill you. KO is good to win. Maming is good enough. Blasting Al into the river in this pic is good enough

#15 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (6355 posts) - - Show Bio

@Esquire: @boschePG: I'll have a rebuttal up before we start voting.

#16 Posted by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity: you want to go to voting?

#17 Posted by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity:

for hawkeye feats, I thought this slideshow of feats would be good.

1;25 - Jams Crossfires gun with his arrow.

2:07 shoots Banner to save his life.....you know what comes next

2:48 fighting a bunch of Hand ninjas

I have all these comics but it was easier to find these instead of going through my comic boxes

#18 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (6355 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschePG: I'm a custom to debaters addressing my whole post, I see that as mutual respect.

The pics are right and fit with the the stated comments and links regarding cyclop's optic blast speed and the servos in his visor.
The thing is, is it actual ability to move or action-reaction regarding the attack counter attack. Since the battle can use past experience to factor into things. Captain America and Cyclops know each other in the scan above. They have fought more then a few times. Now go to the first pic which you provided in which you said Caps shield was at his side then front and center bracing against the optic blast.
That is true, BUT..you failed to express that Cyclops visor is not glowing in the top scan and is glowing in the last panel before Cap braces for the hit in the next scan next to it. It would be implied that when Cap saw the glow (his servos opening) he knew to react to move his shield up to protect from the blast...since it is proven they know each other.
The undeniable fact is that Cyclops still hit his target...on his vibranium shield. Directly on the target. It can not be denied that it wasnt. Captain America did not dodge the attack, he got hit, but due to his shield was able to take the blunt of the blast.
What can not also be denied is that Daredevil and Al do not have Vibranium shields to absorb the impact.

There is no panel indicating Cap is ready for the blast. If the case is "Cap was ready" then he would have braced in advanced and not gone flying back.

Like so.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

What is also undeniable is Cap is fast enough to block Cyclops aim. With DD radar giving for warning on Cyclops aim he can do it again.

more than human level peak human above Olympic level So....if Daredevil is at a lesser human athletic standard then Captain America and does not have a vibranium shield, am I and the rest of the followers of this battle supposed to believe that Daredevil can dodge Cyclops optic blast, compared to the speed of light on the scan and on a previous scan, with no vibranium shield when Captain America himself was not able to dodge the attack?

Comparing DD to Cap is not relevant, Cap is not the standard to aim dodge Cyclops & Cyclops' aim is not infallible.

You are not understanding it all comes down to tracking trajectory. DD can see Cyclops(once in rang) and vice versa. It takes no more than Al building a steel wall in advance not to obscure the radar sense(because that wouldn't work) but obscure Cyclops' trajectory. Cyclops can only ricochets shot once my team is within a few blocks (the extent of radar sense) & he does not preform it instantly. Which makes it reasonable that Cap & Al working together can block optic blast. Protecting my team and moving forward.

So you concede that my team wins close range. Then I accept.

Higher ground is actual only beneficial when the people with the higher ground can actually use it. Is Cap going to throw his shield from plus 20 stories of a building? How about Daredevil? From your strategy, Al is not only in charge of transportation but also erecting barricades against Cyclops optic blast. Am I also to assume he will also be able to attack while erecting barricades and transporting the team while maybe also dodging optic blast of his own? It seems like alot and would need actual evidence he could do all things.

Now you are interjecting a different strategy into my post. My teams goal is to get close once in considerable rang they will divide and conquer.

Cap will not be throwing his shield away long range it would ultimately get shot out of the air. If he needs to attack he has a assault rifle on had. Why would he not use that?

DD is incharge tracking your team's movement, weaponry, & attacks. Basically anything & everything my team will encounter.

Al is easy to understand. What is transport if it can't get you there in one piece? Who said Al has to dodge? Other than building barriers along the way the ricocheting optic blast will not afact him. He feels no pain and the optic blast was not intended to pierce steel.

You yourself stated that you would be transported by Al. You also said that Cap is more then human and Daredevil at peak human Olympic class level. You stated that you are coming in toward me. The field is only 1.5 miles wide. How else would you attack me with Captain America and Daredevil?
I dont need to kill you. KO is good to win. Maming is good enough. Blasting Al into the river in this pic is good enough

Your team can not attack form 1 1/2 mile distance period. That part of my previous post you did not address. ಠ_ಠ

Yes they are advancing but DD can't radar sense until a few blocks away. So inadvertently Cyclops can't ricochet shot until a few blocks away.

Radar Sense.

This is his consistent showings to this should be his limit. Not 1 1/2 mile not even a mile.

Your team cant KO Al. Incapacitation, yes(but they don't know that). Since your team can't KO my whole team from that distance. My team is not disqualified & may recuperate. And I find BFR in this debate laughable.

Conclusion

You have conceded that any close quarters fight my team will win. So rang is your only option. Cyclops is your primary method of maintaining a distance (about a mile). That being ricochet shots & removing his visor. Hawkeye is your back up to Cyclops & he also will be using lethal force to maintain the distance backed by your scans of him killing. DD serves one purpose(radar sense) as your team will never engage close quarters. But if that distance is by past DD becomes bait to remove my DD.

I have debunked your ricochet shots from 1 1/2 miles by use of radar. With actual radar sense feats. I have also provided reasons on why lethal force will not be used by your team, why ranged attacks can be by passed, & close quarters is the only way this fight will be decided.

I found this debate interesting & now ready for votes.@Esquire: @boschePG:

#19 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (6355 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschePG said:

#20 Posted by Pokergeist (22327 posts) - - Show Bio

Holy hell this is cut up. Looking it over.

#21 Posted by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity: Conclusion: so you think your whole team, with no range attacks can think to fight and think to dodge and calculate riccochet shots at the near speed of light. Can your team think to calculate that? Your team can calculate faster then the speed of light to also calculate riccochet shots?

Im ready to vote too.

#22 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (6355 posts) - - Show Bio

@boschePG: If you would like to have the last post you may. ◔_◔

#23 Posted by Pokergeist (22327 posts) - - Show Bio

Im convince of the range. Slight edge to BoschePG.

#24 Posted by name12345 (560 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote Team BoschePG.

Approaching Cyclops and Hawkeye with radar sense is really hard,

Cap can do it, but Al and DD would probably get injured in the process,

They both did great providing scans and debating feats... but i say this location was more suitable for BoschePG.

#25 Posted by Dextersinister (5087 posts) - - Show Bio

Bosche, pointing out how many action's you where expecting Ed to perform was a good point.

#26 Posted by boschePG (1971 posts) - - Show Bio

I will gladly have the final post. I would like to say I did appreciate the battle. I will state that your strategy is to get through the distane attacks on my team. I find it really hard to believe that all three of your guys could do that unscathed. If they do not get hit by an optic blast, some riccochet is going to get them. Your team has no healing factor to counter that. Your team isnt fast enough I believe to get through constant attacks from afar. Knowing what is coming and being able to actually dodge what is coming are two different things. I dont know if you watched Last Samurai, but Tom Cruise and the other samurai knew the gatling gun was coming. COuld they dodge it? I can know a 99MPH fastball is coming at me. Its another thing to actually hit it. Daredevil and Al, are much less slower then Cap. Al does not show of any feats of speed. Neither does DD since he has been hit by the Bullett and Ammo and many other non speed attacks. And I have shown tags of Cyclops hitting speedsters. I just believe that in this scenario, its basically a speedblitz attack with the optic blast

#27 Posted by wbr17 (174 posts) - - Show Bio

my vote is to boschePG

#28 Posted by Fetts (4082 posts) - - Show Bio
@Mr_Ingenuity@boschePG
 
I actually give the edge to Mr. Ingenuity. Both raised great points, but I found that Mr. I countered and analyzed a tad better than Bosche could. Furthermore, I think Bosche was over-exaggerating a bit. For example, Cyclops' optic blasts moving at the speed of light is not consistent at all. Stating that would suggest that characters like Deadpool, Bullseye, and Captain America have FTL reflexes, and that's simply not true.
 
But the both of you put up an entertaining debate! Good work!
#29 Posted by ToO_RaW (1077 posts) - - Show Bio

Mr_Ingenuity gets my vote

#30 Posted by Sovereign91001 (3349 posts) - - Show Bio

Close one, very close but I'm gonna give the edge to @boschePG

#31 Posted by Veitha (2307 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for @boschePG