#1 Posted by HigorM (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

vs

RULES

  • No prep.
  • In character.
  • Standard equip.
  • Random encounter.
  • Standard elimination rules apply.

Location:

Barnes starts at respawn B (blue)

Natchos starts at respawn A (red)

#2 Edited by RunawayAvenger (473 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Elektra takes this, she is so much more stealthy and would know where Barnes is from the start, she has mind switch enabling her to be Barnes and she also has minor precognition.

#4 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

Winter Soldier.

I haven't read much of Elektra, to be fair, but I've seen her lose more often than I've seen her win. She's a competent street leveler, but she's not on Bucky's level.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#5 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

and she also has minor precognition.

I think that's an ability she's shown on a very minimal level. Almost as to where you could pretty much say she doesn't have it. Mostly any character that is more skilled than her (which Bucky is) hasn't had trouble beating her based on this ability.

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#6 Edited by dondave (36685 posts) - - Show Bio

Winter Soldier

#7 Posted by SlimJ87D (9736 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: <---- This guy knows a lot more about Elektra than I do. I can't give too much of an opinion here.

#8 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

going with elektra

#9 Posted by laflux (15504 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

@vance_astro: <---- This guy knows a lot more about Elektra than I do. I can't give too much of an opinion here.

#10 Edited by Dredeuced (5510 posts) - - Show Bio

I will go with Elektra. Though she sometimes acts as a Worf to other street levelers, she's got an enormous bucketlist of crazy freaking feats that anyone could argue to put her above Bucky, imo.

#11 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

I will go with Elektra. Though she sometimes acts as a Worf to other street levelers, she's got an enormous bucketlist of crazy freaking feats that anyone could argue to put her above Bucky, imo.

I don't think anyone could argue that her feats put her above Bucky because anyone who knows their body of work can see his feats are CLEARLY better. Elektra can barely hang with Bullseye, although SHE holds the 1up in their encounters she's BARELY beaten him every time they've fought accept the FIRST fight where he killed her. Had he not toyed with her in Dark Reign, she'd probably be dead.

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#12 Posted by Pokeysteve (8266 posts) - - Show Bio

Leaning towards Elektra based on stealth abilities.

#13 Posted by jwalser3 (4915 posts) - - Show Bio

Winter Solider.

#14 Edited by HigorM (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

nice, I want some moar!!

#15 Posted by ThexX (1567 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: Her stealth ability is a none factor here. Here is the reason why.

Domino Mask

As the Winter Soldier, Bucky's mechanical arm can let out a propagation of sound for his mask to receive and translate it into a 3D map. This allows him to see invisible enemies. Pretty much Dare Devil envy.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60545/2856801-winter_solider_015_zone_013.jpg

Other then posting this. I won't say who wins because I don't know anything about Elektra.

#16 Edited by Pokeysteve (8266 posts) - - Show Bio

@thexx said:

@pokeysteve: Her stealth ability is a none factor here. Here is the reason why.

Domino Mask

As the Winter Soldier, Bucky's mechanical arm can let out a propagation of sound for his mask to receive and translate it into a 3D map. This allows him to see invisible enemies. Pretty much Dare Devil envy.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60545/2856801-winter_solider_015_zone_013.jpg

Other then posting this. I won't say who wins because I don't know anything about Elektra.

That's awesome. I don't know enough about WS to debate further here.

#17 Edited by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: You really dislike the Punisher:p

Anyway,Bucky ftw.

Elektra never impressed me.

#18 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

Elektra. Elektra all day.

#19 Posted by IIXIIOIIXII (41 posts) - - Show Bio

is buckys arm made out of adamantium

#20 Edited by HigorM (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@iixiioiixii: no.

@stronger said:

@higorm: You really dislike the Punisher:p

Anyway,Bucky ftw.

Elektra never impressed me.

haha, I was wondering if anyone would notice that :P

@lykopis: bias? :P

#21 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Avatar aside, lol, Elektra has this. There is no way Winter Soldier can compare to her in terms of abilities and while I am in no way saying he's easy to beat, to say he can take out Elektra (especially in the environment this battle is in) is just not true.

Her feats are there for anyone to see for themselves -- while Bucky is by all means, arguably the best Russian assassin (I might still argue for Black Widow there), Elektra is the best over-all.

#23 Posted by HigorM (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: Can you present me her feats? I just can´t see her being superior to Bucky on those aspects..

#24 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm:

Beat Wolverine

Beat Bullseye (three times)

Beat Silver Samurai (even taking his sword for her own use)

Contrary to what others have said, her mesmer powers are on panel -- for some reason people prefer to ignore the feats shown in her Assassin mini where it shows her ability to deflect bullets amongst other feats.

The last time she beat Bullseye it was at a handicap due to his drugging of her with poisoned arrow.

Fought with Gorgon and was able to mindshield herself against him.

Expert marksman.

Expert Swordsman.

Able to tear out a man's heart, barehanded.

The above are just random feats off the top of my head. Her stealth abilities alone are enough to give her the advantage her and while I do admit Winter Soldier's arm's mapping abilities are impressive -- her speed would be more than enough compensation to take him out.

#25 Edited by New_World_Order (13088 posts) - - Show Bio

Elektra

#26 Edited by God_Spawn (37764 posts) - - Show Bio

Elektra would need to make her stealth shot matter and since Bucky is packing gear to get around that and is a master of stealth himself, I find it hard to believe she is getting a majority based off that one factor.

She's barely been able to beat Bullseye 3x. Lost a sword fight to Hercules, someone who albeit having lots of experience, does not show it often. She stalemated Black Widow, someone Bucky trained and has beaten himself rather quickly.

If you want to go higher on the food chain, her fights with Wolverine were circumstantial for the most part. Bone claw Wolverine had a training session with her and Elektra suckerpunched Wolverine and began an attack. Wolverine didn't want a fight and while she manages to disarm him of a sword she gave him, he in return manages to parry her attacks, grabs her sword, vanishes, and sheathes it and tells her he isn't in the mood. Another Logan barely had a healing factor (I can't remember the full context). Another fight where a just back from the dead Logan with one eye, 90% of his body burnt, no hair, and was found in a ditch and was brought into a SHIELD med-bay and entirely bandaged from head to toe. He was still physically healing and roughed up and he awakens with his mind not entirely his own thanks to the Hand and he gets dogpiled by SHIELD agents and stabbed in the back with sais. He waits for an explosion to go off and he briefly engages Elektra and breaks her sais. She manages to stab him again in the neck, but Logan once again timed the events again and waited for the area to flood before swimming away. And another where she was controlled by the Hand and attacks Wolverine with him just blocking her swords before she manages to communicate without sound or language and ends up breaking the mind control.

Top food chain again with the Gorgon, I wouldn't call her fighting against him since she fails miserably every time. She manages to miss every shot with a machine gun while he mows down the SHIELD agents. She tries to mentally shield her thoughts but Tomi said she would have to do better than that. He stone stares the rest of the guards and tosses her a sword. They have a fight and Elektra doesn't land a single hit and Gorgon catches the sword, takes it from her and bites it and breaks off the blade except for a small chunk and hands it back to her before landing strike after strike on her and KO's her. Gorgon was toying with her the whole time before he ends up delivering her to the Hand. If she was really able to SHIELD herself, she wouldn't have needed the psi blockers in the 2nd encounter when she teamed up with Wolverine. And in that one, they had teleporters, psi-blockers, and cloaking devices, and Elektra manages to make one hit following Wolverine's lead. That quickly turns to Tomi grabbing a wood beam and bashing Elektra's face with it and causing her to lose her psi block and Wolverine mentions that she will be read like a book then. Actually, that one shot took her out completely as Gorgon then beat Wolverine with the wood beam and stabbed a sword through his throat before killing the rest of the guards and using Elektra's teleportation device to get to Nick Fury along with a semi-conscious Elektra.

So on average, Elektra's mediocre. Bucky's been consistently proven as a top tier in Marvel or at least closing that gap since he's beaten Crossbones a few times, and once with Sin IIRC or at least fought them off. He's beaten Batroc and as goofy as he is, Batroc is good. And he beat someone that was 2x times Steve's superior in the statistical department (6x Bucky's physical superior so I don't see Elektra having any physical advantage that will make a difference) and not that bad of a fighter either. If you want to compare apples to apples to top tiers, Bucky was able to give a slightly holding back Daredevil a solid fight and Bucky has one upped Logan a few times himself in certain circumstances. Regarding these two opponents however, both Daredevil and Wolverine are their superior regardless in terms of overall showings. In terms of overall showings, Bucky has Elektra by a sizable margin.

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#27 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@higorm: ....... Why is Punisher at the butt end of every scan?

Yeah, thats more accurate.

This is more accurate.

Just saying.

Also Bucky wins.

#28 Edited by HigorM (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: Well, it´s not that I deslike Punisher, not at all, but I find those scans cool so I wanted to use them, but you´re right, the last scan you posted is better :P

#29 Edited by HigorM (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@higorm:

Beat Wolverine

Beat Bullseye (three times)

Beat Silver Samurai (even taking his sword for her own use)

Contrary to what others have said, her mesmer powers are on panel -- for some reason people prefer to ignore the feats shown in her Assassin mini where it shows her ability to deflect bullets amongst other feats.

The last time she beat Bullseye it was at a handicap due to his drugging of her with poisoned arrow.

Fought with Gorgon and was able to mindshield herself against him.

Expert marksman.

Expert Swordsman.

Able to tear out a man's heart, barehanded.

The above are just random feats off the top of my head. Her stealth abilities alone are enough to give her the advantage her and while I do admit Winter Soldier's arm's mapping abilities are impressive -- her speed would be more than enough compensation to take him out.

All her fights against Wolverine are debatable as already greatly stabilish by @god_spawn

Against Bullseye I wouldnt call a decent showing since he killed her in the first encounter and every fight since then she find it difficult to beat him.

And Silver Samurai isn´t a top tigher fighter either..

All other feats are against cannon fodder, I wouldnt go by this route since Bucky have tons of feats against cannon fodder too.

Bucky still have better showings and feats then Elektra, so I don´t think those abilities are enough for her to win.

Her stealth ability would be a key factor against someone who doesn´t know how to deal with it or ways to counter it, which is not the case here.

#30 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

Elektra would need to make her stealth shot matter and since Bucky is packing gear to get around that and is a master of stealth himself, I find it hard to believe she is getting a majority based off that one factor.

She's barely been able to beat Bullseye 3x. Lost a sword fight to Hercules, someone who albeit having lots of experience, does not show it often. She stalemated Black Widow, someone Bucky trained and has beaten himself rather quickly.

If you want to go higher on the food chain, her fights with Wolverine were circumstantial for the most part. Bone claw Wolverine had a training session with her and Elektra suckerpunched Wolverine and began an attack. Wolverine didn't want a fight and while she manages to disarm him of a sword she gave him, he in return manages to parry her attacks, grabs her sword, vanishes, and sheathes it and tells her he isn't in the mood. Another Logan barely had a healing factor (I can't remember the full context). Another fight where a just back from the dead Logan with one eye, 90% of his body burnt, no hair, and was found in a ditch and was brought into a SHIELD med-bay and entirely bandaged from head to toe. He was still physically healing and roughed up and he awakens with his mind not entirely his own thanks to the Hand and he gets dogpiled by SHIELD agents and stabbed in the back with sais. He waits for an explosion to go off and he briefly engages Elektra and breaks her sais. She manages to stab him again in the neck, but Logan once again timed the events again and waited for the area to flood before swimming away. And another where she was controlled by the Hand and attacks Wolverine with him just blocking her swords before she manages to communicate without sound or language and ends up breaking the mind control.

Top food chain again with the Gorgon, I wouldn't call her fighting against him since she fails miserably every time. She manages to miss every shot with a machine gun while he mows down the SHIELD agents. She tries to mentally shield her thoughts but Tomi said she would have to do better than that. He stone stares the rest of the guards and tosses her a sword. They have a fight and Elektra doesn't land a single hit and Gorgon catches the sword, takes it from her and bites it and breaks off the blade except for a small chunk and hands it back to her before landing strike after strike on her and KO's her. Gorgon was toying with her the whole time before he ends up delivering her to the Hand. If she was really able to SHIELD herself, she wouldn't have needed the psi blockers in the 2nd encounter when she teamed up with Wolverine. And in that one, they had teleporters, psi-blockers, and cloaking devices, and Elektra manages to make one hit following Wolverine's lead. That quickly turns to Tomi grabbing a wood beam and bashing Elektra's face with it and causing her to lose her psi block and Wolverine mentions that she will be read like a book then. Actually, that one shot took her out completely as Gorgon then beat Wolverine with the wood beam and stabbed a sword through his throat before killing the rest of the guards and using Elektra's teleportation device to get to Nick Fury along with a semi-conscious Elektra.

So on average, Elektra's mediocre. Bucky's been consistently proven as a top tier in Marvel or at least closing that gap since he's beaten Crossbones a few times, and once with Sin IIRC or at least fought them off. He's beaten Batroc and as goofy as he is, Batroc is good. And he beat someone that was 2x times Steve's superior in the statistical department (6x Bucky's physical superior so I don't see Elektra having any physical advantage that will make a difference) and not that bad of a fighter either. If you want to compare apples to apples to top tiers, Bucky was able to give a slightly holding back Daredevil a solid fight and Bucky has one upped Logan a few times himself in certain circumstances. Regarding these two opponents however, both Daredevil and Wolverine are their superior regardless in terms of overall showings. In terms of overall showings, Bucky has Elektra by a sizable margin.

Unfortunately, I disagree with pretty much your entire take on all these instances. All of of them. All these "barely" won foughts and "shoulda woulda coulda" all come off as preference as compared to what did happen.

She has beaten Bullseye -- the last time severely handicapped and with him running away terrified. To claim Bucky is remotely close to Elektra is terms of stealth is an opinion unsubstantiated. Elektra more than has him beat here and I can toss tonnes of instances in which she approached Daredevil in his sleep to be up and close.

Circumstantial fights with Wolverine? Boneclaw Wolverine or not, she took him down and has proven herself on par with most street-levelers when it comes to hand to hand combat. One hand you claim she barely beats someone one and then you claim sucker-punching when it can be interpreted as one-shotting. Tomatoe -- tomahtoe.

She did mindblock Gorgon -- and yes, while he did knock her out -- he did so by your definition -- sucker-punching her. This instance it's one-shotting? Gorgon was not toying with her -- he was shocked when SHIELD showed up to stop him because of the intel Elektra got on them. Anyway -- this isn't a debate about what happened with Gorgon, it's about Elektra and Bucky -- and considering what she is capable of, telepathetically, she could use her silent scream to send him flying, or throw mental imagery into his head to confuse him long enough to take him down. All his fancy stealth tech would do nothing to help him there.

LOL -- while I am not going to argue you about top-tierness, Elektra is by far superior to Bucky. While I certainly understand his popularity, to claim him being better than her is ridiculous when taking in both their histories.

Sticking with abilities -- Elektra has this -- not easily -- but should she take what she has at her disposal, she wins.

@higorm said:

@lykopis said:

@higorm:

Beat Wolverine

Beat Bullseye (three times)

Beat Silver Samurai (even taking his sword for her own use)

Contrary to what others have said, her mesmer powers are on panel -- for some reason people prefer to ignore the feats shown in her Assassin mini where it shows her ability to deflect bullets amongst other feats.

The last time she beat Bullseye it was at a handicap due to his drugging of her with poisoned arrow.

Fought with Gorgon and was able to mindshield herself against him.

Expert marksman.

Expert Swordsman.

Able to tear out a man's heart, barehanded.

The above are just random feats off the top of my head. Her stealth abilities alone are enough to give her the advantage her and while I do admit Winter Soldier's arm's mapping abilities are impressive -- her speed would be more than enough compensation to take him out.

All her fights against Wolverine are debatable as already greatly stabilish by @god_spawn

Against Bullseye I wouldnt call a decent showing since he killed her in the first encounter and every fight since then she find it difficult to beat him.

And Silver Samurai isn´t a top tigher fighter either..

All other feats are against cannon fodder, I wouldnt go by this route since Bucky have tons of feats against cannon fodder too.

Bucky still have better showings and feats then Elektra, so I don´t think those abilities are enough for her to win.

Her stealth ability would be a key factor against someone who doesn´t know how to deal with it or ways to counter it, which is not the case here.

1) I disagree with the fights with Wolverine. Wolverine himself has admitted this.

2) It is a decent showing, especially the last fight. (refer to my response to godspawn).

3) Silver Samurai isn't top tier -- depends on who to talk to. Suffice it to say, Elektra's fight with him shows her ability to take on people much larger and stronger than herself -- especially armoured.

4) Unfortunately, Elektra does have tonnes of cannon fodder and this is with hordes of ninjas. I am not basing my argument for her winning on this. It's not needed.

5) Her abilities -- such as having chi and speed and silent screams and mental telepathy and easily casting aside bullets -- even machine gun fire to showcase her speed are more than enough to take on showings and feats of Bucky.

6) Bucky could not counter Elektra's stealth -- she would know which route to take when taking him out and it would be expedient.

There is no doubt in my mind Elektra is superior to Winter Soldier in this battle. All I have come across is opinion, conjecture and attempts to toss aside canon feats which do nothing to counter her top-tier assassin expertise, let alone super-human abilities. While I appreciate what Bucky is capable of and of course, his popularity, to place him the winner of this battle is to ignore a tremendous amount of canon history with Elektra when battling with other characters.

I am done here. My debate is based on information. Anything further is simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

Again -- I say Elektra wins.

#31 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

Elektra.

Especially since it's in character; Bucky would give some condescending speech asking her if she's sure she wants to do this, during which she'll kick his head off. Then I go and read a Batman comic.

#32 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

Why does everyone keep using feats of characters against Wolverine as proof of a character's skill? He's had so many low end appearances that almost every street-leveller in the Marvel Universe has at some point "one-upped" in an embarrassing manner.

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#33 Posted by God_Spawn (37764 posts) - - Show Bio

Why does everyone keep using feats of characters against Wolverine as proof of a character's skill? He's had so many low end appearances that almost every street-leveller in the Marvel Universe has at some point "one-upped" in an embarrassing manner.

To hype them up or make them relevant lol.

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#34 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio


To hype them up or make them relevant lol.

Time to toss in Nick Fury stabbing Logan through the ear with a knife or Murdock judo-chopping his neck!

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#35 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

(Deleted because I am better than this.)

#36 Posted by God_Spawn (37764 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

To hype them up or make them relevant lol.

Time to toss in Nick Fury stabbing Logan through the ear with a knife or Murdock judo-chopping his neck!

I'm not sure if the Fury one is canon. But Ennis just hates Logan :P. But in general, Wolverine is a good stepping stone to try and make someone look like a threat. They did it with Mister X, Daken, and Gorgon for example. But out of those guys, Gorgon was the one that's loss wasn't really solidified since Logan pulled a Hail Mary by reflecting the stone stare back and couldn't even match his skill to begin with which says something since EoS had its fair amount of showings for Logan.

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#37 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not sure if the Fury one is canon. But Ennis just hates Logan :P. But in general, Wolverine is a good stepping stone to try and make someone look like a threat. They did it with Mister X, Daken, and Gorgon for example. But out of those guys, Gorgon was the one that's loss wasn't really solidified since Logan pulled a Hail Mary by reflecting the stone stare back and couldn't even match his skill to begin with which says something since EoS had its fair amount of showings for Logan.

Yeah, Gorgon is the only character out of that bunch that Wolverine truly never stood a chance against. Not sure on how Fury stabbing Logan plays into canon either but it was amusing :P I wish Logan would get more stories similar to Enemy of the State that allows Logan to showcase more of his skill and training and not just revert to his brutish tactics where he simply bull-rushes and tanks every attack. I'd find it far more appealing and intriguing to see Logan utilizing his skill rather than going toe-to-toe with a character like Hulk.

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#38 Posted by HigorM (3740 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, Gorgon is the only character out of that bunch that Wolverine truly never stood a chance against. Not sure on how Fury stabbing Logan plays into canon either but it was amusing :P I wish Logan would get more stories similar to Enemy of the State that allows Logan to showcase more of his skill and training and not just revert to his brutish tactics where he simply bull-rushes and tanks every attack. I'd find it far more appealing and intriguing to see Logan utilizing his skill rather than going toe-to-toe with a character like Hulk.

QFT.

I would love to read any story of Logan using his martial artist and combat skills on top of his hundred years experience on the battlefield. Seems like the writers in general are too lazy to develop the character as it should be treated.

#39 Edited by Owie (3701 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this is a pretty close fight. Bucky has probably managed to get more consistent feats against higher level foes due to his time as Cap etc. But I still think Elektra's overall abilities are higher. And she certainly has better stealth, she's snuck up on Daredevil.

#40 Posted by daredevil21134 (11560 posts) - - Show Bio

Elektra

#41 Posted by TDK_1997 (14724 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky would own her.