Elektra vs Nightwing (H2H)

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xcell777

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#51  Edited By xcell777

@the_red_viper:

- I was not referring to the fight where Tasky beat her due to plot (she was drugged or hallucinating or something but then she snapped out of it and beat him). I was referring to some fight when she beat him and 2 other fighters (don't remember who) in as many panels. She also stalemated Shang Chi.

I'd like to know what comic that took place in since the only fights I'm aware of between the two happened in issue #7 of her series where Taskmaster beat her the first time around by mimicking Daredevil's moves against her with his eyes closed nonetheless. To her credit, she does turn around and beat him the second time around once she knows what she's up against rather quickly which is exactly the fight I think you're talking about. I don't recall her being drugged before or during those battles though so I'm not sure what made you think that since that's not shown anywhere.

Also, you do realize that Shang Chi's pure hth showings (no chi involved) aren't superior to Dick's now right? There was a time when you could've said that but definitely not now.

- And yes her speed is not only way above NW's but above anyone in the Bat Family. Strength too.

No it's not.

She may have superior speed feats (I'm sure she has better speed reflex feats at least) but that doesn't mean NW wouldn't be able to land multiple strikes against her in a fight or beat her. NW has made a very good habit out of giving people who are supposedly far superior to him physically a very tough time or prove them wrong about not being able to best them in melee combat when he has numerous times now.

BTW, I think you're confusing lifting strength with striking power which is different since I doubt she can actually lift more than NW (not that it matters in a fight normally) who's physically more well built than her but I could be wrong its just that I've never see her lift anything.

Bottom line, her speed while impressive isn't going to stop NW from being able to dodge and hit her numerous times especially with his impressive agility and speed. It would be a back and forth fight.

- Nightwing is an awesome fighter and I love him as a character but Elektra stomps him.

Then it shouldn't be hard to prove this.

Show me the A-list fighters she's "stomped" so badly that Nightwing would have zero chance against her or even land a single blow because that's what a real "stomp" is.

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the_red_viper

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#52 the_red_viper  Moderator

@xcell777:

I don't have the issue number. I just have the scans. You can look up the thread, Google "this is war r1: international army vs conversationalists" or something like that.

I haven't read the issue where Tasky beat her thanks to plot but then got best by her, all I know is that she was drugged/hallucinating/distracted or something like that, then she snapped out of it and beat him.

And the Shang Chi fight isn't anything recent. So yeah it still applies for a great feat.

Her speed is definitely superior to NW's, or to any street leveler he has faced. She blitzed a group of armed men that surrounded her before they finished saying "you are under arrest", crossed an entire room and gutted an armed man before he fired a single bullet (he was aiming at her), disarmed Punisher so fast that he didn't even realize it, and much more. Not to mention her making bullet timers look slow with her crazy bullet-dodging feats. Her reaction is on the Drakon level or even better.

And I was talking about striking power. She was able to throw her sai into the barrel of a gun with enough force to rip the gunman's hand off and propel it through his chest. Which was protected by Kevlar. And it went straight through his back and again through the Kevlar.

In the 2 fights I was talking about of her against Matt, she displayed amazing abilities. In the first, he started attacking her and she let him go at her while trying to calm him down. When she decided she had enough she simply grabbed him in an arm-lock and smiled. In the second one she took him by surprise from a distance, which isn't quite the h2h feat but she DID get the jump on Daredevil which should be near impossible to street levelers.

So yeah she pretty much stomped DD and she will do the same to NW.

Posting feats for Dick that are on this level will help your argument. You keep trying to downplay Elektra while basically saying "trust me Nightwimg wins". Not working.

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PsychoPsychology

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Elektra

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ParagonNate

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The Lethal Lady in Red.

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xcell777

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#55  Edited By xcell777

@the_red_viper:

- I haven't read the issue where Tasky beat her thanks to plot but then got best by her, all I know is that she was drugged/hallucinating/distracted or something like that, then she snapped out of it and beat him.

I'm pretty sure its issue #7 since she later on beat Zaran and Fatale alongside Taskmaster quickly. I'm also not sure what plot has to do with Taskmaster beating her when his eyes were closed meaning he purposely handicapped himself and still won. Regarding the drugged/hallucinating/distracted thing I still haven't seen any evidence of what you're referring to but I'll look around some more to see if they had another fight somewhere that I'm not aware of that you may be talking about.

- And the Shang Chi fight isn't anything recent. So yeah it still applies for a great feat.

Which creates a problem for Elektra since Shang Chi has no hth feats that NW couldn't match or exceed at this point. Proving my point about NW being able to give her a good fight.

- Her speed is definitely superior to NW's, or to any street leveler he has faced. She blitzed a group of armed men that surrounded her before they finished saying "you are under arrest", crossed an entire room and gutted an armed man before he fired a single bullet (he was aiming at her), disarmed Punisher so fast that he didn't even realize it, and much more. Not to mention her making bullet timers look slow with her crazy bullet-dodging feats. Her reaction is on the Drakon level or even better.

That's great and all but show me examples of her blitzing known A-list martial artists and outright overwhelming them with her far superior speed in 1 on 1 fights not against mobs or no name people. Again this shouldn't be hard since I can easily point out examples of NW reacting to people supposedly much faster than him and still even matching them in hth combat.

One example: NW is able to catch Deathstroke's sword with both hands (showing off his reflex speed, strength, and skill) as well as disarm him of his gun and break the staff in his hand without Slade laying a hand on him in process due to NW's agility and speed. The fact that he can do all that to Slade of all fighters who operates at super human levels ahead of Dick only proves my point that Elektra not going to be overwhelming NW with her speed.

In turn I'm just asking you to show me examples of her doing this to known high level fighters.

- And I was talking about striking power. She was able to throw her sai into the barrel of a gun with enough force to rip the gunman's hand off and propel it through his chest. Which was protected by Kevlar. And it went straight through his back and again through the Kevlar.

I figured you was talking about striking power which why I corrected you. In which case it won't make a big difference since we've seen NW hurt meta humans with invulnerability and high level fighters with enhanced durability.

- In the 2 fights I was talking about of her against Matt, she displayed amazing abilities. In the first, he started attacking her and she let him go at her while trying to calm him down. When she decided she had enough she simply grabbed him in an arm-lock and smiled. So yeah she pretty much stomped DD and she will do the same to NW.

Are you talking about the fight where a naked Matt in the bed thought Elektra was hostile and attacked her with Elektra then restraining him and talking him down? If not you'll have to give me the issue number so I can look this up.

However, if this is the instance you're talking about at best this is a good showing not a real fight given the circumstances. We both know Elektra would not "stomp" Daredevil at all especially when she's shown to have serious trouble with Bullseye several times.

- In the second one she took him by surprise from a distance, which isn't quite the h2h feat but she DID get the jump on Daredevil which should be near impossible to street levelers.

This feat really doesn't matter in this kind of fight since we're talking strictly hth combat. Cool feat though if what you're saying is accurate.

- Posting feats for Dick that are on this level will help your argument. You keep trying to downplay Elektra while basically saying "trust me Nightwimg wins". Not working.

I've been trying to get you to post actual combat showings of her "stomping" known A-list fighters this entire time so I can make this interesting by countering them but you have yet to really do so. Giving 1 example of her restraining and talking down DD doesn't work in your favor since it wasn't a real fight especially since Matt made her bleed again proving my point that she's not "stomping" NW if I'm in fact correct about the fight you're referring to.

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the_red_viper

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#56 the_red_viper  Moderator

@xcell777: yes, that's that, just found it. She wasn't drugged or anything, yes, but there was still plot behind it. She was going through emotional trauma and Tasky using DD'soves only made it worse (which explains closing his eyes). Then she snapped out of it and beat him, Zaran and Fatale in 3 panels. So yeah, here's her stomping an A-lister (don't know much about Zaran and Fatale but Tasky is definitely an A-lister). About the fight with the naked DD, it sure as he'll counts. She let him go at her and didn't do anything to defend herself (hence her bloody face) but then took him in an arm lock with laughable ease. The second one is less relevant, yes, but still showcases the skill and speed needed to take Daradevil by surprise. She threw her sai at the back of his head, which knocked him out.

About the Shang Chi fight, like I said, it's an old one. Don't know how good he is now, but you can look up this old thread I told you about. It has all the fights I was talking about. I can't seem to find the Wolverine one but I'll look for it.

Bullseye, as far as I know, is very inconsistent. I'm aware of him beating Elektra but it's not like Nightwing was never beaten by anyone.

And again I'll mention her disarming Punisher so fast that he only realized he was disarmed when he saw his gun in her hands. Another A-lister.

Nightwing disarming Deathstroke is hardly impressive considering the numerous times Deathstroke beat him into the ground (many of which appear in the same thread I told you about).

Again, you're either downplaying or ignoring the feats that I mention. Doing that does not help your case. Elektra will beat Dick real bad.

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TheNaughtyTitan

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Elektra gonna beat him down.

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xcell777

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@the_red_viper:

- yes, that's that, just found it. She wasn't drugged or anything, yes, but there was still plot behind it. She was going through emotional trauma and Tasky using DD'soves only made it worse (which explains closing his eyes). Then she snapped out of it and beat him, Zaran and Fatale in 3 panels. So yeah, here's her stomping an A-lister (don't know much about Zaran and Fatale but Tasky is definitely an A-lister).

Actually, Taskmaster using DD's moves threw her off which is why she lost the first time around (she was actually doing real good up until that point) plus the fact that Taskmaster went as far as closing his eyes when he didn't have to since he's used DD's moves before without closing his eyes several times only made her loss much worse.

Like I said before though, her coming back and quickly beating him is indeed a great feat. However, she was only able to pull this off AFTER she knew what she was up against and what to expect from Taskmaster.

It's not the same as besting a guy (Midnighter) who has a super battle simulation computer in his brain that can read and predict all your moves on top of being physically superior in every way since he's super humanly enhanced PLUS having prepared to fight you by memorizing all your moves and still getting the upper hand on him like Dick has done.

- About the fight with the naked DD, it sure as he'll counts. She let him go at her and didn't do anything to defend herself (hence her bloody face) but then took him in an arm lock with laughable ease. The second one is less relevant, yes, but still showcases the skill and speed needed to take Daradevil by surprise. She threw her sai at the back of his head, which knocked him out.

Are you kidding?

Matt was NAKED in bed with his wife resting when Elektra came to him and assumed the worse wanting to protect his wife so how exactly can you say that Matt was at his best? This wasn't a normal fair fight by any means neither can temporarily restraining someone long enough to talk them down be considered a win. Do you really think DD would've been beaten so quickly in a fair fight when one of their previous fights was back and forth with Elektra using even using prep to beat him? Come on you have to do better then this.

Also, I'm still not sure why you think taking someone down via surprise attack someone would count as impressive in a pure hth fight. This isn't relevant at all.

If that's the case then NW KOing Batgirl via surprise attack with 1 punch would count as a fair win which we both know would be ridiculously unfair to assume.

- About the Shang Chi fight, like I said, it's an old one. Don't know how good he is now, but you can look up this old thread I told you about. It has all the fights I was talking about. I can't seem to find the Wolverine one but I'll look for it.

Is that the fight where they had a brief exchange in a restaurant? If so, that really wasn't much of a fight at all neither was it really strictly hth but it's still a good feat for both. However, as I said given Shang Chi's record in pure hth combat against known fighters I'm not sure why you think NW couldn't easily replicate this proving my point about Elektra not being able to stomp him at all.

Regarding the Wolverine fight, are you referring to the fight they had in Enemy of the State?

- Bullseye, as far as I know, is very inconsistent. I'm aware of him beating Elektra but it's not like Nightwing was never beaten by anyone.

Of course Nightwing has been beaten before but the point you seem to be overlooking or rather not understanding is that NW has not lost at all in a fair 1 on 1 fight since he's improved as a fighter after he took over for Batman. Every A-list fighter NW has been matched up against he's either beaten or pulled off a stalemate even against opponents who were supposedly superior to him physically. That in a nutshell is really my point: NW is NOT going to be stomped at all in this fight and would give Elektra a very tough time.

Bullseye btw can be inconsistent but he has proven to be a tough fight for Elektra several times pretty consistently who's not on NW's level in pure hth combat (a normal fight is different story and would be closer) which only proves my point even further.

- And again I'll mention her disarming Punisher so fast that he only realized he was disarmed when he saw his gun in her hands. Another A-lister.

Punisher is not an A-list martial artist. He's a high level B-lister on average. Save a few rare occasions, he usually gets beaten soundly by A-listers in pure hth combat and usually needs weapons to keep up or even stand a chance at all against them.

- Nightwing disarming Deathstroke is hardly impressive considering the numerous times Deathstroke beat him into the ground (many of which appear in the same thread I told you about).

Are you aware that the last fight they had was a stalemate back when Dick was Batman? It's around this time when Dick improved as a fighter and Slade himself even notices how his fighting style has changed and improved every other fight that happened before that was before Dick's upgrade in skill. This isn't even counting the 2 other times when NW has pulled off stalemates before this fight showcasing just how good he is. Since then NW has not lost a single fight against any A-lister which just happens to include Deathstroke again proving my point about Elektra not "stomping" NW at all.

Also, tell me how many people have actually CAUGHT Deathstroke's sword empty handed while Slade was swinging at them and lived? That is a VERY impressive feat of speed, strength, and technique especially since Slade trumps Dick physically all across the board.

- Again, you're either downplaying or ignoring the feats that I mention. Doing that does not help your case. Elektra will beat Dick real bad.

I'm not sure how I'm ignoring feats when I'm directly addressing them and showing you that you've been wrong about them and correcting you but if you say so. What's funny about this is that I'm not even arguing for the majority in NW's favor here instead I'm just showing you that Elektra would not "stomp" him at all especially when he hasn't been beaten since his skill upgrade which is something you're not understanding.

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deactivated-5d86fd79c2e73

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I think this will be a stalemate in pure hand to hand, or Nightwing 5.5 Out of 10.

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ElderSkaar

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#60  Edited By ElderSkaar

I'm gonna leave my bias and say Elektra wins this, but only because of this being hand to hand. With gear and gadgets Grayson takes her out

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the_red_viper

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#61 the_red_viper  Moderator

@xcell777: doesn't matter what it was that threw her off. The fact is that there was plot/context behind it, it wasn't fair for her. Once she snapped out of it she stomped Tasky (an A-lister) and 2 other fighters in as many panels. Which is pretty humiliating. Can Dick do that?

Beating Midnighter shouldn't be happening without plot/context. He's well above street level if you ask me. What exactly happened there again?

I don't see how DD being naked has to do with anything. All I know is that Elektra let him hit her while trying to calm him down. Then she took him in an arm lock. Yes, that's definitely a win.

And the other feat if her against DD isn't completely irrelevant. It matters because it was against Daredevil. Who the hell gets him, of all people by surprise? I dunno if it was thanks to her speed, skill or anything else, all I know is that it happened and that it's a great feat.

I don't recall where the Wolverine fight is from but I'll look it up.

Regarding Bullseye, I'm no expert on him but I do know he has been beaten by many fighters lesser to Elektra numerous times.

The sword-catching feat is impressive but the numbers are still against him. He was beaten by him countless times, even after becoming Batman. Plus, Slade's strength and speed aren't anything that can't be matched and exceeded by Elektra. The Punisher feat shows her amazing speed, and the sai-throwing feat shows that she can hit with the force of a bullet and go all Liu-Kang if she's not pulling her punches.

I feel like we're going nowhere with this, so I'll end it here. You did make some good points though. I never said Elektra would win 10/10 with her eyes closed, a 8/10 is still pretty much a stomp in my eyes and that's what I was talking about the whole time. I still do think that thanks to having a huge advantage in speed and strength here makes her too much here. Add that to her amazing skill (I haven't even talked about pressure points) and her sheer brutality and lack of morals and you have Elektra winning at least a large majority over NW.

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HelixFlameYT

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Dick beat Batman and Midnighter before. I think he wins 5.5/10 times

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#63  Edited By xcell777

@the_red_viper:

- doesn't matter what it was that threw her off. The fact is that there was plot/context behind it, it wasn't fair for her. Once she snapped out of it she stomped Tasky (an A-lister) and 2 other fighters in as many panels. Which is pretty humiliating. Can Dick do that?

Why would you say it doesn't matter that it threw her off when she was clearly winning the fight beforehand? That only proves that DD's moves is the main cause as to why she lost in the first place. On top of that, the fact that Taskmaster purposely handicapped himself by closing his eyes only made Taskmaster's victory more impressive especially since its made clear that he could've killed her but didn't due to outside interference and doesn't need to close his eyes to use DD's moves.

Her easily beating Taskmaster the second time around is impressive but its only because he knew what she was up against which is what I've already explained.

Dick btw has never been in situation quite like this (having to fight back to back that is) that I'm aware of so impossible to compare which is why I've stuck to 1 on 1 fights out of fairness.

- Beating Midnighter shouldn't be happening without plot/context. He's well above street level if you ask me. What exactly happened there again?

Midnighter is definitely above street level physically but he's hasn't fully been shown to be on the same level as he was during his Wildstorm days at least not yet to be fair since he hasn't had as many appearances.

Regarding there two fights I'll try to be as detailed as possible since I'm too lazy to post the fights right now but I'll leave the references so you can look them up if you want:

Fight 1 (Grayson #1): Midnighter attempts to ambush Dick via sneak attack but fails with Dick then dodging his attacks and landing two strikes before head butted by Mids with there fight then being broken up through interference from a meta human.

Fight 2 (Grayson #6): Once again Midnighter ambushes Dick this time using a teleportation door to the God Garden and quickly starts to dominate the fight having this time prepared by memorizing all his moves as Nightwing and disarmed him of his escrima sticks. However, Dick is able to turn the fight in his favor by cleverly using his original fighting style back when he was Robin throwing Midnighter off since the style is completely different from his Nightwing moveset with Dick then grabbing Mids by the throat and standing over him with the fight entirely in his favor. Once Dick is about to use his Spyral hypnos implant in an attempt to end the battle, its revealed that Mids has taken it from him secretly somehow and Dick's eye begins to bleed distracting him and giving Mids the chance to regain the upper hand and starts to dominate the fight again. Just as Midnighter is about to finish Dick off after multiple hard strikes being landed, Dick has the idea to use the fail safe code word in his Spyral hypnos implant to shock Midnighter's brain weakening him enough for Dick to knock him out with a punch.

- I don't see how DD being naked has to do with anything. All I know is that Elektra let him hit her while trying to calm him down. Then she took him in an arm lock. Yes, that's definitely a win.

No it definitely isn't. I really doubt Matt was fully prepared a serious fight Elektra since he was resting when she came into his bedroom on top of being naked only proving my point. In addition, Elektra managing to temporarily restrain Matt doesn't mean she would've been able to hold him in that position if Matt hadn't stopped (through reasoning) and decided to hear her out especially given how there last fight has gone.

For example, Deathstroke has done something similar against Dick when he tackled him down to the ground and even had complete ground control having his back at the time only to be kicked right off by Dick so would you call that a win especially since Slade ended the fight by tactically retreating afterwards (I hope not)?

- And the other feat if her against DD isn't completely irrelevant. It matters because it was against Daredevil. Who the hell gets him, of all people by surprise? I dunno if it was thanks to her speed, skill or anything else, all I know is that it happened and that it's a great feat.

Dude...

It's a great feat yes I'm not denying that but its completely irrelevant since its not a HAND TO HAND feat which is what this fight is about: who would win the majority of the time in a pure hand to hand battle. As I said before if we're using that as evidence then I can easily use NW taking down Batgirl through surprise attack with 1 punch which is stupid. Hell, Dick has even managed to surprise Superbat (Batman with Superman's powers) despite his super hearing.

- Regarding Bullseye, I'm no expert on him but I do know he has been beaten by many fighters lesser to Elektra numerous times.

Yes, Punisher being among them in straight hth combat twice as a matter of fact IIRC which is ironic since Frank is no match for Elektra. Still, that hasn't stopped Bullseye from being a thorn in her side more times than not especially the last time they fought (that I know of in her own recent series) when Bullseye was "improved" by the Hand and nearly killed Elektra.

- The sword-catching feat is impressive but the numbers are still against him. He was beaten by him countless times, even after becoming Batman. Plus, Slade's strength and speed aren't anything that can't be matched and exceeded by Elektra. The Punisher feat shows her amazing speed, and the sai-throwing feat shows that she can hit with the force of a bullet and go all Liu-Kang if she's not pulling her punches.

Did you actually read my last post? It really seems you're not understanding me.

So I'll say it again, Dick has NOT been beaten by Deathstroke or any other A-lister AT ALL in hth combat since he's took over for Batman in his absence which was around the post-RIP/Final Crisis storyline era. This includes Ra's Al Ghul, Batgirl, Batman (even his Darkseid clone), and Midnighter (twice) all of which being A-list fighters which is what I was asking for from Elektra.

- I feel like we're going nowhere with this, so I'll end it here. You did make some good points though. I never said Elektra would win 10/10 with her eyes closed, a 8/10 is still pretty much a stomp in my eyes and that's what I was talking about the whole time. I still do think that thanks to having a huge advantage in speed and strength here makes her too much here. Add that to her amazing skill (I haven't even talked about pressure points) and her sheer brutality and lack of morals and you have Elektra winning at least a large majority over NW.

I have no problem with you or anyone thinking Elektra can win the majority of the time but there's NO WAY based off combat showings from Dick that she's going to "stomp" him when DC's best top tier fighters haven't been able to sorry but its not likely to happen in a fair 1 on 1 fight at this point.

I don't know about you but a hard stomp to me is a 10/10 easy sweep which is why I took issue with you were saying. Mind you, I don't even think it would be 8/10 (probably 5-6/10 for either one of them) but either way Elektra is definitely not winning easily. Anytime, pre-RIP/Final Crisis era you could've made a stronger agrument but definitely not now.

Anyway, its been at least entertaining debating this with you.