I want to have an Eisner Cup but the power level tiers of heroes haven't been established. I don't want a repeat of Buckshot's ubermob versus Gravnos's super street thugs.
The tier setting part is whats difficult. I know strength level is probably most commonly factored but for people like Brother Voodoo whose abilities are hard to gauge the catalouging part becomes difficult.
Tell you what... we have 5 tiers. Characters on first tier are worth 10pts and are in the range of street level people like Punisher and DareDevil.
Tier 2:20pts and...You know what let me check the stats that Buck posted for DC and marvel power levels
Everyone I like is over the limit and what's left doesn't make me feel like I'm getting enough bang for my 30 bucks.
How much would an Agent Orange or Holden Carver run me? And how do you rank psychics? Against another psychic with an established power level it's fair, but against someone with no psychic defense, even weak psychics can come out on top.
Orange and Carver 20
Psychics are judged on power level.
Karma: Xian Coy Mahn isn't weak per se but she's no Prof X.
Physically she's an average trained combatant equal to a G.I. Capable of dying or being inconpacitated
psychically she can dominate a person of average mental facility easily and win a labored battle with someone with psionic power equal or less than her own.
I give her a 20 because she is as vulnerable as you or I in all ways but one.
Doesn't he have any Coda mental fortification training that can stave off her attack long enough for him to point through her heart?
Or some shapers guild technique that reflects or refracts her wavelength enough for some struggle?
If no than he is a sitting duck and under her control until her powers are strained.I figure the power works like a muscle so prolonged use results in fatigue and eventual release of the victim. So all those factors involved she might be a 30 to Warblade.
I'm open to hearing your ideas about catalouging the mechanics of the powers as well.
Other than Grifter, only females are Coda, so he doesn't have any defense that way. The closest thing to any kind of mental skill that the shapers guild offers is pressure points and that's not even comparable so there's no defense there either.
The sitting duck thing is the problem. The same reason guys like Flash (extreme example, I know) aren't allowed in the competition is because they have powers that make them unstoppable. Psychics would have the same advantage unless facing another psychic. Most characters with both mental and physical strengths are >30. The ranks are fine, they just don't translate well from drastically different power types.
Let's do one and see how it goes. We can keep going and eventually we'll figure out something that works.
Basic strategy would be to avoid Shadow Cat and work on Black Panther first. Both of my guys can easily avoid Kitty (Terror might get caught but taking damage won't really bother him) and Midnighter can work on Black Panther while Terror hangs back. I doubt Kitty would fight alongside BP since she'd just get in the way (they have no experience fighting together) so Midnighter could take him easily. After the fight, Terror would use BP for parts and then Terror could fight Kitty since I don't know what her powers might do to Midnighter. He's not a robot so it's not like she can short circuit him, but she could probably mess him up simply because he can't touch her and she can still hurt him. Like I said, Terror can take damage (plus he'd have his original parts for replacements) and Kitty can't hurt him unless she's tangible so eventually she'd slip up (he doesn't tire since no part of him is actually alive) and he'd grab her while she attacked and he'd kill her, or Midnighter would predict when she would attack and thus when she'd need to be solid and could throw a shuriken at her.
Basically: Midnighter can beat Black Panther, Midnighter & Terror can avoid Shadow Cat, and either Midnighter or Terror (with Black Panther's parts for speed/skills) could beat Shadow Cat. And if all else fails and Shadow Cat stays intangible the whole time, Terror Inc is immortal so she wouldn't outlast him.
Yikes whatever shall we do. First BP would enter the fray targeting Midnighter whose melee attacks would be nullified by BP's skill/agility/vibranium weave suit. When he was in close enough proximity to MIdnighter Shadow Cat who was riding piggy back on BP making him intangible at the first attack of Midnighter. As Midnighter is confounded by why his attack didn't work and his doubt conflicts with his chosen battle plan Shadow Cat leaps through BP maintaining anonymity until the last moment grasping and phasing Midnighter into the ground up to his neck and allowing him to resolidify stuck. During that time BP is working Terror over slashing his connective tissues and striking nerve clusters immobilizing Terror long enough to toss him on top of the struggling Midnighter, who has found that he has no leverage and not enough strength to break up and out of the black top he is suffused with. For the coup de' grace Shadow Cat dogpiles on Terror pulling his body through Midnighter's and allowing Terror to fuse with both Midnighter his very expensive cybernetic upgrades and the dirt cheap ground. BP decapitates Whats left of Midnighter to harvest whats left of his battle computer for reverse engineering back in Wakanda and Shadow Cat tells the Terror he doesn't have to thank her for the spare parts. Then they both go and watch Cats on Broadway.
PS. BP throws the battle computer because the technology fused when Shadow Cat phased through it.....and Terror and the ground.
I vote for me:)
I didn't see this tactic but if you could, so could Midnighter. Similarly, if I can think of a way to stop it, so could Midnighter.
One possible solution: Midnighter sends Terror to fight and it plays out like the fight between them and Shadow Cat in my scenario. When she/they becomes tangible to strike, Midnighter picks her off leaving Black Panther at his mercy. Superior speed, strength and the ability to predict his moves would give Midnighter the upper hand. A simple neck snap or a slow asphyxiation would beat Black Panther without needing to worry about his suit's ability to reduce impact. However, Midnighter wouldn't necessarily have to avoid it. BP has been hit through his suit before and Midnighter, with his skull crushing blows, could replicate and surpass the force needed to cause damage.
I disagree on both counts. Midnighter does not see 'All'. He predicts from what he does see or you can add omniscience to the capabilities of his radioshack upgrades. Perfect example Seth who Midnighter had to use a door to get a jet to crash it into him.
Also I saw the tactic because I wrote it and if were breaking the fourth wall than Midnighter can see me, but that is not so. I can see Midnighter.
As for your possible solution Terror ain't quick or agile enough to tie up BP with Shadow Cat piggybacking in phase with him which brings us back to my original scenario. You obviously underestimate the strategical prowess of BP as well as the Wolverine trained prowess of Shadow Cat. And I don't believe Midi is immune to the haywire effect of SC's phase. BP knew from his own abilities to guage a fight that he was possibly outgunned and had to keep his ace in the hole.
By the way as Mid's voice if you didn't see the tactic neither did Midnighter.
Terror is well terrible so he is handled after the first gambit is played.
Victory Sling Shot. But you don't have to take my word for it lets get some voters.I got Buck's vote and mine so that makes 2.
Post Edited:2007-04-21 06:31:49
You saw that possibility but Midnighter, who is infinitely more adept at that sort of thing can't? Foolishness. He predicts from what he sees, yes, and he knows a persons upgrades/powers/whatever puts them above normal, as ones of his abilities. He'd know what Kitty can do and he'd see her on Black Panther and come up with a game plan. It's not omniscience, it's his powers working with normal vision. He'd use the same info about them that you have and see it as a possible tactic he'd have to face.
He used a door to get a jet because he didn't have a jet with him and he had to get one, plus Seth has over 1000 different super powers and was hand picked to kill The Authority so it's not the same as him fighting BP and Shadow Cat.
Terror's not quick enough to deal with Kitty, you're right, but to hit him Kitty would need to be solid, and Midnighter would know when she would attack and be ready. I'm not underestimating their strategical prowess or fighting ability, but it just isn't enough. BP would have to plan this strategy while Midnighter could just pick it up instantly, and neither of their fighting ability is near his level. Shadow Cat can't touch him (or phase him) for the same reason a normal enemy can't hit him. He knows what she's going to do if she's tangible or not, and like I've been saying, in the second she's solid to attack, he can kill her. To lay a hand (phased or not) on him, they'd have to be much faster than they are, and any time they tried, they'd be open to attack.
You don't have my vote.
I also don't beleive Midnighter and his escrima sticks pack the same wallop as Iron Man or Iron Fist. Skull crushing and all.
Midnighter needs to be able to punch this hard:T'Challa's Vibranium-weave uniform absorbs the kinetic force of impacts, rendering him bulletproof(that includes rounds of machinegun fire). Vibranium alloy pads which can vibrate at various frequencies, allowing him to run up the sides of buildings, land soundlessly and without injury from a height of 50 feet
if I were to jump head first from fifty feet up, to the ground or something of comporable density to Midnighter's fist would my skull shatter, probably. even with that much force BP's suit doesn't even whisper let alone register damage.
and what are Midnighter's sensory augmentations, besides battle brains?
Post Edited:2007-04-21 07:03:44
Sling Shot says:
"I also don't beleive Midnighter and his escrima sticks pack the same wallop as Iron Man or Iron Fist. Skull crushing and all.Midnighter needs to be able to punch this hard:T'Challa's Vibranium-weave uniform absorbs the kinetic force of impacts, rendering him bulletproof(that includes rounds of machinegun fire). His costume's gloves can generate energy daggers and house anti-metal claws that dissolve other metals on contact. His Kimoyo Card enables global communication, picks up satellite signals, and can block most radio transmissions. His boot soles are thick Vibranium alloy pads which can vibrate at various frequencies, allowing him to run up the sides of buildings, land soundlessly and without injury from a height of 50 feet, walk on water, or slice through metal. His costume is fitted with cloaking technology, allowing it to pass as normal street clothes. He also has access to the many specialized weapons and vehicles of Wakanda. The extent of technology T'Challa has access to is believed to be limitless."
Midnighter doesn't need to punch him to win. A quick yank of his head would snap his neck and end him. I do believe he has the strength though. He's punched through people who could fly through multiple buildings unharmed.
Post Edited:2007-04-21 07:02:52
Sling Shot says:
"I also don't beleive Midnighter and his escrima sticks pack the same wallop as Iron Man or Iron Fist. Skull crushing and all.Midnighter needs to be able to punch this hard:T'Challa's Vibranium-weave uniform absorbs the kinetic force of impacts, rendering him bulletproof(that includes rounds of machinegun fire). Vibranium alloy pads which can vibrate at various frequencies, allowing him to run up the sides of buildings, land soundlessly and without injury from a height of 50 feetif I were to jump head first from fifty feet up, to the ground or something of comporable density to Midnighter's fist would my skull shatter, probably. even with that much force BP's suit doesn't even whisper let alone register damage."
Vibranium weave in the uniform but Vibranium alloy pads in the shoes. The feet have more protection, allowing him the ability to survive those jumps. The rest of his suit doesn't have pads so I wouldn't say they were as strong. The highest mark they set it against was machine gun fire. Midnighter can punch harder than that. There's actually written proof that he can punch harder than bullets but he's been shown to do harder (though it wasn't written out like the bullet thing).
Midnighter kicks tank shells. He doesn't need pads.
Sling Shot says:
"and what are Midnighter's sensory augmentations, besides battle brains?
Post Edited:2007-04-21 07:03:44"
He can see things that make a person different from average humans, so battle upgrades, powers and such. He also has heightened senses but how heightened is never shown.
Post Edited:2007-04-22 03:25:18
I just wrote this great defense about the ambiguity of Midnighter's character and the inconsistancies of his prowess but he get kidnapped and has his backup heart replaced by a bomb and he gets his neck broke by Seth but not from his 2000 powers just good ol fashioned neck break. He didn't calculate the win there.
His ambiguity kinda works like a geneies lamp. He can win no problem except sometimes there is a problem and he doesn't win.
It's 4:18am and I'm not rewriting everything so bottomline. Let the vine vote who wins.
High and low showings for the purpose of plot are there for everyone. Going by the majority/average of his showings he'd be on the winning side in this fight.
He needed to get kidnapped because it was the only way for his solo series to work. He had to be kidnapped and under someone's control for that story. Keep in mind though that he found a way back through time and killed all those people and made them take the bomb out of his heart while he was wide awake, then killed the doctors. I'm pretty sure there was something hinky going on with the kidnapping in the first place but I don't have Midnighter #1 right here so I can't say for sure. As for Seth, (ignoring the possibility that maybe some of his undeclared powers played a factor) he survived his neck being broken and was the only member of The Authority (except for his daughter whom he saved) to escape. He was also the one that saved the rest of the team later so they could win.
I still believe my team won but as an aside with all these hyped ambiguous abilities the Midnighter may or may not display. I don't know if he falls within the point allotment.
This purely for future reference because the game has been played and the result is valid.
It seems that his capabilities almost make him a reality warper. which is at least tier5 worth 50 points. The ambiguity and
Inconsistency of this character are a large factor in his favor for being on a sliding scale of power.
One day he can out fight, manuever, hustle, power people that can fly through buildings and other days he gets kidnapped and has surgery performed on him or gets his neck snapped wrestling.
I don't know doesn't seem like you should be able to pick and chose if you win or lose but you win or lose based on the attributes you posses. And if those attributes aren't defined than who knows what you posses?
Post Edited:2007-04-21 16:54:28
Thing is, I'm not going by only high end feats, I'm going by what he does most often, and most of the time he's easily punching through super powered people and seeing a million ways battles could play out. I've already told you perfectly good reasons for why he lost in the two instances you're bringing up. The kidnapping was necessary for his miniseries. If he wasn't kidnapped and implanted with a bomb, there'd be no reason for the story to go on, and that arc would have ended at issue #1. It was necessitated by plot. The same was true for the fight with Seth. He needed lose (as did the rest of the group) in order for that arc to start. And you're saying he got his neck snapped wrestling as if Seth wasn't built to take down guys like Midnighter and The Authority.
But the necessity of the plot should line up with the capabilities of the character or else the character is depicted out of character. So if Midnighter's only losses are due to plot device and poor writing than i guess it is characteristic for him to be unbeatable. In which case he should be on a tier all his own and much like mastercard priceless.
But if the nature of a character is that they are unbeatable than there not much of a character and more a force of nature. And pitting him against anyone is a moot point. I am not convinced that is the case with Midnighter he is beatable as I just proved with BP and SC.
Post Edited:2007-04-21 19:40:03
Looking at Midnighter #1, where he was kidnapped, now. It wasn't like he was kidnapped off the street, he was kidnapped while he was using the Carrier's Door. The Door lets him traverse reality and dimensions like nothing, but there's no way to see in it, it's just glowing yellow all around. Midnighter didn't know the guys (6 guys) were in the Door with him (they had special suits made for moving around in the Door) so he had no input to run his battle computer. By the time he knew they were in there, they already had him. So basically they got the drop on a blind man. And before you say anything about other senses, there's no reason to think they work any better than sight, besides, there's no way he can sense them if they're not actually there until the moment they attack. They weren't all in an empty space when he as taken. The 6 guys got him by basically attacking from another dimension. They were never fully in the same space he was, so it's not like he can do anything to a hand that can appear from anywhere.
Looking at it with more information, these aren't low showings for his battle computer. In the first, by attacking him in a way that made it so there was no way to know enemies were even there, the battle computer couldn't predict anything since there was no one there until the second they attacked. They only came into existence (as far as Midnighter could tell) the very moment they attacked. And with Seth he was outmatched. Like I've said, just because he knows what's going to happen doesn't mean he can always stop it. Seth was much faster and much stronger than him (not even counting his other powers) and they started out not even a foot from each other. Seth kicked him (his speed prevented Midnighter from avoiding it) and then, faster than he could recover from the kick, Seth had him in his hands (his strength prevented Midnighter from escaping). I think it might have been a low showing for Midnighter's speed, but other than that, there wasn't anything wrong with it. So even when losing for the sake of plot, he's not out of character and he's not being ambiguous. His powers are consistent (as consistent as any other character at least), he just couldn't win in those situations. He can win in this fight.
Why is no one voting?
Post Edited:2007-04-22 02:34:34
Sling Shot and I picked characters and they have to fight. We've said how we thought it would happen, now you decide who you think would win.
What exactly don't you get? If you can tell us what you don't get, we can explain it so you can vote.
Post Edited:2007-04-22 15:17:51
You could check wikipedia for Terror Inc (the CV page isn't filled out) but basically, he's a guy who can take body parts from other people and add them to his own, giving him whatever power that part had along with information from the person he took it from. For example, stealing an eye from Cyclops would give him laser vision and the memories of everything the eye had seen, and stealing an arm from Wolverine would give him not only his arm, but all the fighting skills and knowledge from that arm. His body (all the acquired parts) doesn't heal (unless they have that power) but he can use them even if they're damaged, as long as they're still connected to him. He's also immortal and really smart. He's a detective/mercenary.
I like to think that I have a better point, not just that it sounds like I do.
"I get it. I dont know who Terror Inc. is, and reall, you write better then most people, so it always sounds like you've made a better point. So for this reason I will not vote."
I guess me better get gooder at writering things to make gambler believe me pointz.
I have extensive experience with the characters of my choosing overcoming odds and winning in diverse situations.Also the synergy of their abilities afforded for a strategy I believed, and still believe, would add to the list of their victories, of which they have plenty.
I guess that's what I was thinking.:)
Use your keyboard!
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