oh for gods sake the dwarves would just say 'why don't we just have a full on fist fight?' and the elves would think that the dwarves where being cockey. then the dwarves would just would just shoot their best fighter when he is weapon-less. then it would start with elf archers firing arrows at the dwarves , dwarves use there shields to block arrows then chuck AXE'S at the elven archers. plus gimli would just beat the hell out of legolass. then he would chop elven horses legs off then pile them on legolass just to add extra bad ass-ness. and if your thinking but the elves can stop the nazgul then you should be ashamed gloin told the nazgul to shove off and they ran all the way back to mordor. and if your thinking 'what about the good old elven archers' dwarves are actually better shots then elves. plus better bows and arrows. plus the elves where scared of ORCS attacking them. all in all dwarves would shot the hell out of the elves and chop there so called warroirs into bite-size bits of elven flesh. and for extra bad ass-ness they would chop off all of the elves ears off and chuck them into a massive pile. suck on that elf lovers, as for their cavalry well the dwarves would use there axes to chop there legs off. and all of there archers would be dead.
also glorfindel killed a blarog and not just any... gothmog lord of balrogs
LOL read the Silmarillion idiot. Ecthelion of the Fountain killed Gothmog... right after beating three lesser balrogs. and both died because Ecthelion could not use his arms anymore, and so drove his helmet-spike into Gothmog, and both toppled into the fountain.
Elves win in a close battle. No dwarven smith ever exceeded the Nolder in weaponry, although Telchar was on par. Dwarven smiths made slightly better armor, but considering the fact that elves were stronger, faster, and much more long-lived than dwarves, the elves come out on top. And no one has yet brought up the Vanyar or Teliri. They had their share of warriors too.
In the third age, close to moria, dwarves take this absolutely. If its the first age elves take it sure. But for those mentioning the elven heroes and what not, wow didnt realize they were all alive in the third age eh?
i agree with itzxsloth345 because all the heroes mentioned in the above comments are dead already. second of all there are more dwarves then there are elves. 7 kingdoms, Gundabad the Red and Gray mountains, Iron hills, Erebor, Moria and Thorin's hall. compared to Rivendel, Mirkwood and Lothlorian. yeah... dwarves outnumber elves. third i think that this should be be determined in three categories. 1. amount 2. technology 3. offensive or defensive, or both offensive and vice versa.
1. number(#) how many elves and how many dwarves?
in each elven kingdom you have around lets say, for craps and giggles, 50,000 people in each just to exaggerate. you see each of these places in lotro(explained later), they aren't that big. trust me.
in each dwarven kingdom you have about 75000 dwarves, i am going to say this because moria had the most in the movies and u saw that huge space, if you have played lord of the rings war in the north than you have seen gundabad, even though it been over run by orcs you see the huge mountain. you know from the hobbit the movie, that even though it is taken over by smaug, that it is also huge. you never see the iron hills range. (or at least i haven't) in any lotro movie or game. you see thorins hall in lord of the rings online(lotro) and it's probably the biggest by anyones standard, but we are exaggerating here so bare with me. you also never see the red and gray mountain range at all, but you have imaginations.
2. technology(ies) in both races to their fullest extent.
if the elves live as long as they do, you might still have celebrimbor, one of the three master elven craftsmen, (made the three rings of power for the elves). other than that you have better armor and weapons in terms of light and strong. but the dwarven armor and weapons are sturdier, but most of all the strongest.Mithril was a precious Silvery metal, very lightweight but capable of providing extreme strength in alloys, which was mined by the Dwarves in the deep mines of Khazad-dûm. and when gandalf explains to the company.
The wealth of Moria was not in gold or jewels, the toys of the Dwarves; nor in iron, their servant.... Its worth was ten times that of gold, and now it is beyond price; for little is left above ground, and even the Orcs dare not delve here for it."
"Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of Mithril did not tarnish or grow dim."
so the dwarves had better armor, and weapons. and seige weapons. the dwarves could use catapults, balista, and such. the elves didnt do that. they used bows... ooooh be scared. ha ha ha. no. that is use-less against mithril.
3. offensive or defensive? both.
i really think that the dwarves have better tactics than the elves. because im pretty sure that getting shields and stuff, bracing for the oncoming attack is better than standing there with a long-sword waiting to get tackled. and utilizing cover and the seige weapons is alot better. i say getting tackled because if you look at the way that they fought in the great battle. i mean look.
where is the proof? right here
so over all i think that the dwarves would have won, so just let me know if any of my info is correct or not plz. thx.
Hey Your Making it Unfair Why is it elves dont have magic Elves use magic and also no animals elves use animals in the battlefield when in need ,Why you gotta be so rude at Legolas He was aint half bad you know and his way faster than Gimili and for your information Galadriel and Celeborn are still alive that means Power for Elves ,Does this Look Manly enough for you(Sorry i jUST had to defend them)
@ancientsupersaiyan: Elrond was one of the most powerful beings in middle earth Gimli wouldn't stand a chance against him. The elves would triumph against the dwarves in most cases plus the says middle earth and the undying lands were there to. Therefore it has to include all the elven kingdoms which are there. The Dwarves while being skilled warriors would falter in the face of such power. Magic or no magic the elves would come out on top and the Noldor were experts at crafting to heck Thorin oakenshield used an Elven blade of Gondolin.
i agree with itzxsloth345 because all the heroes mentioned in the above comments are dead already. second of all there are more dwarves then there are elves. 7 kingdoms, Gundabad the Red and Gray mountains, Iron hills, Erebor, Moria and Thorin's hall. compared to Rivendel, Mirkwood and Lothlorian. yeah... dwarves outnumber elves. third i think that this should be be determined in three categories. 1. amount 2. technology 3. offensive or defensive, or both offensive and vice versa.
1. number(#) how many elves and how many dwarves?
in each elven kingdom you have around lets say, for craps and giggles, 50,000 people in each just to exaggerate. you see each of these places in lotro(explained later), they aren't that big. trust me.
in each dwarven kingdom you have about 75000 dwarves, i am going to say this because moria had the most in the movies and u saw that huge space, if you have played lord of the rings war in the north than you have seen gundabad, even though it been over run by orcs you see the huge mountain. you know from the hobbit the movie, that even though it is taken over by smaug, that it is also huge. you never see the iron hills range. (or at least i haven't) in any lotro movie or game. you see thorins hall in lord of the rings online(lotro) and it's probably the biggest by anyones standard, but we are exaggerating here so bare with me. you also never see the red and gray mountain range at all, but you have imaginations.
2. technology(ies) in both races to their fullest extent.
if the elves live as long as they do, you might still have celebrimbor, one of the three master elven craftsmen, (made the three rings of power for the elves). other than that you have better armor and weapons in terms of light and strong. but the dwarven armor and weapons are sturdier, but most of all the strongest.Mithril was a precious Silvery metal, very lightweight but capable of providing extreme strength in alloys, which was mined by the Dwarves in the deep mines of Khazad-dûm. and when gandalf explains to the company.
The wealth of Moria was not in gold or jewels, the toys of the Dwarves; nor in iron, their servant.... Its worth was ten times that of gold, and now it is beyond price; for little is left above ground, and even the Orcs dare not delve here for it."
"Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of Mithril did not tarnish or grow dim."
so the dwarves had better armor, and weapons. and seige weapons. the dwarves could use catapults, balista, and such. the elves didnt do that. they used bows... ooooh be scared. ha ha ha. no. that is use-less against mithril.
3. offensive or defensive? both.
i really think that the dwarves have better tactics than the elves. because im pretty sure that getting shields and stuff, bracing for the oncoming attack is better than standing there with a long-sword waiting to get tackled. and utilizing cover and the seige weapons is alot better. i say getting tackled because if you look at the way that they fought in the great battle. i mean look.
where is the proof? right here
so over all i think that the dwarves would have won, so just let me know if any of my info is correct or not plz. thx.
Actually surprising to see such a well thought out explanation and their is alot of validity to your premise but you forget a crucial factor when it comes to tactics. There were elves still alive which had been since Sauron was a wolf pup. I.e Elrond, Glorfindel, Finarfin among others. We had all the elves still alive in Valinor which is classed apart of Middle earth. Glorfindel Died in the first age killing a balrog and came back in the second age from there. Now we could not include the elves from Valinor thats perfectly valid but the elves are perfectly able to travel back and forth so not including them is daft. And these elves fought in the wars of wrath the first wars against morgoth. Elves are obviously going to have a lot more tactical experience given they are immortal. It would be a miracle if the dwarves were to win any war with the elves really. Even the Vanyar who weren't known as fighters. The Noldor would of slaughtered the Dwarves if it came to it. Heck when the elves first discovered the dwarves they hunted them.
Well Dwarves ofcourse they have better armour, weapons, siege-engines, heavier troops ect. Also they are more durable, can endure more damage and pain, are stronger and more ferocious. Plus they have epic awesome beards and drink beer xD. And when u think they outnumber the elves about 3 to 1 so. Dwarves also have crossbows,catapults, scorpions and ballistas so they wont be losing in long range either.
The main strongholds of the dwarves that are mentioned are the Iron Hills and Erebor.
Erebor was repopulated after the Battle of the Five Armies by <500 dwarves. Of course, they would have had immigrants from other dwarf colonies, but at best their population reaches 7,000 by the end of the third age, only 80 years later. Remember, not all of those dwarves are soldiers so we should cut that number down to 2,500. As for the Iron Hills, we have to consider that Dain only mustered 500 dwarves to reinforce the Company. Taking into account that his entire army is larger than that, we can put the Iron Hills' numbers at 3,000 or less. Other minor dwarf colonies could very well exist, so the total dwarf armies factors in at around 7,000. On the other hand, the sylvan elves were able to muster 1,500+ elves for the Battle of the Five Armies. Using the same multiplier we used for the Iron Hills, Mirkwood elf soldiers number over 10,000. So not even counting Lothlorien, Rivendell, or Lindon, the elves significantly outnumber the dwarves.
The battle is even more unbalanced if it includes the elves at the beginning of the third age, who could field armies of 50,000 or more
Dwarves or stalemate. No way elves are able to take dwarven tunnels should they ever get the upper hand in a land war. Elven forests would burn just fine and dandy though should the dwarves ever get the upper hand, and dwarven siege tech/tactics is without peer.
The Elves should win this. They are individually more physically capable and essentially more skilled than the Dwarves, they have more versatility within their armies, with archers, swordsmen and those guys with the long bladed sword-y spear type things (dunno what they're called) all proving themselves to be equally deadly. The Dwarves simply can't match what the Elves can do because of their physicality, they're not as fast or as agile and don't outclass the Elves in strength or durability either. They didn't seem to have hugely diverse tactics, standing together, shields linked, in a sort of tortoise-shell-formation-esque way and charging as a big ol' mass of heavily armoured shorties. Their armour and weapons are all very bulky, made for tanking a lot of hits and dealing out slow but heavy hits in turn, while the Elves armour protects them seemingly just as well and their weapons are made for precise, lethal strikes. I'm going with the Elves here.
This is all based on the films, though. I know some stuff about the Middle Earth-verse, but not everything.
"Fight takes place at Khazad-dum, outside East Gate of Moria"
That's the location that the fight in the picture takes place, btw. Moria is just the elves name for Khazad-dum, so its basically taking place outside the gates of a huge dwarven fortress/city/thing
It's untrue that dwarves make better weapons than the Noldor, their swords are the most respected ones, even Thorin starts using one of them instead of his own. The Dwarves do better armor but not with that superiority.
Noldor elves are physically one of the strongest races ever, only maybe equaled by Numenoreans. The dwarves aren't that strong as you are given than credit, their thing is that they have a hard skin that makes them tough.
Elves are tireless, ambidextrous, much much faster, better senses... Experience counts a lot also.
So if the battle is in the woods or in the open the dwarves will get crushed by range attacks and cavalry(something the dwarves definitely doesn't have).
Them if we count the number and the power of each heroes this comes down even more to the elves: Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon, Maedhros, Feanor, Finrod, Galadriel, Erlond, Gil-Galad, Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Beleg, Legolas, Elohir and Elladan, Thranduil
This. The dwarves put in a much better showing in the Hobbit movies though. Gimli in LOTR movies was lackluster and slow as molasses.
@pipxeroth: i know, just jokin around ;) However how does fingolfin fare against a gangup with Gimli, lord Dain, Thorin and Dwalin??
Just wondering.
Anyway without heroic characters the Dwarves take this battle rather easily.
Against someone like Fingolfin I really doubt the dwarven heroes stand a chance. That said, Dain is an absolute powerhouse. But if elves fielded Fingolfin, Glorfindel, Gil-Gilad etc. the Dwarves would die. Thankfully, dwarves stomp because elven troops suck :D
@pipxeroth: so you do agree with me about this battle being a stomp for the Dwarves when heroics are excluded?
And just curious werent the elves so powerful because of the mayar and valar gave them a power boost and a magical boost?? Meanin that they were not so powerful on their own? :)
@pipxeroth: so you do agree with me about this battle being a stomp for the Dwarves when heroics are excluded?
And just curious werent the elves so powerful because of the mayar and valar gave them a power boost and a magical boost?? Meanin that they were not so powerful on their own? :)
Oh yeah, in equal numbers dwarves would win because they pretty much hardcounter elves. Elven horsemen < Dwarven pike formations. Elven archers < Dwarven armour and shields. And in third age dwarves outnumber elves regardless. And the battle takes place outside Khazad-Dum, so dwarves have a terrain advantage.
First age elves (high elves) were godlike because they were directly created by Eru/LOTR God. Dwarves were created later by a valar, and were given the 'gift of mortality'. Second age and third age elves were far weaker as Eru's influence on them wained.
@echostarlord117: in the 3rd age they are not. I mean Dwarves armor and weapons are far superior when compared to either men or elves. And Dwarves have more powerhouses in the 3rd age than elves.
elves would take this, immortal, duh. they have great leaders such as Thranduil and Elrond. Also Galadriels magic, in the botfa she easily tore an orc apart with the swish of her hand.
Dwarves have war-machines, better armor and weapons. Also they are greater in number. 3rd age galadriel nor Elrond can take out so many Dwarves whom are BTW resistant to magic. Also likes of Dain, Gimli, Thorin, Dwalin, Gloin etc. Will decimate elven units
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