@Andy Steven Summers said:
@Static Shock said:
While Drizzt is armed with magical weapons, Entreri was able to stalemate him, regardless. .
Artemis is also armed with magical weapons.
More than weapons. He even has enchanted armor. I also don't get how a few in here are trying to downplay Entreri who is practically superhuman going by feats.
@Andy Steven Summers:
Wulfgar is also written as being 10 levels lower than Drizzt in D&D lore. I mean, Ogres are far stronger than Drizzt also right? Yet, for the most part, are still considered fodder by and large. It's strength, coupled with skill that will make the difference. Wulfgar is no where near as skilled as Conan. (Again, pending on which Conan we're pulling from here.)
Purely DH Conan, and I've already ceded to Drizzt probably taking a majority. Maybe. But if this is Conan at his prime, highly, highly doubtful.
@TheSwordsman said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
Drizzt is far too fast for Conan. He's literally said to move so fast he looks like a blur. Enchanted swords, and bracelets, as well as globes of darkness make this overkill imho.
No. Drizzt has a hard enough time with Artemis Entreri who is a regular human, highly skilled, but not thusly enchanted. The books are not D&D. His written feats are not more impressive than many things Conan has accomplished IMO.
To be fair Entreri has a +5 defender dagger of vampiric regeneration though which helps a lot in combat. Not to mention Artemis is one of the best fighters in all the realms.
That's just my point. So is Conan. Point was Drizzt is not so superhumanly fast that mere humans could not keep up with him if adequately skilled. I cannot think of a swordsman who's beaten him (barring plot and barring Conan taking his revenge in style, force and verve).
@Kinasin_ said:
@Andy Steven Summers said:
@Static Shock said:
While Drizzt is armed with magical weapons, Entreri was able to stalemate him, regardless. .
Artemis is also armed with magical weapons.
More than weapons. He even has enchanted armor. I also don't get how a few in here are trying to downplay Entreri who is practically superhuman going by feats.
So is Conan... going by feats. Though I'm interested to learn which of Entreri's feats would have him as superhuman? And while Obould was indeed powerful, armed with a powerful sword, he was no where near Conan's (or Drizzt's) skill level. He relied on amped stats and weaponry to even the playing field. While more powerful, let's not pretend we was anywhere near as skilled as Conan with a blade.
Hell, don't even get me started on Charon's Claw. If Artemis nicks you with it your dead. Charon can also swallow your soul if you can't beat it in a battle of wills and leaves ash trails that Artemis uses to blind his opponent. Artemis also absorbed a shade into his body giving him some shade characteristic's.
This is a tough Fight. They are both very accomplished fighters. I dont know anything about DH conan but I have read most of the original Conan novels. Drizzt's magic is pretty meaningless against Conan here. Rangers don't have very powerful magic and neither does Drizzt. Conan has faced powerful magicians as well as demons before so Drizzt's magic wont be of much use. Conan is stronger and probably the more skilled combatant. Drizz'ts magical items give him an advantage but Conan is skilled enough to overcome that I think. He's fought worse then Drizzt and come out on top. I mean crap he killed the king of the Frost Giants. It wont be an easy fight fo Conan tho. Drizzt will give it good and Conan will come out badly injured but the winner.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
@Andy Steven Summers said:
@Static Shock said:
While Drizzt is armed with magical weapons, Entreri was able to stalemate him, regardless. .
Artemis is also armed with magical weapons.
More than weapons. He even has enchanted armor. I also don't get how a few in here are trying to downplay Entreri who is practically superhuman going by feats.
So is Conan... going by feats. Though I'm interested to learn which of Entreri's feats would have him as superhuman? And while Obould was indeed powerful, armed with a powerful sword, he was no where near Conan's (or Drizzt's) skill level. He relied on amped stats and weaponry to even the playing field. While more powerful, let's not pretend we was anywhere near as skilled as Conan with a blade.
He doesn't need to be more skilled than conan with a blade when outclasses him in stats by a mile. He would lop conan's head off with ease. Show conan tossing frost giant's with brute strength, and get back to me. As far as Artemis being practically superhuman; he's literally held his own with drizzt as well as going toe to toe with shades and surviving. He's known as one of the top level fighters in the forgotten realms. Tangles with Jaraxle and all kinds of baddies that peak human fighters shouldn't be able to react to.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@TheSwordsman said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
Drizzt is far too fast for Conan. He's literally said to move so fast he looks like a blur. Enchanted swords, and bracelets, as well as globes of darkness make this overkill imho.
No. Drizzt has a hard enough time with Artemis Entreri who is a regular human, highly skilled, but not thusly enchanted. The books are not D&D. His written feats are not more impressive than many things Conan has accomplished IMO.
To be fair Entreri has a +5 defender dagger of vampiric regeneration though which helps a lot in combat. Not to mention Artemis is one of the best fighters in all the realms.
That's just my point. So is Conan. Point was Drizzt is not so superhumanly fast that mere humans could not keep up with him if adequately skilled. I cannot think of a swordsman who's beaten him (barring plot and barring Conan taking his revenge in style, force and verve).
My point was that Entreri had a very powerful magical defending dagger which made it much harder for Drizzt to defeat him. Conan has never fought anyone with magical chain mail or 2 magical swords who was likely his equal or close to it in swordsmanship/combat though.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
Don't believe everything you hear about Drizzt at extreme face value till you've read the books IMO.
Maybe I just read into this wrong. I take this as you wanting the books to take precedence. Which I fully agree with.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Andy Steven Summers:
Wulfgar is also written as being 10 levels lower than Drizzt in D&D lore.
Now here you are wanting to go off of D&D lore/statistics.
Salvatore has never written any of his novels with the rules for D&D in mind. Personally I would rather avoid the whole D&D statistics and write ups as they do not matter in any sort of way. For one they are constantly changed because of the newer editions of D&D that come out. But most importantly Mr Salvatore himself has never written or given the statistics for his characters in game terms. The only time Salvatore had any input on one of his characters statistics done by Wizards of the Coast, was Drizzt back in 2nd edition. Where his character broke the dual class rules and also had an back-stab type ability which no one else could get.
@Kinasin_ said:
Hell, don't even get me started on Charon's Claw. If Artemis nicks you with it your dead. Charon can also swallow your soul if you can't beat it in a battle of wills and leaves ash trails that Artemis uses to blind his opponent. Artemis also absorbed a shade into his body giving him some shade characteristic's.
Charon's Claw requires time to be effective. He has to maintain contact over a few seconds in order to have Conan, Drizzt or any opponent engage in a 'battle of wills' versus death via disintegration. I don't think Drizzt or Conan's going to file his nails whilst waiting for this to occur. Artemis likewise has to hit you with the blade (even a nick will do, I realize) in order to poison its victim. But this is an effect over time. Time enough to see him fall. Additionally, in D&D rules, a dagger of lifestealing ain't really the bomb either. In the books, if Artemis drives the dagger home, losing 3-6 hit points and having them transferred to Entreri would be the least of Drizzt's worries.
I think people are really geeking out with all this "Dagger of Lifestealing +5!! Therefore, Conan doesn't stand a chance!" business personally.
I think we can all safely rely on the first blow telling the tale of this battle rather than weaponry used. I'd be more worried about getting nailed with a hand and a half bastard sword then nicked with said dagger or blade as death would be instantaneous.
@Kinasin_ said:
Hell, don't even get me started on Charon's Claw. If Artemis nicks you with it your dead. Charon can also swallow your soul if you can't beat it in a battle of wills and leaves ash trails that Artemis uses to blind his opponent. Artemis also absorbed a shade into his body giving him some shade characteristic's.
True, but Entreri didn't wield Charons Claw in most, if any, of his fights with drizzt (He may have used it in their last fight but I can't remember, it's been a while since i have read it) so i didn't mention it. Also the wielder has to will the dis ntegration and touch the victim with the sword for several seconds , not just a nick. It also disintegrates those wielders whom its will ego overcomes. :D
Excalibur FTW though..+5 sword lawful good Sword Of Sharpness. Oh yeah!
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
Hell, don't even get me started on Charon's Claw. If Artemis nicks you with it your dead. Charon can also swallow your soul if you can't beat it in a battle of wills and leaves ash trails that Artemis uses to blind his opponent. Artemis also absorbed a shade into his body giving him some shade characteristic's.
Charon's Claw requires time to be effective. He has to maintain contact over a few seconds in order to have Conan, Drizzt or any opponent engage in a 'battle of wills' versus death via disintegration. I don't think Drizzt or Conan's going to file his nails whilst waiting for this to occur. Artemis likewise has to hit you with the blade (even a nick will do, I realize) in order to poison its victim. But this is an effect over time. Time enough to see him fall. Additionally, in D&D rules, a dagger of lifestealing ain't really the bomb either. In the books, if Artemis drives the dagger home, losing 3-6 hit points and having them transferred to Entreri would be the least of Drizzt's worries.
I think people are really geeking out with all this "Dagger of Lifestealing +5!! Therefore, Conan doesn't stand a chance!" business personally.
I think we can all safely rely on the first blow telling the tale of this battle rather than weaponry used. I'd be more worried about getting nailed with a hand and a half bastard sword then nicked with said dagger or blade as death would be instantaneous.
You can't just disregard it. Artemis is smart enough to know if he was being outclassed in swordsplay which honestly I don't even think conan is a better swordsman than enteri. Enteri would nick him and then that's gameover. Enteri could vanish and watch him like a komodo dragon and when he is at his weakest go in for the easy kill.
@TheSwordsman: No Drizzt has not faced Artemis while he had Charon's Claw.
@Kinasin_ said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
@Andy Steven Summers said:
@Static Shock said:
While Drizzt is armed with magical weapons, Entreri was able to stalemate him, regardless. .
Artemis is also armed with magical weapons.
More than weapons. He even has enchanted armor. I also don't get how a few in here are trying to downplay Entreri who is practically superhuman going by feats.
So is Conan... going by feats. Though I'm interested to learn which of Entreri's feats would have him as superhuman? And while Obould was indeed powerful, armed with a powerful sword, he was no where near Conan's (or Drizzt's) skill level. He relied on amped stats and weaponry to even the playing field. While more powerful, let's not pretend we was anywhere near as skilled as Conan with a blade.
He doesn't need to be more skilled than conan with a blade when outclasses him in stats by a mile. He would lop conan's head off with ease. Show conan tossing frost giant's with brute strength, and get back to me. As far as Artemis being practically superhuman; he's literally held his own with drizzt as well as going toe to toe with shades and surviving. He's known as one of the top level fighters in the forgotten realms. Tangles with Jaraxle and all kinds of baddies that peak human fighters shouldn't be able to react to.
Yes, he does need more skill than Conan to beat Conan. Despite stats. Strength alone does not win a sword fight. Obould was enhanced and given powerful armaments ... without which he was easily routed by Bruenor in the past.
Tossing Frost Giants is completely irrelevant. Drizzt cannot toss Frost Giants either. So ya, skill. It matters.
And those 'feats' you enumerate for Artemis make him skilled, not superhuman.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
@Andy Steven Summers said:
@Static Shock said:
While Drizzt is armed with magical weapons, Entreri was able to stalemate him, regardless. .
Artemis is also armed with magical weapons.
More than weapons. He even has enchanted armor. I also don't get how a few in here are trying to downplay Entreri who is practically superhuman going by feats.
So is Conan... going by feats. Though I'm interested to learn which of Entreri's feats would have him as superhuman? And while Obould was indeed powerful, armed with a powerful sword, he was no where near Conan's (or Drizzt's) skill level. He relied on amped stats and weaponry to even the playing field. While more powerful, let's not pretend we was anywhere near as skilled as Conan with a blade.
He doesn't need to be more skilled than conan with a blade when outclasses him in stats by a mile. He would lop conan's head off with ease. Show conan tossing frost giant's with brute strength, and get back to me. As far as Artemis being practically superhuman; he's literally held his own with drizzt as well as going toe to toe with shades and surviving. He's known as one of the top level fighters in the forgotten realms. Tangles with Jaraxle and all kinds of baddies that peak human fighters shouldn't be able to react to.
Yes, he does need more skill than Conan to beat Conan. Despite stats. Strength alone does not win a sword fight. Obould was enhanced and given powerful armaments ... without which he was easily routed by Bruenor in the past.
Tossing Frost Giants is completely irrelevant. Drizzt cannot toss Frost Giants either. So ya, skill. It matters.
And those 'feats' you enumerate for Artemis make him skilled, not superhuman.
No, he doesn't, as proven with his battle with Drizzt who is far more skilled than him; yet Obould still took a slight edge on him.
I'd put them close to equal in terms of skill. I'd give Conan an edge in raw physical prowess, and Drizzt a slight edge in intelligence. Drizzt has a definite equipment bonus, with his magical swords and all, but Conan has never bothered much with equipment (in many of his stories, he has considerably less equipment than he's pictured with, here). It's close, but I'm going to give the edge to Conan, mostly because I'm a REH fanboy. :P
@Andy Steven Summers said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
Don't believe everything you hear about Drizzt at extreme face value till you've read the books IMO.
Maybe I just read into this wrong. I take this as you wanting the books to take precedence. Which I fully agree with.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Andy Steven Summers:
Wulfgar is also written as being 10 levels lower than Drizzt in D&D lore.
Now here you are wanting to go off of D&D lore/statistics.
Salvatore has never written any of his novels with the rules for D&D in mind. Personally I would rather avoid the whole D&D statistics and write ups as they do not matter in any sort of way. For one they are constantly changed because of the newer editions of D&D that come out. But most importantly Mr Salvatore himself has never written or given the statistics for his characters in game terms. The only time Salvatore had any input on one of his characters statistics done by Wizards of the Coast, was Drizzt back in 2nd edition. Where his character broke the dual class rules and also had an back-stab type ability which no one else could get.
I don't really. I was just trying to speak their language. Everyone is throwing out +5 this and that and the other thing which is a little unfair. Let's indeed stick with feats. The level gap was to drive home the point that the skill advantage Drizzt has over Wulfgar in both the books (I mean, he trained him!) and roleplaying game is substantial. So him able to school Wulfgar, another 'strongman', does not automatically mean he can thereby beat Conan. Terrible ABC logic.
Conan's skill gap over Wulfgar is likewise substantial. If we go off D&D stats, it would depend which storyline involving Conan we want to run with as he is billed as maxing at lv. 25 in D&D 3.5 rule set. So using the top version of both characters with D&D in mind, Conan stomps.
@Andy Steven Summers said:
@TheSwordsman: No Drizzt has not faced Artemis while he had Charon's Claw.
I figured this to be the case, as this is how i remembered it.
I haven't read anything Conan in a long time and even at that it was just a few stories. From my impression though Drizzt should win.
I read all of the original DDP Forgotten Realms comics and Drizzt is one of my favorite characters. He is a beast and with all of his abilities and skills I don't think Conan can hang.
@Kinasin_ said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
@Andy Steven Summers said:
@Static Shock said:
While Drizzt is armed with magical weapons, Entreri was able to stalemate him, regardless. .
Artemis is also armed with magical weapons.
More than weapons. He even has enchanted armor. I also don't get how a few in here are trying to downplay Entreri who is practically superhuman going by feats.
So is Conan... going by feats. Though I'm interested to learn which of Entreri's feats would have him as superhuman? And while Obould was indeed powerful, armed with a powerful sword, he was no where near Conan's (or Drizzt's) skill level. He relied on amped stats and weaponry to even the playing field. While more powerful, let's not pretend we was anywhere near as skilled as Conan with a blade.
He doesn't need to be more skilled than conan with a blade when outclasses him in stats by a mile. He would lop conan's head off with ease. Show conan tossing frost giant's with brute strength, and get back to me. As far as Artemis being practically superhuman; he's literally held his own with drizzt as well as going toe to toe with shades and surviving. He's known as one of the top level fighters in the forgotten realms. Tangles with Jaraxle and all kinds of baddies that peak human fighters shouldn't be able to react to.
Yes, he does need more skill than Conan to beat Conan. Despite stats. Strength alone does not win a sword fight. Obould was enhanced and given powerful armaments ... without which he was easily routed by Bruenor in the past.
Tossing Frost Giants is completely irrelevant. Drizzt cannot toss Frost Giants either. So ya, skill. It matters.
And those 'feats' you enumerate for Artemis make him skilled, not superhuman.
No, he doesn't as proven with his battle with Drizzt who is far more skilled than him, and yet Obould still took a slight edge on him.
Listen, I know via other threads that you are a Drizzt fan. So I'm not going to push the issue too far with you as I know it will lead no where save frustration for us both.
But how does Drizzt surviving that encounter equal him beating Conan? Obould is reinforced via enhanced stats and weaponry making him a tower of destruction, with all but impregnable armor, but still no where near as skilled as either Conan or Drizzt. This is terrible ABC logic and there is no real comparison to be made.
Obould did not hold off Drizzt based solely on skill. Conan could and would. Plus, I'm convinced Conan's physical stats (in his prime) are substantially better than Drizzt's save dexterity where he his arguably slightly less so.
I respect your opinion on the matter ... but feel I'm coming from a position of one whose read both characters fairly religiously at one point in my life whereas I'm unsure if you've ever really delved into the world of Conan. If not, I highly recommend the Savage Sword of Conan (his earlier magazine formatted material) if ever you've a mind to hit up some fun Conan reading.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
I don't really.
Sounds good to me. I'll refrain from throwing out statistics. My personal view is that if the author/creator of that character doesn't have a say in how they are written up. Then it should be ignored, this includes what Wizards of the Coast claim his equipment to be. Because based off of the books they are both far more powerful than the simple write ups they have been given.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
So him able to school Wulfgar, another 'strongman', does not automatically mean he can thereby beat Conan. Terrible ABC logic.
My point was to show that Drizzt has faced off against opponents who are vastly stronger than him. The ABC logic here is not that he beat one strong man he can beat another. I even stated that Wulfgar is not as skilled as Conan. However facing off against a strong opponent is not foreign to Drizzt. He does this routinely, it be against Wulfgar, Hill giants Frost giants, Trolls, Ogres, and even King Obould (Who is stronger than anyone listed. and not a slouch skill wise. Though still not on the level of Drizzt or Conan).
@Super_SoldierXII said:
If we go off D&D stats, it would depend which storyline involving Conan we want to run with as he is billed as maxing at lv. 25 in D&D 3.5 rule set. So using the top version of both characters with D&D in mind, Conan stomps.
Earlier you just said that you would prefer not to use D&D stats yet here we are again with your closing argument. Since you brought this up I will comment back. If you would like to drop the statistics talk and just stick to feats I am game for when you are. First and foremost as I have pointed out the creator of Drizzt and his companions had no say in his 3.5 statistics. In fact there was even a revision of Drizzt's stats from their official campaign guide which improved him just a little, and bumped Guen's stats a lot. Not only were his stats horribly done, but they did not even include his full equipment list. The bracers of blinding strike were in the write up, nor was the spider-silk shirt. Something that even as of 4 edition has not been given stats.
-----------------------
But let's move on.
Skill: I would say that they should be close to evenly matched that neither holds a distinct advantage here. Draw
Strength: Conan holds the advantage here without a doubt. Conan
Speed: This Drizzt would take, and with the bracers by a good margin. Drizzt
Agility/Reflexes: One more category that belongs to the dark Elf. Drizzt
Intelligence: Drizzt should hold the advantage here, but I do not see it as a huge factor. Draw
Equipment: Drizzt stomps this in spades. Giving him a significant advantage. Drizzt
Terrain: For some time this was Drizzt's backyard, giving him the home field advantage. It could come into play seeing how dangerous of a terrain it is.
Overall verdict the only thing that Conan has over Drizzt is physical strength. I see no way that he wins this.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
@Super_SoldierXII said:
@Kinasin_ said:
@Andy Steven Summers said:
@Static Shock said:
While Drizzt is armed with magical weapons, Entreri was able to stalemate him, regardless. .
Artemis is also armed with magical weapons.
More than weapons. He even has enchanted armor. I also don't get how a few in here are trying to downplay Entreri who is practically superhuman going by feats.
So is Conan... going by feats. Though I'm interested to learn which of Entreri's feats would have him as superhuman? And while Obould was indeed powerful, armed with a powerful sword, he was no where near Conan's (or Drizzt's) skill level. He relied on amped stats and weaponry to even the playing field. While more powerful, let's not pretend we was anywhere near as skilled as Conan with a blade.
He doesn't need to be more skilled than conan with a blade when outclasses him in stats by a mile. He would lop conan's head off with ease. Show conan tossing frost giant's with brute strength, and get back to me. As far as Artemis being practically superhuman; he's literally held his own with drizzt as well as going toe to toe with shades and surviving. He's known as one of the top level fighters in the forgotten realms. Tangles with Jaraxle and all kinds of baddies that peak human fighters shouldn't be able to react to.
Yes, he does need more skill than Conan to beat Conan. Despite stats. Strength alone does not win a sword fight. Obould was enhanced and given powerful armaments ... without which he was easily routed by Bruenor in the past.
Tossing Frost Giants is completely irrelevant. Drizzt cannot toss Frost Giants either. So ya, skill. It matters.
And those 'feats' you enumerate for Artemis make him skilled, not superhuman.
No, he doesn't as proven with his battle with Drizzt who is far more skilled than him, and yet Obould still took a slight edge on him.
Listen, I know via other threads that you are a Drizzt fan. So I'm not going to push the issue too far with you as I know it will lead no where save frustration for us both.
But how does Drizzt surviving that encounter equal him beating Conan? Obould is reinforced via enhanced stats and weaponry making him a tower of destruction, with all but impregnable armor, but still no where near as skilled as either Conan or Drizzt. This is terrible ABC logic and there is no real comparison to be made.
Obould did not hold off Drizzt based solely on skill. Conan could and would. Plus, I'm convinced Conan's physical stats (in his prime) are substantially better than Drizzt's save dexterity where he his arguably slightly less so.
I respect your opinion on the matter ... but feel I'm coming from a position of one whose read both characters fairly religiously at one point in my life whereas I'm unsure if you've ever really delved into the world of Conan. If not, I highly recommend the Savage Sword of Conan (his earlier magazine formatted material) if ever you've a mind to hit up some fun Conan reading.
I've read most the dark horse conan series and he didn't really impress me. Conan always comes off like a tank like wulfgar although more skilled, and considering Drizzt could hang with a Gruumsh blessed, enchanted geared Obould, I don't really see how Conan is gonna beat him. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree for now. Also thanks for recommending me some good Conan reading material, I'll make sure to check it out.
@Lunacyde said:
@Andy Steven Summers: Similar to my thoughts. I think the gear really tips it in Drizzt's favor. He already closely matches Conan's skill and the gear gives him the advantage he needs to win.
This is where I respectfully disagree with you both. Gear, outside of the D&D world of stats and numbers, come in a far distant second to skill and attributes. Both of which Conan has over Drizzt with, as aforementioned, the slight exception of dexterity due to the bracers more than anything else.
To prove me wrong, please name a combat speed feat that Conan himself has not accomplished ...
@Super_SoldierXII said:
Gear, outside of the D&D world of stats and numbers, come in a far distant second to skill and attributes. Both of which Conan has over Drizzt with, as aforementioned, the slight exception of dexterity due to the bracers more than anything else.
Skill and attributes.
So you're telling me that Conan is far more skilled than Drizzt? What proof/evidence do you have of this? I know both characters quite well (Drizzt more so) and if I had to give either of them an advantage in the skill department it would be Drizzt, without question.
Like I mentioned in my earlier post the only physical advantage Conan has over Drizzt is strength. How you see Conan having attributes far more than Dirzzti s beyond me in anything but strength. So I would yet again ask for evidence to prove what you are saying.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
To prove me wrong, please name a combat speed feat that Conan himself has not accomplished ...
See how this works? If you are going to ask for feats, evidence, proof. Then you should first provide some for yourself and your own case.
Couple small time feats. Drizzt has slashed arrows with his swords out of midair. He has been stated to move at a blur. It's been stated several time he has unsheathed both his scimitars so fast that it appeared as if they were always in his hands. While traveling through forest terrain he has been able to keep pace with Guen. Early on his in career his father put him to the test to show he was of 'two hands'. Catching numerous silver coins tossed into the air.
@Super_SoldierXII: The burden of proof is on you, as you seem to be the minority here.
@80sBaby said:
Drizzt wins but it's not easy at all. As for Entreri, Drizzt held back a lot when they fought. The one time he went into Hunter-mode, IIRC, it was over pretty quickly.
Drizzt did not 'hold back'. And his 'hunter' mode was only reactivated when Drizzt thought Bruenor killed. The hunter was necessarily kept in check, as Drizzt was at great risk of losing control and hurting friends when left unchecked. So the fact Drizzt didn't fly into hunter mode is not indicative of him 'holding back' per se.
@Super_SoldierXII: Their 'final' encounter Dirzzt was holding back. The fight in which they were inside of the Crystal Shard.
@Andy Steven Summers said:
So you're telling me that Conan is far more skilled than Drizzt?
When did I state Conan was 'far' more skilled than Drizzt? Please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks. Conan, at his peak, is more skilled than Drizzt in my opinion, yes. But not far more skilled ... I never said that.
See how this works? If you are going to ask for feats, evidence, proof. Then you should first provide some for yourself and your own case.
I don't see why. You're the one stating Drizzt has the better reflexes of the two and insisting we base this contest off feats. I merely asked you to share feats that would have me take you at your word other than just proffering your opinion on the matter as though that settles it.
Drizzt has slashed arrows with his swords out of midair. He has been stated to move at a blur. It's been stated several time he has unsheathed both his scimitars so fast that it appeared as if they were always in his hands. While traveling through forest terrain he has been able to keep pace with Guen. Early on his in career his father put him to the test to show he was of 'two hands'. Catching numerous silver coins tossed into the air.
Again, I asked for something Conan has not done himself. You realize Conan was a master of the quick draw as well? Trained by eastern sword masters? He has also moved as though 'in a blur' and has both dodged and deflected arrows as a matter of course. He was also a thief, and a very capable one at that. His hands have likewise been touted as moving faster than the eye can follow. Doubt he'd beat one in a race, but he has chased and wrestled down a lion. And insofar as Guen is concerned ... they never 'raced' so Drizzt keeping stride over time is more a matter of endurance than running speed. Guen would often scout ahead and it's highly unlikely he's going to leave Drizzt behind by running top speed without respite.
The burden of proof is on you, as you seem to be the minority here.
No. The burden of proof is on whoever wants to make comments as though they're fact. Everyone is so astounded with Drizzt's 'blinding' speed when I've not seen him evidence dexterity outside of Conan's depths. Not once. Dual wielding twin scimitars is definitely the faster of the two styles when drawn against a hand and a half bastard sword ... it doesn't make Drizzt tower over Conan speed wise. It's a stylistic different making the other no less effective.
In fact, Conan wins as he does due mostly to skill coupled with said combat speed more so than anything else. I am merely battling against a huge misconception people seem to have where Conan and 'speed' is concerned.
Might have to dig out some old school pics later on ...
@Super_SoldierXII said:
When did I state Conan was 'far' more skilled than Drizzt? Please don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.
Apologies. I read this part here.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
Gear, outside of the D&D world of stats and numbers, come in a far distant secondto skill and attributes. Both of which Conan has over Drizzt with, as aforementioned, the slight exception of dexterity due to the bracers more than anything else.
All together instead of separately.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
Conan, at his peak, is more skilled than Drizzt in my opinion, yes. But not far more skilled ... I never said that.
I still disagree with this and I've seen nothing, or heard of nothing to suggest otherwise. While Conan might have already reached his peak, Drizzt has still not even hit his yet. Until the latest novels where Salvatore was forced to write in the new timeline of the Forgotten Realms (Stupid @$$ spell-plague crap), Drizzt still had not reached a century in age. Which by Drow and Elven standards was not even an adult. Seeing as they do not reach 'adulthood' until the ages of 100-110. Now that he is over a century the experience factor is easily in his favor.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
Might have to dig out some old school pics later on ...
Look forward to seeing something that might suggest he is more skilled. Anything really.
Now a real fight would be Conan Vs Ryld. But I'm afraid no one here will really know who that is.
@BigCimmerian said:
@Erik said:
I am about 17 issues into his core DH volume, so not really that far along but he has no impressive feats in comparison to some of the crazy things I have heard about Drizzt.
During his first volume he was still a teenager, 16-18 years old, but he still has many impressive feats especially in the end o volume
I do not recall his age being mentioned in those issues except for flashbacks to childhood but whatever. Like I said, I was not far along either way.
I wish I knew more about drizzt so I could input here ...
Curious, how did Conan get so skilled? Drizzt is over a hundred years old and was trained by the best swordsman in a culture of superior swordsmen, as well as having greater dexterity and agility than a human. Amongst his peers he was easily better than the other combatants, even teachers, and Artemis and his father were his closest contemporaries and he was better than both. Even being mentioned as being on Drizzt's level skill-wise is impressive, and makes me wonder how Conan achieved this.
You guys make it seem a little easy for Drizzt.
Should I allow the Marvel version of Conan, then?
@Static Shock: Honestly to make it fair you should strip Drizzt of all his magical gear.
With everything already said I haven't even touched on the durability on Drizzt's Mirthal armor, which alone would provide him a good amount of resistance against Conan's blade. But his spider-silk shirt surpasses even that. Making highly resistant to slashing attacks. Drizzt's own scimitars could not penetrate this item.
@Erik said:
@BigCimmerian said:
@Erik said:
I am about 17 issues into his core DH volume, so not really that far along but he has no impressive feats in comparison to some of the crazy things I have heard about Drizzt.
During his first volume he was still a teenager, 16-18 years old, but he still has many impressive feats especially in the end o volume
I do not recall his age being mentioned in those issues except for flashbacks to childhood but whatever. Like I said, I was not far along either way.
It was mentioned at the beggining of several issues and Dark Horse is making chronologic order of his life, in his first volume he is 16-18 than in second one 18-21 in third 22 and now in Conan the Barbarian he is 23
@BringnIt said:
Curious, how did Conan get so skilled? Drizzt is over a hundred years old and was trained by the best swordsman in a culture of superior swordsmen, as well as having greater dexterity and agility than a human. Amongst his peers he was easily better than the other combatants, even teachers, and Artemis and his father were his closest contemporaries and he was better than both. Even being mentioned as being on Drizzt's level skill-wise is impressive, and makes me wonder how Conan achieved this.
The Drow, in D&D lore and in Forgotten Realms lore, are not the race with the penultimate swordsmen or warriors. They are actually considered stronger Clerics and Wizards. The drow race simply take the spotlight in many of Salvatore's novels due to Drizzt being his cash cow (main protagonist was originally intended to be Wulfgar but Drizzt quickly overshadowed at the end of the first trilogy).
Each race has their champions, their potential and their masters in the craft. Again, point in case, Artemis Entreri. A simple human. Not 100+ years old, not trained in Menzoberranzan and yet holds in own against Drizzt.
While among them, Drizzt is not the best swordsman/warrior/ranger in the Realms (perhaps the best amongst the drow). Conversly, at his peak, Conan is the best in his realm. Peruse the covers to some of the Savage Sword of Conan mags to get an idea of some baddies he's faced off against. It's hard to find scans of that material but the covers often refer to content - safe to say Conan does not lose in his books.
A few good reads come to mind;
- He brought low, via skill, a demon that ravaged a small army ... and he did it alone hand to hand (or claw to sword if you will). Very impressive read and skill feat when taken into context.
- Three master swordsmen from the Eastern Kingdoms sought Conan out to learn under him because they had each peaked and could find no worthy trainers. His name was renown across the realms. As he was a mere barbarian, these masters had to see it to believe it. After winning him over, Conan finally decided to cede and train them. The training was, as you may well imagine, brutal. Once Conan proclaimed he had no more to teach, they each turned on him immediately. To be truly the best, they had to beat the best. Conan bested all three easily ... crippling each but not killing them (he had grown fond of them). Crippling them all in such a way, they would have to learn to rely on one another to survive. His last lesson.
When they asked why they could not beat him if they had mastered all his lessons and were as skilled as he ... the answer was attributed to ones inner warrior, ones will, fury and determination. Conan is not just skilled, he has that 'X' factor that makes him (to coin a phrase) the very best there is at what he does.
Moral of the story is there are plenty skill feats for Conan. Again, Drizzt has done nothing Conan has not... and then some.
After reading some of the comments in general, it's fairly clear to me many have not read The Savage Sword of Conan - consequently the best material hosting many of Conan's greatest feats. Those who can actually question whether Conan has the skill to match Drizzt just don't know Conan in the light in which he was introduced.
As said in my original post, if this is just Dark Horse Conan ... based off those feats, he probably loses.
That said, my argument centers around the premise Conan is allotted feats from Savage Sword and has the weaponry to hurt Drizzt. If the OP chooses to take Drizzt's mithril as able to turn away all blades (I don't remember it being billed as that impregnable in the novels), then this confrontation is unfair and the question of Drizzt's armor and its abilities needs to be addressed before carrying on further in this debate.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
(I don't remember it being billed as that impregnable in the novels)
Perhaps you should read the Hunter's Blade trilogy. It is located in either the Lone Drow (Book 2). He is fighting two of the Drow who are manipulating the events of this trilogy. Donnia Soldou, and Ad'non Kareese.
Page 180; It hit him squarely in the chest, and he screamed.
And the hunter growled, thinking the fight at its end.
But the scimitar did not penetrate! Nor did its sister blade score a mortal wound as it came in hard against Ad'non's side. Oh yes, the two blades had hurt the drow warrior, but neither had found its way in for the kill.
Page 200; One other thing that did catch his eye though: the fine light gray silk shirt that Ad'non wore under his cloak. That shirt had stopped Drizzt's scimitar's; he could see the indentation marks where his fine blades had struck hard. Furthermore. though the area all around the corpse was deep in blood, none of it seemed to touch Ad'non's shirt.
"Strong magic," Innovindil remarked, and when Drizzt looked to her, she motions for him to take the shirt as his own. "To the victor . . ." she remarked.
Notice that neither one of his magical blades penetrated the armor. Yes the force behind the strikes 'hurt', but there was no cut.
@Super_SoldierXII said:
Moral of the story is there are plenty skill feats for Conan. Again, Drizzt has done nothing Conan has not... and then some.
This goes both ways. The deciding factor is equipment. Which puts this into Drizzt's win category by a landslide.
@BigCimmerian said:
It was mentioned at the beggining of several issues and Dark Horse is making chronologic order of his life, in his first volume he is 16-18 than in second one 18-21 in third 22 and now in Conan the Barbarian he is 23
Can you give me one such issue to see for myself? I only remember seeing things along the lines of "young man" or similar narration.
@mezlabor said:
This is a tough Fight. They are both very accomplished fighters. I dont know anything about DH conan but I have read most of the original Conan novels. Drizzt's magic is pretty meaningless against Conan here. Rangers don't have very powerful magic and neither does Drizzt. Conan has faced powerful magicians as well as demons before so Drizzt's magic wont be of much use. Conan is stronger and probably the more skilled combatant. Drizz'ts magical items give him an advantage but Conan is skilled enough to overcome that I think. He's fought worse then Drizzt and come out on top. I mean crap he killed the king of the Frost Giants. It wont be an easy fight fo Conan tho. Drizzt will give it good and Conan will come out badly injured but the winner.
Novel Conan=Dark Horse Conan
@BigCimmerian said:
@mezlabor said:
This is a tough Fight. They are both very accomplished fighters. I dont know anything about DH conan but I have read most of the original Conan novels. Drizzt's magic is pretty meaningless against Conan here. Rangers don't have very powerful magic and neither does Drizzt. Conan has faced powerful magicians as well as demons before so Drizzt's magic wont be of much use. Conan is stronger and probably the more skilled combatant. Drizz'ts magical items give him an advantage but Conan is skilled enough to overcome that I think. He's fought worse then Drizzt and come out on top. I mean crap he killed the king of the Frost Giants. It wont be an easy fight fo Conan tho. Drizzt will give it good and Conan will come out badly injured but the winner.
Novel Conan=Dark Horse Conan
@Andy Steven Summers:
This goes both ways. The deciding factor is equipment. Which puts this into Drizzt's win category by a landslide.
By a landslide? No. No it doesn't. First, Drizzt's blades will not be hitting that 'shirt' with anywhere near the force Conan's hand and a half sword would. Second, I've lost count of all the foes Conan decapitates. Arms, legs, neck, head ... plenty of targets. Conan's tagged them all. So having a magical mail shirt does not protect numerous advantageously exposed kill strikes Conan is sure to be gunning for.
I will say it lends him a modicum of important protection and, therefore, a certain advantage. But no where near a landslide. That's pushing the envelope. If Conan's wielding the Master's sword (his father's sword) or the Atlantean sword, I'm sure they can and should be considered 'magical' as well. Robert E. Howard did not have the luxury of decades of D&D lore whence illustrating the power of a particular blade. But they were clearly a tier or three above the common run of the mill.
@Super_SoldierXII: Nothing you said changes the fact that Drizzt still maintains a durability advantage (and by a large margin) thanks to his magical equipment.
'Considered' magical and it actually being stated as such are completely different. Beyond any doubt we know both of Drizzt's scimitars are magical and as with his mirhtal armor and spidersilk shirt. Give him yet another advantage.
I've still yet to see any reasonable evidence on why Conan win this.
Strip Drizzt of his magical gear and make this all normal equipment and it is a fair fight. Drizzt with all his gear takes this each and every time for reasons stated numerous times in this thread.
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