Dream of the Endless vs The Spectre

@JediXMan said:

@Primebonnick:

Destruction lacks actual feats. I would argue the following as the order of the Endless:

Death

Destiny

Dream

Destruction

Desire

Despair

Delirium / Delight

Yes, DoV does have some good feats. The best one would be when he killed Shazam. But CoIE Spectre is greater. And I would argue that that version of the Spectre was not SA, since CoIE itself is considered the point where the Silver Age ended.

Yup, and as Destiny doesn't act I'd say it comes down to Death/Dream as the ones you should fear. To incur either's wrath will make you sorely regret whatever you did.

@JonesDeini:

Indeed. But Destiny does have some feats. If I recall correctly, Lucifer fought him and it was a very close fight. But since I haven't read it myself, I can't say for certain. But as for fear, yes, it's Dream and Death. In one of the issues, someone commented that "Death is kinder than he." I believe it was in Endless Nights.

@JediXMan said:

@JonesDeini:

Indeed. But Destiny does have some feats. If I recall correctly, Lucifer fought him and it was a very close fight. But since I haven't read it myself, I can't say for certain. But as for fear, yes, it's Dream and Death. In one of the issues, someone commented that "Death is kinder than he." I believe it was in Endless Nights.

Destiny and Lucifer didn't actually fight. They were sitting at a table together and Lucifer told him "As a concept, you offend me" (which is in keeping with Lucifer being an advocate of free will and so on), and the conversation deteriorated until Lucifer snatched away Destiny's Book of Souls and set it ablaze. He thought that it would take away Destiny's sight of all that was, is and will be. But then Destiny showed him his future in the ashes of the book, which was basically a demonstration that no matter what Lucifer did, he would still be bound by Destiny's rules whether he liked it or not.

@JediXMan: Here it is:

Spectre

@CitizenBane said:

To prevent any damage being done to the Dreaming, Dream takes the fight to a neutral universe. You can use feats from any of the Spectre's hosts. Winner will be decided by KO/containment/BFR, since neither of these two can actually die. The match will be refereed by Death.

And....go.

I'm not sure that Dream can be KO'd. I don't think that makes sense to think of Dream as being awake or asleep. I'm not sure that Dream can be BFR'd considering he's an aspect of existence. He'd always be present for a sentient being like Spectre. Containment is an interesting question, Morpheus was bound by magic and harmed by the Furies, but I got the sense it was only because he'd agreed at some point to abide by certain rules that were weaved into the magical substructure of existence, rules that were inferior to his level of fundamental reality. I'm saying that Morpheus agreed to nerf himself for his own mysterious purposes, probably because he got wrapped up in some story. I don't know think Daniel could be bound the same way. In fact, I'd guess that if Dream refrained from anthropomorphising into a being and retained his abstraction he'd be invincible to everyone save to the will of the Prescence. Even Lucifer couldn't destroy the Dreaming without his father's permission.

I'd guess that he Dream could contain or BFR the Spectre, but not indefinitely. Especially not if Spectre was on a divine mission. The Spectre in his role would be as powerful as Dream in his aspect. They are both parts of the will of the Prescence.

@Primebonnick:

Destruction lacks actual feats. I would argue the following as the order of the Endless:

Death

Destiny

Dream

Destruction

Desire

Despair

Delirium / Delight

Yes, DoV does have some good feats. The best one would be when he killed Shazam. But CoIE Spectre is greater. And I would argue that that version of the Spectre was not SA, since CoIE itself is considered the point where the Silver Age ended.

@JediXMan said:

@Primebonnick:

Destruction lacks actual feats. I would argue the following as the order of the Endless:

Death

Destiny

Dream

Destruction

Desire

Despair

Delirium / Delight

Yes, DoV does have some good feats. The best one would be when he killed Shazam. But CoIE Spectre is greater. And I would argue that that version of the Spectre was not SA, since CoIE itself is considered the point where the Silver Age ended.

Actually COIE is when the Bronze age ended and the beginning of the "modern age". The silver age is generally from 1955 to 1970 (COIE being 85)

great thread pretty good debating here

@CapitolPunishment:

@beatboks1:

My mistake. I tend to lump the Bronze Age and the Silver Age together as the CCA age.

@Illuminatus said:

@HolySerpent said:

Wait. Backing up specter again. He want toe to toe with micheal. He lost but it was a good fight

No, it wasn't.

lol!

@jedixman: Huh...was it jim corrigan who was in spectre?or crisprus allen?.....and when the spectre fought mandrakk who was the host in the spectre?

When are you referring to? It was Jim Corrigan who fought CoIE Anti-Monitor, he had no host when he fought Captain Marvel and the wizard Shazam, and when did he ever fight Mandrakk?

dream wins.

@jedixman: my bad ..spectre never fought mandrakk...but wait...are u sure it was jim corrigan who fought the coie anti monitor?...some were saying it was crisprus allen...wasnt even spectre strong version when he faced the monitor...blady dc reboot ruined the spectre powers...

No. Crispus Allen became the Spectre doing Infinite Crisis, which is after Hal Jordan's time as the Spectre, which is again after Jim Corrigan. There is absolutely no possibility that it was Crispus. It was definitely Jim Corrigan; plus, each of those three people have unique facial features, so it's pretty easy to tell them apart.

Not really. Spectre's powerlevels haven't changed much. His powers in CoIE were not his natural powers, and that was explicitly stated in CoIE: he possessed the powers of Classic Dr. Fate, Phantom Stranger, and many other extremely powerful mystics. It was a temporary power boost.

@jedixman: wait dude..crispus allen was the one in coie when fighting coie anti monitor?(i tink it was crispus,could u ask citizen bane for confirmation)im pretty sure it was crispus allen,..lets clear the first thing up..during pre crisis dc, the comics and power levels or writing were pretty much off as in mix up or was it a permanent fact or ...thats why dc rebooted and became post crisis?...

!.And why would spectre need the 8 mystical force or sorcerers to take on the anti monitor(backed by all the heroes powers in the universe)when the presence is at crispus allen spectre side?i dont get that part dude..

2.You said that during coie were nt spectre natural powers?whadaya mean?by that...and if crispus allen was in the spectre..he wasn't the most powerful version of the the spectre isn't nit?

3.why does the spectre need all this classic fate,phantom stranger,and many other mystic..when he has God with him?..really helpful if u could clear this up...thanks bro

Spectre.....jobs way too much.

Crispus Allen didn't even exist during COIE. That was Jim Corrigan.

No. I said it was Jim Corrigan who fought Anti-Monitor, not Crispus Allen.

I think I know where you got confused: Infinite Crisis is not the same thing as Crisis on Infinite Earths. CoIE is when Spectre (Corrigan) fought the Anti-Monitor. Crispus Allen did not come about until Infinite Crisis. Crisis on Infinite Earths came out in 1985; Infinite Crisis, essentially the "sequel" to CoIE, came out in 2005.

Yes, the power levels (particularly Superman and probably the GLs) were overpowered. CoIE fixed everything. Spectre did not seem to change much.

Because he did. I forget exactly why the Presence couldn't/didn't amp him. I just know, for a fact, that he did get amped by sorcerers and not by the Presence or his own power. And again: it was not Crispus Allen who was the Spectre. It was Jim Corrigan.

It was not Crispus Allen. And by the Spectre's natural powers, I mean that he was amped by an outside source - specifically, the powers of Dr. Fate, Phantom Stranger, and others. It wasn't his own power; the Spectre has abilities that the spirit Aztar (the name of the Spectre spirit) possesses, but those were insufficient to mean the threat of the Anti-Monitor.

The most powerful Spectre feats were one of the following:

1. Jim Corrigan, back when he was fighting classic Dr. Fate
2. Unbound Spectre (purely the spirit Aztar, essentially) who was without a host; this was after Hal Jordan but before Crispus Allen. The Presence bound the Spectre to Crispus Allen was punishment, because the Spectre needed to be bound by a host or it would go mad.

I already mentioned that.

So we're clear, this is the timeline for Spectre hosts:

1. Jim Corrigan
2. Hal Jordan
3. Crispus Allen

Aztar refers to the spirit of the Spectre itself.

@citizenbane: Thanks dude..

@jedixman......woooahh...dude.pheww...now i get it...so it was Jim corrigon..sorry

Num 2 answer relieved me...on why spectre didnt get an amp/or used his powers by the presence..hmm..i have to read up on that part..i see ..awesome answer dude...thanks alot..

One more thing..i jst read final crisis..last pages...about this blue guy(nt sure who) combined ultraman and superman of the multiverse into the cosmic armor superman to fight off mandrakk..in the first fight CA supes defeated mandrakk(he fell downwards somewhere)..then on the 2nd fight,cosmic armour superman was separated ....mandrakk corrupted ultraman(superman of nt sure which earth) to become mandrakk slave...then superman(multiverse)was talking to mandrakk...while they were talking,mandrakk said to supes,,that he defeated the guardian of the universe, i can see radiant and not sure is it the spectre lying unconscious on the floor....superman then used some power to open a portal to all the universe heroes and mandrakk son appeared with them,(noux su his name?)..and defeated mandrakk...

if the battle didn't take place..i just want to know how did the spectre/radiant loose to mandrakk?or did i miss something...

@kidthunder:

No, it was JIM CORRIGAN. Crispus Allen did not exist until well after the fight with the Anti-Monitor.

Mandrakk never fought the Spectre and the Radiant. They fought Vandal Savage, who was - in reality - Cain (as in Cain and Abel). Cain defeated the Spectre and the Radiant because he had possession of the Spear of Destiny, which is a powerful Holy item that has the power to enslave the Spectre. The Spear of Destiny is another name for the Lance of Longinus, the spear which pierced Jesus Christ on the cross. It had power because it still had the blood of Jesus on it. The spear had become corrupted during its time in Hitler's possession. After Cain was defeated, the darkness was lifted and the blood turned into tears.

mistype...dude..it was jim corrigan...

Of course thats how they can be defeated.. , that's how the spectre and radiant loss..but why did mandrakk say he defeated the guardian of the universe..have u checked it out?to superman of multiverse...in final crisis...where does vandal savage fit in..

And just to ask...can The spectre beat mandrakk?and why...

@jedixman:

mistype...dude..it was jim corrigan...

Of course thats how they can be defeated.. , that's how the spectre and radiant loss..but why did mandrakk say he defeated the guardian of the universe..have u checked it out?to superman of multiverse...in final crisis...where does vandal savage fit in..

And just to ask your opinion...can The spectre beat mandrakk?and why..

@kidthunder: Spectre did not get a boost from Logoz (there has been absolutely no mention of Presence ever giving extra powers to Spectre) in COIE because Logoz was not even created back then. The concept of Logoz was first introduced in Spectre volume 3, some 10 years "after" COIE, and used first in his 4th volume.

@killemall: Hmmm...interesting dude...Got to say ..i have a lot to read on man...and i dont think jedixman read the spectre vs mandrakk in final crisis revelation,he just stating the cain vs spectre thing issue..as he said mandrakk never fought the spectre.....thats where i got confuse...

But if the battle didnt take place...and mandrakk claims he drained them spectre and radiant...well...hmm..hard to say..

No the concept of Logoz was first introduced in fourth issue of volume 4.

I'm not sure Spectre could actually harm a high abstract like Morpheus/Dream? Not sure what limitations the Spectre would have on his powers in Morpheus's realm? He was inprisoned within a planet/micro world? By Qwsp, a 5D imp, taken out of the picture fairly easily, as he generally is in plot devices.

@assman said:

I'm not sure Spectre could actually harm a high abstract like Morpheus/Dream? Not sure what limitations the Spectre would have on his powers in Morpheus's realm? He was inprisoned within a planet/micro world? By Qwsp, a 5D imp, taken out of the picture fairly easily, as he generally is in plot devices.

Ahem. That was a hostless Spectre. Also Lkz(The blue 5th dimensional imp who imprisoned Spectre) stalemated Thunderbolt, whom Spectre stomped with great ease in JSA's tie in with Day of Vengeance.

Plus;

Also Spectre's war on magic caused this;

@ SithLantern93

So, he's weak now when he's host less ? Was he not hostless in DOV? Doesn't a human host suppose to just keep him in check, not power him up? I thought it was qwsp that imprisoned him? Don't take this the wrong way, but your logic doesn't really help you? The supposed imp that imprisoned the Spectre stalemated another imp, whom the spectre stomped? So, the spectre let himself get imprisoned?? How did that help him when he obviously got overpowerd and imprisoned? There is just too much plot involved with the Spectre, is all i'm saying, and he's hard to gauge and all over the place, and believe that he has limits imposed on him, irrespective of him being gods vengeance, doesn't mean he is all mighty, imo.

@assman: Spectre occasionally suffers from inconsistency and PIS. His encounter with Nekron and him being unable to affect him due to Nekron not having a soul is an example. Why? When Neron came across Lobo and Lobo wanted Neron's soul to trick him, Neron said that he had no soul and in Day of Judgement, when Asmodel and Hal Jordan assumed the role of Spectre, both them stomped Neron with ease. As for host powering him up, well the host can make the Spectre more powerful or weaker through his or her psychology. When Hal became Spectre for the first time, he was quite weak and had troubles with foes that are normally far below the scope of Spectre's power. Why? Firstly, Hal was still shocked from his experience with becoming Parallax and trying to remake the creation into his image and when he was given enormous power yet again, his reluctance was keeping him from utilizing the actual might of Spectre. Secondly, Hal was still thinking with his human, not with the perception he gained when he merged with Spectre.

Yeah, I know, that's generally the first thing that comes up with Spectre, and i'd say little bit more than occasionally, but that's just me.

@assman: Well I am changing my opinion. I think it is more than occasional too.

Hmmm bump

Dream takes this

I believe Dream is beyond Spectre in power along with Destiny and Death but this is only because The Spectre is a sentient being who still lives within the concepts those three Endless represent. Unlike Mikey, Gabe, and Lucy, The Spectre does not predate the DCU nor did he help create it. He is confined under the affects of the most powerful Endless. He will still put up a fight since he is still immensely powerful though.

Endless

Good fight but Morpheus should win.

"in JLA classified, the red king used a portion of Morpheus's power to make and destroy more than 60 billion universes."

keep in mind that dream of the endless doesn't keep all his power within him. he has his power in bags of sands, helm, dream land,dream crystals etc.

This battle is hard to decide, since it depends on which version of Spectre is being used. Most would lose. Some, like Crispus and Golden Age Corrigan, would get horribly stomped. Dawn of Time version would put up a very good fight power wise. But in terms of the abstract quality that Morpheus represents? I don't know. Spectre uses reality warping and since Morpheus is also the embodiment of realities in DC as well as dreams, and the hosts (especially Jordan) have shown the ability to dream something, Morpheus can win rather handily.

Full power Spectre stomps

Dream.

Dream handily.

Dream stomps

Dream wins.

Dream

Dream

Spectre