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#1 Posted by Saren (25070 posts) - - Show Bio

The Spectre is pursuing the Joker through time and space, seeking to finally bring divine justice to the madman. But at the last minute, the Joker leaps into the Dreaming! The Spectre follows him inside.

But then Dream shows up, and says he will not tolerate violence in his realm! The Spectre tells him to stand aside, as there are rules that must be followed.

Spectre gets angry and tries to kill the Joker, but Dream stops him and blasts him into dust. But just as he turns his back, the Spectre reforms from oblivion!

To prevent any damage being done to the Dreaming, Dream takes the fight to a neutral universe. You can use feats from any of the Spectre's hosts. Winner will be decided by KO/containment/BFR, since neither of these two can actually die. The match will be refereed by Death.

And....go.

#2 Posted by HolySerpent (12806 posts) - - Show Bio

Spectra wins.

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#3 Posted by Saren (25070 posts) - - Show Bio

@HolySerpent: Why?

@isaac_clarke: I wouldn't take that Nekron incident seriously. Spectre supposedly couldn't affect the dead in that showing, despite the fact that he's had dominion over them for decades prior. Ordinarily, the Spectre should be much more powerful than Nekron.

#4 Posted by Decoy Elite (29923 posts) - - Show Bio
@HolySerpent said:
Spectra wins.
Who's Spectra. (Man, I am just catching you constantly today.) 
 
 
Hurm, Dream's pretty powerful even outside his realm, so he might be able to figure a way to keep the Spectre down.  
 
IIRC Spectre was keep out of the mix by Quisp(who somehow was able to surround him in a planet or something like that), Dream might be able to replicate that, but I'm not sure. 
#5 Posted by HolySerpent (12806 posts) - - Show Bio

Anti monitor >>>>> dream

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#6 Posted by HolySerpent (12806 posts) - - Show Bio

Spectre was able to hold of the anti monitor

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#7 Posted by Decoy Elite (29923 posts) - - Show Bio
@HolySerpent said:
Spectre was able to hold of the anti monitor
When? 
#8 Posted by Decoy Elite (29923 posts) - - Show Bio

And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?

#9 Posted by Illuminatus (9489 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
#10 Posted by Saren (25070 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

@HolySerpent said:
Spectre was able to hold of the anti monitor
When?

During COIE, but that was after receiving power from Classic Fate, Zatanna, and the rest of Earth's mystics.

#11 Posted by Decoy Elite (29923 posts) - - Show Bio
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.  
 
@CitizenBane said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@HolySerpent said:
Spectre was able to hold of the anti monitor
When?

During COIE, but that was after receiving power from Classic Fate, Zatanna, and the rest of Earth's mystics.

So it's Pre-Crisis? Are we counting those feats?
#12 Posted by Saren (25070 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite: No.

#13 Posted by Illuminatus (9489 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.  
 

Dream would presumably go after Spectre's mind.
#14 Posted by HolySerpent (12806 posts) - - Show Bio

^ duuuhhhhh. He said we can use any feats. Lol

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#15 Posted by Outside_85 (10240 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't think the Spectre can kill Dream without having to provide a new Dream or become Dream, but I am pretty sure Dream is a beast in his own realm since even Lucifer seemed to have some respect for him.

#16 Posted by Decoy Elite (29923 posts) - - Show Bio
@HolySerpent said:
^ duuuhhhhh. He said we can use any feats. Lol
@CitizenBane said:

@Decoy Elite: No.

SNAP!
#17 Posted by Decoy Elite (29923 posts) - - Show Bio
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.  
 

Dream would presumably go after Spectre's mind.
Then Dream should win. IIRC Martian Manhunter was able to get in his mind at least once, and while he didn't do much damage in the story I read he wasn't trying to do so. 
#18 Posted by Saren (25070 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outside_85 said:

Don't think the Spectre can kill Dream without having to provide a new Dream or become Dream, but I am pretty sure Dream is a beast in his own realm since even Lucifer seemed to have some respect for him.

Lucifer respected him for the kind of man he was, not his power. In his series Lucy warped the Dreaming from the outside with a wave of his hands, against Daniel Hall's will.

#19 Posted by HolySerpent (12806 posts) - - Show Bio

He said we could use any feats. He need to make statements more clearer

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#20 Posted by Saren (25070 posts) - - Show Bio

@HolySerpent said:

He said we could use any feats. He need to make statements more clearer

Ok, now I'm saying no Pre-Crisis feats, since Dream didn't even exist until after the Crisis.

#21 Posted by Decoy Elite (29923 posts) - - Show Bio
@HolySerpent said:
He said we could use any feats. He need to make statements more clearer
He feats from any host. Not any feats period. 
#22 Posted by Illuminatus (9489 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.  
 

Dream would presumably go after Spectre's mind.
Then Dream should win. IIRC Martian Manhunter was able to get in his mind at least once, and while he didn't do much damage in the story I read he wasn't trying to do so. 
What would Spectre even be able to do to Dream?
#23 Posted by Decoy Elite (29923 posts) - - Show Bio
@Illuminatus: Uhh...stuff?
#24 Posted by Illuminatus (9489 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite: Lol. My thoughts exactly. 
#25 Posted by HolySerpent (12806 posts) - - Show Bio

Whatever. I guess I'll go with dream then. Gosh,I was really banking on that feat

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#26 Posted by HolySerpent (12806 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait. Backing up specter again. He want toe to toe with micheal. He lost but it was a good fight

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#27 Posted by Illuminatus (9489 posts) - - Show Bio
@HolySerpent said:
Wait. Backing up specter again. He want toe to toe with micheal. He lost but it was a good fight
No, it wasn't.
#28 Posted by Saren (25070 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.
Dream would presumably go after Spectre's mind.
Then Dream should win. IIRC Martian Manhunter was able to get in his mind at least once, and while he didn't do much damage in the story I read he wasn't trying to do so.
What would Spectre even be able to do to Dream?

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

#29 Posted by Illuminatus (9489 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane said:

@Illuminatus said:

@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.
Dream would presumably go after Spectre's mind.
Then Dream should win. IIRC Martian Manhunter was able to get in his mind at least once, and while he didn't do much damage in the story I read he wasn't trying to do so.
What would Spectre even be able to do to Dream?

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

I'm assuming, Dream could figure out a way to go after Corrigan's mind, even if he does handle those types of situations better.  If that fails, then I'm not sure what would happen.
#30 Posted by Saren (25070 posts) - - Show Bio

@HolySerpent said:

Wait. Backing up specter again. He want toe to toe with micheal. He lost but it was a good fight

He fought Michael twice, got swatted both times. If a good fight took place, I didn't see it.

#31 Posted by TheBatman586 (6302 posts) - - Show Bio

How powerful is Dream? I've never actually seen any solid feats from him, only hyperbole. If anyone has scans, I'd like to see them.

#32 Posted by HolySerpent (12806 posts) - - Show Bio

Micheal had to put some effort into beating him

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#33 Posted by Illuminatus (9489 posts) - - Show Bio
@HolySerpent said:
Micheal had to put some effort into beating him
Not really. Michael didn't want to completely eradicate Spectre from existence, so he didn't do anything special. He just swatted him like a fly.
#34 Posted by Decoy Elite (29923 posts) - - Show Bio

Spercte has been taken down(sort of) by reality warping. Mind you it was off panel but Dream might be able to replicate it(don't know if how powerful his reality warping outside of Dreaming TBH. :/)

#35 Posted by Saren (25070 posts) - - Show Bio

@Decoy Elite said:

Spercte has been taken down(sort of) by reality warping. Mind you it was off panel but Dream might be able to replicate it(don't know if how powerful his reality warping outside of Dreaming TBH. :/)

Suns were afraid of his wrath, and when he entered Hell in Preludes and Nocturnes it was kind of acknowledged that with the exception of Lucifer, he was the most powerful being there. While being extremely weakened, he was able to put many people into a never-ending sleep without meaning to, and he erased the Corinthian from existence with a wave of his hand.

#36 Posted by Morpheus_ (29696 posts) - - Show Bio
@Decoy Elite said:
Spercte has been taken down(sort of) by reality warping. Mind you it was off panel but Dream might be able to replicate it(don't know if how powerful his reality warping outside of Dreaming TBH. :/)
He turned a real city into an endless dream during Sandman: Ramadan. The bargain took place in the city itself, so he was outside the Dreaming.
 
Using feats for Spec from all the hosts is perplexing. Hosts didn't have the same level of efficiency in just about every level. Corrigan ate the King of Tears in a single attack while Hal Jordan got one-shotted by him and had his skin flayed off his bones (how you can flay skin off necroplasm is something only Geoff Johns can answer).
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#37 Posted by Decoy Elite (29923 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane said:

@Decoy Elite said:

Spercte has been taken down(sort of) by reality warping. Mind you it was off panel but Dream might be able to replicate it(don't know if how powerful his reality warping outside of Dreaming TBH. :/)

Suns were afraid of his wrath, and when he entered Hell in Preludes and Nocturnes it was kind of acknowledged that with the exception of Lucifer, he was the most powerful being there. While being extremely weakened, he was able to put many people into a never-ending sleep without meaning to, and he erased the Corinthian from existence with a wave of his hand.

See that sort of thing is why I think he can replicate Quisp feat(trapping Spectre in a living planet), but I'm not sure if he'd try something like that. I think he's smart enough to do so, but you never know.  
 
Not to mention Quisp did that to Hal-Spectre off panel(we only ever see the results), so if it would work is questionable. 
#38 Posted by Morpheus_ (29696 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane said:

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

The fight is pretty speculative for me, but the Spectre, for all his power, still has dreams, hopes and aspirations, both his own and of his hosts. Dream could use that. It's by no means concrete, just throwing the idea out there.
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#39 Posted by Saren (25070 posts) - - Show Bio

@Morpheus_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

The fight is pretty speculative for me, but the Spectre, for all his power, still has dreams, hopes and aspirations, both his own and of his hosts. Dream could use that. It's by no means concrete, just throwing the idea out there.

True, but with the exception of Destiny none of the Endless had any kind of power over Lucifer. I thought that might apply to any angels possessing high levels of power, but then again it might just come down to Lucifer being Lucifer.

#40 Posted by JediXMan (31282 posts) - - Show Bio
@HolySerpent said:
Spectre was able to hold of the anti monitor
Not under his own power. He was enhanced by all of the the world's most powerful mystics, which included classic Fate and Phantom Stranger. So it is not a relevant feat here.
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#41 Posted by Morpheus_ (29696 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane said:

@Morpheus_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

The fight is pretty speculative for me, but the Spectre, for all his power, still has dreams, hopes and aspirations, both his own and of his hosts. Dream could use that. It's by no means concrete, just throwing the idea out there.

True, but with the exception of Destiny none of the Endless had any kind of power over Lucifer. I thought that might apply to any angels possessing high levels of power, but then again it might just come down to Lucifer being Lucifer.

I think it's just for angels of Lucifer and Michael's status. Gabriel was also pretty powerful overall and was implied he'd beat the First of the Fallen with a snap of his fingers, but I'm not sure that's something Dream wouldn't be able to do. But I am unsure if Aztar qualifies as being so high up the hierarchy.
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#42 Posted by Saren (25070 posts) - - Show Bio

@Morpheus_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Morpheus_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

The fight is pretty speculative for me, but the Spectre, for all his power, still has dreams, hopes and aspirations, both his own and of his hosts. Dream could use that. It's by no means concrete, just throwing the idea out there.

True, but with the exception of Destiny none of the Endless had any kind of power over Lucifer. I thought that might apply to any angels possessing high levels of power, but then again it might just come down to Lucifer being Lucifer.

I think it's just for angels of Lucifer and Michael's status. Gabriel was also pretty powerful overall and was implied he'd beat the First of the Fallen with a snap of his fingers, but I'm not sure that's something Dream wouldn't be able to do. But I am unsure if Aztar qualifies as being so high up the hierarchy.

In The Books Of Magic he was mentioned as one of the high-ranking archangels along with people like Michael and Raphael. That was under the name Raguel though.

#43 Posted by Morpheus_ (29696 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane said:

In The Books Of Magic he was mentioned as one of the high-ranking archangels along with people like Michael and Raphael. That was under the name Raguel though.

I always wondered if Raguel from Murder Mysteries was supposed to be the same character as the Spectre. My doubts mostly hing on the fact that he was seen in the modern era but didn't resemble Spectre in the least, even though their function was fairly similar.
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#44 Posted by Primebonnick (2917 posts) - - Show Bio

if this is an unbounded spectre i say him. If its with a host i say draw

#45 Posted by JediXMan (31282 posts) - - Show Bio

Morpheus wins if this is in the Dreaming. He still wins but not as easily out of the Dreaming.

@Primebonnick said:

if this is an unbounded spectre i say him. If its with a host i say draw

Unbound Spectre actually is not that powerful by comparison. The strongest incarnation of the Spectre was Jim Corrigan when he fought the Anti-Monitor.

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#46 Posted by Primebonnick (2917 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: yea they have downgraded the spectre from what he used to be in the SA but DOV showings weren't too bad. I still give mad props to dream though he'sone of my faves next to death and destruction even though i know he's not as powerful as them

#47 Posted by JonesDeini (3501 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

Don't think the Spectre can kill Dream without having to provide a new Dream or become Dream, but I am pretty sure Dream is a beast in his own realm since even Lucifer seemed to have some respect for him.

Lucifer respected him for the kind of man he was, not his power. In his series Lucy warped the Dreaming from the outside with a wave of his hands, against Daniel Hall's will.

Daniel was inexperienced though

#48 Edited by JediXMan (31282 posts) - - Show Bio

@Primebonnick:

Destruction lacks actual feats. I would argue the following as the order of the Endless:

Death

Destiny

Dream

Destruction

Desire

Despair

Delirium / Delight

Yes, DoV does have some good feats. The best one would be when he killed Shazam. But CoIE Spectre is greater. And I would argue that that version of the Spectre was not SA, since CoIE itself is considered the point where the Silver Age ended.

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#49 Posted by JonesDeini (3501 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

@Morpheus_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

The fight is pretty speculative for me, but the Spectre, for all his power, still has dreams, hopes and aspirations, both his own and of his hosts. Dream could use that. It's by no means concrete, just throwing the idea out there.

True, but with the exception of Destiny none of the Endless had any kind of power over Lucifer. I thought that might apply to any angels possessing high levels of power, but then again it might just come down to Lucifer being Lucifer.

I think that applies only to Lucifer as he exists (or at least did) as the 2nd most powerful being in the DCnU/Vertigo cosmology. As it was pointed out, Dream has the power to very effectively warp physical reality. The thing about the endless is that they were created as the embodiment of concepts, greater than Gods yet still highly subject to mortals in their own way. They're not really meant to be "fighters" so to speak. It's like comparing Tolkien's magic to the magic of harry potters. Tolkien's magic is more subtle, implied. Where as rowlings magic is tied to visible, showy feats. That being said from what I've read of both characters I'd day that Dream powers, even outside the dreaming and his length of existence would give him the edge on Specter, especially if it's not Corrigan hosting.

#50 Posted by Primebonnick (2917 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: touche i guess he wudn't be SA spectre in that respect then. The reason i rank destruction above dream is simply because of what he is most aspects of the endless really lead to him begin with destiny and end with death. Shame he has no feats but he was just too developed to have any i guess he just had everything figured out it seems much like death does.