Dream of the Endless vs The Spectre

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Saren

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#1  Edited By Saren

The Spectre is pursuing the Joker through time and space, seeking to finally bring divine justice to the madman. But at the last minute, the Joker leaps into the Dreaming! The Spectre follows him inside.

No Caption Provided

But then Dream shows up, and says he will not tolerate violence in his realm! The Spectre tells him to stand aside, as there are rules that must be followed.

No Caption Provided

Spectre gets angry and tries to kill the Joker, but Dream stops him and blasts him into dust. But just as he turns his back, the Spectre reforms from oblivion!

No Caption Provided

To prevent any damage being done to the Dreaming, Dream takes the fight to a neutral universe. You can use feats from any of the Spectre's hosts. Winner will be decided by KO/containment/BFR, since neither of these two can actually die. The match will be refereed by Death.

No Caption Provided

And....go.

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HolySerpent

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#2  Edited By HolySerpent

Spectra wins.

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Saren

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#3  Edited By Saren

@HolySerpent: Why?

@isaac_clarke: I wouldn't take that Nekron incident seriously. Spectre supposedly couldn't affect the dead in that showing, despite the fact that he's had dominion over them for decades prior. Ordinarily, the Spectre should be much more powerful than Nekron.

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Decoy Elite

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#4  Edited By Decoy Elite
@HolySerpent said:
Spectra wins.
Who's Spectra. (Man, I am just catching you constantly today.) 
 
 
Hurm, Dream's pretty powerful even outside his realm, so he might be able to figure a way to keep the Spectre down.  
 
IIRC Spectre was keep out of the mix by Quisp(who somehow was able to surround him in a planet or something like that), Dream might be able to replicate that, but I'm not sure. 
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HolySerpent

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#5  Edited By HolySerpent

Anti monitor >>>>> dream

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HolySerpent

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#6  Edited By HolySerpent

Spectre was able to hold of the anti monitor

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Decoy Elite

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#7  Edited By Decoy Elite
@HolySerpent said:
Spectre was able to hold of the anti monitor
When? 
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Decoy Elite

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#8  Edited By Decoy Elite

And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?

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TrueIlluminatus

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#9  Edited By TrueIlluminatus
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
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Saren

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#10  Edited By Saren

@Decoy Elite said:

@HolySerpent said:
Spectre was able to hold of the anti monitor
When?

During COIE, but that was after receiving power from Classic Fate, Zatanna, and the rest of Earth's mystics.

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Decoy Elite

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#11  Edited By Decoy Elite
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.  
 
@CitizenBane said:

@Decoy Elite said:

@HolySerpent said:
Spectre was able to hold of the anti monitor
When?

During COIE, but that was after receiving power from Classic Fate, Zatanna, and the rest of Earth's mystics.

So it's Pre-Crisis? Are we counting those feats?
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Saren

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#12  Edited By Saren

@Decoy Elite: No.

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TrueIlluminatus

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#13  Edited By TrueIlluminatus
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.  
 

Dream would presumably go after Spectre's mind.
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HolySerpent

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#14  Edited By HolySerpent

^ duuuhhhhh. He said we can use any feats. Lol

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Outside_85

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#15  Edited By Outside_85

Don't think the Spectre can kill Dream without having to provide a new Dream or become Dream, but I am pretty sure Dream is a beast in his own realm since even Lucifer seemed to have some respect for him.

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#16  Edited By Decoy Elite
@HolySerpent said:
^ duuuhhhhh. He said we can use any feats. Lol
@CitizenBane said:

@Decoy Elite: No.

SNAP!
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Decoy Elite

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#17  Edited By Decoy Elite
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.  
 

Dream would presumably go after Spectre's mind.
Then Dream should win. IIRC Martian Manhunter was able to get in his mind at least once, and while he didn't do much damage in the story I read he wasn't trying to do so. 
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Saren

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#18  Edited By Saren

@Outside_85 said:

Don't think the Spectre can kill Dream without having to provide a new Dream or become Dream, but I am pretty sure Dream is a beast in his own realm since even Lucifer seemed to have some respect for him.

Lucifer respected him for the kind of man he was, not his power. In his series Lucy warped the Dreaming from the outside with a wave of his hands, against Daniel Hall's will.

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HolySerpent

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#19  Edited By HolySerpent

He said we could use any feats. He need to make statements more clearer

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Saren

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#20  Edited By Saren

@HolySerpent said:

He said we could use any feats. He need to make statements more clearer

Ok, now I'm saying no Pre-Crisis feats, since Dream didn't even exist until after the Crisis.

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Decoy Elite

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#21  Edited By Decoy Elite
@HolySerpent said:
He said we could use any feats. He need to make statements more clearer
He feats from any host. Not any feats period. 
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TrueIlluminatus

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#22  Edited By TrueIlluminatus
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.  
 

Dream would presumably go after Spectre's mind.
Then Dream should win. IIRC Martian Manhunter was able to get in his mind at least once, and while he didn't do much damage in the story I read he wasn't trying to do so. 
What would Spectre even be able to do to Dream?
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Decoy Elite

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#23  Edited By Decoy Elite
@Illuminatus: Uhh...stuff?
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TrueIlluminatus

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#24  Edited By TrueIlluminatus
@Decoy Elite: Lol. My thoughts exactly. 
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HolySerpent

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#25  Edited By HolySerpent

Whatever. I guess I'll go with dream then. Gosh,I was really banking on that feat

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#26  Edited By HolySerpent

Wait. Backing up specter again. He want toe to toe with micheal. He lost but it was a good fight

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#27  Edited By TrueIlluminatus
@HolySerpent said:
Wait. Backing up specter again. He want toe to toe with micheal. He lost but it was a good fight
No, it wasn't.
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#28  Edited By Saren

@Illuminatus said:

@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.
Dream would presumably go after Spectre's mind.
Then Dream should win. IIRC Martian Manhunter was able to get in his mind at least once, and while he didn't do much damage in the story I read he wasn't trying to do so.
What would Spectre even be able to do to Dream?

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

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TrueIlluminatus

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#29  Edited By TrueIlluminatus
@CitizenBane said:

@Illuminatus said:

@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
@Illuminatus said:
@Decoy Elite said:
And aren't Dream's powers very different from Anti Monitor's?
They couldn't be any more different.
Yeah, I'd say comparing them is a little pointless. Dream would use a very different kind of strategy.
Dream would presumably go after Spectre's mind.
Then Dream should win. IIRC Martian Manhunter was able to get in his mind at least once, and while he didn't do much damage in the story I read he wasn't trying to do so.
What would Spectre even be able to do to Dream?

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

I'm assuming, Dream could figure out a way to go after Corrigan's mind, even if he does handle those types of situations better.  If that fails, then I'm not sure what would happen.
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Saren

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#30  Edited By Saren

@HolySerpent said:

Wait. Backing up specter again. He want toe to toe with micheal. He lost but it was a good fight

He fought Michael twice, got swatted both times. If a good fight took place, I didn't see it.

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TheBatman586

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#31  Edited By TheBatman586

How powerful is Dream? I've never actually seen any solid feats from him, only hyperbole. If anyone has scans, I'd like to see them.

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HolySerpent

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#32  Edited By HolySerpent

Micheal had to put some effort into beating him

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#33  Edited By TrueIlluminatus
@HolySerpent said:
Micheal had to put some effort into beating him
Not really. Michael didn't want to completely eradicate Spectre from existence, so he didn't do anything special. He just swatted him like a fly.
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#34  Edited By Decoy Elite

Spercte has been taken down(sort of) by reality warping. Mind you it was off panel but Dream might be able to replicate it(don't know if how powerful his reality warping outside of Dreaming TBH. :/)

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#35  Edited By Saren

@Decoy Elite said:

Spercte has been taken down(sort of) by reality warping. Mind you it was off panel but Dream might be able to replicate it(don't know if how powerful his reality warping outside of Dreaming TBH. :/)

Suns were afraid of his wrath, and when he entered Hell in Preludes and Nocturnes it was kind of acknowledged that with the exception of Lucifer, he was the most powerful being there. While being extremely weakened, he was able to put many people into a never-ending sleep without meaning to, and he erased the Corinthian from existence with a wave of his hand.

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#36  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@Decoy Elite said:
Spercte has been taken down(sort of) by reality warping. Mind you it was off panel but Dream might be able to replicate it(don't know if how powerful his reality warping outside of Dreaming TBH. :/)
He turned a real city into an endless dream during Sandman: Ramadan. The bargain took place in the city itself, so he was outside the Dreaming.
 
Using feats for Spec from all the hosts is perplexing. Hosts didn't have the same level of efficiency in just about every level. Corrigan ate the King of Tears in a single attack while Hal Jordan got one-shotted by him and had his skin flayed off his bones (how you can flay skin off necroplasm is something only Geoff Johns can answer).
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#37  Edited By Decoy Elite
@CitizenBane said:

@Decoy Elite said:

Spercte has been taken down(sort of) by reality warping. Mind you it was off panel but Dream might be able to replicate it(don't know if how powerful his reality warping outside of Dreaming TBH. :/)

Suns were afraid of his wrath, and when he entered Hell in Preludes and Nocturnes it was kind of acknowledged that with the exception of Lucifer, he was the most powerful being there. While being extremely weakened, he was able to put many people into a never-ending sleep without meaning to, and he erased the Corinthian from existence with a wave of his hand.

See that sort of thing is why I think he can replicate Quisp feat(trapping Spectre in a living planet), but I'm not sure if he'd try something like that. I think he's smart enough to do so, but you never know.  
 
Not to mention Quisp did that to Hal-Spectre off panel(we only ever see the results), so if it would work is questionable. 
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#38  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@CitizenBane said:

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

The fight is pretty speculative for me, but the Spectre, for all his power, still has dreams, hopes and aspirations, both his own and of his hosts. Dream could use that. It's by no means concrete, just throwing the idea out there.
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#39  Edited By Saren

@Morpheus_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

The fight is pretty speculative for me, but the Spectre, for all his power, still has dreams, hopes and aspirations, both his own and of his hosts. Dream could use that. It's by no means concrete, just throwing the idea out there.

True, but with the exception of Destiny none of the Endless had any kind of power over Lucifer. I thought that might apply to any angels possessing high levels of power, but then again it might just come down to Lucifer being Lucifer.

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#40  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator
@HolySerpent said:
Spectre was able to hold of the anti monitor
Not under his own power. He was enhanced by all of the the world's most powerful mystics, which included classic Fate and Phantom Stranger. So it is not a relevant feat here.
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#41  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@CitizenBane said:

@Morpheus_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

The fight is pretty speculative for me, but the Spectre, for all his power, still has dreams, hopes and aspirations, both his own and of his hosts. Dream could use that. It's by no means concrete, just throwing the idea out there.

True, but with the exception of Destiny none of the Endless had any kind of power over Lucifer. I thought that might apply to any angels possessing high levels of power, but then again it might just come down to Lucifer being Lucifer.

I think it's just for angels of Lucifer and Michael's status. Gabriel was also pretty powerful overall and was implied he'd beat the First of the Fallen with a snap of his fingers, but I'm not sure that's something Dream wouldn't be able to do. But I am unsure if Aztar qualifies as being so high up the hierarchy.
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Saren

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#42  Edited By Saren

@Morpheus_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

@Morpheus_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

The fight is pretty speculative for me, but the Spectre, for all his power, still has dreams, hopes and aspirations, both his own and of his hosts. Dream could use that. It's by no means concrete, just throwing the idea out there.

True, but with the exception of Destiny none of the Endless had any kind of power over Lucifer. I thought that might apply to any angels possessing high levels of power, but then again it might just come down to Lucifer being Lucifer.

I think it's just for angels of Lucifer and Michael's status. Gabriel was also pretty powerful overall and was implied he'd beat the First of the Fallen with a snap of his fingers, but I'm not sure that's something Dream wouldn't be able to do. But I am unsure if Aztar qualifies as being so high up the hierarchy.

In The Books Of Magic he was mentioned as one of the high-ranking archangels along with people like Michael and Raphael. That was under the name Raguel though.

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#43  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@CitizenBane said:

In The Books Of Magic he was mentioned as one of the high-ranking archangels along with people like Michael and Raphael. That was under the name Raguel though.

I always wondered if Raguel from Murder Mysteries was supposed to be the same character as the Spectre. My doubts mostly hing on the fact that he was seen in the modern era but didn't resemble Spectre in the least, even though their function was fairly similar.
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primebonnick

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#44  Edited By primebonnick

if this is an unbounded spectre i say him. If its with a host i say draw

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#45  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator

Morpheus wins if this is in the Dreaming. He still wins but not as easily out of the Dreaming.

@Primebonnick said:

if this is an unbounded spectre i say him. If its with a host i say draw

Unbound Spectre actually is not that powerful by comparison. The strongest incarnation of the Spectre was Jim Corrigan when he fought the Anti-Monitor.

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#46  Edited By primebonnick

@JediXMan: yea they have downgraded the spectre from what he used to be in the SA but DOV showings weren't too bad. I still give mad props to dream though he'sone of my faves next to death and destruction even though i know he's not as powerful as them

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#47  Edited By JonesDeini

@CitizenBane said:

@Outside_85 said:

Don't think the Spectre can kill Dream without having to provide a new Dream or become Dream, but I am pretty sure Dream is a beast in his own realm since even Lucifer seemed to have some respect for him.

Lucifer respected him for the kind of man he was, not his power. In his series Lucy warped the Dreaming from the outside with a wave of his hands, against Daniel Hall's will.

Daniel was inexperienced though

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#48  Edited By JediXMan  Moderator

@Primebonnick:

Destruction lacks actual feats. I would argue the following as the order of the Endless:

Death

Destiny

Dream

Destruction

Desire

Despair

Delirium / Delight

Yes, DoV does have some good feats. The best one would be when he killed Shazam. But CoIE Spectre is greater. And I would argue that that version of the Spectre was not SA, since CoIE itself is considered the point where the Silver Age ended.

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#49  Edited By JonesDeini

@CitizenBane said:

@Morpheus_ said:

@CitizenBane said:

What would Dream be able to do to Spectre? That telepathy feat imo came down to Hal Jordan sucking as the Spectre's host. Jim Corrigan usually handled that kind of thing better.

The fight is pretty speculative for me, but the Spectre, for all his power, still has dreams, hopes and aspirations, both his own and of his hosts. Dream could use that. It's by no means concrete, just throwing the idea out there.

True, but with the exception of Destiny none of the Endless had any kind of power over Lucifer. I thought that might apply to any angels possessing high levels of power, but then again it might just come down to Lucifer being Lucifer.

I think that applies only to Lucifer as he exists (or at least did) as the 2nd most powerful being in the DCnU/Vertigo cosmology. As it was pointed out, Dream has the power to very effectively warp physical reality. The thing about the endless is that they were created as the embodiment of concepts, greater than Gods yet still highly subject to mortals in their own way. They're not really meant to be "fighters" so to speak. It's like comparing Tolkien's magic to the magic of harry potters. Tolkien's magic is more subtle, implied. Where as rowlings magic is tied to visible, showy feats. That being said from what I've read of both characters I'd day that Dream powers, even outside the dreaming and his length of existence would give him the edge on Specter, especially if it's not Corrigan hosting.

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#50  Edited By primebonnick

@JediXMan: touche i guess he wudn't be SA spectre in that respect then. The reason i rank destruction above dream is simply because of what he is most aspects of the endless really lead to him begin with destiny and end with death. Shame he has no feats but he was just too developed to have any i guess he just had everything figured out it seems much like death does.