Dragonball vs HST (read OP)

Because some people out there are plaguing the "Defeat Goku" thread.

Just to clarify, this is not a universe battle, select characters will be used.

This is going to be a fight between the heavyweights of the HST and the heavyweights of Dragonball (not DBZ, just Dragonball).

All logia intangibility is off (to avoid arguments over ki=haki) and of course, Shinigamis can be interacted with normally.

Team Dragonball

Goku (end of series)

Piccolo Jr

Master Roshi

Tien (end of series)

Yamcha (end of series)

Krillin (end of series)

Tau Pai Pai (as of first appearance)

Team HST

Naruto (current, with full control of Kyuubi and can use his new mode indefinitely)

Madara (no edo tensei, but has the hashirama cells, additional chakra and rinnegan)

The Sage of the Six Paths (is assumed to possess all the powers of the rinnegan but on far greater scales, but does not have the juubi)

Whitebeard

Akainu

Aokiji

Aizen (has the hogyoku, begins in the first released form)

Ichigo (final getsuga form)

Yammamoto

All are in-character (but are willing to kill) and are happy to work together as a team.

Scenario 1: straight fight.

Scenario 2: team 2 gets 30 minutes prep, the Sage begins with all 5 of his treasures and after 5 minutes they are reinforced by Minato (equipped with 30 special kunai), Kizaru and Urahara.

Fight takes place in an open field.

Who wins in which scenarios?

VS

@Death Certificate said:

Love it :')

Sage of 6 paths would solo rest in team 2, but I think team 1 will win.

Team 1 via speed blitz.

Goku And Demon King Piccolo Team up sorry but they'd just end up fighting each other and then Goku would eat senzu Train for a while and take them each one at a time having very little time to enjoy beating King piccolo he'd have to take some Senzu with him of coarse then he Win, Tao Pai Pai would Just be a coward and sell out his comrades, Yamcha would loose as soon as he got there, Kame would probablt kick some arse then chill for a while Krillin would do nothing, Tien would Join Goku for a while and have his head kicked in. Eventually I reckon Goku would hit SSJ then loose his memory before DBZ so he'd have no recollection when he faces off against Radish, Vegetable and Freiza

tbh though Goku V Sage of 6 paths would be the last battle and naruto and Goku would just be like we're both heroes why bother

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

Yama-ji can't be harmed once he releases his bankai and anything his bankai touches is burned away into nothingness. And Urahahra could potientally solo

@girugamesh: If logia intangebility is off then why is Kizaru here?

You say that as if it makes him useless. Kizaru can still travel and fight as normal, just that he can be hit by regular attacks. By the way, you'll be happy to know that I'm going to try and take a neutral stance with this to prove I'm not the only person with a shred of sense.

Out of interest, how on earth would Urahara solo?

@saiyan_earthling said:

1. DB team easily.
2. This is where Team 2 may win due to the smarts of Urahara and Aizen

Fair enough, but remember that Urahara wouldn't be there for the prep (he only comes in as a reinforcement).

DragonBall easily.

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@girugamesh said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

Yama-ji can't be harmed once he releases his bankai and anything his bankai touches is burned away into nothingness. And Urahahra could potientally solo

@girugamesh: If logia intangebility is off then why is Kizaru here?

You say that as if it makes him useless. Kizaru can still travel and fight as normal, just that he can be hit by regular attacks. By the way, you'll be happy to know that I'm going to try and take a neutral stance with this to prove I'm not the only person with a shred of sense.

Out of interest, how on earth would Urahara solo?

@saiyan_earthling said:

1. DB team easily.
2. This is where Team 2 may win due to the smarts of Urahara and Aizen

Fair enough, but remember that Urahara wouldn't be there for the prep (he only comes in as a reinforcement).

Kizaru is made of light though which basically meanns even though he can be hit he wont be harmed and Urahara is the man who made the Hogoyoku, he found out how to save Shinji and the other vizards, he created the R&D department for the Soul society and he's smarter than Mayuri, with prep there'ss no telling what kind of device he could make

1. Urahara's best prep feats are toying with Yammy and even then couldn't defeat him nothing suggest he is good enough with prep to defeat anyone in DB.

2. Yama-jii can be harmed while in bankai, you can't disintegrate energy, 1 Kamehameha and he's done.

3. When someone says Logia Intangibility off, it usually implies they can use all their abilities, but without the ability to not be harmed by physical attacks. No matter how you argue it Kizaru isn't intangible here and will not be.

HST wins because they have the sage of six paths he has infinite charka/ki and he which means he can do any jutsu he wants, he like a omnipotent or nigh-omnipotent character since madara showed obito the dream world and they can do whatever they want and he can put the DB fighters in an infinte genjutsu.

@xlab3000 said:

HST wins because they have the sage of six paths he has infinite charka/ki and he which means he can do any jutsu he wants, he like a omnipotent or nigh-omnipotent character since madara showed obito the dream world and they can do whatever they want and he can put the DB fighters in an infinte genjutsu.

Genjutsu only works on people with Chakra, and I find no qualm of Piccolo or Goku breaking out as Genjutsu has rarely ever been an instant win in Naruto.

That is, if they even survive past the 0.001 seconds they have to live.

Master Roshi in the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi could fight in 0.2 of a second, which requires reacting and thinking at a decisecond timing.

He went completely invisible and was able to preform moves at hypersonic speeds to the point where it was instantaneous,

I'm being extremely lowbally here, but late Dragon Ball Z characters make these two look like sea slugs.

@RedLanternSuperman said:

@xlab3000 said:

HST wins because they have the sage of six paths he has infinite charka/ki and he which means he can do any jutsu he wants, he like a omnipotent or nigh-omnipotent character since madara showed obito the dream world and they can do whatever they want and he can put the DB fighters in an infinte genjutsu.

Genjutsu only works on people with Chakra, and I find no qualm of Piccolo or Goku breaking out as Genjutsu has rarely ever been an instant win in Naruto.

That is, if they even survive past the 0.001 seconds they have to live.

Master Roshi in the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi could fight in 0.2 of a second, which requires reacting and thinking at a decisecond timing.

He went completely invisible and was able to preform moves at hypersonic speeds to the point where it was instantaneous,

I'm being extremely lowbally here, but late Dragon Ball Z characters make these two look like sea slugs.

@SpeedForceSpider said:

@xlab3000 said:

HST wins because they have the sage of six paths he has infinite charka/ki and he which means he can do any jutsu he wants, he like a omnipotent or nigh-omnipotent character since madara showed obito the dream world and they can do whatever they want and he can put the DB fighters in an infinte genjutsu.

Why would Genjutsu work on DB people?

I said the sot6p from naruto can put them in a genjutsu he has infinite chakra btw chakra and ki are the same thing they are used differently in both universe plus in DB who ever has more chakra/ki/power level than you they can beat you in a fight so hst wins

@xlab3000 said:

I said the sot6p from naruto can put them in a genjutsu he has infinite chakra btw chakra and ki are the same thing they are used differently in both universe plus in DB who ever has more chakra/ki/power level than you they can beat you in a fight so hst wins

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@solesamurai said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@girugamesh said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

Yama-ji can't be harmed once he releases his bankai and anything his bankai touches is burned away into nothingness. And Urahahra could potientally solo

@girugamesh: If logia intangebility is off then why is Kizaru here?

You say that as if it makes him useless. Kizaru can still travel and fight as normal, just that he can be hit by regular attacks. By the way, you'll be happy to know that I'm going to try and take a neutral stance with this to prove I'm not the only person with a shred of sense.

Out of interest, how on earth would Urahara solo?

@saiyan_earthling said:

1. DB team easily.
2. This is where Team 2 may win due to the smarts of Urahara and Aizen

Fair enough, but remember that Urahara wouldn't be there for the prep (he only comes in as a reinforcement).

Kizaru is made of light though which basically meanns even though he can be hit he wont be harmed and Urahara is the man who made the Hogoyoku, he found out how to save Shinji and the other vizards, he created the R&D department for the Soul society and he's smarter than Mayuri, with prep there'ss no telling what kind of device he could make

1. Urahara's best prep feats are toying with Yammy and even then couldn't defeat him nothing suggest he is good enough with prep to defeat anyone in DB.

2. Yama-jii can be harmed while in bankai, you can't disintegrate energy, 1 Kamehameha and he's done.

3. When someone says Logia Intangibility off, it usually implies they can use all their abilities, but without the ability to not be harmed by physical attacks. No matter how you argue it Kizaru isn't intangible here and will not be.

Those aren't Urahara's best prep feats, you know he also created that gate for Ichigo to go to save Rukia.

As for not being able to disintegrate energy here's 2 scans that say otherwise

Energy being shot

Energy being disintegrated

As for your 3 point. Kizaru is made of light, if he's turning off Logia intangibility, he's effectively canceling out Kizaru's powers because in order for Kizaru to be harmed by physical attacks he'd have to be stripped of his light powers

wow ok lol here goes.

1. That wasn't Juha Bach it was someone much much weaker than him, and Yama shattered it via grabbing and squeezing it, not disintegrating, shattering. Something he wouldn't be able to do to a Kamehameha, and are you saying Goku's Kamehameha is comparable to that of a below average to maybe average quincy arrow? If so you are sadly mistaken.

2. That wasn't a prep feat, don't even know how you figured it was, but it wasn't and Urahara didn't even participate past providing them a way into SS.

3. Stop being dense about the Kizaru situation. You know full well Kizaru can be harmed by haki infused physical attacks, as all Logia users can. which is why it's a power independent from his other powers. Drop it, you are never going to convince anyone otherwise, so it's no use arguing it.

@solesamurai said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@solesamurai said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@girugamesh said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

Yama-ji can't be harmed once he releases his bankai and anything his bankai touches is burned away into nothingness. And Urahahra could potientally solo

@girugamesh: If logia intangebility is off then why is Kizaru here?

You say that as if it makes him useless. Kizaru can still travel and fight as normal, just that he can be hit by regular attacks. By the way, you'll be happy to know that I'm going to try and take a neutral stance with this to prove I'm not the only person with a shred of sense.

Out of interest, how on earth would Urahara solo?

@saiyan_earthling said:

1. DB team easily.
2. This is where Team 2 may win due to the smarts of Urahara and Aizen

Fair enough, but remember that Urahara wouldn't be there for the prep (he only comes in as a reinforcement).

Kizaru is made of light though which basically meanns even though he can be hit he wont be harmed and Urahara is the man who made the Hogoyoku, he found out how to save Shinji and the other vizards, he created the R&D department for the Soul society and he's smarter than Mayuri, with prep there'ss no telling what kind of device he could make

1. Urahara's best prep feats are toying with Yammy and even then couldn't defeat him nothing suggest he is good enough with prep to defeat anyone in DB.

2. Yama-jii can be harmed while in bankai, you can't disintegrate energy, 1 Kamehameha and he's done.

3. When someone says Logia Intangibility off, it usually implies they can use all their abilities, but without the ability to not be harmed by physical attacks. No matter how you argue it Kizaru isn't intangible here and will not be.

Those aren't Urahara's best prep feats, you know he also created that gate for Ichigo to go to save Rukia.

As for not being able to disintegrate energy here's 2 scans that say otherwise

Energy being shot

Energy being disintegrated

As for your 3 point. Kizaru is made of light, if he's turning off Logia intangibility, he's effectively canceling out Kizaru's powers because in order for Kizaru to be harmed by physical attacks he'd have to be stripped of his light powers

wow ok lol here goes.

1. That wasn't Juha Bach it was someone much much weaker than him, and Yama shattered it via grabbing and squeezing it, not disintegrating, shattering. Something he wouldn't be able to do to a Kamehameha, and are you saying Goku's Kamehameha is comparable to that of a below average to maybe average quincy arrow? If so you are sadly mistaken.

2. That wasn't a prep feat, don't even know how you figured it was, but it wasn't and Urahara didn't even participate past providing them a way into SS.

3. Stop being dense about the Kizaru situation. You know full well Kizaru can be harmed by haki infused physical attacks, as all Logia users can. which is why it's a power independent from his other powers. Drop it, you are never going to convince anyone otherwise, so it's no use arguing it.

Owned so hard. Good Job man you get a follow

Imma keep this really brief so's I can get back to me Halo 4. Roshi and Goku rush in and murder stomp everyone but Aizen via speed blitz. Aizen gets knocked out. If anyone is still alive after that, they die to Piccolo's giant nuke energy wave thingy that he's been taking like 2 seconds to charge up. Aizen is unconscious, everyone else is dead. Roshi reads Aizen's mind and learns of his powers. They take his Zanpakuto from him, wait for him to wake up, then Roshi hypnotizes him into a stupor. Roshi, Goku and Piccolo then guard Aizen while everyone else gathers the Dragon Balls. They use the Dragon Balls to BFR powerless hypnotized Aizen to the Dead Zone.

Do I get a cookie?

@Laurcus said:

Imma keep this really brief so's I can get back to me Halo 4. Roshi and Goku rush in and murder stomp everyone but Aizen via speed blitz. Aizen gets knocked out. If anyone is still alive after that, they die to Piccolo's giant nuke energy wave thingy that he's been taking like 2 seconds to charge up. Aizen is unconscious, everyone else is dead. Roshi reads Aizen's mind and learns of his powers. They take his Zanpakuto from him, wait for him to wake up, then Roshi hypnotizes him into a stupor. Roshi, Goku and Piccolo then guard Aizen while everyone else gathers the Dragon Balls. They use the Dragon Balls to BFR powerless hypnotized Aizen to the Dead Zone.

Do I get a cookie?

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@solesamurai said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@solesamurai said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

@girugamesh said:

@redbird3rdboywonder said:

Yama-ji can't be harmed once he releases his bankai and anything his bankai touches is burned away into nothingness. And Urahahra could potientally solo

@girugamesh: If logia intangebility is off then why is Kizaru here?

You say that as if it makes him useless. Kizaru can still travel and fight as normal, just that he can be hit by regular attacks. By the way, you'll be happy to know that I'm going to try and take a neutral stance with this to prove I'm not the only person with a shred of sense.

Out of interest, how on earth would Urahara solo?

@saiyan_earthling said:

1. DB team easily.
2. This is where Team 2 may win due to the smarts of Urahara and Aizen

Fair enough, but remember that Urahara wouldn't be there for the prep (he only comes in as a reinforcement).

Kizaru is made of light though which basically meanns even though he can be hit he wont be harmed and Urahara is the man who made the Hogoyoku, he found out how to save Shinji and the other vizards, he created the R&D department for the Soul society and he's smarter than Mayuri, with prep there'ss no telling what kind of device he could make

1. Urahara's best prep feats are toying with Yammy and even then couldn't defeat him nothing suggest he is good enough with prep to defeat anyone in DB.

2. Yama-jii can be harmed while in bankai, you can't disintegrate energy, 1 Kamehameha and he's done.

3. When someone says Logia Intangibility off, it usually implies they can use all their abilities, but without the ability to not be harmed by physical attacks. No matter how you argue it Kizaru isn't intangible here and will not be.

Those aren't Urahara's best prep feats, you know he also created that gate for Ichigo to go to save Rukia.

As for not being able to disintegrate energy here's 2 scans that say otherwise

Energy being shot

Energy being disintegrated

As for your 3 point. Kizaru is made of light, if he's turning off Logia intangibility, he's effectively canceling out Kizaru's powers because in order for Kizaru to be harmed by physical attacks he'd have to be stripped of his light powers

wow ok lol here goes.

1. That wasn't Juha Bach it was someone much much weaker than him, and Yama shattered it via grabbing and squeezing it, not disintegrating, shattering. Something he wouldn't be able to do to a Kamehameha, and are you saying Goku's Kamehameha is comparable to that of a below average to maybe average quincy arrow? If so you are sadly mistaken.

2. That wasn't a prep feat, don't even know how you figured it was, but it wasn't and Urahara didn't even participate past providing them a way into SS.

3. Stop being dense about the Kizaru situation. You know full well Kizaru can be harmed by haki infused physical attacks, as all Logia users can. which is why it's a power independent from his other powers. Drop it, you are never going to convince anyone otherwise, so it's no use arguing it.

1. *clears throat* The guy who Yama killed was Royd who was NOT weaker than Juha Bach since he can completely copy someone's power and memories, but no where did it ever state that he was weaker than Juha Bach, Juha Bach stated that only he could seal Yama-ji's bankai so read it again. Also Yama did NOT grab it and squeeze it either or else it would've been shown above, Yama merely raised his sword toward it.

2. It was a prep feat since he had expected Ichigo to come to him with the notion of saving Rukia, I mean he didn't just have it lying around for no reason.

3. Are you that dense to not have been able to understand what I meant. Yes Kizaru can be harmed by Haki infused physical attacks but the DB characters don't have it now do they. NO. I was pointing out the fact that if Logia intangibility is off, then why is he here since in order for it to be off you'd have to cancel out his powers since his body is made of light. I mean you can't say logia intangebility is off and but then say his other powers work, since his powers are the reason he has logia intangibility in the first place.

@PokemonDefender: Stop following me around to antagonize me or I will inform a mod

You cannot be this dense, I'm seriously dying of laughter at how fail this post was

1. It clearly shows Yama grabbing the arrow in the scan, Royd was very much weaker, sense he lost to Yama and The Real Juha murdered Yama almost instantly

2. You obviously have no idea what prep is, Say we knew each other in real life, and decided we wanted to go to Coachella and you didn't have a way to get there, and I went out and rented a car anticipating you asking me for a ride there. That is the exact same thing as what Urahara did, he essentially gave Ichigo a way into SS and nothing more, not to mention it is nowhere near as good of a feat as His Prep for Yammy which is his best and virtually only real prep feat.

3. I understand exactly what you mean, and it's a very ignorant way of looking at how powers work, Logia intangibility is off, and if You want it your way, I guess Kizaru gets raped since he doesn't have powers. I mean that's how they work and everything. derp.

Master Roshi could solo most if not all.

Ichigo, Yammamoto and Aizen should win this handily given their destructive power and speed against the end of Dragon Ball iterations of the characters. The dragon ball crew simply lacks the durability to be tanking their sword swings or worse that heat put out by Yammamoto's bankai.

I'd say the Sage of the Six Paths could solo too given how his heritage seems to give people soul jacking / gravity control abilities - but he doesn't have feats outside the moon around the planet - lacks any showings as for how he did it.

Now cue the Dragon Ball fanboys that disagree and blow the characters to ridiculous proportions. Quite literally, the final fight between Piccolo Jr and Goku was just as lack luster as most of the fights are in the series where knee strikes from characters physically weaker than Sage Mode Naruto severely harmed the cast, let alone half the damage the lot of these characters can put out.

And I'd like to lawl at the idea that Roshi and Goku speed blitz a bunch of people they can't physically even harm, how Roshi is going to read Aizen's mind to learn all his abilities and how Piccolo Jr's nuke - that wasn't anything comparable in scale or actual power - is going to blow everyone to hell here.

The DB cast isn't winning this when their opponents can swing their swords at them and cut them in half from miles away. That's way beyond their ability to tank given their showings throughout the series indicate they can't at all. Naruto could nuke them.

If we're going to put out idiotic arguments though "the sage of six paths teleports a moon above team Dragon Ball and crushes them" - sorta like how Madara did with his asteroids. That's more plausible than the nonsense being said in this thread.

I think DB team still has better combat speed and destructive power.

Roshi was fast enough to have entire fight scene within one second, he exchanged punches and kicks, they were spiting on each other, then they spent some time thinking, than they had a short conversation, then they played a game etc. and Roshi did all this while he was still holding back. Normal people were unable to see their movements.

• After being shot at, Roshi was able to turn around and catch 9 bullets.
• 

Roshi was able to create many after images

Roshi moved his hand so fast it created a wind so strong it blowed away a 70-80kg heavy superhuman and smashed him into a wall.

Kid Goku (21. budokai) , and Namu who were both slower then Roshi were able to jump several km high in the air, a feat which requires a movement of legs much faster than the speed of sound.

• Bora who was slower than Roshi was able to trow goku and yacharobe above clouds, which means he can move his hand faster than sound.
• 

• Tao Pai Pai was on pair with Roshi, or slightly faster, and he throw a stone pillar 200+ km away a feat which would require massively hypersonic movement of hand.

From all of this I think it is safe to assume that Roshi is much faster than the sound.

Kid Goku on 22 budokai was so much faster than Roshi, that Roshi was unable to see him

Then Goku drank mystic water and became many times faster than before.

Tien, who was on pair with Goku before he drank the water, was so slow he was unable to kick Drum, and Goku, after water, was so fast he speed blitzed him. He also became as fast as young king Piccolo, while before he was slower than even the old Piccolo.

And Tien was unable to see his movements.

Yet even this Goku was to slow to even touch mr Popo, and mr Popo was so fast Goku was unable to see his movements.

Mr Popo also stated how he can move faster than lightning.

23rd budokai Goku was so fast not even Kami who is much faster than Popo was able to see him or Piccolo while they were fightning at top speed.

Destructive Power

Roshi destroyed the moon

King Piccolo stated he will destroy 1/43 of the earth

Piccolo Jr destroyed the moon, without even powering up

This Piccolo is from the beginning of DBZ, only slightly more powerful than the one from the end of DB.

They also have mountain, island and city busting feats.

I wouldn't say it is a stomp since HTS characters do have some clear advantages over DB characters, but combat speed and destructive power is the most important thing in battle, and that's why I think DB characters would win this probably 9/10 times.

I'm thinking dragon ball z, goku end of series, super sayan 5 hahaha no chance.

@solesamurai: Umm...Dude just for clarification Yamaji only had one arm during that fight and it was clearly disintegrated when it touched his sword which he clearly had in his hand..............

@CerberusPrime3k said:

@solesamurai: Umm...Dude just for clarification Yamaji only had one arm during that fight and it was clearly disintegrated when it touched his sword which he clearly had in his hand..............

It looks like he grabbed the arrow to me but it doesn't matter anyway. Anyone who thinks a Kamehameha is comparable in power to an average quincy arrow is either biased or doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.

@solesamurai: The point he was trying to make is that energy attacks will have no effect on Yamaji while he has this form activated not that the quicy arrow was powerful as the Kamehameha.

@UltimateHero0406 said:

Aizen is a huge factor. If his shikai works, then its game over. If he gets taken out, then its game over for everyone else.

He isn't. Most of DB fighters can sense ki.

@brick909 said:

I'm thinking dragon ball z, goku end of series, super sayan 5 hahaha no chance.

Read the OP, there won't be any super saiyans here.

@CerberusPrime3k said:

@solesamurai: The point he was trying to make is that energy attacks will have no effect on Yamaji while he has this form activated not that the quicy arrow was powerful as the Kamehameha.

I understood his point, mines was DBZ princple of energy much different and much more powerful than Bleaches. Not mention The actual Juha Bach murdered Yama-jii immediately. Completely debunking his whole"Yama can't be harmed in Bankai" Argument. The fact that a Kamehameha is vastly more powerful than any arrow any Quincy could use, only makes it that much more likely Yama will be killed if he gets hit with one. Then you get into the individual Mangas principle of energy, I doubt a quincy arrow would last long enough to even break through the atmosphere let alone hit the moon where as kamehameha is fully capable of it. The more you begin to break down their principle of energy the more you start to see that a Kamehameha would work against Yama.

fake and real juha were just as strong as each other. the only difference was juha could steal bankai and royd couldn't. he only mudered yama so quick because he used yamas bankai on him. with all juhas memories and skills/powers he was juha-bankai stealing. and you know he knew even with his power and skill royd would die, yama said 2x he had a complete disregard for his subordanits. he just wanted to kill yamamoto himself for revenge

Lol is this some sort oof spite at least put saiyan saga or pre super saiyan frieZa saga characters

@imperiex96 said:

fake and real juha were just as strong as each other. the only difference was juha could steal bankai and royd couldn't. he only mudered yama so quick because he used yamas bankai on him. with all juhas memories and skills/powers he was juha-bankai stealing. and you know he knew even with his power and skill royd would die, yama said 2x he had a complete disregard for his subordanits. he just wanted to kill yamamoto himself for revenge

Wow. That's one huge bump..

@girugamesh: one question : can DBZ characters sense HST character's energy like they do normally? beause i think they can. after all Ki is life force, that exist in every living being.

i don't see HST winning even with prep, and even with illusion casts. DBZ characters are waaay too fast and waaaaay too strong, we are talking here about casual moonbusters and at least microsecond reaction vs city & mountain busters and less fast reaction.

i'd like to add the following as my opinon on reflex speed which Superman fanboys claim that DBZ have not FTL reflexes and are slow compared to Superman. i'd like to have an objetive opinon about this as well. (no bias)

...

lack of quantifications is the biggest DBZ problem, and that handicap a lot DBZ fans when they try to estimate DBZ reflex speed, and they probably end up accepting that DBZ are maybe slow or have only hypersonic reaction, which is not the case really.

i think i can provide a minimum quantification to DBZ reflex speed. and i won't use PL which is debatable that provide proportional speed as it do to raw power, i will go only by feats of speedblitz.

the speed of sight is 0.05 second, if someone can speedblitz a normal human his time reaction will be at least 0.05 second and i say at least, because that's the minimum time frame of an eye to perceive something.

the quickest kick ever recorded until now has time reaction of 0.3 second. that means that the quickest kick of a normal human is 6 times slower than sight. if someone has to blitz a normal human he should be 6 times faster than normal to achieve the least least speed for a kick blitz.

my calculations will be based on direct feats and no powerscaling, no PL and no hyperbols, just canon feats, but my calculations won't give the right speed of DBZ characters, it will give a speed less than the real speed of DBZ characters, but at least it's better to have a minimum quantification to be based on, than actual assumptions. as i said my calculations will give speed less than DBZ real speed, because of those points :

• i will be based only on speedblitz feats, but DBZ speed growth has also happened in other feats where there is no blitz.
• i will be using the lowest speed of blitz, which is the limit of time frame sight.
• i will be using the speed of a kick which is normally faster than jumping, running and moving entire body that is necessary for speedblitz

with those points as basis for my calculation, i will be really mean with DBZ characters and i will be lowballing their reaction speed.

okey, now we know, as i explained, that for someone to blitz a normal person he must be faster than his sight, meaning he should be 6 times faster than normal human. if character A can blitz character B, that means at least A is 6 times faster than B. that means if B has time reaction of 0.3 second, A will have time reaction of 0.05 second, if character C can blitz A, then C has time reaction of 0.05 / 6 = 0.008333 second.

now let's start by Krilin and Roshi, they showed impressive feat of time reaction, where in 1 second, they moved several steps, exchanged sevral punches and kicks, exchanged words, and stopped to think for 1/5 second, it would be save to estimate their time reaction at 0.01 second.

Roshi was able after that to blitz Krilin, that makes him have time reaction at least of 0.001666 second.

at 22nd Budokai, Goku moved so fast Roshi couldn't see him, that makes Goku have at least time reaction of 0.00027777 second

Ten Chin Han who was equal to Goku at 22nd Budokai in speed, was not able to see Goku's movement at King Piccolo saga. that makes Goku has at least time reaction of0.00004269 second

Yet even this Goku was too slow to even touch mr Popo, and mr Popo was so fast Goku was unable to see his movements. that makes Mr. Popo at least with time reaction of 7.716x10^(-6) second

23rd budokai Goku and Piccolo were so fast not even Kami who is much faster than Popo was able to see them. that means Goku and Piccolo had time reaction better than1.286x10^(-6) second

Raditz was blitzing both Goku and Piccolo at the beginning of DBZ. that make Raditz with time reaction better than 2.1433x10^(-7) second

Nappa was much faster than Raditz, but Goku after King Kai's training was able easily to blitz Nappa, that makes Goku without Kaioken has time reaction better than3.5722x10^(-8) second

Vegeta who surpassed Goku's speed without Kaioken, after he recovered from his fight with Goku, had became faster, but was easily blitzed by Burter. that makes Burter have time reaction better than 5.9537x10^(-9) second

Goku who was training under 100G gravity became so fast, that even without kaioken, he easily blitzed Burter. that make Goku have time reaction better than9.90229x10^(-10) second

Piccolo after King Kai's training and Nail's power up, had become at least as equal as Goku. when he fought 3rd form Frieza, Piccolo stated that his speciality is speed, and Goku stated he can't beat Freiza at that level with his initial Namek level. and Frieza blitzed Piccolo, that makes 3rd form Frieza have time reaction better than1.6538x10^(-10) second

Gohan matched 3rd form Frieza in power and speed after getting angry, but he and all the others including Vegeta (who powered up again and became the strongest of them), were blitzed by Frieza 4th and final form, that makes Frieza at final from have time reaction better than2.7563x10^(-11) second

Trunks moved so fast to dodge Frieza's attack, Frieza didn't see him getting behind him far a way on a hill. that makes Tranks have time reaction better than4.59393x10^(-12) second

Android 17 is stronger than Trunks, and was blitzed by Imperfect Cell, that makes Imperfet Cell have time reaction better than7.6565x10^(-13) second

now, skipping to gohan vs perfect Cell, Gohan was able to blitz Perfect Cell easily, that makes Gohan at SSJ2 have time reaction better than 1.27609x10^(-13) second

so just at the end of Cell Saga, SSJ2 Gohan had far beyond 0.1 picosecond reaction time. and if we keep going to Buu saga, time reaction will be greater. and just to remind you, that this is not the real time reaction, beause the real one is far far beyond this. and let's note that i ignored the increase of reaction speed between Mr. Popo and Kami, between Raditz and Nappa, between Goku and Vegeta, between first appearance Vegeta and 1st power up Vegeta, between first Namek appearance Goku and first form Fieza, between power up Piccolo and first form Frieza, between 3rd form Frieza and 3rd power up Vegeta, between Trunks and Android 17, between Imperfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell, ...etc. if those increases were taken by consideration the result time reaction should be much much better than 0.1 picosecond

the likes of Superman, Superboy, Gladiator, Hyperion...etc have nanosecond reaction, it's clear now that DBZ fighters are very fast and can not just keep up with the likes of Superman but even surpass them in reaction speed.

also, let's note that 0.1 picosecond is the time required for light to travel distance equivalent to the width of a human hair. and width of a human hair is insignificant compared to blitz distances. that means, just at the end of Cell Saga, DBZ achieved reflex speed beyond hundreds of time FTL.

sources :

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-fastest-known-kick-and-punch

http://theconversation.edu.au/hold-your-horses-news-just-in-on-the-speed-of-sight-760

http://www.wonderquest.com/sight-whale-tern.htm

http://www.mangapanda.com/105-3061-1/dragon-ball/chapter-412.html

DBZ team dies trying to melee Bankai Yamamoto.

Bleach does not counts as they are OUT of the HST

Toriko can arguably beat kid goku soundly