Dr. Strange vs The Wizard Shazam

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#55 Edited By SevanGrim

@beatboks1: id like to believe that you have all of Shazam and Spectre's appearances and showings comitted to memory, or you went through your (what, 1000+ strong if the numbers you gave above are to be believed) collection of comics yesterday so you could present me those numbers... but its a little tough to swallow.
We are currently playing ping pong with this subject. You honestly believe that Strange could bring something to the table that the Wizard hasnt seen in his 9000 years of doing exactly what Strange has in his human lifetime. You honestly dont notice that Shazam has never truly fought anybody full out on page. And you still honestly believe that you can simply compare DC and MArvel magic feats.... even though the very basis' that they are founded on are completely different.
we could go back and forth forever. But as i know i said at some point before, feats in both companies are soooo different when it comes to magic, that the only way to really gauge two magic characters is to use the magic rules consistent across all of magics in the comics medium.
but i know you dont hear me. The feats system is a flawed one that every fan boy turns to to guarantee that the most popular/overused characters always win because they have more feats than the background characters who were designed to be stronger. Bill Parker and Stan Lee could publish a book saying the Wizard was stronger, and you would debate them due to their lack of feats.

12 years ago

Susanoo

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#56 Edited By Susanoo

@beatboks1:
He didn't listen to the most simplist of answers... Classic Strange = Dues ex Machina and plot powered.

12 years ago

Susanoo

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#57 Edited By Susanoo

@Amazingoctus said:

@Susanoo: If it's for the plot then it's P.I.S. and anything can happen, then it means nothing here. Spiderman could take on Living Tribunal and Eternity and win. Dr. Strange (classic) is powerful though, so I am in no way trying to "bash" him or make him seem weak.

sigh.... it's CIS for Strange. Back to the topic, Strange kos Shazam with a spell.

12 years ago

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#58 Edited By SevanGrim

@beatboks1: cool. I said the rock could be brought to a place, you said it couldnt, then you showed me a scan of the rock going to A HUNDRED DIFFERENT DIMENSIONS. Soooo.... it can go anyplace but earth? I never said it wasnt SET in another dimension. I only said it could be BROUGHT to earth aka another dimension. Lets Recap: appearing in the skies of a hundred dimensions means it could appear in the sky of ours. thanks buddy.

As for Spectre, you didnt read my post did you? I said, and let me cut and paste this sucker for you:

" His limits are on when he is allowed to use his powers, and what the standard amount of power he can use is. But he has often tapped into greater power for short amounts of time. When he destroyed the rock, Spectre cut Shazams flow of magic, something no one but a being directly fueled by god like Spectre could do. no one else has ever been able to just stop someones magic, and no one else ever will. Why would he do that if he could have beaten him easily with his power as your suggesting? The answer is he couldnt. More than likely, SHazam could have destroyed him. "

and then you showed me a nifty scan of the Wizard with his powers beating Spectre's ass. if im not mistaken. that is RIGHT before Spectre cut off his power, meaning he did it because, and this is the kicker here, WITH HIS POWER, WITH THE ROCK OF ETERNITY, SHAZAM IS A BADASS. And without the rules of magic that are actually restraining him? (is that what you meant at the end of your post? that there would be no rules of magic?)

...right? isnt that what i've been saying? yes. and then you said he couldnt bring the rock cuz the rock doesnt move. right? and then you showed me a picture of the rock moving. yeah, thats there too....

but before you contradicted the holly hell out of yourself, you called me an idiot. Personal Name calling. Before you wrote and scaned an entire post of accidental contradictions, and after you tried to BS an approximate number of appearances and showings that you later rectified cuz you realized how bs it sounded.

this will probably draw some ridicule from the peanut gallery, but I had 9 teachers try to draft me from wrestling onto the debate team in highschool mr. 40+ year old comics collector sir. why? becuase i always chooses a clear stand point to argue clearly with logic and conviction.And i tend to have a better understanding of both sides of the argument than my oponent. You seem to have allot of facts and scans at your disposal that i dont, but i actually have an understanding of the differences between companies, and the rules of magic consistent in fables and mythologies and (yes) comics. Rules that people who created magic characters and wrote magic stories tended to have respect for.
im not gonna call you names. i like this high road im on...

@Susanoo said:

@beatboks1: He didn't listen to the most simplist of answers... Classic Strange = Dues ex Machina and plot powered.

most simplist? your an idiot.
lol just kidding man. :P

12 years ago

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#59 Edited By SevanGrim

@beatboks1: ps there is something i did on purpose in that posy cuz im eager to see you argue it. Have fun.

12 years ago

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#60 Edited By SevanGrim

@beatboks1:
ok firstly, the rock fell because Shazam's power was broken. Shazam's power holds the rock there, and without it, it is not held there. Seeing how Shazam controls his power, and it holds the rock in place, Logic dictates that he could let loose the rock and re tether it where ever he wanted.
and i laugh rather heartily at your whole "one and only in 70 years" thing there. How many times has Strange taken bolts from TOAA? was it more than once? or should we decide that it doesnt prove your point and you dont understand things? I didnt know your silly feats system had a "Picks and Choosies" clause. lol.

second: i am fairly certain Spectre is just as powerful if not more so without a host. The reason he needs a host is to keep him grounded. In Infinite Crisis, he tried to fight being hosted by Crispus, and actually compared it to a prison (one of the trades i always keep nearby is IC, so im actually looking at it right now). Without a host, he is easier to fool and quicker to bring the wrath. but i dont think its ever been said that he's weaker without a host.

3rd: the Wizard didnt need prep to beat the Spectre in his place of power. He needed time to make sure all of his power was allocated in the right places. Its not like how batman makes contingency plans. In the Rock, The Wizard had everything he needed. he was just being cautious. And it was more than enough. The problem was that he couldnt actually kill the Spectre. he cannot die. Especially when he's not connected to a host. But Spectre laying smoldering on the ground means that Shazam beat him... even if it was only for a moment becuase Spectre cant actually be beaten as long as God is alive. which plays nicely into the next point:

In DC, there is no power above god. MArvel has long decided that blasphemy was the way to go, but in DC God is still the end all be all, he just doesnt interfere directly in anything. But at the same time, people who he has given power too (Spectre and Eclipso) can do things with his power that others cant. Shazam's rock is the TOUCHSTONE of magic (the exact term used in Brave New World #1 when describing it, which i also have right in front of me), which means its the standard or criterion by which magic is judged or recognized in the DCU. It took allot of extra power for Spectre to cut the rocks magic. And that would explain why almost immediately afterwards, he was bound to Crispus. Because he was using too much power unfettered.

Also, while we are on the subject of the Rock, did Strange ever cut off the power to the Eye of Agga-whatsit called? Or the Infinity gauntlet? Or any epically powered person or item like like the WIzard or the Rock? or did he do it to some lesser person? Even if Strange can cut peoples powers, i doubt he can do it to people or items on the higher scales.

Either there are rules to the magic or there are not. This thing where one person is massively restrained and the other isnt cant fly. Thats like cutting off batmans arms and legs and putting him in a fight with Captain America. Marvel has never had rules like DC has, and Strange's power reduction wasnt explained like the implementation of DC's rules onto the Wizard. Strange was/is just over powered. So in this fight, either they are in someplace with rules (DC) or without (Marvel or some random other world). But saying One is subject to highly restricting rules and the other is free of any is bull.

i hope separating the paragraphs like i did helps you see all my responses to what i hope were all of your points. Now on to the last bit.

I know what 4 decades means. I said 40+ years because there was no way for me to know when you started collecting comics. Maybe when you were 5? maybe when you were 20? all i knew for certain was that you had been alive for 40 years... thus the 40+. That means any age after 40. Maybe that wasnt clear. also, Chooses was obviously a typo. And even if it wasnt, this isnt a paper for a class or a memo for my boss. Its a post on an internet forum with an 40+... im sorry, almost 53 (so... 52? why didnt you just say 52?) year old man who's already deemed me an idiot. As long as i dont start typing "he done didnt's" and "who dat der be's" i think im ok.
Everyones powers are limited. Im sure there are just as many times Strange said "i cant do that" or "its not within my powers to blah blah blah". Its what magic users do. Its so the story doesn't just have the magicians use a spell to end the story. Its exactly the same as removing Superman or Thor from a story so theres actual anxiety. You want to quote what has been said many times? Hows about looking into the last paragraph of Strange's page here on comicvine. He's a deus ex machina. half of his feats are Bs simply to progress the story, which are contradicted as another story requires it. But im sure thats also covered under the "picks and choosies" clause.

...and im well aware Choosies is not a word.

12 years ago

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#61 Edited By Amazingoctus

I found evidence to prove Shazam could go toe-to-toe with CLASSIC Strange. I hate myself for entering my own debate but Shazam's power needs to be noted

I will start with some basics that I think most of us know. The Spectre has been argued to be on par with The Living Tribunal, who is so powerful that beings like Galactus have to basically beg just to TALK to him, and is also above CLASSIC Strange.

Shazam did not have much prep time for the fight against The Spectre, so he could not have got much more powerful. We all saw what happened in that fight, that's right, Shazam beat the crap out of The Spectre up until the end. He matched The Spectre for a moment. This would be a feat, and put him far above cosmic powerhouses like Galactus.

One other major thing. When The Spectre got back up, he had to use the magic of The Rock of Eternity to put him back at full power. This leads me to believe, that had Shazam pushed a little harder, a little longer, he could have destroyed The Spectre and The Spectre could not have used The Rock. This would not have to mean that Shazam was more powerful than The Spectre, but just a tiny bit below him. So he is a tiny bit weaker than The Spectre, who is equal to The Living Tribunal, who is above CLASSIC Strange, but how far above I do not know.

All of this would mean, that without prep CLASSIC Strange would be just barely above Shazam and with prep Shazam would be AT LEAST on par with him if not above him.

12 years ago

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#62 Edited By Lance Bastro

@Amazingoctus said:

I found evidence to prove Shazam could go toe-to-toe with CLASSIC Strange. I hate myself for entering my own debate but Shazam's power needs to be noted

I will start with some basics that I think most of us know. The Spectre has been argued to be on par with The Living Tribunal, who is so powerful that beings like Galactus have to basically beg just to TALK to him, and is also above CLASSIC Strange.

Shazam did not have much prep time for the fight against The Spectre, so he could not have got much more powerful. We all saw what happened in that fight, that's right, Shazam beat the crap out of The Spectre up until the end. He matched The Spectre for a moment. This would be a feat, and put him far above cosmic powerhouses like Galactus.

One other major thing. When The Spectre got back up, he had to use the magic of The Rock of Eternity to put him back at full power. This leads me to believe, that had Shazam pushed a little harder, a little longer, he could have destroyed The Spectre and The Spectre could not have used The Rock. This would not have to mean that Shazam was more powerful than The Spectre, but just a tiny bit below him. So he is a tiny bit weaker than The Spectre, who is equal to The Living Tribunal, who is above CLASSIC Strange, but how far above I do not know.

All of this would mean, that without prep CLASSIC Strange would be just barely above Shazam and with prep Shazam would be AT LEAST on par with him if not above him.

not true... classic strange does not need prep, he is a walking de-ex machina character. he only prepp-ed for two events, and that was for shuma and zom... but during those days, shuma and zom were a bit above the living tribunal at that point because living tribunal had a problem with "being corrupted", that he needed to send others to do his bidding. like after the events of zom, living tribunal had a duel with an un-prepped strange. strange had no idea that the living tribunal was PLANNING to destroy earth due to the contamination of zom's evil essence. the living tribunal ignored strange and strange had no other choice but to fight the living tribunal to save earth. after the fight, the living tribunal accepted strange's wishes to protect earth, but the living tribunal warned dr. strange that, "you must hurry because i have not the power to stop the spread of the contamination of zom ANY LONGER".... dr. strange seeks help from another VERY POWER entity called nebulos who uses a staff that has the ability to contain zom's evil, but then nebulos ended up fighting BOTH classic strange and the living tribunal at the same time. nebulos lost, and strange saved the universe and living tribunal spared the earth...

the 2nd time living tribunal got into dr. strange's affairs was after the shuma gorath saga, where the living tribunal planned an assassination ploy to get rid of dr. strange. (dr. strange was so powerful he was breaking the cosmic balance of the multiverse). the living tribunal sent lord chaos and master order to stop him thus creating the in-betweener... in-betweener lost... the 2nd time in-betweener fought strange; in-betweener as backed up by the powers of the living tribunal.... he still lost.

shazam is most likely in par to ancient one.

ancient one is dr. strange's master.....

but... dr. strange surpassed the ancient one.

so the dr. strange must be a step above the ancient one thus being a step above shazam.

12 years ago

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#63 Edited By Amazingoctus

@Lance Bastro: I didn't say anything about Strange having prep. How did you get that in there? In an actual battle though, Dr Strange could only beat The Living Tribunal due to P.I.S.. Shazam's battle with The Spectre was one of his only, so it would show the power he actually holds, enough to easily surpass Galactus combined to himself as many times as one would wish to number. I actually question that statement though, because you showed a picture where The Ancient One defeated Eternity, who is more powerful than CLASSIC Strange and was about to prove it. You saying he is on par with The Ancient One WOULD make him more powerful than CLASSIC Strange, and many things happen in the Marvel Universe. For example, if The Living Tribunal fought Strange in a calm form he would lose and make Strange feel more powerful than he actually is by saying things like "Impossible! No one human can surpass me," but if it were to happen years later and Strange was still as powerful as he once was and The Living Tribunal was angry, he would throw Strange around like he was playing.

I haven't seen The Ancient One too many times, so I would not know but if it was a fight and The Ancient One lost, it is because it was allowed. If The Ancient One Stated that Strange was more powerful than him, it was because he was allowing Strange to seem more powerful than he is. Then we can break these if's down even more. IF The Ancient One told other powerful beings that Strange could surpass him, it is because he did not want them to hurt Strange, so they would back off. If he told Strange that it is because he knows Strange cares, and would be careful with his powers.

12 years ago

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#64 Edited By Amazingoctus

Oh and I have to go back to an old statement. "Shazam is close to the Anti-Monitor."

Shazam is close to The Spectre as I have already argued, but not as powerful. If that was Shazam instead of The Spectre, he would not have overflowed and might have won

12 years ago

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#65 Edited By Lance Bastro

@Amazingoctus said:

@Lance Bastro: I didn't say anything about Strange having prep. How did you get that in there? In an actual battle though, Dr Strange could only beat The Living Tribunal due to P.I.S.. Shazam's battle with The Spectre was one of his only, so it would show the power he actually holds, enough to easily surpass Galactus combined to himself as many times as one would wish to number. I actually question that statement though, because you showed a picture where The Ancient One defeated Eternity, who is more powerful than CLASSIC Strange and was about to prove it. You saying he is on par with The Ancient One WOULD make him more powerful than CLASSIC Strange, and many things happen in the Marvel Universe. For example, if The Living Tribunal fought Strange in a calm form he would lose and make Strange feel more powerful than he actually is by saying things like "Impossible! No one human can surpass me," but if it were to happen years later and Strange was still as powerful as he once was and The Living Tribunal was angry, he would throw Strange around like he was playing.

I haven't seen The Ancient One too many times, so I would not know but if it was a fight and The Ancient One lost, it is because it was allowed. If The Ancient One Stated that Strange was more powerful than him, it was because he was allowing Strange to seem more powerful than he is. Then we can break these if's down even more. IF The Ancient One told other powerful beings that Strange could surpass him, it is because he did not want them to hurt Strange, so they would back off. If he told Strange that it is because he knows Strange cares, and would be careful with his powers.

sorry i confused prep wrapped on shazam with strange. i'm not deny that shazam can not defeat galactus, but shazam will have a difficult time fighting living tribunal... the point of my post was that living tribunal had to fight dr. strange with spells... that means living tribunal knew that his power alone wasn't enough to handle the power's of the Principalities... and also the point that the living tribunal prepped against strange so yes. p.i.s was involved, but the p.i.s part was not of the differences of power level but out of negotiation.

i believe that shazam is supposed to be the embodiment of magic in the DC continuity. but in marvel; the embodiments of magic is power derived from extra-dimensional forces. namely called the principalities... the principalities are very closely tied to dr. strange hence why the cosmic compass and living tribunal can't really defeat strange (if de-ex machina if on). so the question now, is if shazam's magic greater than the principalities?

about the ancient one, you have a good point... ancient one has saved strange on several occasions similar to that matter. i remember strange forcefully merging himself with eternity once, but the ancient one layed the foot down on eternity.

12 years ago

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#66 Edited By Lance Bastro

@Amazingoctus: and the problem with the spectre is that his powers fluctuate frequently. this is unlike the living tribunal, who's powers are always constant. about the anti-monitor, there was a battle a while back about shuma or some other kind of magical entity vs anti-monitor stating that anti-monitor's power is not as powerful as i seems due to the nature of how the DC universe is created (1 universe broken into different smaller realities = multiverse) differ from how the nature of how marvel's universe is created (1 omniverse - many extra dimensions - one of them is the multiverse - 1 multiverse houses many of alternate universe)

12 years ago

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#67 Edited By Amazingoctus

@Lance Bastro: I have trouble believing Shazam could beat The LIving Tribunal, but after his showing against The Living Tribunal's DC counterpart I believe he could last for a while. It would be different, very different from his fight with The Spectre. I'm not sure if Shazam's magic is greater than the Principalities, but using it to do an incredible amount of damage to someone as powerful as The Spectre, and the incredible amount of time someone as weak as him (as everyone is trying to make him seem anyway) could last, would have to prove it would be formidable against The Pricipalities

12 years ago

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#68 Edited By SevanGrim

@beatboks1:

1.) Rules. In DC there are rules. To randomly heal a boy who's injuries were part of the natural order of the world would fall under dark magic. For someone as powerful as the Wizard to dip into dark magics, there are major repercussions, as those in charge of dark magic are the very people he is fighting against 24/7. Its a basic magic rule that even Marvel uses when they arent ignoring things for stories sake. Just becuase the Wizard says he cant do something doesn't mean its not within his power. more often than not It means he has a responsibility to the laws of magic not to do something as silly and whimsical as make one mortals life happier.
And the rock was created purely by Shazam's design. It wasnt already there and he made it his home. He got the pieces of heaven and hell, made the rock, and placed the rock himself. And of course he always brought people to it. WHY THE HELL would he summon the massive magical rock to earth just to talk to someone? When its placement more than likely serves several important purposes? Only for the most dire of circumstances. But to suggest that he cant move the thing he created and placed when he was younger and weaker is silly. To further prove my point, i dont know if you remember what happened to the DC magic community after the rock fell and the Wizard died, but it went to shit. People lost power, demons gained power, and all the magical characters were always complaining about how bad things were. You know why? I'll give you two guesses.... The importance of the rock staying where it is was the whole reason is said in my very first post that the wizard would have to pull some BS to bring the rock to the fight, AND why i said he would win if he was in the magically unruly Marvel universe. In DC, the Wizard is fighting other forces all the time to keep balance. His power is always divided (even if he isnt physically shooting it out with them). Moving the rock opens the world up to chaos.
You keep misinterpreting following the rules for weakness, which may explain your entire stance on this.

2.)The HOST loses his hosting position when he decides not to follow the rules. But the Spectre doesnt get weaker. There have been a couple of times that i can remember where Spectre went on unbound to a host just as he would if he did. But once he starts getting all willy-nilly, he gets cut back. The Spectre's rage and free will is withheld by a host, but there is no evidence to support that his power is.

3.) what did the wizard do? did he put c4 on the sealing? Set a trip wire? Everything the Wizard did was within his power already. Everything he used was already in the rock. So PERHAPS when the Wizard walked into the fight that was going to end him, his prep was laying down safewalls to make sure evil didnt just immediately jump forward 10 spaces when he died? Or making sure his power would allocate to Billy when he died? Or both?
9000 years with the wisdom of gods, and you seem to think The wizard needed a couple hours to re-read his magic books or something. There are no spells that guy doesnt have permanently on the tip of his proverbial tongue. Its just like Strange often just knows the proper spell... it just makes more sense with the Wizard.
And Drained/cut. Whatever. The fact still is that the rock was being held there by magic that Shazam put in place, and the Spectre cut/drained/removed that power.

4.) The standard in DC is that God is the end all be all in DC. So even if that was said at some point, i would like to now enact the Picks and Choosies clause because if there was ever an example of one writer screwing things up, it would be that one. Several writers and editors from both companies have acknowledged that DC puts god unquestionably above everything else.
and how did Nabu do better? Because he lasted longer? Shazam actually WON a round, and then got negated. And Nabu died too, except he hasnt come back yet so... how did he fare better than the Wizard? Just now looking up the pages before your scans, Nabu didnt even get ahit in edge wise (maybe im missing a page?) before being tossed into his own universe. Spectre then burned out all of his power and he had just enough time to give his helmet away. Yeah. I dont see how that was better than actually dropping Spectre. so lolz to your comparison of Classic Strange and Nabu.

5.) By Marvels definition, Spectre is 1/3rd LT. But once again, LT is apparently able wipe out entire realities, but he cant keep one human being in check? The simplest way i can put this is that if someone given the power of someone the equivalent of God and cant kill a lesser being... there is something wrong with your god. Spectre is the Wrath/Vengeance of god. LT is vengeance, Necessity, and equality. And he isnt constantly being policed by TOAA like Spectre is by God. Spectre can kill the strongest players and destroy the most important of places if God would allow it. But LT who is given free reign and yet he is undermined by Strange? Either TOAA isnt very strong and thus your argument is moot, or Classic Strange is also god. if there are two gods than neither really is yada yada yada... you get where that goes.
You keep saying how this person in Marvel is stronger than that person in DC... and i think you should really try comparing things that ACTUALLY compare (like end all be all characters of each company), and working your way down. I have a very strong feeling you compare characters based off of how the comics companies use them, and not on what their actual standing is.

6.) the point im trying to pitch that you keep missing is that Strange is the same dude now as he was then, while current Wizard is not. Before, the wizard was portrayed as weaker. but due to the retcons, Shazam is now a much stronger Wizard with more restrictions on his power. Which is why i keep bringing up the rules. In Marvel, Both of them would be stronger. In Dc, it depends. But noplace has rules for one and not for the other. You seem to be under the assumption that marvel developed actual rules between now and then, but they havent. Not on the scale that DC has. So no, these arent the rules of the op. Those are the rules of the random loaction you made up where The Wizard is still bound bt Strange is free as a bird.

6...2.0?)
I have said a few times (including now twice in this post) that you cant compare characters as easily as you seem to think it is. Im not ignoring your point, but its not a point. each of your arguments about who is stronger than who would make their own multipage discussion thread, but your just saying they are fact. They are not, and your comparisons are unfounded. And if i were u, now would be when i attack your vernacular and reading comprehension...

7. the way i worded it was so as not to make assumptions. I said "Mr. 40+ year old comic collector". A That means you are at least 40 years old and collect comics. I suppose you would have rather i said "mr. 40+ year old who has collected comics for nearly 40 years" ? would that have come across as a grammatical improvement to you? or are you just running for Mayor of Stupid-Reasons-to-Split-Hairs Town?

yes. please be done. You never seemed to understand what i was actually arguing anyway. I do believe Classic Strange would win this fight based on the massively fawed feats system. And i do believe if for no reason whatsoever Shazam was bound to rules while Classic Strange wasnt that Classic would stomp. My whole argument has always been that Depending on the rules of the world, Shazam COULD win. You know, if the writer of the story wasnt actively trying their hardest to make Strange the winner, which is how the entirety of his feats portfolio came to be.

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#69 Edited By Amazingoctus

@beatboks1: I would like very much for you to tell me where I said that this was Classic Strange.

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#70 Edited By SevanGrim

@beatboks1: light and dark, order and chaos. You know what i mean once again. it is constantly refered to as Dark magic in current and past comics, so thats another silly hair to split.
it has been established in DC that magic always has its price. While some people can go ahead and do whatever, the stronger teir magic users always have to stick tightly to whatever type of magic they subscribe to, or the balance gets shifted. Its like a teeter-totter. The more you go down, the more the other goes up. These rules are why both chaos and order constantly give into one another, and refuse to do things even though they are they types of things they probably would do (ie finding a sister or healing a leg. They are the politicians of magic, and every action they make has repercussions.
i notice you like to ignore things i say and then say i didnt say them. I repeat: why would the Wizard bring the rock anywhere for anything less than to amp up a fight? It would be utterly stupid for him to plant it in front of the hall of justice or over Faucet city just to talk to someone. But the rock was made entirely by the Wizard. The place where it exists. The magic that holds it there. The magic holding everything in it from escaping. Thats all him. So obviously he would be able to move it if he actually needed to. And obviously it can move, as it did when his magic was no longer holding it and it fell through multiple dimensions. Your suggesting that the Wizard cant control his own power... which is silly.
and as i also said, seeing as to how the Wizard didnt actually do anything for the fight, perhaps he was putting up magical safeguards for things like those you mentioned. Idk if you remember, but Mary and Billy both lost their power a couple days latter, while Billy and Black Adam kept theirs. There was no other reason why they kept theirs but Mary lost hers, or why Freddy didnt keep his when his came FROM Billy who was still empowered, than to assume that maybe that was one of the things the Wizard did with that spare time of his. And That would also explain why the magic world went absolutely bonkers for all of the year of 52. Your right in wondering why magic didnt go crazy immediately after the rock and the Wizard were gone, but your ignoring the obvious conclusions because your so eager for me to be wrong.

Spectre ALWAYS gets a chance to actually mess up before he gets cut off from the power and put back in his place. God never proactively said "your going to do wrong soon, so im cutting you off". Spectre wrecked havok to the magical universe, and then God cut him down and Shoved him into Crispus. Your way suggests that God turned down his power but still let him go free, which makes no sense. Why would God take the axe away from Spectre when he knows he still has a knife? Your seriously suggesting that Spectre somehow managed to trick God once he decided something, and thats not the case. God didnt take action until after all the damage was done, and then he took Full action (ie, took the axe and the knife and locked Spectre in his room).

He's a different creature metaphorically speaking, but he's still the same Strange in the literal sense. And i can say it till the cow come home: DC doesnt whore out their characters like MArvel does. Anti-Monitor can destroy universes. So can normal monitors. But it doesnt happen very often.

And no. Once i put the words "year" and "old" in a sentence together, the number became your age. the coma really makes no difference. It doesnt actually change what it means, just how grammatically correct it is. but it wasnt like using the wrong type of Their or something. You should have been able to decipher the difference.

12 years ago

CapitolPunishment

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#71 Edited By CapitolPunishment

Dr. Strange never defeated the LT. The LT was just testing Dr. Strange and his ability to use magic, that’s why he was using it himself, it’s what Dr. Strange understands. The LT is the cosmic judge, he does not use magic for his own actions, he uses or does what who he is testing uses or does to test them at their A game. Just because he was using it on Strange only means he was testing Stranges abilities with magic. If any of you disagree with me then please provide me a scan or at least an issue number where The LT uses magic in a comic outside one based on Dr. Strange.

At the end of that battle everyone is referring to the LT admits that Strange is more powerful than he expected but that does not mean anything, Dr. Strange also said on the same panel that the LT could destroy him and his tiny planet with a thought. Saying that Dr. Strange wins this because he bested the LT is just plain stupid, sorry.

@Lance Bastro

said:

@Amazingoctus : and the problem with the spectre is that his powers fluctuate frequently. this is unlike the living tribunal, who's powers are always constant. about the anti-monitor, there was a battle a while back about shuma or some other kind of magical entity vs anti-monitor stating that anti-monitor's power is not as powerful as i seems due to the nature of how the DC universe is created (1 universe broken into different smaller realities = multiverse) differ from how the nature of how marvel's universe is created (1 omniverse - many extra dimensions - one of them is the multiverse - 1 multiverse houses many of alternate universe)

That is not entirely true Lance, after watching the videos that you provided I would think that you would appreciate DC comics more than you do. During COIE it was revealed that the Multiverse was created when Krona peered back to watch creation, him watching it created a paradox when he thought about what he was seeing (same theory as your video), his thoughts created both the Monitor and the anti Monitor, from them more thought created the rest of the DC Multiverse, thought = perception = creation. Same can be said with the Guardians of the universe and the other video you posted, emotions warp reality, that theory, although not exactly the same is the basis for the emotional spectrum that the Guardians harnessed. Read into some GL arc’s and you will see what I mean.

Now back to the Multiverse theory and Extra dimensions, DC has Extra dimensions as well, they do not consider there extra dimensions part of the DC Multiverse. My time is short so I will give two quick examples. When the Anti Monitor in COIE was searching for Raven she could not be found because she was hiding in an Extra dimensional plane where the Anti Monitor could not see and did not know of and that plane remained unaffected by what the Anti monitor was trying to do. Another example of an Extra dimension in DC is the 5 dimension.

12 years ago

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#72 Edited By SevanGrim

@beatboks1:
This whole new thing your on where the price of magic is new to the 10th age is garbage. There have been various stages of prices since AT LEAST the first crisis. It is (once again) the plot device that has been used countless times to explain why the higher ups from both the good/light/order and the evil/dark/chaos wouldnt interfere. And the heroes of the magic community are just as diverse as the scientific ones. There are a handful who drew from the magical/mana wellspring themselves. The one who comes to mind is Black Alice, who doesnt subscribe to either side, and doesnt draw her base power from any person or thing.

almost allThe forces of Chaos were all formerly the forces of evil/ darkness, and vice versa. please stop splitting that hair.

When the Wizard created the Rock, he was Captain Marvel+ 1000 or so years. He built the rock himself. The gods who gave him his powers wer long forgotten by then. The magic is his, and he put the rock there, and he has since put a very large portion of power into it. It is his place of power. Your argument is once again rather silly.

Your analysis of the Spectre still doesnt make sense. God didnt want to stop Spectre, but he wanted to punish him after he did what he did? No. More logically, God gave him a chance, even though he knew what he would do, then punished him, like he does with humans. He dosnt cripple people in hopes that they dont do it when he knows they will. Flawed.

The way magic beings fight in DC is supremely different from the way they fight in Marvel. Obviously any little magic user in DC could tear half a city apart fighting, but do you notice how the higher ups just kinda hex each other and shit? yeah. another reason why you cant compare companies like that . Marvel is all about who can bring the bigger guns. DC is about strategy and overhands while maintaining balance.

you've receded over half your arguments in one way or another throughout the course of our back and forth, and i dont like playing ping pong. Im done.

12 years ago

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#73 Edited By Amazingoctus

@beatboks1: I hope I didn't say that rudely, because in real life I thought it a different way. Sorry if that sounded rude. I would like to imagine this as Strange who's powerlevel is inbetween both of the others

12 years ago

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#74 Edited By Lance Bastro

@CapitolPunishment said:
Dr. Strange never defeated the LT. The LT was just testing Dr. Strange and his ability to use magic, that’s why he was using it himself, it’s what Dr. Strange understands. The LT is the cosmic judge, he does not use magic for his own actions, he uses or does what who he is testing uses or does to test them at their A game. Just because he was using it on Strange only means he was testing Stranges abilities with magic. If any of you disagree with me then please provide me a scan or at least an issue number where The LT uses magic in a comic outside one based on Dr. Strange.

i never implied nor suggested that he defeated the living tribunal directly. i implied that he defended earth with the battle (or test) against the living tribunal.... and he won... by doing it with the power of persuasion. but if it had not been for him to prove his power of will 1st... persuasion would have been impossible. remember, the living tribunal was going to destroy earth at a glimpse until dr. strange rushed down there to confront him. the living tribunal NEEDED to destroy earth, but strange stopped him through will and persuasion. but another factor here that is discretely noticed is that the living tribunal needed to use magic as well...

"a curse so potent that i must use the sign of the seraphim!"
"i still have enough power to conjure yet another ring of raggadorr!"
"you broke the rings?! never has even i have ever witness such power!"
"i deny not that you are indeed more powerful than i deemed"

these are all suggested notes that the writer was using (accepted by stan lee) that the living tribunal needed to use extra-dimensional powers to challenge one such as strange, who too uses extra-dimensional powers. both of them were summoning from the same power source. and yes... dr. strange did humble himself to the supreme living tribunal because the living tribunal is the judge of all things within the boundaries of the cosmic compass. earth is a part of that realm so strange has no other choice but to accept that fact.... he is a mortal protected by deities of another plane of existence... the living tribunal is an eternal abstract that too has the power to be protected by those same deities..... if you take away the deities, you would have a eternal abstract fighting a mortal human being and that itself pretty much tells the tale...

hence:

"even so you at an instant thought, you can utterly destroy me and the earth."

At the end of that battle everyone is referring to the LT admits that Strange is more powerful than he expected but that does not mean anything, Dr. Strange also said on the same panel that the LT could destroy him and his tiny planet with a thought. Saying that Dr. Strange wins this because he bested the LT is just plain stupid, sorry.

but look at the panel before that: dr. strange summoned another spell telling the living tribunal that even the living tribunal can submit to emotion! hence the reason living tribunal realized that dr. strange's will was beyond that of what he deemed in the 1st place. that means, dr. strange won.

and look at the 4 panels after that, while living tribunal allows dr. strange to pick up the cloak of levitation. what does living tribunal say?

"let none say that the living tribunal e'er betray on his scares words, for EVEN I have NOT THE POWER to spare your world for too long."

implies the reason why the living tribunal NEEDED to destroy the earth as quickly as possible. (limits quarantining zom's contagion essence) which dr. strange sorta like..... intervened..... thus exhausting some of that power through the spells of the principalities. (i will post another subject about personal power vs conjuring power vs hybrid personal/conjuring power)

after this fight (or test), dr. strange has to fight several more times and goes from zom powered mordor to nebulos and back to zom powered mordor and then back to nebulos..... this became the battle between living tribunal & dr. strange vs nebulos. and this battle REALLY shows the limits of living tribunal and how he fairs inside the extra-dimensional planes.

That is not entirely true Lance, after watching the videos that you provided I would think that you would appreciate DC comics more than you do. During COIE it was revealed that the Multiverse was created when Krona peered back to watch creation, him watching it created a paradox when he thought about what he was seeing (same theory as your video), his thoughts created both the Monitor and the anti Monitor, from them more thought created the rest of the DC Multiverse, thought = perception = creation. Same can be said with the Guardians of the universe and the other video you posted, emotions warp reality, that theory, although not exactly the same is the basis for the emotional spectrum that the Guardians harnessed. Read into some GL arc’s and you will see what I mean.

wait... if not had it been for krona, there would not have been monitors and/or aniti-monitors? that would mean that krona is the creator of matter and anti-matter! that is pretty interesting indeed. i need to take a deeper look on that. thanks for the info.

Now back to the Multiverse theory and Extra dimensions, DC has Extra dimensions as well, they do not consider there extra dimensions part of the DC Multiverse. My time is short so I will give two quick examples. When the Anti Monitor in COIE was searching for Raven she could not be found because she was hiding in an Extra dimensional plane where the Anti Monitor could not see and did not know of and that plane remained unaffected by what the Anti monitor was trying to do. Another example of an Extra dimension in DC is the 5 dimension.

ahhh, that is exactly the same thing during the scarlet witch sagas and that of the mikaboshi saga, m'kron saga and infinity sagas. all the people that were within the corridors of the extra-dimensional plane where some how unaffected by mass changes of a reality/realities.

ahhh, but this is the very very confusing part of talking about dimensions. i am quite aware of the dimensions of DC, and it differs through word rather than its cause.

the reason why i don't call the crimson cosmos a "dimension", but a universe of it's own is because of the mistaken two definitions of "dimensions".

dimension = realm
dimension = comprehension

realm is a world or area....
while number 2) is a concept of an idea of comprehension: 1st dimension, 2nd, 3D, 4D, 5D all the way up to 11 (i believe)

marvel mixes this up via the variations of writers. but i believe somewhere in marvel, the living tribunal mentions that he is the 11th dimensional concept. i believe that mad jim jaspers is a 3D human/mutant with a consciousness of 5D; no higher, otherwise he will be able to see living tribunal at his level.... but dr. strange, through his power provided by the extra-dimensional plane.... allows even strange to perceive the living tribunal. so in a nut-shell.... dr. strange is a 3D man, with a consciousness to at least the 10th or peaking 11th dimension. (that is... classic strange of course) lol

this is a really interesting video!

12 years ago

CapitolPunishment

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#75 Edited By CapitolPunishment

@Lance Bastro:

The story was laid out like this, a powerful enemy named Zom was going to threaten the Universal balance starting with Earth. The LT was going to stop that by destroying the Earth and everything on it. Dr. Strange confronted LT and asked for time to stop Zom himself. The LT did not think Strange would be able to do this so he decided to test his abilities with the mystic arts. The Lt used spells against Strange to test his abilities with them to determine of Strange had any chance against Zom at all, strange passed the test. It was not a battle at all.

You have made some good points but still the question remains. Has the LT invoked the power of any extra-dimensional deities or mystic other than the times he has tested Dr. Strange? If you can show me some instances where the LT has invoked spells from these Deities in a battle that did not involve testing Strange it would better your point. If not this was simply a test from the LT, nothing more.

12 years ago

venomoushatred1001

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#76 Edited By venomoushatred1001

@JediXMan said:

Classic Strange wins. Current Strange gets the crap beaten out of him.

12 years ago

SilverGalford

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#77 Edited By SilverGalford

Classic Strange wins. Current Strange gets the crap beaten out of him.

12 years ago

beatboks1

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#78 Edited By beatboks1

For the benefit of those who claim to understand "both" sides of the argument but demonstrate through statement that they don't.
I have taken the time (a week) to reread almost 700 issues (to ensure it's fresh in my memory), to check what I said about DC's rules of magic (3 runs of Dr Fate, 3 Runs of Spectre, . of Shazam, several mystic related mini's, The runs of Fate, numerous Zatanna appearances, Three mini's and a series of Phantom Stranger- just to name a few)
The following confirms what I've said.

Clearly it's not splitting hairs. Chaos isn't evil, and order isn't good. Further illustrated by the act that Order tried to bring about the destruction of everything several times so that the Kali Yuga ( the age of Chaos ) would come to an end and the new age of order begin. Also if you'd like more scans please explain why, if Shazam can't draw on Chaotic magic other sorcerers on the side of Good can ( such as Classic fate courtesy of the amulet of Anubis as shown in Immortal Dr fate and Special Issue 1 Dr fate, Jared Steven's Fate powered by both Order and Chaos, The Inza Nelson fate who was powered solely my Chaos the reason Kent couldn't merge, Sentinel/ Alan Scot whose magic comes from the "chaotic energy" collected by the guardians of which the "good" chaotic energy broke away from, Hawk {of Hawk and Dove} powered by Chaos and many more )

The lowly powered Inza Nelso Fate (the second lowest of all versions) could bring the dead back to life and Shazam couldn't heal a boy on crutches.

All of these clearly show that a being of power taking on a mortal form (like the one Shazam has) are limited by that form. Also supported by the 1987 Phantom Stranger MIni in which he is stripped of his immortality and in various Spectre showings (fro example his 3 battles with Dr fate) where he stated his advantage is that he is a spirit unfettered by mortal form.

Too High level beings in separate runs a decade apart describe magic as I've stated. The Lord of Order Shat Ru and Phantom Stranger. Also supported in both Fate and teh Book of Fate (featuring Jared Stephens)

A couple of several sources that show the interaction of Order and Chaos caused creation. As I said, may no longer be canon as it has been stated in New Gods (and Spectre)that the Source wave caused it , so either their interaction caused the source wave or it's now changed.

An example of receiving power from from common man. Also shown in The 87 Phantom Stranger mini (the way Stranger get's his power back), Justice league (the gray man saga) and countless Classic Dr fate tales in Action and Adventure when it was shown that the Lords of Order and Chaos assumed the guise of Gods to gain worship to increase their power. The Lords of Chaos are on occasion referred to incorrectly as "dark" lords. But they aren't using "dark" magic. Think about it for just a minute. Light magic (and good) center around love. Order is pure logic therefore no love.

So instead of making baseless statements, and just repeat repeat either offer some supporting evidence or GTFO

12 years ago