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#1 Posted by Amazingoctus (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

 
 
 
 

 

 

vs

 

 
 
 
 
#2 Posted by SlimJ87D (9603 posts) - - Show Bio

Classic Strange?

#3 Posted by JediXMan (30193 posts) - - Show Bio

Classic Strange wins. Current Strange gets the crap beaten out of him.

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#4 Posted by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio
Classic Doc Strange would take out The Wizard Shazam... dude fought a variety of Cosmic Powerhouses during his Early Run...
#5 Edited by Amazingoctus (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

oh versions. hmmm I will go with current strange for now. tough choice. actually does anyone else have another option, I don't want him to either easily win or easily die
#6 Posted by JediXMan (30193 posts) - - Show Bio
@Amazingoctus said:
oh versions. hmmm I will go with current strange for now. tough choice. actually does anyone else have another option, I don't want him to either easily win or easily die
Won't be fair either way. Classic Strange >>>>>> Shazam >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Current Strange.
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#7 Edited by Amazingoctus (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: well... I have to go with.... current strange. it's so hard to choose
#8 Posted by Grim (2079 posts) - - Show Bio

Wizard can win if he's able to pull some bs that brings the Rock to the fight. It really depends on which Universe they are in.
DC? Strange has a 50/50 depending on if the DCU's magic rules at the time allow Wizard to bring the rock.
Marvel? 90% to Wizard, as Marvel's magic rules are much more lax, and he really does have more power than Strange. Its just spread out and more restrained. But In the Marvel U the chains are off.

#9 Edited by Amazingoctus (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

@Grim: I never did think of that kind of stuff. I'll put it in the marvel universe. shazam can use the rock of eternity (just imagine it's in the marvel universe) seeing as how I think he'll need it.
#10 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:


                    Wizard can win if he's able to pull some bs that brings the Rock to the fight. It really depends on which Universe they are in. DC? Strange has a 50/50 depending on if the DCU's magic rules at the time allow Wizard to bring the rock.Marvel? 90% to Wizard, as Marvel's magic rules are much more lax, and he really does have more power than Strange. Its just spread out and more restrained. But In the Marvel U the chains are off.

                   

               

Classic Strange negated the Infinity Guantlet, defeated Galactus 3 times with one spell, defeated In-Betweener being empowered by the Living Tribunal, survived 2 of the Living Tribunals attacks, and alot more crazy things.
#11 Posted by TheBatman586 (6316 posts) - - Show Bio

Classic Strange wins, current Strange gets stomped.
#12 Posted by Amazingoctus (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

@Susanoo: Shazam is one of the most powerful magic entities in the DC Universe(s). He is kind of like DC's Strange when you put some thought to it. I don't think now that it will be easily one any which way.
#13 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@Amazingoctus said:


                   
@Susanoo: Shazam is one of the most powerful magic entities in the DC Universe(s). He is kind of like DC's Strange when you put some thought to it. I don't think now that it will be easily one any which way.

                   

               


But is Shazam above guys like Anti-Monitor? No. DCs Strange is SA Dr. Fate.

TOAA = Writer.

 

Heart of the Universe = Writer again


Living Tribunal = Writer with a few restrictions

 

Classic Dr. Strange = Same thing as above

 

Infinity Guantlet = same thing as above but weaker


 

#14 Posted by Amazingoctus (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

@Susanoo:   Shazam is close to Anti-Moniter and I am sure of that. 1 thing though. Anti-Moniter is a cosmic being not magic. I just thought I would say that I don't remember what TOAA means.
#15 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@Amazingoctus said:


                   
@Susanoo:   Shazam is close to Anti-Moniter and I am sure of that. 1 thing though. Anti-Moniter is a cosmic being not magic. I just thought I would say that I don't remember what TOAA means.

                   

               

TOAA = The One Above All.
#16 Edited by Amazingoctus (3122 posts) - - Show Bio


@Susanoo:   Oh. The celestial?

 

 
 
#17 Posted by sexy beast (352 posts) - - Show Bio

Classic Strange wins...If not Loses.

#18 Posted by Grim (2079 posts) - - Show Bio
@Susanoo:

Long Answer: the Wizard is old magic. I dont mean he's using old magic. I mean he IS old magic. The one constant in all magic across every medium is that old magic is better and stringer than new magic.
 Like i said, it all comes down to the universe. DC's magic rules are very restrictive. The Wizard has enough power to empower multiple beings with the powers of Gods, to the point where they are nearly on level with Superman. He actually manipulates god powers. And he's containing the seven deadly sins. The seven entities that are powered by every human-being in the world. And these are the smaller things. The things he does on the side as he constantly wars with lords of hell and other dimensions who are trying to bend the rules so THEIR magic has the upperhand in the universe.
 He has all that power, but in The DCU he could still be taken down by any bozo if the moon was aligned just right and enough lawyers were sacrificed.
 If he could just cut loose? If he didnt have to focus the majority of his attention on keeping Hell lords from usurping his power (which he is ALWAYS doing in DC)?  In the Marvel U, there are no power struggles to keep balance. All you have to do is keep practicing, and you keep getting stronger. You collect magic items, and you keep getting stronger.
 The Wizard has the power of gods, the seven deadly sins, and the rock is a formation made from chunks of heaven and hell, imprisoning several highly powered demons, and maintaing a steady flow of massive levels of magic between dimensions.
  
 Short Answer: If the 9000 year old magician brought his celestial waystation of power to a fight against himself 8000 years younger... he would stomp.
#19 Posted by mark5 (1213 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
Classic Strange wins. Current Strange gets the crap beaten out of him.
second that
#20 Posted by Nefarious (19546 posts) - - Show Bio

Classic Strange wins this fight.

#21 Posted by MarvelHouseofstormscarletwitch_delete (175 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by Amazingoctus (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

MarvelHouseofstormscarletwitch: exactly why did you put that here?
#23 Posted by Nefarious (19546 posts) - - Show Bio
@MarvelHouseofstormscarletwitch: Team 1. The Silver Surfer solos. Since he has the power cosmic, he is more powerful than both the god of thunder and the mutant villain.
#24 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:


                    @Susanoo:

Long Answer: the Wizard is old magic. I dont mean he's using old magic. I mean he IS old magic. The one constant in all magic across every medium is that old magic is better and stringer than new magic.
 Like i said, it all comes down to the universe. DC's magic rules are very restrictive. The Wizard has enough power to empower multiple beings with the powers of Gods, to the point where they are nearly on level with Superman. He actually manipulates god powers. And he's containing the seven deadly sins. The seven entities that are powered by every human-being in the world. And these are the smaller things. The things he does on the side as he constantly wars with lords of hell and other dimensions who are trying to bend the rules so THEIR magic has the upperhand in the universe.
 He has all that power, but in The DCU he could still be taken down by any bozo if the moon was aligned just right and enough lawyers were sacrificed.
 If he could just cut loose? If he didnt have to focus the majority of his attention on keeping Hell lords from usurping his power (which he is ALWAYS doing in DC)?  In the Marvel U, there are no power struggles to keep balance. All you have to do is keep practicing, and you keep getting stronger. You collect magic items, and you keep getting stronger.
 The Wizard has the power of gods, the seven deadly sins, and the rock is a formation made from chunks of heaven and hell, imprisoning several highly powered demons, and maintaing a steady flow of massive levels of magic between dimensions.
  
 Short Answer: If the 9000 year old magician brought his celestial waystation of power to a fight against himself 8000 years younger... he would stomp.

                   

               


... Let me try and put it this way.

 

Most powerful Beings/Items to have been ever made in Marvel:

 

1. TOAA = The One Above All

 

2. The Heart of the Universe

 

3. Pre-Retcon Beyonder

 

4. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man

 

5. The Living Tribunal

 

6. Classic Dr. Strange

 

7. The Infinity Guantlet

 

All the things I've ranked are keys to let the imagination of the writer run loose. Classic Dr. Strange is a dues ex Machina character. He'll win. If it's current Strange, than he dies horribly.

#25 Posted by Amazingoctus (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish there was someway that I could prove Shazam could go toe-to-toe with Classic Strange, because I know he can. No doubt Classic Strange was more powerful but that dosn't entirely doom Shazam. He is intelligence and could find a way to at least LAST a while.
#26 Posted by SlimJ87D (9603 posts) - - Show Bio
@Amazingoctus said:

I wish there was someway that I could prove Shazam could go toe-to-toe with Classic Strange, because I know he can. No doubt Classic Strange was more powerful but that dosn't entirely doom Shazam. He is intelligence and could find a way to at least LAST a while.
Then please, just let your topic die if you can't prove anything.
#27 Posted by Grim (2079 posts) - - Show Bio
@Susanoo:  im not sure what you mean by "keys", but that list doesnt mean much to me.

 half of Marvel's A-list has been empowered to to "top 10 most powerful" status at one point or another. just putting that out there. It cant mean that much when it happens to everyone.
  But more importantly, everything that can be said about Strange can also be said about the Wizard. The Wizard always knows the correct magic to use in a situation. He can make, teleport, transmutate,  (whatever) anything. He has fought gods, beings empowered by gods (and THE God), demons  in their element, demon-god hybrid creatures... ect.
The only thing he probably hasnt done that Strange has is team up with street level heroes to fight crime.

seriously, The Wizard was empowered by a handful of gods (almost exactly like Captain Marvel, but with OLDER gods) 9000 years ago. Then he spent all that time practicing magic. He was on par with Strange in the first 1000 years, when he was given a giant rock made of a chunk of heaven and a chunk of hell and told to keep seven deadly sins locked up and control the flow of magic into the dimension. 
 

#28 Posted by Thor's hammmer (7184 posts) - - Show Bio

Classsic can definetly take this.
#29 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:


                    @Susanoo:  im not sure
what you mean by "keys", but that list doesnt mean much to
me.

 half of Marvel's A-list has been empowered to to "top
10 most powerful" status at one point or another. just putting
that out there. It cant mean that much when it happens to everyone.
 
But more importantly, everything that can be said about Strange can
also be said about the Wizard. The Wizard always knows the correct
magic to use in a situation. He can make, teleport, transmutate, 
(whatever) anything. He has fought gods, beings empowered by gods
(and THE God), demons  in their element, demon-god hybrid
creatures... ect.
The only thing he probably hasnt done that Strange has
is team up with street level heroes to fight crime.

seriously,
The Wizard was empowered by a handful of gods (almost exactly like
Captain Marvel, but with OLDER gods) 9000 years ago. Then he spent
all that time practicing magic. He was on par with Strange in the
first 1000 years, when he was given a giant rock made of a chunk of
heaven and a chunk of hell and told to keep seven deadly sins locked
up and control the flow of magic into the dimension. 
 



                   

               


What I mean by keys are that they are practically the writers letting loose their imagination.

 

The top A-list for marvel is:

 

1. TOAA, 2. Pre-Retcon Beyonder, 3. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man, 4. Living Tribunal, 5. Classic Dr. Strange.

I don't see Shazam being anywhere near the power of these guys.

#30 Posted by Grim (2079 posts) - - Show Bio
@Susanoo: how did Strange loose all of this amazing godlike power anyway?
#31 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:


                    @Susanoo: how did Strange loose all of this amazing godlike power anyway?

                   

               

With the loss of his sorcerer supreme title, he lost all of it. They had to depower him but they nerfed him to a level where ninjas can take him apart now.
#32 Posted by Grim (2079 posts) - - Show Bio
@Susanoo:  well. if i had to make a list like that for DC(excluding god himself) , it would go:

1.The Endless
2: The Source
3.Spector/Eclipso
4.Universal Entity Libra
5. Anti Monitor
6. The Wizard Shazam
7-whatever: a bunch of other empowered beings.

see how little that list really matters? The difference between Marvel and DC in this situation is that DC doesnt whore out its MOST POWERFUL BEINGS to whichever story seems most shocking.Why? because it lowers them. The Watcher was considered a pretty epic Marvel character until someone punched him in the face. Galactis is still considered up there... but a bunch of Reed Richards killed one with science.
 The logical thing to do when trying to gauge the power levels of two characters from different companies is not to try compair their feats (as teh very fabric of their universes are so different that very few things match up), but to compare what they have in comon.
  In this case, that is magic. and as i already said, in both companies, older magic and more powerful items are usually trump cards. You cant honestly belive there is any magical knowledge that Strange would know that Shazam wouldnt... or maybe you could. But that makes no sense. 9000 years of magicing vs half a human lifetime? comon....
#33 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:


                    @Susanoo:  well. if i had to make a list like that for DC(excluding god himself) , it would go:1.The Endless2: The Source3.Spector/Eclipso4.Universal Entity Libra5. Anti Monitor6. The Wizard Shazam7-whatever: a bunch of other empowered beings.see how little that list really matters? The difference between Marvel and DC in this situation is that DC doesnt whore out its MOST POWERFUL BEINGS to whichever story seems most shocking.Why? because it lowers them. The Watcher was considered a pretty epic Marvel character until someone punched him in the face. Galactis is still considered up there... but a bunch of Reed Richards killed one with science.  The logical thing to do when trying to gauge the power levels of two characters from different companies is not to try compair their feats (as teh very fabric of their universes are so different that very few things match up), but to compare what they have in comon.  In this case, that is magic. and as i already said, in both companies, older magic and more powerful items are usually trump cards. You cant honestly belive there is any magical knowledge that Strange would know that Shazam wouldnt... or maybe you could. But that makes no sense. 9000 years of magicing vs half a human lifetime? comon....

                   

               


Wheres Presence? The Watcher isn't "epic". A Watcher got killed by Doom. Classic Strange is far above a Watcher. Half a human lifetime that became almost as powerful as the LT itself? That became more powerful than the Infinity Guantlet? That defeated Galactus 2-3 times with one spell? That defeated Shuma Gorath twice? That defeated an LT amped In-Betweener with no prep? All you have to do is compare their feats (If we go by your way and only compare wiki, than Odin is on par with Anti-Monitor or Sentry is more powerful than Superman). Shazam has virtually no feats to suggest hes anything above skyfather. Strange and Fate have feats that make them on top of their entire list.

 

1. TOAA

2. Pre-Retcon Beyonder

3. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man

4. LT

5. POTWC

6. Classic Dr. Strange

7. HOM Scarlett Witch


 

#34 Posted by Son_of_Magnus (15258 posts) - - Show Bio

The only thing that could stop Shazam was The Spectre Shazam has this

#35 Posted by Grim (2079 posts) - - Show Bio
@Susanoo said:
@Grim said:


                    @Susanoo:  well. if i had to make a list like that for DC(excluding god himself) , it would go:1.The Endless2: The Source3.Spector/Eclipso4.Universal Entity Libra5. Anti Monitor6. The Wizard Shazam7-whatever: a bunch of other empowered beings.see how little that list really matters? The difference between Marvel and DC in this situation is that DC doesnt whore out its MOST POWERFUL BEINGS to whichever story seems most shocking.Why? because it lowers them. The Watcher was considered a pretty epic Marvel character until someone punched him in the face. Galactis is still considered up there... but a bunch of Reed Richards killed one with science.  The logical thing to do when trying to gauge the power levels of two characters from different companies is not to try compair their feats (as teh very fabric of their universes are so different that very few things match up), but to compare what they have in comon.  In this case, that is magic. and as i already said, in both companies, older magic and more powerful items are usually trump cards. You cant honestly belive there is any magical knowledge that Strange would know that Shazam wouldnt... or maybe you could. But that makes no sense. 9000 years of magicing vs half a human lifetime? comon....

                   

               


Wheres Presence? The Watcher isn't "epic". A Watcher got killed by Doom. Classic Strange is far above a Watcher. Half a human lifetime that became almost as powerful as the LT itself? That became more powerful than the Infinity Guantlet? That defeated Galactus 2-3 times with one spell? That defeated Shuma Gorath twice? That defeated an LT amped In-Betweener with no prep? All you have to do is compare their feats (If we go by your way and only compare wiki, than Odin is on par with Anti-Monitor or Sentry is more powerful than Superman). Shazam has virtually no feats to suggest hes anything above skyfather. Strange and Fate have feats that make them on top of their entire list.

 

1. TOAA

2. Pre-Retcon Beyonder

3. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man

4. LT

5. POTWC

6. Classic Dr. Strange

7. HOM Scarlett Witch


 

The Presence is God. And i'll say again: DC doesnt whore their god-likes out to every story that seems shocking enough. So feats are much harder to come by. IF DC had someone on level with Living Tribunal, he would never be lowered to trying to blast any normal hero. They would either just die, or he would never look at them. so i say again: feats dont mean much between companies.
#36 Posted by PowerHerc (82744 posts) - - Show Bio

Strange wins a close one.
#37 Edited by venomoushatred1001 (12334 posts) - - Show Bio

Classic Strange wins
#38 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:


                    @Susanoo said:

@Grim said:


                    @Susanoo:  well. if i had to make a list like that for DC(excluding god himself) , it would go:1.The Endless2: The Source3.Spector/Eclipso4.Universal Entity Libra5. Anti Monitor6. The Wizard Shazam7-whatever: a bunch of other empowered beings.see how little that list really matters? The difference between Marvel and DC in this situation is that DC doesnt whore out its MOST POWERFUL BEINGS to whichever story seems most shocking.Why? because it lowers them. The Watcher was considered a pretty epic Marvel character until someone punched him in the face. Galactis is still considered up there... but a bunch of Reed Richards killed one with science.  The logical thing to do when trying to gauge the power levels of two characters from different companies is not to try compair their feats (as teh very fabric of their universes are so different that very few things match up), but to compare what they have in comon.  In this case, that is magic. and as i already said, in both companies, older magic and more powerful items are usually trump cards. You cant honestly belive there is any magical knowledge that Strange would know that Shazam wouldnt... or maybe you could. But that makes no sense. 9000 years of magicing vs half a human lifetime? comon....

                   

               


Wheres Presence? The Watcher isn't "epic". A Watcher got killed by Doom. Classic Strange is far above a Watcher. Half a human lifetime that became almost as powerful as the LT itself? That became more powerful than the Infinity Guantlet? That defeated Galactus 2-3 times with one spell? That defeated Shuma Gorath twice? That defeated an LT amped In-Betweener with no prep? All you have to do is compare their feats (If we go by your way and only compare wiki, than Odin is on par with Anti-Monitor or Sentry is more powerful than Superman). Shazam has virtually no feats to suggest hes anything above skyfather. Strange and Fate have feats that make them on top of their entire list.

 

1. TOAA

2. Pre-Retcon Beyonder

3. Pre-Retcon Molecule Man

4. LT

5. POTWC

6. Classic Dr. Strange

7. HOM Scarlett Witch


 


The Presence is God. And i'll say again: DC doesnt whore their god-likes out to every story that seems shocking enough. So feats are much harder to come by. IF DC had someone on level with Living Tribunal, he would never be lowered to trying to blast any normal hero. They would either just die, or he would never look at them. so i say again: feats dont mean much between companies.

                   

               


That's why you have to compare feats. Without feats, Shazam seems to be Odins equal. You need to use feats to compare 2 different companies. Otherwise, Sentry seems more powerful than Superman just because he has molecular manipulation or blue marvel seems more powerful because he can use anti-matter.

#39 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheBatman586 said:
Classic Strange wins, current Strange gets stomped.
#40 Posted by jojjimbo (2472 posts) - - Show Bio

Classic Strange wins.

#41 Posted by MutieLover (100 posts) - - Show Bio
@Susanoo: regarding the whole Dr. Strange "negating" the Infinity Gauntlet. The point was that Nebula was inexperienced and didn't consider that the Strange would cast a spell that allowed him to side-step her decree. She literally had the Gauntlet for a few minutes and had been mentally and physically deranged for a long period of time. And once she realized her mistake she easily neutralized Strange.
#42 Posted by Susanoo (5909 posts) - - Show Bio
@mutielover said:


                    @Susanoo: regarding the whole Dr. Strange "negating" the Infinity Gauntlet. The point was that Nebula was inexperienced and didn't consider that the Strange would cast a spell that allowed him to side-step her decree. She literally had the Gauntlet for a few minutes and had been mentally and physically deranged for a long period of time. And once she realized her mistake she easily neutralized Strange.

                   

               

He has also fought Adam Warlock with the IG and to make my point more clear, he has defeated Shuma Gorath in its realm with prep, defeated In-Betweener (Being amped by Living Tribunal) without prep, koed Galactus several times with one spell, and alot more crazy things. Strange is a dues ex machina character and can do anything the writer wants him to do for the plot.
#43 Posted by JediXMan (30193 posts) - - Show Bio
@Amazingoctus said:

@Susanoo:   Shazam is close to Anti-Moniter and I am sure of that. 1 thing though. Anti-Moniter is a cosmic being not magic. I just thought I would say that I don't remember what TOAA means.
I just read this for the first time:

Shazam is far below the Anti-Monitor, man. Shazam after preparing for the fight lost to Spectre, who had no enhancements. Spectre stalemated the Anti-Monitor while empowered by all of the magic of the universe (which probably included Shazam).
Moderator
#44 Edited by Amazingoctus (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

@Susanoo: If it's for the plot then it's P.I.S. and anything can happen, then it means nothing here. Spiderman could take on Living Tribunal and Eternity and win. Dr. Strange (classic) is powerful though, so I am in no way trying to "bash" him or make him seem weak.
#45 Posted by Amazingoctus (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

 

@JediXMan: Yeah I realize that now. I never looked back on it, but Anti-Monitor took on multiple universe's so I just let that slip me, apparently.

#46 Edited by Lance Bastro (4744 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:

@Susanoo:  well. if i had to make a list like that for DC(excluding god himself) , it would go:1.The Endless2: The Source3.Spector/Eclipso4.Universal Entity Libra5. Anti Monitor6. The Wizard Shazam7-whatever: a bunch of other empowered beings.see how little that list really matters? The difference between Marvel and DC in this situation is that DC doesnt whore out its MOST POWERFUL BEINGS to whichever story seems most shocking.Why? because it lowers them. The Watcher was considered a pretty epic Marvel character until someone punched him in the face. Galactis is still considered up there... but a bunch of Reed Richards killed one with science.  The logical thing to do when trying to gauge the power levels of two characters from different companies is not to try compair their feats (as teh very fabric of their universes are so different that very few things match up), but to compare what they have in comon.  In this case, that is magic. and as i already said, in both companies, older magic and more powerful items are usually trump cards. You cant honestly belive there is any magical knowledge that Strange would know that Shazam wouldnt... or maybe you could. But that makes no sense. 9000 years of magicing vs half a human lifetime? comon....

dr. strange (classic) is not just "half a human life time". and this is the "strange" part about it... just like dr. doom, strange is BILLIONS of years old. the reason for this is via time travel, but not only that; strange has been into WORLD BEYOND WORLDS and WOLDS of TIMELESS SILENCE. this means, he's stepped out of time and witness the entire extinction and recreation of universes, multiverse, and omniverse.... the 1st was through God sorcerer, SISE-NEG, and then after that, several other times. it was only after War of the Seven Spheres, when classic Dr. Strange decided to let go of his power's through the principalities that provided power and protection with, but he sooned regain that power, but also decided to divide his powers by magically creating "fakes" of himself and dividing them to each universe. this is almost equivalent to how dr. doom uses doom bots. and also explains why there are weaker incarnations of dr. strange like the dr. strange in House of M. 
through classic strange's comics, marvel has created a duex machina walking p.i.s character with strange... he surpassed his master the ancient one to the point where living tribunal had worried and targeted strange for being so powerful that he was disputing the cosmic scale. not if you ask me; shazam is more or less or in par to the ancient one... but the ancient one is >>> eternity


  
that's pretty much an incarnation of magic >>> a whole universe and body of time.
also you say that shazam IS magic of 90,000 years, but in marvel, magic is timelessness & defiant ambient energy channeled through both inner-dimensional and extra-dimensional. it can get anywhere as old as TOAA to NEMESIS. and proof of this are places like the crimson cosmos, an area of space that is infinite and timeless, one such place where dr. strange has been to; a place that if you enter, compresses all time in existence in one single moment! this means that comparing 90,000 years to timelessness (all time compressed) is like comparing 90,000 years to infinity. so in marvel; magic is infinitely years old, and classic dr. strange is a master of that type of energy. 
#47 Posted by Grim (2079 posts) - - Show Bio
@beatboks1: Read the JLA/JSA crossover. Im pretty sure someone dragged the rock to Earth to get to it (though i may be mistaken. i cant find mine right now). But either way that wouldnt have been the first time. There are probably close to a dozen times in comics when the Wizard showed up WITH the rock to talk to people instead of leaving it behind.
#48 Posted by Grim (2079 posts) - - Show Bio

 @Lance Bastro
all magic is timeless magic. What i meant was that he had been empowered by magic for that amount of time. And if all time is compressed into a single moment... doesnt it become one moment? Collapsing time in on itself does not make it BETTER time. You cant make a second richer somehow by saying its two. And even if he was somplace where time went so fast that it was perceived as a moment, he was still only there a moment in his lifetime, defeating the point of it being an eternity. And obviously he didnt stay there for an equivalent of all of time, because then he never would have left. At some point you have to step back and realize that some "feats" dont make any sense. That whole thing pretty much means he went someplace where allot of stuff happened at once, and then he left. Your trying to make it sound like he studied magic for an infinite amount of time, but thats not the case is it?
  also, as i already mentioned, you cant possibly know who in DC equals who in Marvel on a scale like this, because DC doesnt handle their cosmically powerful characters the same way MArvel does. The Wizard has never gone all out against anyone, or even finished a fight. So how do you know who he's on par with? You cant. While marvel gladly makes their cosmic level beings put on a wrestling show, DC tends to make their cosmic battles actually cosmic, and far beyond shoot-out.
  Most of your argument sounds cool, but i read over it a couple times and it doesn't really make allot of sense.

#49 Posted by Grim (2079 posts) - - Show Bio
@beatboks1: Im pretty damn certain that when Spectre destroyed the rock, chunks of it rained down onto the city it was floating above. And Billy fell from the sky, not from another dimension, when it happened.  SO it was brought to the battle.
  And Spectre is the wrath of god. that doesnt get very limited. His limits are on when he is allowed to use his powers, and what the standard amount of power he can use is. But he has often tapped into greater power for short amounts of time. When he destroyed the rock, Spectre cut Shazams flow of magic, something no one but a being directly fueled by god like Spectre could do. no one else has ever been able to just stop someones magic, and no one else ever will. Why would he do that if he could have beaten him easily with his power as your suggesting? The answer is he couldnt. More than likely, SHazam could have destroyed him.
 And i guess i can point out the difference between Marvel omni's and DC omni's till the end of time and it wouldnt mean much to you, but ill try it again anyway.
 DC doesnt put their most powerful characters out for show like MArvel does. To DC, guys like the Shazam and The Monitor and such dont get into stupid wrestling matches with one another. Saying that feats are required on this scale is pretty much guaranteeing Marvel wins every time. In Dc, the minor heroes fight for the gods. The gods dont fight each other, and they dont fight the lesser beings. You'll be hard pressed to find guys like the Endless getting into any kind of battle with one another.
#50 Posted by Cosmic_Falcon (2039 posts) - - Show Bio
@beatboks1 said:
@Grim said:
@beatboks1: Im pretty damn certain that when Spectre destroyed the rock, chunks of it rained down onto the city it was floating above. And Billy fell from the sky, not from another dimension, when it happened.  SO it was brought to the battle.  And Spectre is the wrath of god. that doesnt get very limited. His limits are on when he is allowed to use his powers, and what the standard amount of power he can use is. But he has often tapped into greater power for short amounts of time. When he destroyed the rock, Spectre cut Shazams flow of magic, something no one but a being directly fueled by god like Spectre could do. no one else has ever been able to just stop someones magic, and no one else ever will. Why would he do that if he could have beaten him easily with his power as your suggesting? The answer is he couldnt. More than likely, SHazam could have destroyed him.  And i guess i can point out the difference between Marvel omni's and DC omni's till the end of time and it wouldnt mean much to you, but ill try it again anyway. DC doesnt put their most powerful characters out for show like MArvel does. To DC, guys like the Shazam and The Monitor and such dont get into stupid wrestling matches with one another. Saying that feats are required on this scale is pretty much guaranteeing Marvel wins every time. In Dc, the minor heroes fight for the gods. The gods dont fight each other, and they dont fight the lesser beings. You'll be hard pressed to find guys like the Endless getting into any kind of battle with one another.
Dude, I'm a DC fan who's been collecting DC comics (they comprise 60 to 70% of my collection) for almost 4 decades. Stop trying to blow smoke up my @$$, it wont wash. The rock exists outside time and space (always has) You can open a portal to it and if that was done something can fall out of the portal into space. That doesn't mean your at the rock, or that you can't close the portal or block it being opened. I have in my collection over 300 of the Spectre's appearances and I can post scan after scan of him being very limited in power. He's suffered defeats at the hands of Zor repeatedly (and when he's defeated him it was only after asking the presence for assistance). Also defeats by Kulak, Nekron, Mandrakk, the King of tears (none of whom are as powerful as the Marvel characters mentioned). There are talimans such as the ring of life and spear of destiny that can utterly dominate him. The spectre has almost 700 appearances, Shazam has nearly 200 (45 with actual showings). Shuma- Gurath has only appeared in comics about 30 times. The same is true for most of Marvels high level "Omni" characters. In fact if you add the appearances of all except Dormammu, Mephisto, Eternity and Loki (I.e characters like the members of the Vishanti, Living tribunal, Shuma) their combined appearances would be less than those of Shazam. Their combined "showings" are also less, but their feats are better. It's been stated by Shazam himself and other lords of Order and Chaos (like Mordru) that Nabu is more powerful than him. It's been stated also by many such Lords of order that they were Surprised that nabu's apprentice (Dr Fate) was his equal (a few actually intimated better). Classic Fate (who has almost 500 appearances of which I own or have owned most, this included a little over 50 of his GA appearances) has feats that would make him Classic Strange's equal (that's comparing PEAK showings). If Shazam isn't as powerful as Fate (which he isn't) than he can't be as powerful as Strange, it's that simple.
Nice post