Dr Strange + Dr Fate vs Dr Doom + Dr Manhattan

"Dr.M has no feats so he has no place here "

" @FLCL1 said:

"Dr.M has no feats so he has no place here "

This "

" @Grim:  Most people here are close minded.  Trying to reason with them so they can see your point of view is almost close to impossible.  They only look at your arguement long enough to argue back, but most of the time they don't care to understand where you're coming from.  That's why most people here use the "no feat" arguement alot, because they can't reason pass what is already known. "

"Well, you see, we use that argument because... well...  HE HAS NO FEATS.  Think of it this way. There's a thread in the 60s with Silver Surfer in it (pretend the internet was around for a minute). He would lose against most characters due to lack of feats. Now look at Silver Surfer now; lots of feats. But he didn't at the time, and that's all that counted.  If Alan Moore decided to make a Watchmen 2 (yeah, right) and made all those arguments canon, then sure, Manhattan would beat a lot more characters than he does right now. But until then, unless there's a source, it's not true. "

"@JediXMan said:

"Well, you see, we use that argument because... well...  HE HAS NO FEATS.  Think of it this way. There's a thread in the 60s with Silver Surfer in it (pretend the internet was around for a minute). He would lose against most characters due to lack of feats. Now look at Silver Surfer now; lots of feats. But he didn't at the time, and that's all that counted.  If Alan Moore decided to make a Watchmen 2 (yeah, right) and made all those arguments canon, then sure, Manhattan would beat a lot more characters than he does right now. But until then, unless there's a source, it's not true. "

He has feats, just nothing to make him on par much less a fight for with Classic Strange, Silver Surfer, Rune Lord Thor and the dozens of characters people put him up against in threads for some godly unknown reason.  Especially against magic, I figure Fate or Strange could easily get rid of him.  Edit: Although it depends what they mean Doom at full power, the guy made himself omnipotent once and has stolen about half a dozen people's powers to amp himself to crazy levels.  So team 2 might have round 2 depending exactly what gas Doom is running on at full power, he has his pick of the litter. "

" @JediXMan:  1. We are now officially going in circles. Whats happening RIGHT NOW is coming true because its happening. Its not coming true. Its happening. His powers really arent precognition. They resemble precognition and time travel mixed together, but in reality their just a sort of omni-existence.  2. like i said, dont have the comic in front of me, but im pretty sure several of the other characters suggest that hes never telling them everything, and that he sees them as children. And he is vague in what he tells the characters, we just have the upper hand of seeing whats going on from outside the fourth wall. he doesnt explain things properly to anyone unless they've already figured it out or its relevant that they know it. 3. Batman has always had them most hi tech stuff available to him, tons of money at his disposal, and the best schooling and training in almost everything. To assume he cant do something that the average police precinct could is absurd.   thats a silly way to see things. I've never seen that person talk, so he cant.   its not like im making Manhattan out to be a god or anything. everything ive said has been very reasonable to his abilities, simply comparing what we know about him to others who we know more about.   if your really so against assumptions, then your first post should have been that this thread is null. There is no proof that magic would affect him either. "

This ones a non event. At lowest power level ( GA appearances in More Fun Comics) Dr Fate is Dr Manhattan (move/control energy and matter in and around him bend it to his will). At his highest power levels he's = Spectre (interestingly most of his SA depictions were Spectre level unless the Spectre was present when he was shown as just below). His greates feat was to recreate existence (with a jesture)after a battle between him and a lord of Chaos destroyed it ( 1985 Immortal Dr Fate, I'm pretty sure the story in question was also a reprint from a 70's action or adventure). Dr Strange has defeated most of Marvels Gods so I don't see teh two of them being troubled even if it was Beyonder Powered Doom.

"This ones a non event. At lowest power level ( GA appearances in More Fun Comics) Dr Fate is Dr Manhattan (move/control energy and matter in and around him bend it to his will). At his highest power levels he's = Spectre (interestingly most of his SA depictions were Spectre level unless the Spectre was present when he was shown as just below). His greates feat was to recreate existence (with a jesture)after a battle between him and a lord of Chaos destroyed it ( 1985 Immortal Dr Fate, I'm pretty sure the story in question was also a reprint from a 70's action or adventure). Dr Strange has defeated most of Marvels Gods so I don't see teh two of them being troubled even if it was Beyonder Powered Doom. "

"This ones a non event. At lowest power level ( GA appearances in More Fun Comics) Dr Fate is Dr Manhattan (move/control energy and matter in and around him bend it to his will). At his highest power levels he's = Spectre (interestingly most of his SA depictions were Spectre level unless the Spectre was present when he was shown as just below). His greates feat was to recreate existence (with a jesture)after a battle between him and a lord of Chaos destroyed it ( 1985 Immortal Dr Fate, I'm pretty sure the story in question was also a reprint from a 70's action or adventure). Dr Strange has defeated most of Marvels Gods so I don't see teh two of them being troubled even if it was Beyonder Powered Doom. "

" @Grim said:

" @Crom-Cruach said:

" If team 1 is operating at full power and working together. Team 2 would loose so hard it wouldn't even be funny. "

How so? Strange just got overpowered by the Hulk not to long ago. And isnt he not even Sorcerer Supreme now? and current fate doesnt know what the hell he's doing. He's good against mid tier magic beings, but hes not gonna be much more than a sidekick to Strange in this fight.  I cant see this as a wipe. Manhattan has both precognition, uber matter manipulation, and multi-level existence on his side, and Doom has more safeguards and plans than Batman (and they're all with better tech and/or magic). Even working together, Manhattan himself can probably bring this fight to a standstill. "

 This logic is faulty on several levels:1-Current version of Strange is neither his average level of power, nor even a minuscule fraction of him working at full power. The Op said standard power and full power. In both cases, Fate and Strange have access to enough magic to stand still even eldritch beings of high tiers of powers 2-Strange loosing to Hulk was PIS pure and simple, nothing in how this fight happened is how Strange intelligently fights. This whole WWH thing was a massive case of PIS of everyone who got involved in this fight to the point of sillyness. Anyone who's read this story will see they're all acting like idiots and that's why Hulk won.2-You overestimate Manhattan compared to DC and Marvel cosmic and matter manipulators he's not that strong.  And if we start getting into Strange and Fate at their highest power it's not even a challenge, read up on their strongest incarnation. It would be a curbstomp. Doom is a genius and great at prep, but fighting these two at full power, he doesn't even come close to having the resources to stop them.   At standard power they still win because, their artifacts, magical might and everything else are stronger.  I like Doom well enough but he gets away with victories because of PIS sometimes it really stains an otherwise great character. "

"  @beatboks1 said:

"This ones a non event. At lowest power level ( GA appearances in More Fun Comics) Dr Fate is Dr Manhattan (move/control energy and matter in and around him bend it to his will). At his highest power levels he's = Spectre (interestingly most of his SA depictions were Spectre level unless the Spectre was present when he was shown as just below). His greates feat was to recreate existence (with a jesture)after a battle between him and a lord of Chaos destroyed it ( 1985 Immortal Dr Fate, I'm pretty sure the story in question was also a reprint from a 70's action or adventure). Dr Strange has defeated most of Marvels Gods so I don't see teh two of them being troubled even if it was Beyonder Powered Doom. "

Well I can see the problem. :P 
  
   Oh boy am I lagging. "

"I dont see that as a problem. As I said the highest powered fate was that and more.  
 
Hell for that mater the lowest powered Dr Fate (Inza Nelson) when she took over the mantle from her husband actually set up a spell that allowed anyone in her neighborhood to simply want or will something and it became reality. She did it as a form of defense for her neighbours. So basically the lowest powered Dr Fate set it up that any average joe who lived within a few city blocks from her could do exactly what the Beyonder could do in your scan. Yeah his power is going to present a real problem to Dr Fate plus help. "

  My point is, however, that he outright said that he is a puppet like everyone else. He doesn't have precognition; he is more or less one with time. He can't change it. He just exists.  It's not just that he hasn't. It's that all evidence points to the fact that he is, like I said, a puppet. He talks down to them, but he doesn't lie.  "

"and my point is that Allan Moore wasnt creating another rules bound omnipower. he was creating a flawed character.
  Allan Moor said in an interview at some point that Manhattan was designed to be a being of unlimited possibilities, but he was too busy trying to decide if he was human or not to actually tap into that potential. I think he actually said Manhattan was too busy being a scientist to play god, or something like that. 
 your failing to understand the character. He didnt lie, but he was very much into telling half truths. And the way Moore describes the character in and out of the book, he is prone to tell the "children" what they need to know or hear, instead of the brunt of what he knows. 
but all in all, just like every other character who can see the future, the only thing stopping him from trying to change it is himself.  "

   

"  @beatboks1 said:

"This ones a non event. At lowest power level ( GA appearances in More Fun Comics) Dr Fate is Dr Manhattan (move/control energy and matter in and around him bend it to his will). At his highest power levels he's = Spectre (interestingly most of his SA depictions were Spectre level unless the Spectre was present when he was shown as just below). His greates feat was to recreate existence (with a jesture)after a battle between him and a lord of Chaos destroyed it ( 1985 Immortal Dr Fate, I'm pretty sure the story in question was also a reprint from a 70's action or adventure). Dr Strange has defeated most of Marvels Gods so I don't see teh two of them being troubled even if it was Beyonder Powered Doom. "

Well I can see the problem. :P 
  
   Oh boy am I lagging. "

"@Hellos said:

"  @beatboks1 said:

"This ones a non event. At lowest power level ( GA appearances in More Fun Comics) Dr Fate is Dr Manhattan (move/control energy and matter in and around him bend it to his will). At his highest power levels he's = Spectre (interestingly most of his SA depictions were Spectre level unless the Spectre was present when he was shown as just below). His greates feat was to recreate existence (with a jesture)after a battle between him and a lord of Chaos destroyed it ( 1985 Immortal Dr Fate, I'm pretty sure the story in question was also a reprint from a 70's action or adventure). Dr Strange has defeated most of Marvels Gods so I don't see teh two of them being troubled even if it was Beyonder Powered Doom. "

Well I can see the problem. :P 
  
   Oh boy am I lagging. "

For an omnipotent who claimed to be omnipotent, he seems to be questioning his own reality. Good god if this god is real i'd kill myself in shame.  "

Now if I only had the scan of him saying "THEY ALL ARE WORSHIPPING ME!" with various religious scripts behind him. :P

*Hands you the gun* have fun.

" @Grim:   So basically, you're saying the puppet thing was wrong?   Other "time travelers" say why they won't (not can't) change the past. The reason is that they don't want to damage time. Manhattan never says this. He specifically uses the term that he is a puppet.   Note how, while he lives in the future, his "present-self" is unaware and still surprised when the future meets the present. He is aware of the future, but unable to alter it. Please don't talk to me as if I haven't read the book. I have and I've seen the movie (I saw the Ultimate Cut, which might be why I don't hate it like most people do) "

" @beatboks1 said:

"I dont see that as a problem. As I said the highest powered fate was that and more.  
 
Hell for that mater the lowest powered Dr Fate (Inza Nelson) when she took over the mantle from her husband actually set up a spell that allowed anyone in her neighborhood to simply want or will something and it became reality. She did it as a form of defense for her neighbours. So basically the lowest powered Dr Fate set it up that any average joe who lived within a few city blocks from her could do exactly what the Beyonder could do in your scan. Yeah his power is going to present a real problem to Dr Fate plus help. "

You said at best he was = to the Spectre, who has lists of people ahead of him in line, not Omnipotent across the Multiverse. He's complaining how reality isn't real to him in that scan. Unless Fate = the Presence then I have my doubts. Now unless this is the particular incarnation of Doom powered up, team two is probaby going to have trouble in round 2. "

Fate+Strange=Unbeatable 

whoever has Manhattan wins

" whoever has Manhattan wins "

Team 1 for the win in both scenarios.

Scenario 1:Team 1

Scenario 2:Dr Doom + Dr Manhattan

Strange and Fate win handily.

Doom is the one whom is more a trouble since he is a high level sorcerer.

Manhattan is weaker than Galactus furthermore Manhattan can not manipulate a soul. So Therefore since the mages can function magically without a 3D body that is relevant to the four fundamentals of the universe (a total defiance to reality) Team 1 wins.

Team 1(both rounds).

Round 1: Team 2.

Round 2: Team 1, Doctor Strange and Doctor Fate are too much at full power. Furthermore, since Doctor Manhattan "lacks feats" I cannot make a factual argument for him winning this. I'm also unsure if Doctor Doom with Beyonder's powers or as the Marquis of Death can defeat Team 1 at FULL power.

Round 1: Could go either way

Round 2 : Team 1 stomps manhattan cant hang with any of team 1 at full power

Team 2

R1 team 2

R2 Team 1 stomps

What Dr. Doom doing here? Others I can understand at least.

Wait Fate and Strange are almost omnipotent and Fate has a lord of order in his helmet whose best interesy is in keeping Fate alive. What are Doom and Manhattan supposed to do.

@grimlock: Classic Dr Fate( Kent Nelson) has the ability to destroy dimensions, recreate realities and more. He's basically like a god just like Classic Dr Strange. Once, Dr Fate destroyed the dimension the Anti-life Entity inhabits and he asked for forgiveness for the Presence before he did it(God of DC). Once a Lord of Order and Chaos teamed up to rule the universe, they destroyed almost everything except for Dr Fate(kent nelson), Inza, and their tower because changing the reality does not affect Dr. Fate(Nabu, Lord of Order), Kent and Inza. People are saying that Dr Manhattan can see into the future but can't change what he sees. Well, Dr Fate can see into the future and change it. Dr Fate saw that when Inza's demon dies, Inza dies, and Kent would never be Dr Fate again but he changed this vision and defeated Inza's demon and Totec, Lord of Chaos, brought her back to life. After that Dr Fate restored all life and restored the once destroyed Earth.

And everything Dr Fate can do, Classic Strange can match it. Dr Mahattan doesn't stand a chance against them but I'm a bit worried about the Beyonder Doom.

Round 1: Team 1

Round 2: Team 1

Darkseid vs Dr Manhattan. Darkseid wins easily right? Classic Dr Fate vs Darkseid. Dr fate wins because he was able to control and manipulate Darkseid easily when he destroyed the Anti-life entity's universe. Even Eric and Linda Strauss as Dr Fate was too much for Darkseid. Classic Dr Fate and Classic Dr Strange are too much for them.

Doom with enough prep possibly solos, Dr Manhattan is a non factor as both Classic Strange and Fate would destroy Manhattan with any prep time

Doom with time to prepare is no joke

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some scans taken from

https%3A%2F%2Fcomicvine.gamespot.com%2Fforums%2Fbattles-7%2Fdr-doom-vs-dark-phoenix-596440%2F

Dr Manhattan solos