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#1 Posted by SilverGalford (3241 posts) - - Show Bio

 


 

vs 
 

 


 

1st round : average  power  
2cond round : at full power
 
who wins?
#2 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Team 1.
Round 2: Team 1.
 
Dr. Manhattan has no place here.

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#3 Posted by Dark Zoom (2312 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" Round 1: Team 1. Round 2: Team 1.  Dr. Manhattan has no place here. "
manhattan blows them both up
#4 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" Round 1: Team 1. Round 2: Team 1.  Dr. Manhattan has no place here. "
#5 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" Round 1: Team 1. Round 2: Team 1.  Dr. Manhattan has no place here. "
manhattan blows them both up "
That's not happening. You're talking about Straqnge and Fate who, at least at classic levels, battled near-omnipotent beings.
 
Manhattan is nothing more than a medium-tier matter manipulator.
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#6 Posted by Dark Zoom (2312 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" @Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" Round 1: Team 1. Round 2: Team 1.  Dr. Manhattan has no place here. "
manhattan blows them both up "
That's not happening. You're talking about Straqnge and Fate who, at least at classic levels, battled near-omnipotent beings.  Manhattan is nothing more than a medium-tier matter manipulator. "
well if you tell me what is stoping him from doing that ill concede, are they impervious to matter manipulation or can they both reform after being blown up?
#7 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" @Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" Round 1: Team 1. Round 2: Team 1.  Dr. Manhattan has no place here. "
manhattan blows them both up "
That's not happening. You're talking about Straqnge and Fate who, at least at classic levels, battled near-omnipotent beings.  Manhattan is nothing more than a medium-tier matter manipulator. "
well if you tell me what is stoping him from doing that ill concede, are they impervious to matter manipulation or can they both reform after being blown up? "
That's assuming he's capable of blowing them up in the first place or that he'll even get the chance to try. Strange and Fate have protection spells. You think they haven't fought people capable of just blowing them up with a thought? Manhattan is a big fish in a tiny pond. Once he enters the ocean, he's for sale at the fish market. 
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#8 Posted by Dark Zoom (2312 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" @Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" @Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" Round 1: Team 1. Round 2: Team 1.  Dr. Manhattan has no place here. "
manhattan blows them both up "
That's not happening. You're talking about Straqnge and Fate who, at least at classic levels, battled near-omnipotent beings.  Manhattan is nothing more than a medium-tier matter manipulator. "
well if you tell me what is stoping him from doing that ill concede, are they impervious to matter manipulation or can they both reform after being blown up? "
That's assuming he's capable of blowing them up in the first place or that he'll even get the chance to try. Strange and Fate have protection spells. You think they haven't fought people capable of just blowing them up with a thought? Manhattan is a big fish in a tiny pond. Once he enters the ocean, he's for sale at the fish market.  "
they dont know of manhattans power set and by the time they put the spells up ''splat''
#9 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" @Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" @Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" Round 1: Team 1. Round 2: Team 1.  Dr. Manhattan has no place here. "
manhattan blows them both up "
That's not happening. You're talking about Straqnge and Fate who, at least at classic levels, battled near-omnipotent beings.  Manhattan is nothing more than a medium-tier matter manipulator. "
well if you tell me what is stoping him from doing that ill concede, are they impervious to matter manipulation or can they both reform after being blown up? "
That's assuming he's capable of blowing them up in the first place or that he'll even get the chance to try. Strange and Fate have protection spells. You think they haven't fought people capable of just blowing them up with a thought? Manhattan is a big fish in a tiny pond. Once he enters the ocean, he's for sale at the fish market.  "
they dont know of manhattans power set and by the time they put the spells up ''splat'' "
You think they always have the guard down? I think even if they were asleep they'd have some protection.
 
If they always had their guard down until they know what their enemy's powers are, they'd be taken down by a thug with a gun.
 
PS: I'm mainly speaking of classic Strange and Fate, not so much current as they both suck.
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#10 Posted by Dark Zoom (2312 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" @Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" @Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" @Dark Zoom said:
" @JediXMan said:
" Round 1: Team 1. Round 2: Team 1.  Dr. Manhattan has no place here. "
manhattan blows them both up "
That's not happening. You're talking about Straqnge and Fate who, at least at classic levels, battled near-omnipotent beings.  Manhattan is nothing more than a medium-tier matter manipulator. "
well if you tell me what is stoping him from doing that ill concede, are they impervious to matter manipulation or can they both reform after being blown up? "
That's assuming he's capable of blowing them up in the first place or that he'll even get the chance to try. Strange and Fate have protection spells. You think they haven't fought people capable of just blowing them up with a thought? Manhattan is a big fish in a tiny pond. Once he enters the ocean, he's for sale at the fish market.  "
they dont know of manhattans power set and by the time they put the spells up ''splat'' "
You think they always have the guard down? I think even if they were asleep they'd have some protection.  If they always had their guard down until they know what their enemy's powers are, they'd be taken down by a thug with a gun.  PS: I'm mainly speaking of classic Strange and Fate, not so much current as they both suck. "
ok i concede that team 1 would win. but DR Manhattan would win if he had this
 





#11 Posted by jacobyLIVE (1813 posts) - - Show Bio
@SilverGalford:  A great way to start this would be like "The Doctors are in" lol 
 
But I pick Team 1
#12 Posted by SilverGalford (3241 posts) - - Show Bio
@jacobyLIVE: 
lol  i was thinking about that.how many doctors are there in dc and marvel comics?
#13 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dark Zoom: 
 
Lol, well of course. Nothing defeats the Loebforce! Except, of course, the Toonforce.
 
Moderator
#14 Posted by Dark Zoom (2312 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" @Dark Zoom: 
 
Lol, well of course. Nothing defeats the Loebforce! Except, of course, the Toonforce.
 
"
lol
#15 Posted by capall (8130 posts) - - Show Bio

fate and strange would win here

#16 Edited by jacobyLIVE (1813 posts) - - Show Bio
@SilverGalford said:

" @jacobyLIVE: lol  i was thinking about that.how many doctors are there in dc and marvel comics? "

Lots, I believe. Can't think of many right now though :P Doctor Polaris, Doctor Sivana,  Doctor Nemesis, Doctor Druid, Doctor Decibel, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor (Wildstorm), Doctor Light
#17 Posted by Grim (2081 posts) - - Show Bio

Average power goes to Doom and Manhattan, because they dont really have an average power.
 Second round ....idk. 
 Sure, Fate and Strange are uber powerful sorcerers, but Doom and Manhattan think onm a grander scale than both of them. Manhattan EXISTS at all points at once, so unless Team one knows how (and that they need to) do that Tachyon thing to disrupt his ability to see their fight, they still dont stand much of a chance. He also cant really be destroyed or removed from the battle (he exist on a subatomic level, so sending him to another dimension is like locking him in this room

    And Doom. Doom probably has about 20 defenses to magic on him at all times. While Fate would be something new, he wouldnt he something overly challenging. And dont let Doom get ahold of that Helmet, as i wouldnt bet against his ability to wield that power...
 Fate and Strange are the same type of threat, meaning if you can find something that works against one theres a 90% chance it would work against the other. So while i would never put them out of the fight, i also wouldnt say they could definitely beat the likes of Doom and Manhattan.
#18 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8869 posts) - - Show Bio

If team 1 is operating at full power and working together. Team 2 would loose so hard it wouldn't even be funny.

#19 Edited by Grim (2081 posts) - - Show Bio
@Crom-Cruach said:

" If team 1 is operating at full power and working together. Team 2 would loose so hard it wouldn't even be funny. "

How so? Strange just got overpowered by the Hulk not to long ago. And isnt he not even Sorcerer Supreme now? and current fate doesnt know what the hell he's doing. He's good against mid tier magic beings, but hes not gonna be much more than a sidekick to Strange in this fight.
 I cant see this as a wipe. Manhattan has both precognition, uber matter manipulation, and multi-level existence on his side, and Doom has more safeguards and plans than Batman (and they're all with better tech and/or magic). Even working together, Manhattan himself can probably bring this fight to a standstill.
#20 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8869 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:
" @Crom-Cruach said:

" If team 1 is operating at full power and working together. Team 2 would loose so hard it wouldn't even be funny. "

How so? Strange just got overpowered by the Hulk not to long ago. And isnt he not even Sorcerer Supreme now? and current fate doesnt know what the hell he's doing. He's good against mid tier magic beings, but hes not gonna be much more than a sidekick to Strange in this fight.  I cant see this as a wipe. Manhattan has both precognition, uber matter manipulation, and multi-level existence on his side, and Doom has more safeguards and plans than Batman (and they're all with better tech and/or magic). Even working together, Manhattan himself can probably bring this fight to a standstill. "
 
This logic is faulty on several levels:
1-Current version of Strange is neither his average level of power, nor even a minuscule fraction of him working at full power. The Op said standard power and full power. In both cases, Fate and Strange have access to enough magic to stand still even eldritch beings of high tiers of powers
2-Strange loosing to Hulk was PIS pure and simple, nothing in how this fight happened is how Strange intelligently fights. This whole WWH thing was a massive case of PIS of everyone who got involved in this fight to the point of sillyness. Anyone who's read this story will see they're all acting like idiots and that's why Hulk won.
2-You overestimate Manhattan compared to DC and Marvel cosmic and matter manipulators he's not that strong.
 
And if we start getting into Strange and Fate at their highest power it's not even a challenge, read up on their strongest incarnation. It would be a curbstomp. Doom is a genius and great at prep, but fighting these two at full power, he doesn't even come close to having the resources to stop them. 
 
At standard power they still win because, their artifacts, magical might and everything else are stronger.
 
I like Doom well enough but he gets away with victories because of PIS sometimes it really stains an otherwise great character.
#21 Posted by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 in both rounds. 
 
Doctor Manhattan only looks good compared to people without powers.

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#22 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@Crom-Cruach said:
" @Grim said:
" @Crom-Cruach said:

" If team 1 is operating at full power and working together. Team 2 would loose so hard it wouldn't even be funny. "

How so? Strange just got overpowered by the Hulk not to long ago. And isnt he not even Sorcerer Supreme now? and current fate doesnt know what the hell he's doing. He's good against mid tier magic beings, but hes not gonna be much more than a sidekick to Strange in this fight.  I cant see this as a wipe. Manhattan has both precognition, uber matter manipulation, and multi-level existence on his side, and Doom has more safeguards and plans than Batman (and they're all with better tech and/or magic). Even working together, Manhattan himself can probably bring this fight to a standstill. "
 This logic is faulty on several levels:1-Current version of Strange is neither his average level of power, nor even a minuscule fraction of him working at full power. The Op said standard power and full power. In both cases, Fate and Strange have access to enough magic to stand still even eldritch beings of high tiers of powers 2-Strange loosing to Hulk was PIS pure and simple, nothing in how this fight happened is how Strange intelligently fights. This whole WWH thing was a massive case of PIS of everyone who got involved in this fight to the point of sillyness. Anyone who's read this story will see they're all acting like idiots and that's why Hulk won.2-You overestimate Manhattan compared to DC and Marvel cosmic and matter manipulators he's not that strong.  And if we start getting into Strange and Fate at their highest power it's not even a challenge, read up on their strongest incarnation. It would be a curbstomp. Doom is a genius and great at prep, but fighting these two at full power, he doesn't even come close to having the resources to stop them.   At standard power they still win because, their artifacts, magical might and everything else are stronger.  I like Doom well enough but he gets away with victories because of PIS sometimes it really stains an otherwise great character. "
I agree 100% with this. Especially the part I highlighted in bold. The guy is always overrated in battles. Like I said: big fish, small pond. Big fish in ocean ends up at fish market.
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#23 Posted by NightFang (10261 posts) - - Show Bio
Could go either way to me.
#24 Posted by SilverSentry (2452 posts) - - Show Bio

 
#25 Edited by Grim (2081 posts) - - Show Bio

@JediXMan: i just feel like Manhattan is being underestimated here. first off, im not saying he's as powerful as them, im saying he has more to his advantage than he does. 
 Think about it. He's already seen this fight. He's been living it his whole life. He knows what happens. The outcome is determined purely on how badly he wants to win. He could blow them up 3 days before the fight if he wanted, or he could just stand by why they figure out the  thing that will kill him because he knows he's supposed to lose this fight. Its completely up to him. And like i said, he cant really be destroyed or displaced, which is how Strange and Fate end their fights. The guy exists in several (if not every) dimension of time and space. So destroying him is like knocking over a sand castle. He can re build himself. And putting him in another dimension doesnt do much either. Existing on a subatomic level is as close to godliness as comics characters can get (as in, as long as even a molecule carrying his consciousness exists, he can make a 100% recovery).
  Most "cosmic" characters in comics just draw their power from the cosmos, or have an awareness. I think the only real way to kill Manhattan is to destroy the existence he's in, and the ones surrounding it, something that im pretty sure Fate and Strange are incapable of.
 thats what i meant by standstill. Manhattan is almost impossible to destroy, where as The Dr.s are both grounded to their one existence, and there by much easier to destroy than Manhattan.
 
ps if he and Doom are working perfectly together, Doom could probably steer him right into victory. Doom has a very epic understanding of time, dimensions, magic and technology. If push came to shove, Doom would give Manhattan the info necessary to find him in the past and let him know whats going to happen so he himself could devise a way to win before the fight ever toook place.
 Strange and Fate are powerful, but thier facing a near indestructible time traveler and an uber mastermind. This isnt as one sided as your making it out to be. 
#26 Posted by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:
" @JediXMan: i just feel like Manhattan is being underestimated here. first off, im not saying he's as powerful as them, im saying he has more to his advantage than he does.   Think about it. He's already seen this fight. He's been living it his whole life. He knows what happens. The outcome is determined purely on how badly he wants to win. He could blow them up 3 days before the fight if he wanted, or he could just stand by why they figure out the  thing that will kill him because he knows he's supposed to lose this fight. Its completly up to him. And like i said, he cant really be destroyed or displaced, which is how Strange and Fate end their fights. The guy exists in several (if not every) dimension of time and space. So destroying him is like knocking over a sand castle. He can re build himself. And putting him in another dimension doesnt do much either. Existing on a subatomic level is as close to godliness as comics characters can get (as in, as long as even a molecule carrying his consciousness exists, he can make a 100% recovery).   Most "cosmic" characters in comics just draw their power from the cosmos, or have an awareness. I think the only real way to kill Manhattan is to destroy the existence he's in, and the ones surronding it.  thats what i meant by standstill. Manhattan is almost impossible to destroy, where as The Dr.s are both grounded to their one existance, and there by much easier to destrow than Manhattan. "
Nope.
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#27 Posted by Grim (2081 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @Grim said:
" @JediXMan: i just feel like Manhattan is being underestimated here. first off, im not saying he's as powerful as them, im saying he has more to his advantage than he does.   Think about it. He's already seen this fight. He's been living it his whole life. He knows what happens. The outcome is determined purely on how badly he wants to win. He could blow them up 3 days before the fight if he wanted, or he could just stand by why they figure out the  thing that will kill him because he knows he's supposed to lose this fight. Its completly up to him. And like i said, he cant really be destroyed or displaced, which is how Strange and Fate end their fights. The guy exists in several (if not every) dimension of time and space. So destroying him is like knocking over a sand castle. He can re build himself. And putting him in another dimension doesnt do much either. Existing on a subatomic level is as close to godliness as comics characters can get (as in, as long as even a molecule carrying his consciousness exists, he can make a 100% recovery).   Most "cosmic" characters in comics just draw their power from the cosmos, or have an awareness. I think the only real way to kill Manhattan is to destroy the existence he's in, and the ones surronding it.  thats what i meant by standstill. Manhattan is almost impossible to destroy, where as The Dr.s are both grounded to their one existance, and there by much easier to destrow than Manhattan. "
Nope. "
lol ok.  as long as you have such a compelling argument.
#28 Posted by lagoon_boy (10878 posts) - - Show Bio
Team one.
#29 Posted by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:
" @Dane said:
" @Grim said:
" @JediXMan: i just feel like Manhattan is being underestimated here. first off, im not saying he's as powerful as them, im saying he has more to his advantage than he does.   Think about it. He's already seen this fight. He's been living it his whole life. He knows what happens. The outcome is determined purely on how badly he wants to win. He could blow them up 3 days before the fight if he wanted, or he could just stand by why they figure out the  thing that will kill him because he knows he's supposed to lose this fight. Its completly up to him. And like i said, he cant really be destroyed or displaced, which is how Strange and Fate end their fights. The guy exists in several (if not every) dimension of time and space. So destroying him is like knocking over a sand castle. He can re build himself. And putting him in another dimension doesnt do much either. Existing on a subatomic level is as close to godliness as comics characters can get (as in, as long as even a molecule carrying his consciousness exists, he can make a 100% recovery).   Most "cosmic" characters in comics just draw their power from the cosmos, or have an awareness. I think the only real way to kill Manhattan is to destroy the existence he's in, and the ones surronding it.  thats what i meant by standstill. Manhattan is almost impossible to destroy, where as The Dr.s are both grounded to their one existance, and there by much easier to destrow than Manhattan. "
Nope. "
lol ok.  as long as you have such a compelling argument. "
I do, everything you said is the opposite of true.
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#30 Posted by Grim (2081 posts) - - Show Bio

  @Dane:

Powers of Dr. Manhattan

Dr. Manhattan seems to have complete mastery over the manipulation of matter and energies around him, as well as a complete understanding of their make-up on the most fundamental level. This control extends to complete control of his physical person, which was generated instinctively by his mind after the accident.

Perhaps in the process of reconstructing its corporeal form, this new and wholly original entity achieved a complete mastery of all matter with the ability to shape reality by the manipulation of its basic building blocks.

Manhattan also has a unique perception of time, seemingly perceiving all events that occur in his life simultaneously. This is with exception, for certain events blur or distort his perception of certain sections of time until he becomes closer chronologically to those events. Despite his perception of time he finds himself a slave to predetermination, understanding the sequence of events that will occur as well as his own involvement in them but unable to alter the events in the past or future that he will be a part of.

It is also worth mentioning that because of his unique perception of time, energy, and matter Dr. Manhattan does not view life or humanity in the same way that normal sentient beings would. Manhattan may also be incapable of normal human emotions, as he exhibits none of the emotional traits of a normal human.

While the true extent and nature of Manhattan's power is not known (and those powers he has exhibited could be best described as god-like), here is a list of some of the powers, abilities, and traits that he has exhibited:

  •  Complete awareness and control of basic atomic particles including the particles that construct his own body.
  •  Size alteration.
  •  Density Control.
  •  Can reverse entropy.
  •  Atemporal (in terms of his perception of time).
  • Immortality.
  •  Invulnerable.
  •  Can create copies of himself which act independently of each other, but operate in an intelligent collective fashion.
  •  Creation of Force Fields.
  • Can transmute matter into different states or even different types of matter.
  •  Can create matter. 
  •  Teleportation of himself or other individuals over incredible distances (possibly other galaxies)
  •  Telekinesis
  • Intangibility 
  • Disintegration
 sorry to post the whole thing, but it just all seemed sooooo relevant in my "Team one cant kill him"  and my "he can see the fight before it happens, and therefor can actually decide what happens"arguments. Hope you dont mind.
#31 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim: 
 
His ability to see the future is useless. He can't act on it. He's a puppet.
 
I wouldn't doubt that Strange or Fate could kill him. If they can't (but I think they could), they could imprison him in a spell.
 
Manhattan is always overestimated. The guy is not that strong.
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#32 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim: Thanks for the copy and paste job. Your statements regarding Dr. Manhattan are flawed because they are in relation to Dr. Strange and Dr. Fate. Please do similar research on these characters, and the fact that they have dispatched far more powerful enemies routinely for decades on end.
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#33 Edited by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:


  •  Can create matter. 
  • Disintegration
"
Both are incorrect. He's never done either of those things. He cannot create something out of nothing. He can turn one thing into another, but not from nothing.
 
He blows people up; when has he ever disintegrated someone?
Moderator
#34 Posted by SlimJ87D (10741 posts) - - Show Bio

Dr. Manhattan said he couldn't even stop 2 Nukes from being launched flying at opposite ends. He's not as powerful as people make him out to be compared to other high level beings and Skyfathers.

#35 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@SlimJ87D said:
" Dr. Manhattan said he couldn't even stop 2 Nukes from being launched flying at opposite ends. He's not as powerful as people make him out to be compared to other high level beings and Skyfathers. "
Exactly. He's just a medium-tier matter manipulator. Nothing more.
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#36 Edited by Grim (2081 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:

" @Grim:   His ability to see the future is useless. He can't act on it. He's a puppet.  I wouldn't doubt that Strange or Fate could kill him. If they can't (but I think they could), they could imprison him in a spell.  Manhattan is always overestimated. The guy is not that strong. "

his existence is on a bit of a broad spectrum. he only has a physical form because he willed it so. They would have to trap every iota of him, or he would just recreate outside of their entrapment. 
 and maybe you dont quite understand teh implications of his ability to see the future. Lets think about this one for a sec. If you could see the future, and you saw yourself die, you would probably do something to change it. And if you successfully changed it, it would become the new future. Your altered actions would become a part of the time stream you see in the past. Now, you never saw yourself die in that time in that way. You took action so that it never happened, and now all you see is a set trajectory of actions that you have to take to continue existing.  just a thought. 
 Either way, he never changed what he saw in the future because he survived. We do not nor will we ever know what he would do if he saw himself die. He didnt save his relationships because he doesnt house emotion, making the relationships borderline irrelevant and not worth the possibly catastrophic implications saving them might have on the future he sees where the relationships end. Thats how it is for him and his precog. as long as he doesnt feel the outcome is serious, he doesnt feel the need to change it. He just becomes depressed with the fact that its not a mystery to him.
  •  Can create matter. 
  • Disintegration
"
Both are incorrect. He's never done either of those things. He cannot create something out of nothing. He can turn one thing into another, but not from nothing.  He blows people up; when has he ever disintegrated someone? "
yeah he probably cant create, but disintegration for a person who can integrate as simply as he can is kind of implied. and if you look at his "explosions", the remaining splatter is usually  missing key points of the human anatomy, implying that SOMETHING has been disintegrated. Maybe some bits are harder than others, or maybe he just likes the rorschach test-style splatters. either way, thats a fine hair your splitting.
#37 Posted by OmegaDynasty (9199 posts) - - Show Bio
@SilverSentry said:
"
 
"

That is Dr.Strangefate, and there is one person shy to make that fusion " Xavier". lol
#38 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim: 
 
Manhattan has said he is unable to change the future. He can do nothing to change it. So I'd like to know how that'll help. Show me where he changed his visions. If he never did and you say he can, then you are assuming and basically making things up.
 
That's not disintegration. Disintegration is when the thing that's disintegrated is basically turned to dust. If that was Manhattan's idea of disintegration, then it was a failed attempt.
 
I'm not "splitting hairs." You're claiming he can do something he cannot.
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#39 Posted by Grim (2081 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" @SlimJ87D said:
" Dr. Manhattan said he couldn't even stop 2 Nukes from being launched flying at opposite ends. He's not as powerful as people make him out to be compared to other high level beings and Skyfathers. "
Exactly. He's just a medium-tier matter manipulator. Nothing more. "
misunderstanding me much? i have yet to say he could was omnipotent or even a master manipulator. im saying he exists at a level that is hard to kill. short of destroying a full galaxy or removing him 120% from existence, i dont think it can be done. Fate and Strange are augmented humans, meaning their pull on the cosmic scale of things only goes as far as their existence. While Manhattan isnt a god, he exists on multiple planes. he could actively destroy these humans days before they got their powers if he was so inclined. If he thought he HAD to win this fight, why wouldnt he do these things? If he really wanted to survive this battle, do you think he wouldnt go back and stack the odds? 
 Like i said initially, the only surefire way to catch him off guard and limit his options in this fight would be to do the whole tachyon thing and hide the fight from him till the moment of the fight. And while Strange (who pulls his powers from the cosmos and various other gods, or so i read) may be able to replicate that, he would have to know enough about Manhattan to do so. If you cut off his ability to use time travel and precognition, all he's left with is mater manipulation and his subatomic level of existence, which are still good, but not as potent as knowing every action taken in the fight before they happen.
#40 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim: 
 
I didn't take away his ability to "time travel" (he does NOT time travel. He exists all at once; he cannot go back in time to change the past). You're assuming he can change the outcome of a battle by seeing the future; which he cannot.
 
Show me where his visions didn't come true. He says he's a puppet and slave to time. Show me where he ever changed the future. 
 
If you cannot, you are making this up.
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#41 Posted by FinalStar86 (8583 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:
" @Grim:   Manhattan has said he is unable to change the future. He can do nothing to change it. So I'd like to know how that'll help. Show me where he changed his visions. If he never did and you say he can, then you are assuming and basically making things up. That's not disintegration. Disintegration is when the thing that's disintegrated is basically turned to dust. If that was Manhattan's idea of disintegration, then it was a failed attempt.  I'm not "splitting hairs." You're claiming he can do something he cannot. "

Ignore Grim, he generally has no clue what he is talking about. 
#42 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@FinalStar86 said:
" @JediXMan said:
" @Grim:   Manhattan has said he is unable to change the future. He can do nothing to change it. So I'd like to know how that'll help. Show me where he changed his visions. If he never did and you say he can, then you are assuming and basically making things up. That's not disintegration. Disintegration is when the thing that's disintegrated is basically turned to dust. If that was Manhattan's idea of disintegration, then it was a failed attempt.  I'm not "splitting hairs." You're claiming he can do something he cannot. "
Ignore Grim, he generally has no clue what he is talking about.  "
Ah, good to know.
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#43 Posted by SilverSentry (2452 posts) - - Show Bio



 

 

This is what they think on this fight . 
Team 1 stomps .
#44 Posted by daak1212 (7866 posts) - - Show Bio

So why put manhattan as opposed to Doctor Voodoo?  Or Doctor Light...or Doc Ock???
#45 Edited by Grim (2081 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:

" @Grim:   Manhattan has said he is unable to change the future. He can do nothing to change it. So I'd like to know how that'll help. Show me where he changed his visions. If he never did and you say he can, then you are assuming and basically making things up. That's not disintegration. Disintegration is when the thing that's disintegrated is basically turned to dust. If that was Manhattan's idea of disintegration, then it was a failed attempt.  I'm not "splitting hairs." You're claiming he can do something he cannot. "

He can turn "dust" into a massive glass castle.  He also rebuilt himself from nothing but cosmic dust back into a body. twice. and his method of "teleportation" is to atomize the object and reconfigure it someplace else. he did it to a full audience of people, as well as Rorschach and Silk individually. if he decided not to rematerialized those people else where, they will have been successfully disintegrated. you sir are indeed splitting hairs.
 ALL TIME TRAVELERS SAY THEY CANT CHANGE THE FUTURE. Every last one. But then a bad guy goes and changes the future, or a good guy changes the future for some "good" reason.  see :

 possibly catastrophic implications saving them might have on the future he sees


 and i was just putting that out there. The downside to using a one and done comic like Watchmen is that we dont get the added bonus of learning things like this about the characters 20 years later. Dr. Fate was a character someone could tie to a chair or hit with a wrench at one point in time, but 20 years of comics and now he has a bunch of extra powers. But i would  bet that the few powers we saw him use in the watchmens world of "small fish" as someone put it earlier is probably not the extent of what he can do. your excluding him from the constant truths of almost every other time travel character in comics existence just to prove a point.
#46 Posted by daak1212 (7866 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote for Team 2.  Even with this whole Manhattan debacle I do believe that having both Doom and Manhattan can pretty much beat Strange and fate with sever ease

#47 Posted by Grim (2081 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan: your right. its not time travel. he exists in the past and the future simultaneously, meaning he can see the future and, if he wanted to, make changes in the past. you got me. its like time travel but without the actually having to travel through time. one point you.
#48 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim: 
 
So all teleporters have the ability to disintegrate people? Interesting.
 
But Manhattan never has changed the future. You're assuming he can.
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#49 Posted by JediXMan (31296 posts) - - Show Bio
@Grim said:
" @JediXMan: your right. its not time travel. he exists in the past and the future simultaneously, meaning he can see the future and, if he wanted to, make changes in the past. you got me. its like time travel but without the actually having to travel through time. one point you. "
Show me where he ever changed the future. He specifically says this line:
 
"We are all puppets. I'm just a puppet that can see the strings."
 
It never says he can change the future. 
 
So, show me. If you can't, then you are assuming.
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#50 Edited by Grim (2081 posts) - - Show Bio
@JediXMan said:

" @Grim:   So all teleporters have the ability to disintegrate people? Interesting.  But Manhattan never has changed the future. You're assuming he can. "

  ...im trying to figure out how to explain this clearer... but i just .... i just cant. If you are dematerialized in one place, and you dont rematerialized someplace else... you are disintegrated. yes? no? Most teleporters just dont test it, and most teleporting devices are designed to rematerialized their subjects anyway. but Manhattan could easily decided what to do with the atoms of the people he's dematerialized.

and yes. based off of years of Legion stories, and Rip Hunter Stories, and Back to the Future stories, and any other time traveler and/or precog you can think of who has had more than one comic/movie to showcase their capabilities. Every last one of them says "you cant change the future" and then the next story their all "someones changed the future,and now we have to go back and change the future". if you want to ignore 90% of time travel characters just because Manhattan is a more efficient time traveler than the rest of them... well, i cant stop you, but the hole in logic is still there.