#1 Posted by Uqbah (9 posts) - - Show Bio

Dr. Manhattan from The Watchmen vs The Doctor from Authority. Both seem to have very strong reality bending/altering abilities. In a fight to the death, who's winning?

#2 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

You win the Creative Battle prize. I don't really like fights with reality warpers, but at least you're thinking about people other than Superman, Batman, Hulk, Wolverine or Spider-Man. I know The Doctor well but I don't know all that much about Manhattan (I'm actually reading Watchmen now though) so I don't have an answer yet. Welcome to the Vine.

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#3 Posted by Uqbah (9 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"You win the **Creative Battle** prize. I don't really like fights with reality warpers, but at least you're thinking about people other than Superman, Batman, Hulk, Wolverine or Spider-Man. I know The Doctor well but I don't know all that much about Manhattan (I'm actually reading Watchmen now though) so I don't have an answer yet. Welcome to the Vine."

Thanks, I just re-read The Watchmen and it had me thinking about this battle. Both of them are probably among my favorite characters in terms of ability of all time. My gut tells me to go with The Doctor, but Manhattan has shown himself to be pretty powerful himself.

#4 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont know much about the Doctor but if I remember correctly Manhattan is actually living at all points of time simultaneously, so that might give him the advantage against the Doctor.

#5 Posted by Hellstormer (284 posts) - - Show Bio

Forever says:

"I dont know much about the Doctor but if I remember correctly Manhattan is actually living at all points of time simultaneously, so that might give him the advantage against the Doctor."

Would someone please explain to me how that works or is beneficial. I never understood that.

I think Manhatten, but it would be a universe destroying battle.

#6 Posted by Uqbah (9 posts) - - Show Bio

Manhattan doesn't exist in all points of time simultaneously, if my interpretation is correct. Instead he, unlike the rest of us humans, recognizes that time is not linear. I remember him explaining to Laurie that time is like a jewel that humans insist on viewing on side at a time when the whole thing is perfectly visible. I take that as being different from existing in all points at once.

#7 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

The only way I can see that being useful is if The Doctor went back in time to kill him before he was born, because since he exists at every point in time (if that's true), he'd still exist. However, I read that he can see the future, not that he's everywhen at once. I also think there's a limit to what he can do. Looked at his Wikipedia (forgive me) article and it says, "At one point in the Watchmen story-line it is stated that, in the event of a nuclear war, he would be capable of destroying upwards of 60% of all Soviet nuclear missiles while at the same time 'destroying' large areas of Russia." That's a limit to his power. The Doctor has no limit (or if he does it's too high for it to matter) and could easily top that feat.

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#8 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Uqbah says:

"Manhattan doesn't exist in all points of time simultaneously, if my interpretation is correct. Instead he, unlike the rest of us humans, recognizes that time is not linear. I remember him explaining to Laurie that time is like a jewel that humans insist on viewing on side at a time when the whole thing is perfectly visible. I take that as being different from existing in all points at once. "

Well it's been a long time since I read the Watchmen. I remembered it as him being able to influence his past actions because of his being out of time. But it's been a long time so I'll bow to your knowledge.

#9 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Hellstormer says:

"Forever says:
"I dont know much about the Doctor but if I remember correctly Manhattan is actually living at all points of time simultaneously, so that might give him the advantage against the Doctor."
Would someone please explain to me how that works or is beneficial. I never understood that. I think Manhatten, but it would be a universe destroying battle."

It's like precognition because even years before he fights the Doctor he knows that he will fight him and if he knows that he would die then, he can plan to keep that from happening. When Ozymandius was trying to get his plan to work, he had to lure Manhatten into a tachyon field to throw off this power.

Buckshot says:

"The only way I can see that being useful is if The Doctor went back in time to kill him before he was born, because since he exists at every point in time (if that's true), he'd still exist. However, I read that he can see the future, not that he's everywhen at once. I also think there's a limit to what he can do. Looked at his Wikipedia (forgive me) article and it says, "At one point in the Watchmen story-line it is stated that, in the event of a nuclear war, he would be capable of destroying upwards of 60% of all Soviet nuclear missiles while at the same time 'destroying' large areas of Russia." That's a limit to his power. The Doctor has no limit (or if he does it's too high for it to matter) and could easily top that feat."

I didn't remember them limiting Manhatten but if that's the case I'll bow to your knowledge of the Doctor and give this fight to him. It would be a tough fight though.

#10 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Forever says:

"It's like precognition because even years before he fights the Doctor he knows that he will fight him and if he knows that he would die then, he can plan to keep that from happening. When Ozymandius was trying to get his plan to work, he had to lure Manhatten into a tachyon field to throw off this power.I didn't remember them limiting Manhatten but if that's the case I'll bow to your knowledge of the Doctor and give this fight to him. It would be a tough fight though."

I don't think the precog would help. According to another bio I read (this time I used the CV one, yay for CV!), he doesn't change things even if he knows what's coming. And about the limit, I'm just saying, they put a number on what he could do, "upwards of 60%". If he could do anything, why not just say he would destroy all the missiles? Anyway, like I said, I haven't read all of Watchmen so what I'm saying is just what I've read online and not directly from the book. I'm trying to use info I think I can trust (the wiki quote said it came directly from the book, for example), but if I'm wrong, just point it out to me. From the info I have (internet and what little I've read of the books so far) I don't see anything The Doctor couldn't do.

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#11 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"I don't think the precog would help. According to another bio I read (this time I used the CV one, yay for CV!), he doesn't change things even if he knows what's coming. And about the limit, I'm just saying, they put a number on what he could do, "upwards of 60%". If he could do anything, why not just say he would destroy *all* the missiles? Anyway, like I said, I haven't read all of Watchmen so what I'm saying is just what I've read online and not directly from the book. I'm trying to use info I think I can trust (the wiki quote said it came directly from the book, for example), but if I'm wrong, just point it out to me. From the info I have (internet and what little I've read of the books so far) I don't see anything The Doctor couldn't do."

Don't worry, I'll blame you later if youre wrong. ;)

As I remember the main reason he didn't do anything with his "precog" was because it was like everything was happening at the same time but his primary focus was on one particular point in time. So he would say something to someone he would be talking to twenty years from now and not notice that he said it twenty years ahead of time. And he was not in complete control of the time that he was focusing on. That's the way I saw it anyway. So, even though he never did it in the series (that I can remember), I think it is possible that he could focus on one moment in time and he would have the motivation to do so this time, because otherwise would mean the end of his existence. Not that this would mean that he would win though. I'm still inclined to believe that youre right about their limits or lack thereof in power.

#12 Posted by Darkchild (40624 posts) - - Show Bio

hmm well you know what i just started readiing Watchmen and i would have to say Manhattan would win

#13 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkchild says:

"hmm well you know what i just started readiing Watchmen and i would have to say Manhattan would win"

Do you have some knowledge of the other combatant to compare that too?

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#14 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkchild says:

"hmm well you know what i just started readiing Watchmen and i would have to say Manhattan would win"

Really? Have you read much Authority? I haven't so I dont know enough about the Doctor.

#15 Posted by Darkchild (40624 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah i have Authority i liked the Doctor but i would go with Manhattan

#16 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkchild says:

"yeah i have Authority i liked the Doctor but i would go with Manhattan"

Any reason? Anything Manhattan can do that The Doctor can't?

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#17 Posted by Darkchild (40624 posts) - - Show Bio

well.... i think the Doctor had more of a how u say "weakness" since he was a junkie where Manhattans just Manhattan i know both are very powerful high or not but i would personally go with Manhattan

#18 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkchild says:

"well.... i think the Doctor had more of a how u say "weakness" since he was a junkie where Manhattans just Manhattan i know both are very powerful high or not but i would personally go with Manhattan"

I had forgotten he was a junkie. Was it to the extent that it seriously affected his "work"?

#19 Posted by Darkchild (40624 posts) - - Show Bio

crap ur making me remember 3 months ago when i got it dammit

i think it just made him pissy and paranoid. ANd made him not want to attend fights or meetings

#20 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

A few thoughts about that "high" thing. Him being high all the time was just a way for him to not be able to solve every problem with a snap of his fingers. He was handicapped for the story. Regardless, I'll give it to you since it was a constant character flaw. However, Jeroen always got over that when it was time for him to get to business. I think this fight would be one of those times. None of this really matters though because Jeroen is not the current Doctor. There's a new one (has been for a while) and he's not handicapped like Jeroen was, and he's already shown himself to be more powerful that his predecessor. (The current Doctor gets the power and experience of all the Doctors before them so each is a great deal more powerful than the last.)

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#21 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkchild says:

"crap ur making me remember 3 months ago when i got it dammit i think it just made him pissy and paranoid. ANd made him not want to attend fights or meetings "

lol. Sorry for stressing your memory DC. I have to get the Authority and read up.

#22 Posted by Darkchild (40624 posts) - - Show Bio

i know that buck i know its an arabian i think Hanaradhababa wut ever cant remember his name but i was refering to Jeron i know he did all that but... he did not want to be the doctor in the first place or on the team to begin with. He wanted to be left alone.

#23 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, like I said, he may not have wanted to do anything, but he always did when he had to (when they stopped holding him back so other characters could shine) and that's the situation he'd be in here. And the new Doctor is Habib Ben Hassan.

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#24 Posted by Darkchild (40624 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah dont u hate when they hold characters back so that minor menial ones can shine i hate that

and thanks for the name it would have irritatied me all night

#25 Posted by Prodigal Son (3473 posts) - - Show Bio

Though it pains me to say it, I believe the Doctor would spank Manhattan.

Thanks for posting a non-boring battle.


Post Edited:2007-06-29 00:52:57

#26 Posted by the creator (8577 posts) - - Show Bio

Manhatten would win. Manhatten is aware of his actions and those of the people that interact with him in the past, present and future. He is not aware of actions that do not interact with him - hence he is not all knowing. This knowledge can be blocked/blurred as in watchmen but is hard to accomplish. Manhatten brings himself back from being disintegrated - this was his first trick and is his easiest. Basically he has complete atomic control but his powers are finite - just massive in scale. His senses are also hugely expanded and include not just his 'time sense' but spatial awareness, energy detection etc. When it is discussed that he could destroy 60% of the inbound nukes and large areas of the Russia please note that this is a military scientist assessment of what he could do - an estimate. he may have been capable of more. However unlike some reality manipulators he needed to sense each nuke to destroy it. This would mean tracking thousands of incoming missiles, travelling from several thousands of miles apart. In theory he would be aware of his fight with the Doctor years before it happened but he would not do anything to change the outcome as to him it had already happened. The Doctor on the other hand has been shown that he can hold the position of an object as big as italy in place while the Earth rotates and thus destroy Italy. This was the limit of his power (he passed out). He has not shown that he can time travel and his powers rely on his perceptions and his human reaction time - perceive it and react in time. Manhatten is far from Human now and this, with all his knowledge, gives him the edge.
Post Edited:2007-06-29 07:55:32

#27 Posted by Sling Shot (3560 posts) - - Show Bio

Dr. Manhattan is his abilities. The Doctor is still working it out. Both are stoopid powerful but as in most things initiative will be cheif.

#28 Posted by Uqbah (9 posts) - - Show Bio

Something I was wondering about, can Manhattan acutally be killed. He's been show to generate from almost nothing. You know The Doctor can die. Its very difficult to finish off someone who possibly cannot die.

#29 Posted by Uqbah (9 posts) - - Show Bio

Post Deleted.

#30 Posted by Satyrquaze (4542 posts) - - Show Bio

Dr. Manhattan can rebuild himself from complete atomic dispersal... the Doctor cannot.

#31 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

The_Creator says:

"Manhatten would win. Manhatten is aware of his actions and those of the people that interact with him in the past, present and future. He is not aware of actions that do not interact with him - hence he is not all knowing. This knowledge can be blocked/blurred as in watchmen but is hard to accomplish. Manhatten brings himself back from being disintegrated - this was his first trick and is his easiest. Basically he has complete atomic control but his powers are finite - just massive in scale. His senses are also hugely expanded and include not just his 'time sense' but spatial awareness, energy detection etc. When it is discussed that he could destroy 60% of the inbound nukes and large areas of the Russia please note that this is a military scientist assessment of what he could do - an estimate. he may have been capable of more. However unlike some reality manipulators he needed to sense each nuke to destroy it. This would mean tracking thousands of incoming missiles, travelling from several thousands of miles apart. In theory he would be aware of his fight with the Doctor years before it happened but he would not do anything to change the outcome as to him it had already happened. The Doctor on the other hand has been shown that he can hold the position of an object as big as italy in place while the Earth rotates and thus destroy Italy. This was the limit of his power (he passed out). He has not shown that he can time travel and his powers rely on his perceptions and his human reaction time - perceive it and react in time. Manhatten is far from Human now and this, with all his knowledge, gives him the edge.
Post Edited:2007-06-29 07:55:32"

Thanks for clearing up the 60% thing, however, I don't see anything saying that the assessment was incorrect (meaning that he could do more than what was said) and I still don't see anything The Doctor cannot do. The holding of Italy was not his limit and he did not pass out, he got a nosebleed. Even then, holding an entire country still in space while the rest of the world continues on its orbit around the sun is greater than anything I've read of Manhattan (correct me if there's something better than that). Your statement about time travel is incorrect, he's done it at least twice and there was no effort at all. He said moving through the fourth dimension was as easy as moving in the normal 3. Also, the statement about perceptions isn't exactly true. It's been said a few times that he has more than the regular human senses and is able to perceive the universe in more ways than any normal human. I think the number of senses was one time put at 17, but I'm not sure. Like Manhattan, The Doctor has also survived death. Even with no apparent superspeed or knowledge of the attack before it happened, he was able to easily reassemble himself after being blown to bits, even talking while he did it. He also continued fighting while the top of his head was blown off and his brain was destroyed on another occasion.


Post Edited:2007-06-29 13:23:23

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#32 Posted by TheDrifter (26555 posts) - - Show Bio

Found it Methos! :)

#33 Posted by Methos (40103 posts) - - Show Bio

there we go...

i remember it being longer...

ahh well...

M

#34 Posted by King Saturn (224189 posts) - - Show Bio
I am learning hard towards Doctor Manhattan since he can replicate himself... otherwise there really isnt much difference between these two characters... they are both powerful reality warpers
#35 Posted by The Devil Tiger (1263 posts) - - Show Bio
Hellstormer said:
"

Forever says:

"I dont know much about the Doctor but if I remember correctly Manhattan is actually living at all points of time simultaneously, so that might give him the advantage against the Doctor."

Would someone please explain to me how that works or is beneficial. I never understood that.

I think Manhatten, but it would be a universe destroying battle.

"

  It's not beneficial, cause the Doctors say's himself he's a puppet, and that the only difference with the other mortal is that he can see the thread....
  I think the Doctor has an edge, cause he works magic, that's implinyg that he work with what exist, and wath doesn't,  and Doctor Manhattan is working with only reality on a nuclear level. He cannot summon power from outer space, not really go to ohter dimension, etc... 
  Sure, he can re-make himself after being disperse, but if the Doctor say's the concious of Doc. anhattan is only a light of a Candle, Manhattan is in really big trouble.

#36 Posted by -MAJESTY- (29 posts) - - Show Bio
DOCTOR MANHATTAN.
#37 Posted by SeSAW (3677 posts) - - Show Bio

But as far as powerlevel the Doctor seems to have a wider range and more powerful powers than even Mannhattan does. Don't quote me on this because i am just starting to learn more about Mannhattan and haven't seen all of his feats, but from what ive seen the Doctor can easily top him.

#38 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

The Naked Blue Man with the Reality warping power and Movie Deal!

Plus he has a six-pack!