Dr. Manhattan vs Superman

QFT

Lol.

Yes, according to Adrian's popular theory. Dr. M could manipulate all the Soviet nuclear missile launch sites though so no nuke could be fired...fight smarter, not harder.

Unfortunately Dr. Manhattan would win. Superman wouldn't be able to hit him and Dr. manhattan would see him coming years from their first encounter.

dr manhatten superman is never the type to go with the big finish hed try to incopacitate him with lighter moves but docter midnight having no himan emotions would simply proceed to distort and dissasembal supermans moleucular makeup

Superman's speed would be easily countered, Doc has (and I quote) witnessed events so tiny and so fast they can hardly be said to have occurred at all.

Doc can go intangible so Supes can't hurt him. If he does hurt him, he can regenerate with amazing speed.

Doc can probably diassemble Supe's molecules and turn him otno a stuffed teddy bear so yeah, Doc wins.

superman has resisted transmutation, Doc has never encountered someone of Superman's durability.

Superman's best case scenario in this battle would be a stalemate.

@spacemash said:

Don't make stuff up...

What? Why are you pulling things out of your ass? I wouldn't even consider Manhattan on Odin's level, and Odin isn't one level behind omnipotence.

And Cap can see faster than most speedy objects, but it doesn't make him a speedster. Fact is, Dr M has never once displayed superhuman speed. The ability to see, and the ability to move are two separate things. As for regeneration...yeah, if his intrinsic field is removed, sure, he can rebuild his body quite fast. Yet you never see him take any other form of attack, so this regeneration business is just conjecture.

The molecular bit, already been touched on. At best, this is still a stalemate.

Oh, you mean the ability that does him no good in a battle since he cannot control things when he acts on them? Yeah, it's useless in a battle thread.

The details on that ability are found here: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/wyldsong/blog/dr-manhattan-the-truth-behind-the-feats-aka-why-so/61001/

Here is pertinent bit from that thread:

"Sooo...I have been on the forums and threads and have seen a ton of misinformation on Manhattan from people who have read these books. There is honestly very little that changes his overall power level in these books, except for discussions about one ability, and this time I am going into scans to show the scope of what happens.

Could Manhattan change time is he wanted to? Well, here is the answer:

He changed an event, which fractured the quantum reality, and in each new timeline/reality, other choices were made which further fractured those timelines/realities creating further timelines/realities, so forth and so on. As shown in the book, in one reality he went with Silk and in another he still went with Rorschach -- a fractured quantum reality wherein he is the quantum observer. Each reality is equally real and valid.

He doesn't just observe and decide what happens. He can travel to points in his own timeline and like a time traveler, can change events, but as is shown in the story, when he does so, he messes things up royally:

That should give an idea of the scope of what he did, each and every choice he could and will make causes a fracture, and each and every reality ends up like the below:

You see, according to his words: "I know that I can ride the timeline back and forth between the future and the moment of my creation..."

He is in effect a time traveler along his own timeline and has shown the ability to change things and impose his will on them, which has shown the effect of fracturing quantum reality. It's the whole basis of the story, hence the planet blowing up at the end of issue number 2 and him going to fix things, the main true blue (har har) Manhattan lost control of things. He changed an event in the past and due to his unique position in the timestream fractured the quantum reality (an unexpected event since he thought he would change one tiny slip of paper and the timeline would move on from there changed) -- which obviously he had no control over once it started happening hence the end of the world scenario and his need to go and fix things.

When he states he is a slave to predetermination, there is a good reason for it as you can plainly see.

But it doesn't stop there. I have always theorized that Manhattan lost this time travel aspect after the tachyon incident with Ozy. Here we have some proof:

He cannot wait to see what this new box reveals? If he still maintained the ability, shouldn't he already know? Based on Manhattan's thoughts in the scan, he says he cannot wait to see what this new box entails, showing he doesn't already know. It looks like the tachyons disrupted this ability of Manhattan's for good, so he lives in the here and now it seems, no more time travel along his own timeline.

And for those wondering if he did indeed create life? Read the scan above. He picks some material from the planet up, he evolved and altered some microscopic forms, made some goop out of it, and let it go to see what it becomes. Now we don't know of the quality of it, or what it will even become, but there it is."

Like I said, useless in battle. He sees Supes hitting him, guess what? He get's hit, even if he changes time, and he screws things up royally.

@wyldsong: He can always turn intangible. Superman can't do jack to him once he phases.

@the_red_viper: And that is exactly why I stated that this is a stalemate at best.

Superman .

Doctor Manhatten, without too much trouble

Superman has been able to phase for years.

Superman got this due to lack of feats by Doctor Manhattan. He's currently a weaker version of Captain Atom.

Manhattan wins

Though Doctor Manhattens feats involve destroying and creating on an atomic level, and most versions of Superman wouldn't survive something like that.

Everything in this world is made of molecules, which Dr. M can control. Even Superman is made of molecules. Dr. M could just simply erase Supermans molecules from exsistence which is what you usually see when you think Dr. M is making people explode.

Well, Supes is a lot faster than the Dr., and probably a lot stronger too. However, Manhattan has telekinesis,atom and molecular manipulation,and intangiblity up on Supes. Hard to say.

NOT A BATTLE! It's a no win situation, neither can harm each other.

Stalemate. Superman can't hurt Dr. M, while Supes has shown vulnerability to transmutation and MM, so it's a deadlock.

Manhattan would wreck Superman. They're not even on the same level.

This argument has been going on for over 5 years. I think a more pertinent question would be Dr M. + Supes vs the the longevity of comic vine battle posts.

Plus being a being who can change any kind of molecular makeup, Dr M surely would have the capability to make himself stronger than supes?

The guy with the Blue Dong.

Just remember superman has the ability to go back in time..... as shown in comics and the movies. that would f**k DR.Manhattan up

The biggest conundrum is if Dr Manhattan knew Superman was gonna zap him by seeing the tachyon generator, it means superman will make the generator no matter what and therefore has had the prep time. The only way the generator would not be made is a future of him killing Superman before the generator.

But if he only knows about the generator by seeing the future, surely the killing of superman would be random? He would only see a future past Superman's death and not know the alternative timeline that gives him the reason to kill supes. Would Dr Manhattan know what Superman was planning besides telling the future? Is he an all knowing being? Because I'm not so sure Dr Manhattan would kill superman for no reason. And if Dr Manhattan found out about Superman an alternative way, surely enough time would go by if Supes kept it a secret...

Possible scenario:

Dr Manhattan knows everything about matter. At a scientific standing point memories come from nerves and synapses, therefore Dr Manhattan cannot read minds. Superman with superhuman intelligence memorizes the blueprints for the generator. He then collects components over time, low key. When everything is ready, uses light speed to manufacture the device. Dr Manhattan appears and gets zapped.

Only problem of this is if Manhattan can deconstruct this in time before the blast. If he is benevolent Superman has no chance.

Dr. Manhattan is the epitome of an OP character.

can Manhattan Manipulate superman molecules ? i ve heard that superman resist a matter , moleculer manipulation right in his chest

and he resist also magic transmulation . is that right ? :/

@braiden: wow, I amay starting to think no one really knows anything about dr.manhattan. he has the ability to exist any where and every where simultaneously as well as perceiving any information about any one thing. Even if superman was to fly faster than the speed of light dr.manhattan would be able to detect and destroy superman. No matter how strong or fast super is manhattan can become stronger and faster. Even if superman d I do create tachyon tech it wouldn't matter because dr.manhattan can never cease to exist because he exists on a cosmic level, which means he is literally a piece of never ending cosmic energy.

So yeah supes could use tachyon or accelerate him self to interfere with manhattans ability to control his powers but he could never strip him of his powers. Even when Oz used tachyons against manhattan it merely effected his ability to utilize his powers. If it would have stripped him of his powers he wouldn't have been able to refirm later he would have just died. Not to mention manhattan could literally use his intelligence to create a machine to shield him from any tachyon interference tech. He could also literally just break superman down on a molecular level completely erasing supes. There is no outcome that would leave superman victorious because Manhattan literally cannot die, be destroyed or cease to exist where as superman can. Even if superman could get the upper hand he would only temporarily be victorious.

Now I'd any one would have studied up further on dr.manhattan before just declaring superman would win automatically you would know that dr.manhattan has further perfected his powers and is no longer effected by tachyons except for the fact that they still render his ability to see future time line events. There is literally nothing superman can do.

Just read Final Crisis. Morrison made Allen Atom a Doctor Manhattan clone, so we can guess where he stood on it.

Earth 4 Superman completely dominated Ultraman.

manhattan

Dr. Manhattan

Dr. Manhattan wins

Characters that are excessively powered create a problem for writers. How do you create dramatic tension if the superhero is so powerful that they can effortlessly defeat any enemies? All superheros have to be written with limitations, so that some form of conflict can be created where the outcome is in doubt; this includes Superman, or else his stories would be pretty boring.

Dr Manhattan is an exception to this. ‘Watchmen’ was a one-off story, and the characters didn’t have to be written with an eye to sustaining ongoing rivalries. On the contrary; they were created to explore specific ideas or concepts. In Dr Manhattan’s case, the idea was what it might be like if a person really did gain high-level superpowers? Both from the psychological effects on the person, and the effects it would have on the global political situation?

This is enhanced in the ‘Watchmen’ universe as Dr Manhattan is the only being shown as having any superpowers at all, and the powers he is shown as having are so very great, frequently described in the story as ‘God-like’. Without any other superpowered beings to define the scope of his powers against, and only 12 issues of the series for him to demonstrate them, the full extent of them is unclear; Moore only wrote enough about them to allow Dr Manhattan to serve the purpose he has in the story.

However, although Dr Manhattan is short on feats, Moore did offer some clues as to how powerful he intended him to be. For example:

- In Dr Manhattan’s first appearance (IV p11) he is shown in a pose echoing 'Christ the Redeemer'

https://www.travelblog.org/Photos/6996252

http://www.comicvine.com/images/1300-634021

- Jonathan Osterman’s surname translates as ‘Easter-man’

- On the final page of part III, Dr Manhattan is shown on Mars, having abandoned Earth on the verge of a nuclear conflict, with Genesis 18, v25 : ‘shall not the judge of all the Earth do right?’ underneath the box- clearly inferring a parallel between Manhattan and God.

- Part IV, showing the genesis of Dr Manhattan, is titled ‘Watchmaker’- a reference to Osterman’s background, but also referencing the watchmaker analogy for God- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmaker_analogy

- Dr Manhattan is shown as literally walking on water in part XII, page 25

- In the appendix to part IV, page II, Dr Manhattan is said to have ’complete mastery of all matter; able to shape reality by the manipulation of its basic building blocks’- ie he can quite literally turn water into wine.

- In part XII, page 27, Dr Manhattan states he is leaving the galaxy. Veidt/Ozymandias says he thought Manhattan had regained his interest in human life; Dr Manhattan says, ‘Yes I have. I think perhaps I’ll create some’. And since he is aware of his future, he clearly does.

So its speculation, but it seems pretty clear to me that Moore’s intent was that Dr Manhattan is a God. Given that. with no need to create limitations on his powers, other than tachyons preventing him from seeing that part of his timeline clearly, its seems likely that his powers *are* probably close to limitless.

So back to the battle: the best Superman can hope for is a stalemate. And given Dr Manhattan can teleport matter, including living people, anywhere he wants, he could probably just dump Superman into the heart of a red star- if he did, would that strip Superman of his powers and leave him instantly annihilated? Alternatively, he could similarly teleport him into a black hole, or supernova, or the far side of the universe. My best guess is, that Dr Manhattan win this one.

Stalemate

Captain Atom.

Dr. Manhattman.

@no_more_scotch_eggs: Please read the battle forum rules...

Because they way you're thinking isn't how things actually work on the battle forums.

Also, how would Dr. Manhattan even know to put Superman into the core of a red sun? How would that make sense to him when in his world light based radiation is just light based radiation regardless of the color? It would require him to first understand Superman's alien biological structure which defies every law of physics he knows in his universe, then comprehend physical principles that make no sense, and then teleport a being a distance he has never shown being able to teleport....

Superman beats the featless blue naked dude

@boringperson:

thanks for the reply, boringperson. its my first post on the forum, so advice on house rules always appreciated. i did read the battle forum rules, not sure how my post falls outside them.

having read a lot of the previous posts on the topic, it was clear that there is lack of clarity over Dr Manhattan's powers, which is not surprising given the limited information in the source material. contrast superman, with nearly 80 years of comic to reference!

however, Alan Moore is well known for using symbolism and making reference to other works in order to make points more subtly- eg even the title 'Watchmen' does this, the title of part VI ('The Abyss Gazes Also') references Nietzsche. The points i raise are to show that Moore (to my mind anyway) is clearly signalling that Dr Manhattan is not just a superpowered being, he is a de facto God- and this is relevant to the likely outcome of the battle.

Re the point about teleporting Superman- it would depend whether he had 'prep time' to make inquiries about Superman's weaknesses. He would be aware that red light corresponds to electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength of 620-750nm, and which starts emit light of this wavelength, so if he were to find out about this weakness, i see no reason why he wouldnt be able to exploit it. And superman is, in the end, made of atoms; if Dr Manhattan has complete control over the atomic structure of matter, that would include unusual states, as in the end they are still just collections of subatomic particles held together by nuclear forces (and an 'intrinsic field')

The matter of distance is covered in my points above- he states that he is going to leave earth to go to another galaxy, and the nearest such candidate is 80000 light years away. If he means the nearest non-satellite galaxy, that's Andromeda, at 2.5 million light years away. After the first million light years, i think its reasonable to assume that distance isnt a limiting factor to this capability, and that he can move, or move others, wherever he wants. There are plenty of red stars and black holes in that area for him to choose- though i think it would be more in character for him to just move Superman far enough away that he would not be able to return,

once again thanks for the reply, its always disappointing when you post something and no-one seems to notice...!

Manhattan gets sent to the Phantom Zone.

@no_more_scotch_eggs: No worries.

Unfortunately, on the Vine the powerset of the individual is only their potential. Unless they've --shown-- consistent willingness to utilize their powerset in a particular way and the ability to utilize their powerset to the fullest of their stated power level, it's treated as though their stated powers were just bloviating.

For example, most cases of extrapolation of powers to include uses that they have never actually been --shown-- using are considered invalid in terms of their use in argument. For example, in a fight between say, Green Lantern Guy Gardner and Thor, the argument that Thor is a potent energy drainer often arises. Guy Gardner's ring obviously has the capability to energy drain as well, but Guy Gardner has never been shown doing so, so his claim to be able to do so is weak. Even if he is given the benefit of the doubt, he has no showings of energy draining so the energy drain he would be tenuously ccapable of utilizing would be featless and automatically be considered inferior to Thor's.

This would be the case in a Vine battle even though Green Lantern Guy Gardner --certainly-- has it within his powerset to counter drain energy on a similar or superior caliber as compared to Thor.

This also applies to character statements. A character might say that they are capable of some such degree of some such power's usage, but said character may be lying, be lacking in credibility, and even if they are telling the truth as a credible source... if they still have no showings of actually utilizing said spoken power to said spoken degree, how can we really trust them to be able to do so in a real time battle situation?

That's how battles on the battle forums work. It doesn't matter if it doesn't seem to make sense that a seemingly all powerful matter manipulator would be unable to matter manipulate anything, even if it were an alien with unknown physical properties. The thing is, as other matter manipulators have failed to matter manipulate Superman, Superman has the upper hand in terms of argument. To say that Dr. Manhattan COULD matter manipulate a Superman level durability being would require that Dr. Manhattan had previously shown the ability to do so. No such example could possibly exist as no such being exists in the Watchmen universe. It doesn't matter to the Vine argument that Dr. Manhattan was created to be a God, because even Gods have their place in battles. Pedigree is nothing without feats to prove the statements provided by the pedigree to be accurate.

While Dr. Manhattan might SEEM a godlike figure in his own Universe, even if we believed the logical conclusions of his many poorly substantiated statements, he'd STILL only be slightly above Powerhouse tier and definitively beneath beings like Captain Atom and Flash, much less Spectre or Odin level beings.

Being godlike alone is simply not enough in a universe full of Gods.

@king_saturn: Dr Manhattan.

I doubt Manhattan can blow up a Kryptonian. Supes will blitz him

Really now?

Y'see, I'm all for Superman beating people with a one-trick-pony powerset, but Dr freaking Manhattan?