Dr Manhattan vs Firestorm

@Illuminatus said:

@TheGodKiller3 said:

Who said I was using them in a debate ? Off-Panel or not , they still happened . They are still cannon . I am not using them as an argument as to why Manhattan wins, Firestorm has better feats , thats why I give him my vote.

I was merely clarifying the facts about the character to another poster . Plus you didn't answer a single one of my questions in my previous question , apart from the same "Off-Panel" argument .

What were the questions you were asking? They didn't even make sense the first time around, which is why I responded with, "What are you talking about?".

"Didn't you yourself mention that Manhattan was an energy being with a consciousness? Then doesn't that hypothetically enable him to perform all of those aforementioned feats ? Doesn't he fact that they took place (off-panel, nevertheless) , and that there is no evidence to the contrary , confirm that ?"

Since you were questioning the context in which these took place , that implies that Manhattan might even have had some assistance while performing them . That's why i asked these questions .

"Didn't you yourself mention that Manhattan was an energy being with a consciousness? Then doesn't that hypothetically enable him to perform all of those aforementioned feats ? Doesn't he fact that they took place (off-panel, nevertheless) , and that there is no evidence to the contrary , confirm that ?"

Since you were questioning the context in which these took place , that implies that Manhattan might even have had some assistance while performing them . That's why i asked these questions .

@Illuminatus said:

(which is silly, seeing as suns really don't have a "surface" to speak of)

Technically , the Sun does have a surface , just not a solid one , like a planet's .

Since you were questioning the context in which these took place , that implies that Manhattan might even have had some assistance while performing them . That's why i asked these questions .

I never once made the implication that Manhattan had any assistance while performing these off-panel feats. I'm simply saying that we don't know the circumstances surrounding them, so we should be apprehensive about using them as legitimate arguments, which several users in several Manhattan threads have attempted to do before.

Read the (underlined)statement again . Especially the highlighted , italicized word in it .

@Illuminatus said:

(which is silly, seeing as suns really don't have a "surface" to speak of)

Technically , the Sun does have a surface , just not a solid one , like a planet's .

Since you were questioning the context in which these took place , that implies that Manhattan might even have had some assistance while performing them . That's why i asked these questions .

I never once made the implication that Manhattan had any assistance while performing these off-panel feats. I'm simply saying that we don't know the circumstances surrounding them, so we should be apprehensive about using them as legitimate arguments, which several users in several Manhattan threads have attempted to do before.

Read the (underlined)statement again . Especially the highlighted , italicized word in it .

@Illuminatus said:

@TheGodKiller3 said:

@Illuminatus said:

(which is silly, seeing as suns really don't have a "surface" to speak of)

Technically , the Sun does have a surface , just not a solid one , like a planet's .

Since you were questioning the context in which these took place , that implies that Manhattan might even have had some assistance while performing them . That's why i asked these questions .

I never once made the implication that Manhattan had any assistance while performing these off-panel feats. I'm simply saying that we don't know the circumstances surrounding them, so we should be apprehensive about using them as legitimate arguments, which several users in several Manhattan threads have attempted to do before.

Read the (underlined)statement again . Especially the highlighted , italicized word in it .

Okay, I read it... Are we done here or do you have any other questions?

Sure .

The argument about Feats is normally a pretty good one...except when a character like Manhattan is involved...his lack of feats has more to do with his limited appearances than any lack of power or ability.  (although, I would say that getting atomized and then reconstituting yourself should be considered something of a feat) 
 
Based on Powers...I think Firestorm loses.

@Illuminatus said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

what's hilarious is you wrote something illegible and then expect me to understand the point you are trying to make. That is why I used the bold button, what exactly are you saying in that "sentence" it makes no sense. I'm not going on and on about anything, to the contrary. You can't even understand simply logic. It's ridiculous to you because you don't seem to grasp simple concepts as much as you would like to believe. In fact you are technically arguing with yourself, as you keep insisting I am comparing TOAA, when as I explained earlier that I am using your flawed logic, and as you see it makes no sense thus my point has been made

Oh no some nerd said a bunch of other nerds don't take me seriously about fictional characters. What ever will I do? Grow up, you can't even find a way to universally use something you believe is fact, and when it's used against you, you reduce yourself to this, but then again maybe this is just you.

Go look up the definition of "illegible" and get back to me. You're obviously incapable of supporting your ridiculous boastings of Manhattan, and then you've settled with the degradation of every single user in this thread by using the term "nerd' in a condescending sense when I've proven you wrong and when you're also incapable of responding to my earlier post that ripped your argument to pieces.

You don't even get the concept of my argument, the only argument you ripped to shreds was the feats means win debate, and that was your own argument so...

@Illuminatus said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

what's hilarious is you wrote something illegible and then expect me to understand the point you are trying to make. That is why I used the bold button, what exactly are you saying in that "sentence" it makes no sense. I'm not going on and on about anything, to the contrary. You can't even understand simply logic. It's ridiculous to you because you don't seem to grasp simple concepts as much as you would like to believe. In fact you are technically arguing with yourself, as you keep insisting I am comparing TOAA, when as I explained earlier that I am using your flawed logic, and as you see it makes no sense thus my point has been made

Oh no some nerd said a bunch of other nerds don't take me seriously about fictional characters. What ever will I do? Grow up, you can't even find a way to universally use something you believe is fact, and when it's used against you, you reduce yourself to this, but then again maybe this is just you.

Go look up the definition of "illegible" and get back to me. You're obviously incapable of supporting your ridiculous boastings of Manhattan, and then you've settled with the degradation of every single user in this thread by using the term "nerd' in a condescending sense when I've proven you wrong and when you're also incapable of responding to my earlier post that ripped your argument to pieces.

You don't even get the concept of my argument, the only argument you ripped to shreds was the feats means win debate, and that was your own argument so...

@Illuminatus said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Illuminatus said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

what's hilarious is you wrote something illegible and then expect me to understand the point you are trying to make. That is why I used the bold button, what exactly are you saying in that "sentence" it makes no sense. I'm not going on and on about anything, to the contrary. You can't even understand simply logic. It's ridiculous to you because you don't seem to grasp simple concepts as much as you would like to believe. In fact you are technically arguing with yourself, as you keep insisting I am comparing TOAA, when as I explained earlier that I am using your flawed logic, and as you see it makes no sense thus my point has been made

Oh no some nerd said a bunch of other nerds don't take me seriously about fictional characters. What ever will I do? Grow up, you can't even find a way to universally use something you believe is fact, and when it's used against you, you reduce yourself to this, but then again maybe this is just you.

Go look up the definition of "illegible" and get back to me. You're obviously incapable of supporting your ridiculous boastings of Manhattan, and then you've settled with the degradation of every single user in this thread by using the term "nerd' in a condescending sense when I've proven you wrong and when you're also incapable of responding to my earlier post that ripped your argument to pieces.

You don't even get the concept of my argument, the only argument you ripped to shreds was the feats means win debate, and that was your own argument so...

Truly, an ingenious response on your part. We're done here.

Thanks. Now we're done

I like both characters, but after reading all the discussion I'm going to side with Manhattan here.

First thing I want to say is that simply going by feats is inherently flawed as a means of judging these fights. Taking that criteria to it's logical limit, we can only tell who'd win between characters A and B if A and B have already fought in a comic before. Otherwise, we're only speculating since they dont have the relevant feat. In all contests we're taking what we know and extrapolating to hypothetical events. Feats just allow us to make more concrete extrapolations, but in the absence of feats it's still valid to use what we do know. As long as there's a valid logical explanation for the guesses we're making, then it's fair to use those guesses.

Why I think Manhattan wins: First, he's shown to be able to construct a physical form for himself even after the most absolute deconstruction possible in the physical world of the comic. So we can expect that any such damage done by Firestorm would likewise be reversible by Manhattan. Second, it's valid to assume that he's incredibly fast in terms of thought and movement. This is based on his comments that he's witnessed events so small and fast that they can hardly be said to have happened. Since he's a physicist, we should assume he knows what he's talking about, and hence that he's talking about the smallest and fastest possible things to be possible to happen in the universe. This makes him as fast or faster than Flash. Third, he's shown the abilities to instantaneously disassemble an object (a tank), explode living objects, teleport (himself and others) large distances, walked on the sun, etc., all with little difficulty. All these things suggest that his maximum power level is very high. We cant tell how high, but certainly much higher than the feats displayed. And lastly, he's shown the ability to see the future, which gives him a big advantage in the fight. So, I see him winning in whatever way it's possible for him to win in, since he'd know to avoid any other ways.

@Skunkstein said:

Technically Dr. Manhattan could be anywhere between moderately powerful to the most powerful comic book character ever created.. there is no way of telling, i hope his powers is getting more defined when the ''Before Watchmen'' comics are hitting town.

Now i personally believe he is way above Firestorm... i always saw him as created that way, that was one of his purposes in the Watchmen comic, we got these two poles of heroes, the Batman type and the Superman type. If Dr. Manhattan was in the between one of those two poles he would be more insignificant. He truely is a god. However i know this is all speculation and i have nothing to back that up with... its a personal opinion, and its not an argument for Manhattan winning.

Tell me you didnt just say that

@Skunkstein said:

Well again, we dont know how powerfull Manhattan actually is, i personally think he is way stronger than Firestorm but i cant say for sure...

One question for those who think Firestorm wins; How would he kill him? He cant affect organic matter. Manhattan would just recreate a body for himself if Firestorm should be able to destroy it in the first place.

That was the Bronze age Ronnie Raymond Firestorm who had limitations on organic matter. Jason had no such limit, neither did the Martin Stein elemental nor the reformed Jason/Ronnie. Not that it would have mattered because Manhattan hasn't been "organic" for some time, he's an electromagnetic pattern containing a consciousness. If Stein is part of the Firestorm entity in question I see no issue with causing enough magnetic interference to prevetn Manhattan from reforming. If not (and OP doesn't specify which Firestorm it is) than I'd call it a stalemate as neither can finish the other.

Firestorm has better feats, he transformed ice into flowers, FLOWERS!!!! How does that makes sense?!!

He is above to Manhattan by far.

@beatboks1 said:

@Skunkstein said:

Well again, we dont know how powerfull Manhattan actually is, i personally think he is way stronger than Firestorm but i cant say for sure...

One question for those who think Firestorm wins; How would he kill him? He cant affect organic matter. Manhattan would just recreate a body for himself if Firestorm should be able to destroy it in the first place.

That was the Bronze age Ronnie Raymond Firestorm who had limitations on organic matter. Jason had no such limit, neither did the Martin Stein elemental nor the reformed Jason/Ronnie. Not that it would have mattered because Manhattan hasn't been "organic" for some time, he's an electromagnetic pattern containing a consciousness. If Stein is part of the Firestorm entity in question I see no issue with causing enough magnetic interference to prevetn Manhattan from reforming. If not (and OP doesn't specify which Firestorm it is) than I'd call it a stalemate as neither can finish the other.

Actually I did specify which Firestorm it is, it's the original Ronnie/Stein one. =)

@Deadcool said:

Firestorm has better feats, he transformed ice into flowers, FLOWERS!!!! How does that makes sense?!!

He is above to Manhattan by far.

Did he actually do this? Which version? Cause, that's a serious feat. It's more of a reality warping feat than matter manipulation. Ice doesnt have the atoms necessary to make flowers, so he'd have to construct the atoms first. Then he'd need to know how to actually assemble flowers from atoms... how the heck would he be able to do that? It's not like transforming all atoms of an object from one type to another, which I can see him doing with little thought. But, making something as complex as flowers from scratch is a serious god-like power.

@WillPayton said:

@Deadcool said:

Firestorm has better feats, he transformed ice into flowers, FLOWERS!!!! How does that makes sense?!!

He is above to Manhattan by far.

Did he actually do this? Which version? Cause, that's a serious feat. It's more of a reality warping feat than matter manipulation. Ice doesnt have the atoms necessary to make flowers, so he'd have to construct the atoms first. Then he'd need to know how to actually assemble flowers from atoms... how the heck would he be able to do that? It's not like transforming all atoms of an object from one type to another, which I can see him doing with little thought. But, making something as complex as flowers from scratch is a serious god-like power.

Are you familiar with the concept of fusion and fission?

@WillPayton: I got a random issue of Crisis on Infinite earths, he is fighting against an Ice Woman (I can't remember her name) and she is throwing at him ice, and Fire Storm transform the ice to flowers.

@Enemybird said:

@WillPayton said:

@Deadcool said:

Firestorm has better feats, he transformed ice into flowers, FLOWERS!!!! How does that makes sense?!!

He is above to Manhattan by far.

Did he actually do this? Which version? Cause, that's a serious feat. It's more of a reality warping feat than matter manipulation. Ice doesnt have the atoms necessary to make flowers, so he'd have to construct the atoms first. Then he'd need to know how to actually assemble flowers from atoms... how the heck would he be able to do that? It's not like transforming all atoms of an object from one type to another, which I can see him doing with little thought. But, making something as complex as flowers from scratch is a serious god-like power.

Are you familiar with the concept of fusion and fission?

Yes I am. I'm just saying it's not a simple convert-all-of-one-to-all-of-another trick. He'd be deconstructing atoms and then using the particles to fuse into various other atoms, and then into very complex forms such as flowers. This isnt a trivial task, by any means.

@WillPayton said:

@beatboks1 said:

@Skunkstein said:

Well again, we dont know how powerfull Manhattan actually is, i personally think he is way stronger than Firestorm but i cant say for sure...

One question for those who think Firestorm wins; How would he kill him? He cant affect organic matter. Manhattan would just recreate a body for himself if Firestorm should be able to destroy it in the first place.

That was the Bronze age Ronnie Raymond Firestorm who had limitations on organic matter. Jason had no such limit, neither did the Martin Stein elemental nor the reformed Jason/Ronnie. Not that it would have mattered because Manhattan hasn't been "organic" for some time, he's an electromagnetic pattern containing a consciousness. If Stein is part of the Firestorm entity in question I see no issue with causing enough magnetic interference to prevetn Manhattan from reforming. If not (and OP doesn't specify which Firestorm it is) than I'd call it a stalemate as neither can finish the other.

Actually I did specify which Firestorm it is, it's the original Ronnie/Stein one. =)

You said Ronnie Stein, that could be the original merger of the two or when they re-united after Stein had been the fire elemental. That's NOT specific.

In any case since Stein is involved Firestorm wins. If it the original merger of the two the organic weakness doesn't come into play because Manhattan isn't organic.

@WillPayton said:

@Deadcool said:

Firestorm has better feats, he transformed ice into flowers, FLOWERS!!!! How does that makes sense?!!

He is above to Manhattan by far.

Did he actually do this? Which version? Cause, that's a serious feat. It's more of a reality warping feat than matter manipulation. Ice doesnt have the atoms necessary to make flowers, so he'd have to construct the atoms first. Then he'd need to know how to actually assemble flowers from atoms... how the heck would he be able to do that? It's not like transforming all atoms of an object from one type to another, which I can see him doing with little thought. But, making something as complex as flowers from scratch is a serious god-like power.

Firestorm has nuclear fusion he can combine atoms to make others, in other words he can construct atoms. The flowers were also artificial as I recall.

@beatboks1 said:

@WillPayton said:

@beatboks1 said:

@Skunkstein said:

Well again, we dont know how powerfull Manhattan actually is, i personally think he is way stronger than Firestorm but i cant say for sure...

One question for those who think Firestorm wins; How would he kill him? He cant affect organic matter. Manhattan would just recreate a body for himself if Firestorm should be able to destroy it in the first place.

That was the Bronze age Ronnie Raymond Firestorm who had limitations on organic matter. Jason had no such limit, neither did the Martin Stein elemental nor the reformed Jason/Ronnie. Not that it would have mattered because Manhattan hasn't been "organic" for some time, he's an electromagnetic pattern containing a consciousness. If Stein is part of the Firestorm entity in question I see no issue with causing enough magnetic interference to prevetn Manhattan from reforming. If not (and OP doesn't specify which Firestorm it is) than I'd call it a stalemate as neither can finish the other.

Actually I did specify which Firestorm it is, it's the original Ronnie/Stein one. =)

You said Ronnie Stein, that could be the original merger of the two or when they re-united after Stein had been the fire elemental. That's NOT specific.

In any case since Stein is involved Firestorm wins. If it the original merger of the two the organic weakness doesn't come into play because Manhattan isn't organic.

@WillPayton said:

@Deadcool said:

Firestorm has better feats, he transformed ice into flowers, FLOWERS!!!! How does that makes sense?!!

He is above to Manhattan by far.

Did he actually do this? Which version? Cause, that's a serious feat. It's more of a reality warping feat than matter manipulation. Ice doesnt have the atoms necessary to make flowers, so he'd have to construct the atoms first. Then he'd need to know how to actually assemble flowers from atoms... how the heck would he be able to do that? It's not like transforming all atoms of an object from one type to another, which I can see him doing with little thought. But, making something as complex as flowers from scratch is a serious god-like power.

Firestorm has nuclear fusion he can combine atoms to make others, in other words he can construct atoms. The flowers were also artificial as I recall.

Well, it's the original version of Firestorm.

If the flowers were artificial then it's understandable. If they were real flowers then it's some sort of magic or reality-warping feat.

@WillPayton said:

@Enemybird said:

@WillPayton said:

@Deadcool said:

Firestorm has better feats, he transformed ice into flowers, FLOWERS!!!! How does that makes sense?!!

He is above to Manhattan by far.

Did he actually do this? Which version? Cause, that's a serious feat. It's more of a reality warping feat than matter manipulation. Ice doesnt have the atoms necessary to make flowers, so he'd have to construct the atoms first. Then he'd need to know how to actually assemble flowers from atoms... how the heck would he be able to do that? It's not like transforming all atoms of an object from one type to another, which I can see him doing with little thought. But, making something as complex as flowers from scratch is a serious god-like power.

Are you familiar with the concept of fusion and fission?

Yes I am. I'm just saying it's not a simple convert-all-of-one-to-all-of-another trick. He'd be deconstructing atoms and then using the particles to fuse into various other atoms, and then into very complex forms such as flowers. This isnt a trivial task, by any means.

Considering Manhattan said he would create life before he left earth... Firestrom making a flower doesn't really set the bar higher "so to speak".

@Enemybird said:

@WillPayton said:

@Enemybird said:

@WillPayton said:

@Deadcool said:

Firestorm has better feats, he transformed ice into flowers, FLOWERS!!!! How does that makes sense?!!

He is above to Manhattan by far.

Did he actually do this? Which version? Cause, that's a serious feat. It's more of a reality warping feat than matter manipulation. Ice doesnt have the atoms necessary to make flowers, so he'd have to construct the atoms first. Then he'd need to know how to actually assemble flowers from atoms... how the heck would he be able to do that? It's not like transforming all atoms of an object from one type to another, which I can see him doing with little thought. But, making something as complex as flowers from scratch is a serious god-like power.

Are you familiar with the concept of fusion and fission?

Yes I am. I'm just saying it's not a simple convert-all-of-one-to-all-of-another trick. He'd be deconstructing atoms and then using the particles to fuse into various other atoms, and then into very complex forms such as flowers. This isnt a trivial task, by any means.

Considering Manhattan said he would create life before he left earth... Firestrom making a flower doesn't really set the bar higher "so to speak".

Disagree on this. Making life is only a matter of putting together the right molecules that can reproduce, in other words abiogenesis. With the ability to create individual atoms, then molecules, and link them together, and given the massive intelligence and abilities of Manhattan I can see him doing this easily. But, for a pair of human minds, spontaneously creating incredibly complex forms such as flowers from scratch is just absurd. I'm not saying they dont have the power to fuse atoms, just that the complexity of arranging them to the final forms in the given time is impossible.

Now I don't know much about Ronnie, but from what I know, he is not the most intelligent of the Firestorms and needed to Professor's help to perform some of the transmutations. Therefore, I'm going to say Manhattan purely because of that. However, Jason I think would win, since he does not have that problem.

Manhattan is not omnipotent. He could not eliminate all of the nukes, Ozymandias disrupted his corporeal form (even if Manhattan reconstituted himself it still shows that he can manipulated), and Ozy disrupted his vision. People need to stop acting like he's on par with the Presence.

@Enemybird: Flowers are a form of life ba-dum bum cha no but really we've never seen Dr.M's powers in battle or superbattle hell if he fought the hulk he'd probably start punching him like everyone else but i digress Firestorm has seen more action so im going with him

@_Black said:

Manhattan is not omnipotent. He could not eliminate all of the nukes, Ozymandias disrupted his corporeal form (even if Manhattan reconstituted himself it still shows that he can manipulated), and Ozy disrupted his vision. People need to stop acting like he's on par with the Presence.

Huh, who said he's on par with the Presence?

Of course Manhattan isnt anywhere near omnipotent or omniscient. But, given his demonstrated powers and feats, I think it's reasonable to assume that the upper limit of what he can do is pretty high. Not Spectre level, or Galactus level, but I think high enough to beat Firestorm.

@theguyyouwishyouwere said:

@Enemybird: Flowers are a form of life ba-dum bum cha no but really we've never seen Dr.M's powers in battle or superbattle hell if he fought the hulk he'd probably start punching him like everyone else but i digress Firestorm has seen more action so im going with him

What in the world are you talking about

@theguyyouwishyouwere said:

@Enemybird: Flowers are a form of life ba-dum bum cha no but really we've never seen Dr.M's powers in battle or superbattle hell if he fought the hulk he'd probably start punching him like everyone else but i digress Firestorm has seen more action so im going with him

That wouldnt be at all in his character. Sure he doesnt have any feats against supeheroes, but what we've seen shows that he's not the brawling type.

@WillPayton said:

@_Black said:

Manhattan is not omnipotent. He could not eliminate all of the nukes, Ozymandias disrupted his corporeal form (even if Manhattan reconstituted himself it still shows that he can manipulated), and Ozy disrupted his vision. People need to stop acting like he's on par with the Presence.

Huh, who said he's on par with the Presence?

Of course Manhattan isnt anywhere near omnipotent or omniscient. But, given his demonstrated powers and feats, I think it's reasonable to assume that the upper limit of what he can do is pretty high. Not Spectre level, or Galactus level, but I think high enough to beat Firestorm.

Skunkstein stated he could possibly be the most powerful comic character ever. Come on. -_-

But therein lies the flaw with that reasoning, you think his upper limit is above Firestorm. To effectively decide a battle, however, you need facts.

@_Black said:

But therein lies the flaw with that reasoning, you think his upper limit is above Firestorm. To effectively decide a battle, however, you need facts.

The whole point of this forum is speculation. Unless two characters already fought in the comics, the outcome of any such battle is always going to be just speculation. And, extrapolating Manhattans powers IS based on facts. You may not agree with the conclusions people make based on those facts, but you cant say they made them up out of nothing. So, saying that Manhattan can beat Firestorm based on what's shown in the comics is indeed based on facts.

If you're talking about feats, then you still have the same problem. Feats (unless it's an actual feat of character A beating character B) are only just a platform from which to jump into more speculation. Without feats one can still make reasonable judgments on what someone may be able to do. This is especially true for characters like Manhattan where the absence of feats is explained by the lack of powerful opponents, or number of publications, that would have allowed for those feats. At least if he did have a lot of such fights, then you could make a reasonable argument for the lack of a certain power, if that power had never been used, even if implied by his other power set.

@WillPayton: The point is speculation based on logic and feats though. I could speculate anything. Because Superman has super strength, does that mean he can lift anything? No. You can only correctly deduce the extent of a character's powers by what they've been shown capable of doing.

@_Black said:

@WillPayton: The point is speculation based on logic and feats though. I could speculate anything. Because Superman has super strength, does that mean he can lift anything? No. You can only correctly deduce the extent of a character's powers by what they've been shown capable of doing.

I'm talking about speculation based on logic and feats. For example, if Superman is shown to easily lift Y tons, can we then speculate that he can lift 2 x Y tons? Yes, because we know that if we can easily lift some amount, then twice that amount should be doable. We then extrapolate this to Superman and we can guess that he can, even if he doesnt have any feats of lifting Y tons.

So, I'm saying the same thing about Manhattan. I'm looking at what he's done and extrapolating based on logic. I didnt make up any powers and attribute them to him.

@WillPayton: Once again, you can speculate to some extent. What has Manhattan done to put him above of Firestorm?

@_Black said:

@WillPayton: Once again, you can speculate to some extent. What has Manhattan done to put him above of Firestorm?

If you read back, I already stated my reasons for why I think he's win this.

But, I'll paste it here:

Why I think Manhattan wins: First, he's shown to be able to construct a physical form for himself even after the most absolute deconstruction possible in the physical world of the comic. So we can expect that any such damage done by Firestorm would likewise be reversible by Manhattan. Second, it's valid to assume that he's incredibly fast in terms of thought and movement. This is based on his comments that he's witnessed events so small and fast that they can hardly be said to have happened. Since he's a physicist, we should assume he knows what he's talking about, and hence that he's talking about the smallest and fastest possible things to be possible to happen in the universe. This makes him as fast or faster than Flash. Third, he's shown the abilities to instantaneously disassemble an object (a tank), explode living objects, teleport (himself and others) large distances, walked on the sun, etc., all with little difficulty. All these things suggest that his maximum power level is very high. We cant tell how high, but certainly much higher than the feats displayed. And lastly, he's shown the ability to see the future, which gives him a big advantage in the fight. So, I see him winning in whatever way it's possible for him to win in, since he'd know to avoid any other ways.

@Deadcool said:

@WillPayton: I got a random issue of Crisis on Infinite earths, he is fighting against an Ice Woman (I can't remember her name) and she is throwing at him ice, and Fire Storm transform the ice to flowers.

I believe I have that issue. It was Killer Frost :)

@Onemoreposter said:

I believe I have that issue. It was Killer Frost :)

Thanks kind user. =)

@WillPayton: What's to stop Firestorm from dissociating Manhattan? The machine that Ozy used was a one time thing, it did not keep Manhattan's atoms from coming back together, like Firestorm should be able to do. The walking on the sun thing and the observing tachyons thing were spoken feats, it was not like he used that in a battle scenario.

@nickthedevil said:

Firestorm wins. Because he actually has feats.

Dr Manhattan is the perfect example of a "big fish in a little pond" No one knows how powerful he really is..

@_Black said:

@WillPayton: What's to stop Firestorm from dissociating Manhattan? The machine that Ozy used was a one time thing, it did not keep Manhattan's atoms from coming back together, like Firestorm should be able to do. The walking on the sun thing and the observing tachyons thing were spoken feats, it was not like he used that in a battle scenario.

Who's to say Manhattan actually needs his dissociated atoms to create a new body... I agree with you though Manhattan requires too much speculation for a definitive argument.

@_Black said:

@WillPayton: What's to stop Firestorm from dissociating Manhattan? The machine that Ozy used was a one time thing, it did not keep Manhattan's atoms from coming back together, like Firestorm should be able to do. The walking on the sun thing and the observing tachyons thing were spoken feats, it was not like he used that in a battle scenario.

If by dissociating you mean to disintegrate him, to separate all the atoms from each other, I guess it'd come down to who had better control. He could try, but Manhattan could also try to stop him. Considering Manhattans abilities, I can see him voiding such an attack. Also, we can ask the question in the other direction.

Even if Firestorm succeeded in a disintegration attack, and even if he succeeds in keeping those atoms separate, we've seen Manhattans ability to create a new body. Also, since it seems his powers are mental in nature, we dont even know that he even needs a body to be able to function and attack Ronnie.

As far as the spoken feats, I agree that they are less trustworthy than on-panel feats. However we should also consider the reliability of the dialog. We really have zero reason to doubt what Manhattan is saying, and in fact it seems consistent with his on-panel feats. Similarly, if Captain America says in dialog that he witnessed something happen, unless we have a reason to doubt it, we can be reasonable sure that this happened.

@Enemybird said:

@_Black said:

@WillPayton: What's to stop Firestorm from dissociating Manhattan? The machine that Ozy used was a one time thing, it did not keep Manhattan's atoms from coming back together, like Firestorm should be able to do. The walking on the sun thing and the observing tachyons thing were spoken feats, it was not like he used that in a battle scenario.

Who's to say Manhattan actually needs his dissociated atoms to create a new body... I agree with you though Manhattan requires too much speculation for a definitive argument.

Are you saying that any judgement about a fights outcome on this forum is in any way definitive?? No, this is all speculation, sometimes with more evidence to support it, sometimes with less. As long as we can look at known facts and make reasonable extrapolations and inferences, we can still come up with informed guesses.

@WillPayton said:

@Enemybird said:

@_Black said:

@WillPayton: What's to stop Firestorm from dissociating Manhattan? The machine that Ozy used was a one time thing, it did not keep Manhattan's atoms from coming back together, like Firestorm should be able to do. The walking on the sun thing and the observing tachyons thing were spoken feats, it was not like he used that in a battle scenario.

Who's to say Manhattan actually needs his dissociated atoms to create a new body... I agree with you though Manhattan requires too much speculation for a definitive argument.

Are you saying that any judgement about a fights outcome on this forum is in any way definitive?? No, this is all speculation, sometimes with more evidence to support it, sometimes with less. As long as we can look at known facts and make reasonable extrapolations and inferences, we can still come up with informed guesses.

I sure am

@Enemybird said:

@WillPayton said:

@Enemybird said:

@_Black said:

@WillPayton: What's to stop Firestorm from dissociating Manhattan? The machine that Ozy used was a one time thing, it did not keep Manhattan's atoms from coming back together, like Firestorm should be able to do. The walking on the sun thing and the observing tachyons thing were spoken feats, it was not like he used that in a battle scenario.

Who's to say Manhattan actually needs his dissociated atoms to create a new body... I agree with you though Manhattan requires too much speculation for a definitive argument.

Are you saying that any judgement about a fights outcome on this forum is in any way definitive?? No, this is all speculation, sometimes with more evidence to support it, sometimes with less. As long as we can look at known facts and make reasonable extrapolations and inferences, we can still come up with informed guesses.

I sure am

Quick, Stan Lee is on the red phone from Marvel HQ! They need to know who wins between the Thing and Captain America, but Cap has Wolverines adamantium skeleton and claws, and Cyclop's eye-beam powers. Hurry, we need a definitive decision, and Stan is depending on his brain trust here at comicvine, stat! LOL...

@WillPayton said:

@_Black said:

@WillPayton: What's to stop Firestorm from dissociating Manhattan? The machine that Ozy used was a one time thing, it did not keep Manhattan's atoms from coming back together, like Firestorm should be able to do. The walking on the sun thing and the observing tachyons thing were spoken feats, it was not like he used that in a battle scenario.

If by dissociating you mean to disintegrate him, to separate all the atoms from each other, I guess it'd come down to who had better control. He could try, but Manhattan could also try to stop him. Considering Manhattans abilities, I can see him voiding such an attack. Also, we can ask the question in the other direction.

Even if Firestorm succeeded in a disintegration attack, and even if he succeeds in keeping those atoms separate, we've seen Manhattans ability to create a new body. Also, since it seems his powers are mental in nature, we dont even know that he even needs a body to be able to function and attack Ronnie.

As far as the spoken feats, I agree that they are less trustworthy than on-panel feats. However we should also consider the reliability of the dialog. We really have zero reason to doubt what Manhattan is saying, and in fact it seems consistent with his on-panel feats. Similarly, if Captain America says in dialog that he witnessed something happen, unless we have a reason to doubt it, we can be reasonable sure that this happened.

I agree that it depends on who has better manipulation abilities. Walking "on" the sun is a feat that really doesn't matter in this battle anyways. But Manhattan not needing a body to attack is too much speculation in my opinion. Agree to disagree.

@_Black said:

@WillPayton said:

@_Black said:

@WillPayton: What's to stop Firestorm from dissociating Manhattan? The machine that Ozy used was a one time thing, it did not keep Manhattan's atoms from coming back together, like Firestorm should be able to do. The walking on the sun thing and the observing tachyons thing were spoken feats, it was not like he used that in a battle scenario.

If by dissociating you mean to disintegrate him, to separate all the atoms from each other, I guess it'd come down to who had better control. He could try, but Manhattan could also try to stop him. Considering Manhattans abilities, I can see him voiding such an attack. Also, we can ask the question in the other direction.

Even if Firestorm succeeded in a disintegration attack, and even if he succeeds in keeping those atoms separate, we've seen Manhattans ability to create a new body. Also, since it seems his powers are mental in nature, we dont even know that he even needs a body to be able to function and attack Ronnie.

As far as the spoken feats, I agree that they are less trustworthy than on-panel feats. However we should also consider the reliability of the dialog. We really have zero reason to doubt what Manhattan is saying, and in fact it seems consistent with his on-panel feats. Similarly, if Captain America says in dialog that he witnessed something happen, unless we have a reason to doubt it, we can be reasonable sure that this happened.

I agree that it depends on who has better manipulation abilities. Walking "on" the sun is a feat that really doesn't matter in this battle anyways. But Manhattan not needing a body to attack is too much speculation in my opinion. Agree to disagree.

Fair enough. Yes, I'm only speculating about his ability to attack while incorporeal. I base it on the fact that he is known to have incorporeal powers, after all that's how he rebuilt his new body... twice. Still, I'm not relying on that as a necessary ability for him to win. I think he can probably stalemate Ronnie in the area of who can disintegrate whom. I actually think a bigger factor would be who's faster, as being able to get the first attack could be a deciding factor. Based on that criteria, I think Manhattan would have a good chance to win.

@WillPayton:

@Enemybird said:

BTW very nice avatar. Reminds me I should watch Death Note again. =)

@WillPayton: I have no doubt Manhattan can reconstitute himself because, as you said, he's done it twice before. But that was without someone else preventing him from doing so. That is why Manhattan attacking without a corporeal body seems far-fetched to me. If he cannot bring his atoms back together, what can he do? That's the only thing he's ever done concerning being incorporeal. I believe we have delved much more into this than Alan Moore ever wished.

@WillPayton said:

@Enemybird said:

BTW very nice avatar. Reminds me I should watch Death Note again. =)

^_^