Dr Manhattan run's the Gauntlet

Dr Manhattan can teleport at least the distance from earth to the sun.

gets to 4 at least

@darkelf35 said:

Dr Manhattan can teleport at least the distance from earth to the sun.

I'd say he can probably go farther than that, considering the end of Before Watchmen Manhattan, he ends up on another planet that has trees and plants on it and such. I am just not sure what that distance would really end up being. If someone wants to come up with the intel on the nearest star with a planet capable of supporting life, then I would say he could in the least travel that far.

@Betatesthighlander1:

Alright, 911 is busy in the city today, so I don't have a whole lot of time to devote to this, and am writing this in bits and pieces as the day goes along, but here are my further thoughts on what you are coming up with.

"It's given to the audience to be taken as exposition"

And it is still a reporter making a report, and as such does nothing to prove Manhattan's power level/proficiency/ability. We cannot argue that he can do something based on an explanation or a general power set mainly based on the ideas of varying power levels and proficiency. As such, it is a non-factor and does little to prove any points power level wise.

"its never actually suggested that he needs a machine for anything in the graphic noverl, we know that he means he can synthesize lithium because he says that he can, not that a machine could, your trying to raise something as an alternative when there is nothing in the entire series to suggest that alternative is so."

No, we don't know he means anything. You want to use that as proof, then you have to have something more solid. Until you can factually prove he did this entirely under his own power, then you would have a case. Until then, it could be argued he created a machine that does this. So, where is the proof he did it himself? Yes, the fact that he has created technologies to aid mankind, and even created tech for Ozy in Before Watchmen that had not existed yet (that would synthesize and utilize the energy he produces), there is plenty in the series to suggest that alternative. Until you can prove it, then that is just your interpretation of events.

"give me one example FROM MARVEL of durability helping with SUBATOMIC MANIPULATION"

Don't have to, because you can't even prove he is capable of subatomic manipulation. You can't even prove that what he does is better than a matter manipulator.

"what do you mean "having trouble"? he's entirely casual with no sign of strain, and the narrator even says it requires "no greater difficulty""

Yeah, standing there, melting only the top. If he is as powerful as you state, that whole tank should have been gone in an instant, just like the human (because by your statement, he manipulates matter on a subatomic level and it is all pretty much the same, right?). Instead, you see the smoke starting to form, insinuating he has been at it for at least a little bit, and the results ending in only the top being melted. Yet, baseline humans with not real durability he can pop with ease. So the more durable object was still standing for the most part and took more time...hmmm...interesting...

"not 2 pages ago you were asking for proof that his powers worked against characters with wills, and the crystalline machine clearly shows him manipulating a lot more mass than Thor's body"

He didn't manipulate anything with a will to make that structure. Will does not equate to mass, and I doubt the materials found on Mars are anywhere near Thor's durability.

"yeah......no, you pretty blatantly opened that bottle"

Yeah, you are completely blowing that out of proportion, and changing the intent. It is exactly the bottle I said it was. It is not a matter of Manhattan not being able to affect everything from the Marvel U, and your whole rant on comparing cross company feats was cute, but again, blown out of proportion. What did I state it was? "I opened the he is not a baseline human bottle and has even resisted having his molecules tampered with thanks to his godly properties."

Are there proven gods in the Watchmen U? No. Is Thor a baseline human? No. Is Thor a god with properties that are not proven to exist in the Watchmen U? Yes. Oh, and what part did you omit form the overall thought I had laid out: "Both scans discuss how he is different from a mortal, period." So wow, I was in fact discussing the fact his molecules are a little different thanks to godly properties. Now, if I had made that statement, and continued on with the train of thought of Marvel versus Watchmen U properties instead of discussing Thor's godly properties, maybe you would have some ground to stand on. But you really don't there, since it was pretty obvious that wasn't my thought process on the matter.

I'll tell you what though, if it will stop this inane and pointless portion of our discussion, then I will apologize for the misleading statement when that was not my intent and I'll watch my phrasing in the future to cut down on the confusion. So cork that bottle and stop it.

But here, let's turn an argument of yours around and check out the flip side of it, shall we?

"but Manhattan can effect stuff smaller than cells, and Thor, coming from a mystical world, would logically be more resistant to magic more than anything else, sure he's resisted dark the elaborate mystical threats of dark Gods, but I remember no examples of him resisting something as simple as subatomic destabilation"

So here, you are wanting to make clear differentiation between mystic sources and more science based such as Manhattan. Now you say logically he would be more resistant to magic, but you really have no backing there on that, as that is your interpretation. Regardless, Thor is an immortal Asgardian, mystic/supernatural/godly/etc in origin. If there is such a differentiation in the mystical and the scientific as you want to bring up, then who is to say Manhattan can even understand the workings of and affect a mystic being? Things of a magic/mystic nature often defying the laws of known physics and science. It's a valid thought to bring up if you want to argue that something is invalid because it has a different origin. Thor has been shown to be resistant to far more intimate forms of destruction than Manhattan is capable of is truly where I will leave it at though. My argument is Thor is indeed resistant to such things, and Manhattan has yet to prove he can affect such being with his best feat of destruction being the melting of the top of a tank.

"molecular and subatomic are different things, the "more powerful characters" all have incredibly nebulous powersets, The Destroyer was able to disintegrate the Uru mallet easily enough, in what was blatantly called disintegration. and what do you mean by "we can even prove that will plays a part in it thanks to Manhattan and the Watchmen series" what the hell does that even mean? when was that established at all?"

And you cannot prove even prove your subatomic theory. Since that is what it is. A theory, and your thoughts and ideas on Manhattan's powerset. As for Manhattan and will, if you had been reading what I have been writing, I have discussed this a few pages back with you. Manhattan has been shown to be able to put the pieces back together as it were after the subtraction of his intrinsic field. We know that the glue that holds stuff together was taken away, scattering his molecules and atoms. What was left of his consciousness/will had to pull himself back together. So now the discussion could come in...we know he needs a body to affect the world, as he has never once been shown to utilize his powers without a body. So he willed his molecules back to reform his body. Will played a part in affecting his molecules to rebuild his body. Now, that is an openly admitted theory, one I won't fight too hard to defend, but it has a fairly valid basis to it -- unless someone can prove that Manhattan can affect the world with his powers without a body.

"molecule man :can control molecules, has demonstrated manipulation of mass greater than that of Thor. Doctor Manhattan: controls something a lot more basic than molecules, has been shown to manipulate more mass than that of Thor."

Molecule Man has created adamantium from thin air, and even rebuilt a galaxy that the Beyonder had destroyed, and much more. Manhattan with what you are terming as a more powerful ability (that you can't even prove) barely metled the top of a tank. No, you cannot even begin to compare the two, when Molecule Man would wreck Manhattan like there is no tomorrow. And again, mass does NOT equate to will or durability. Silver Surfer has withstood and deflected planet destroying attacks before...I am fairly positive a planet has more mass than Silver Surfer, yet Surfer proved to be more durable. Stop trying to interchange mass with will and durability like this, as it does not work in a world of comics and superpowers.

So, where does this leave us? Pretty much where we started from. Manhattan does not have the feats/showings/benchmarks to state that he is as powerful as you believe him to be. He just doesn't have the showings to back it up, and there is no arguing that. You can keep on yelling about him manipulating subatomic particles and such, but the series itself works against you in that aspect (as in far too little factual information on his nebulous powerset). Considering Manhattan was able to affect his molecules with is own will and pull himself back together, he could pop baseline humans but could only melt the top of a tank, and even his life creation feat wasn't all that impressive...you have yet to produce the smoking gun for your argument, and there are still far to many "what ifs" and "prove it" statements that can be thrown at your arguments. You want to continue with this, then fine, do so. In a debate forum, facts/feats/benchmarks are keys to proving thoughts; theories without a whole lot of backing that someone can just say "prove it" when presented...not so much.

We can prove Thor's durability. We can prove his molecules are different than a mortals. We can prove he resisted complete and utter destruction from a molecular to a spiritual level. We can prove Manhattan does in fact have a lack of feats and showings. We can prove he can easily pop a baseline human, but for some reason was not capable of doing the same to a tank. We cannot prove that he is in fact capable of manipulating on a subatomic level. There are far too many what ifs and unknowns with your argument.

Hey, you produce the smoking gun, and I am fine with it, believe it or not. I really don't care if it exists, but I don't buy this argument you are presenting based on the unseen. You are attributing unproven power and ability to Manhattan. You may think I am a Thor fanboy, but I know far more about Manhattan and his showings than I do about Thor and his -- though I know enough to say that I am highly doubtful of Manhattan's ability in this arena. Manhattan is one of my favorite characters due to his charactersization and the restraint he shows in the main series. Before Watchmen furthered my like for the character, and it was an awesome story. Yet even I realize the limitations of arguing the character with such a lack of true blue information in a forum where all someone has to say is "well, then prove it".

If you have your smoking gun, then produce it. Not something that can be called into question, or interpreted in any other manner. Facts are king here. And regardles to what you may believe, you have not provided a true blue fact. All we have are a bunch of issues that are still being questioned in regards to Manhattan and his powerset.

@Wyldsong said:

@Betatesthighlander1:

Alright, 911 is busy in the city today, so I don't have a whole lot of time to devote to this, and am writing this in bits and pieces as the day goes along, but here are my further thoughts on what you are coming up with.

"It's given to the audience to be taken as exposition"

And it is still a reporter making a report, and as such does nothing to prove Manhattan's power level/proficiency/ability. We cannot argue that he can do something based on an explanation or a general power set mainly based on the ideas of varying power levels and proficiency. As such, it is a non-factor and does little to prove any points power level wise.

"its never actually suggested that he needs a machine for anything in the graphic noverl, we know that he means he can synthesize lithium because he says that he can, not that a machine could, your trying to raise something as an alternative when there is nothing in the entire series to suggest that alternative is so."

No, we don't know he means anything. You want to use that as proof, then you have to have something more solid. Until you can factually prove he did this entirely under his own power, then you would have a case. Until then, it could be argued he created a machine that does this. So, where is the proof he did it himself? Yes, the fact that he has created technologies to aid mankind, and even created tech for Ozy in Before Watchmen that had not existed yet (that would synthesize and utilize the energy he produces), there is plenty in the series to suggest that alternative. Until you can prove it, then that is just your interpretation of events.

"give me one example FROM MARVEL of durability helping with SUBATOMIC MANIPULATION"

Don't have to, because you can't even prove he is capable of subatomic manipulation. You can't even prove that what he does is better than a matter manipulator.

dude, like everyone who's put effort into profiling Doctor Manhattan agrees that he controls matter on a subatomic level

http://watchmen.wikia.com/wiki/Jon_Osterman

http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Self-Subatomic_Manipulation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Watchmen_characters#Doctor_Manhattan

http://www.mania.com/about-doctor-manhattan_article_116398.html

@Wyldsong said:

"what do you mean "having trouble"? he's entirely casual with no sign of strain, and the narrator even says it requires "no greater difficulty""

Yeah, standing there, melting only the top. If he is as powerful as you state, that whole tank should have been gone in an instant, just like the human (because by your statement, he manipulates matter on a subatomic level and it is all pretty much the same, right?). Instead, you see the smoke starting to form, insinuating he has been at it for at least a little bit, and the results ending in only the top being melted. Yet, baseline humans with not real durability he can pop with ease. So the more durable object was still standing for the most part and took more time...hmmm...interesting...

he only blew up the guy's head, because the good Doctor seems to have some liking for efficiency, that, or the news/propaganda department decided that melting a tank was more interesting, or maybe he was just playing around to see everything he could do, also, you said that artists interpretations don't count when i pointed out that the head explosion meant a chemical change, so does art count or not?

@Wyldsong said:

"yeah......no, you pretty blatantly opened that bottle"

Yeah, you are completely blowing that out of proportion, and changing the intent. It is exactly the bottle I said it was. It is not a matter of Manhattan not being able to affect everything from the Marvel U, and your whole rant on comparing cross company feats was cute, but again, blown out of proportion. What did I state it was? "I opened the he is not a baseline human bottle and has even resisted having his molecules tampered with thanks to his godly properties."

Are there proven gods in the Watchmen U? No. Is Thor a baseline human? No. Is Thor a god with properties that are not proven to exist in the Watchmen U? Yes. Oh, and what part did you omit form the overall thought I had laid out: "Both scans discuss how he is different from a mortal, period." So wow, I was in fact discussing the fact his molecules are a little different thanks to godly properties. Now, if I had made that statement, and continued on with the train of thought of Marvel versus Watchmen U properties instead of discussing Thor's godly properties, maybe you would have some ground to stand on. But you really don't there, since it was pretty obvious that wasn't my thought process on the matter.

I'll tell you what though, if it will stop this inane and pointless portion of our discussion, then I will apologize for the misleading statement when that was not my intent and I'll watch my phrasing in the future to cut down on the confusion. So cork that bottle and stop it.

I'm not sure what definition of "apology" that last statement was trying to fit.

Is Doctor Manhattan a temporally instantaneous energy being with properties never shown in the Marvel U?

Thor is similar enough to a mortal that he can be smashed by fists, reported by machines, copied by machines produced in some guy's lab, manipoulated by Molecule man, transmuted by Grey Gargoyle, transported through time by Zarrko, transformed back into Don lake by Kang's machine, and healed by a Pangorian revitalization chamber

@Wyldsong said:

"molecular and subatomic are different things, the "more powerful characters" all have incredibly nebulous powersets, The Destroyer was able to disintegrate the Uru mallet easily enough, in what was blatantly called disintegration. and what do you mean by "we can even prove that will plays a part in it thanks to Manhattan and the Watchmen series" what the hell does that even mean? when was that established at all?"

And you cannot prove even prove your subatomic theory. Since that is what it is. A theory, and your thoughts and ideas on Manhattan's powerset. As for Manhattan and will, if you had been reading what I have been writing, I have discussed this a few pages back with you. Manhattan has been shown to be able to put the pieces back together as it were after the subtraction of his intrinsic field. We know that the glue that holds stuff together was taken away, scattering his molecules and atoms. What was left of his consciousness/will had to pull himself back together. So now the discussion could come in...we know he needs a body to affect the world, as he has never once been shown to utilize his powers without a body. So he willed his molecules back to reform his body. Will played a part in affecting his molecules to rebuild his body. Now, that is an openly admitted theory, one I won't fight too hard to defend, but it has a fairly valid basis to it -- unless someone can prove that Manhattan can affect the world with his powers without a body.

that has nothing to do with him manipulating characters who have wills, yes he has to try to do something to do it, but no one else ever shows any ability to just resist his powers

@Wyldsong said:

"molecule man :can control molecules, has demonstrated manipulation of mass greater than that of Thor. Doctor Manhattan: controls something a lot more basic than molecules, has been shown to manipulate more mass than that of Thor."

Molecule Man has created adamantium from thin air, and even rebuilt a galaxy that the Beyonder had destroyed, and much more. Manhattan with what you are terming as a more powerful ability (that you can't even prove) barely metled the top of a tank. No, you cannot even begin to compare the two, when Molecule Man would wreck Manhattan like there is no tomorrow. And again, mass does NOT equate to will or durability. Silver Surfer has withstood and deflected planet destroying attacks before...I am fairly positive a planet has more mass than Silver Surfer, yet Surfer proved to be more durable. Stop trying to interchange mass with will and durability like this, as it does not work in a world of comics and superpowers.

yes, you can wreck five hundred pounds of dirt with a shovel, but the dirt is still gonna have more electrons than the shovel

diamonds can be wrecked by liquid oxygen, because durability is entirely different than chemical change

@Wyldsong said:

So, where does this leave us? Pretty much where we started from. Manhattan does not have the feats/showings/benchmarks to state that he is as powerful as you believe him to be. He just doesn't have the showings to back it up, and there is no arguing that. You can keep on yelling about him manipulating subatomic particles and such, but the series itself works against you in that aspect (as in far too little factual information on his nebulous powerset). Considering Manhattan was able to affect his molecules with is own will and pull himself back together, he could pop baseline humans but could only melt the top of a tank, and even his life creation feat wasn't all that impressive...you have yet to produce the smoking gun for your argument, and there are still far to many "what ifs" and "prove it" statements that can be thrown at your arguments. You want to continue with this, then fine, do so. In a debate forum, facts/feats/benchmarks are keys to proving thoughts; theories without a whole lot of backing that someone can just say "prove it" when presented...not so much.

okay, if your really not going to except what has been spelled out over and over, what's to stop Manhattan from doing this

He can analyze matter and change his size easily enough, so he'll probably be able to find the same spot

His teleportation and non-linear understanding of time make speed pretty much infinite for Doctor Manhattan, do I don't see Thor blocking, and even if he does, Manhattan can just just clone himself and dog pile all over the Thundergod

@Wyldsong said:

Hey, you produce the smoking gun, and I am fine with it, believe it or not. I really don't care if it exists, but I don't buy this argument you are presenting based on the unseen. You are attributing unproven power and ability to Manhattan. You may think I am a Thor fanboy, but I know far more about Manhattan and his showings than I do about Thor and his -- though I know enough to say that I am highly doubtful of Manhattan's ability in this arena. Manhattan is one of my favorite characters due to his charactersization and the restraint he shows in the main series. Before Watchmen furthered my like for the character, and it was an awesome story. Yet even I realize the limitations of arguing the character with such a lack of true blue information in a forum where all someone has to say is "well, then prove it".

If you have your smoking gun, then produce it. Not something that can be called into question, or interpreted in any other manner. Facts are king here. And regardles to what you may believe, you have not provided a true blue fact. All we have are a bunch of issues that are still being questioned in regards to Manhattan and his powerset.

everything in comics can be called into question,

I've shown the images of the guy performing chemical change feats, you said images don't count because the artists interpret them

I've shown you exposition saying that he can control atomic structure, you said that exposition shouldn't count because it's a character's interpretation

I've shown you Manhattan stating that he can change subatomic structure, and you said that we don't know that he wasn't using a machine

Vertigo comics don't use narration, which I can only assume is the only thing your gonna take as genuine evidence, You did manage to set up a series of rules that would make it impossible to quantify anything that happens in Watchmen, so there's that

@Betatesthighlander1:

"dude, like everyone who's put effort into profiling Doctor Manhattan agrees that he controls matter on a subatomic level"

Dude, just what do some of your sites say about it?

Manhattan can see time, space and matter on a subatomic level

Users can manipulate their own subatomic particles to achieve a variety of affects

So, your one, non-wiki source states he can see on a subatomic level (not affect it), and the other states he can affect his own subatomic particles (not others)…then you want to quote two other wiki sources that anyone and their dog can edit and try to pass it off as something?

"he only blew up the guy's head, because the good Doctor seems to have some liking for efficiency, that, or the news/propaganda department decided that melting a tank was more interesting, or maybe he was just playing around to see everything he could do, also, you said that artists interpretations don't count when i pointed out that the head explosion meant a chemical change, so does art count or not?"

Prove it. Wait, you can't. Oh, and that efficiency? Where was that trait when dealing with Rorschach? The head explosion..seriously, the guy’s head was blowing up, yes an artist’s interpretation of the event. The interpretation of the tank? Not too hard to see what happened there and not too hard to interpret. A melted turret, and still most of the tank was left when you have someone who supposedly can manipulate matter on a subatomic level and should have theoretically had the power to take it out much faster. You know what would have been more frightening for a propaganda video? Treating the tank like the human…but he didn’t, so the point still stands, and you can’t prove otherwise.

“I'm not sure what definition of "apology" that last statement was trying to fit.”

=)

“Is Doctor Manhattan a temporally instantaneous energy being with properties never shown in the Marvel U?”

He is a physical form with electromagnetic patterns resembling a consciousness being left over when his body is destroyed as per the Watchmen series. Electromagnetism exists in Marvel. Physical bodies exist in Marvel. Do immortal Asgardian gods exist in Watchmen?

“Thor is similar enough to a mortal that he can be smashed by fists, reported by machines, copied by machines produced in some guy's lab, manipoulated by Molecule man, transmuted by Grey Gargoyle, transported through time by Zarrko, transformed back into Don lake by Kang's machine, and healed by a Pangorian revitalization chamber”

Molecule Man, again, is far beyond and above Manhattan. As for the rest…I had a much longer retort tagging individual points, but decided to just shorten it up with this thought: Each and every example you are trying to bring up does nothing to further your argument, as none of those prove Manhattan’s actual power level or proficiency, as I have asked you to do. High points can be brought up for Thor, just as low points can, but nothing you have brought to table proves anything about what Manhattan himself can do to someone who has resisted destruction from gods far more powerful than Manhattan. Quit bringing up nonfactors and prove Manhattan’s power level here if you want to prove your point.

“that has nothing to do with him manipulating characters who have wills, yes he has to try to do something to do it, but no one else ever shows any ability to just resist his powers”

Yes it does, as he had to will his molecules back into place, showing will affecting molecules. And the tank showed good resistance…but whatever.

“yes, you can wreck five hundred pounds of dirt with a shovel, but the dirt is still gonna have more electrons than the shovel. diamonds can be wrecked by liquid oxygen, because durability is entirely different than chemical change”

Again, the ability to affect mass has nothing to do with affecting a characters in a world of people with fantastical powers and insane durability. This is you, imposing your thoughts and ideas into the equation to try and prove a point, again, and it does not hold water, and your chemical change theory is just that – a theory. You want it to be more than a theory? Prove it. And I’ll give you a hint – an artist’s rendition of a head being blown up doesn’t really qualify.

“okay, if your really not going to except what has been spelled out over and over, what's to stop Manhattan from doing this. He can analyze matter and change his size easily enough, so he'll probably be able to find the same spot. His teleportation and non-linear understanding of time make speed pretty much infinite for Doctor Manhattan, do I don't see Thor blocking, and even if he does, Manhattan can just just clone himself and dog pile all over the Thundergod.”

Lol, really? The guy who has never once shown above human level speed and has no martial arts training whatsoever is going to suddenly think to look for spots to do a nerve strike, whip out the kung fu like a proven warrior (Mantis) and pull that off? I cannot stop laughing at that… Manhattan dogpile… that is priceless…sigh…

No I am not going to accept what you have been trying to spell out, because you can’t prove it. And that is what I have been spelling out to you.

“I've shown the images of the guy performing chemical change feats, you said images don't count because the artists interpret them”

No, you haven’t shown me him performing such. You showed a guy’s head blowing up. But go on, prove it was a chemical change and not an artist’s rendition of a head blowing up. I’m waiting.

“I've shown you exposition saying that he can control atomic structure, you said that exposition shouldn't count because it's a character's interpretation”

An exposition that does nothing to show his benchmarks, actual power, or proficiency. Been over this a few times already.

“I've shown you Manhattan stating that he can change subatomic structure, and you said that we don't know that he wasn't using a machine”

No, you showed me Manhattan stating he can synthesize something, not change subatomic structure. Again, your interpretation of events.

“Vertigo comics don't use narration, which I can only assume is the only thing your gonna take as genuine evidence, You did manage to set up a series of rules that would make it impossible to quantify anything that happens in Watchmen, so there's that”

No, I didn’t set up a series of rules that make anything impossible. I have simply called things into question, and the lack of proof and truly good and quantifiable benchmarks have made that impossible (I didn't write the series, so not really my fault there). Asking for proof is not setting up a series of rules. It is simply that, asking for proof, and not accepting your interpretation of events.

Again, I don’t subscribe to this no limits bit most people want to put on Manhattan. I don’t subscribe to people giving me their interpretation of things and expecting me to accept it as gospel truth or fact. I can call into question many of your examples, and you can’t provide solid proof to back your theories up. You tell me you are, but truly you are not.

I have three main things I need to doubt Manhattan’s ability here: One, the tank issue. You can state “what if”, “maybe he was”, or whatever play on words you want to use, but the fact is, he pops baseline humans with ease, yet with the tank he is aiming his hand at, smoke is coming out of the top of the turret, and then the top is later shown melted…the rest of the tank intact. Not very impressive. Two, Thor resisting the mad god and the more intimate destruction than Manhattan would ever be capable of. Hey, if you want to make differentiations between science and magic in this regards, go for it. It’s a two way street as I stated previously. Three, Manhattan’s lack of actual showings and benchmarks. He does not have much of anything, and what he does have is not very impressive when compared to the likes of the Marvel U. It just isn’t, and flowery descriptions, expositions, and theories/interpretations on his powers does absolutely nothing to fix this. You can try and claim series intent and theoretical power levels, but his actual showings and benchmarks do not support it. Proof is king, and proof is lacking here.

You believe Manhattan wins? Fine, go for it. It really is no bother to me if you believe that, believe it or not.

.

@Wyldsong said:

@Betatesthighlander1:

"dude, like everyone who's put effort into profiling Doctor Manhattan agrees that he controls matter on a subatomic level"

Dude, just what do some of your sites say about it?

Manhattan can see time, space and matter on a subatomic level

Users can manipulate their own subatomic particles to achieve a variety of affects

So, your one, non-wiki source states he can see on a subatomic level (not affect it), and the other states he can affect his own subatomic particles (not others)…then you want to quote two other wiki sources that anyone and their dog can edit and try to pass it off as something?

wiki's aren't valid?

fine

http://chrisshaw2.blogspot.com/2012/12/doctor-manhattan-greatest-superhero.html

http://www.ovguide.com/doctor-manhattan-9202a8c04000641f800000000032ca72#

http://www.physicstoday.org/daily_edition/singularities/before_watchmen_s_em_dr_manhattan_em_a_review

http://timerime.com/en/event/64979/Jon+Osterman+039Doctor+Manhattan039/

http://suite101.com/article/watchmen-character-profiles-dr-manhattan-a63531

@Wyldsong said:

"he only blew up the guy's head, because the good Doctor seems to have some liking for efficiency, that, or the news/propaganda department decided that melting a tank was more interesting, or maybe he was just playing around to see everything he could do, also, you said that artists interpretations don't count when i pointed out that the head explosion meant a chemical change, so does art count or not?"

Prove it. Wait, you can't. Oh, and that efficiency? Where was that trait when dealing with Rorschach? The head explosion..seriously, the guy’s head was blowing up, yes an artist’s interpretation of the event. The interpretation of the tank? Not too hard to see what happened there and not too hard to interpret. A melted turret, and still most of the tank was left when you have someone who supposedly can manipulate matter on a subatomic level and should have theoretically had the power to take it out much faster. You know what would have been more frightening for a propaganda video? Treating the tank like the human…but he didn’t, so the point still stands, and you can’t prove otherwise.

he's not straining and there's nothing to suggest he's anywhere near his limits, nothing suggests he's even trying, nor is there anything to suggest that he is done with the tank, nor anything like that

making something turn into dust (on loiw grain film) doesn't look very good

your interpreting the image exactly how i interpreted the head-explosion

and if we're allowed to low-ball characters, I'll remind you that Thor vgot wrecked by Spider-Man (well a robot who copy, who fought Spider-Man and they were equals) in Avengers 11

@Wyldsong said:

“Is Doctor Manhattan a temporally instantaneous energy being with properties never shown in the Marvel U?”

He is a physical form with electromagnetic patterns resembling a consciousness being left over when his body is destroyed as per the Watchmen series. Electromagnetism exists in Marvel. Physical bodies exist in Marvel. Do immortal Asgardian gods exist in Watchmen?

his physical body is irrelevant to him (considering how he can occupy multiple or still exist after it gets wrecked)

Has Thor ever fought a temporally instantaneous being?

@Wyldsong said:

“Thor is similar enough to a mortal that he can be smashed by fists, reported by machines, copied by machines produced in some guy's lab, manipoulated by Molecule man, transmuted by Grey Gargoyle, transported through time by Zarrko, transformed back into Don lake by Kang's machine, and healed by a Pangorian revitalization chamber”

Molecule Man, again, is far beyond and above Manhattan. As for the rest…I had a much longer retort tagging individual points, but decided to just shorten it up with this thought: Each and every example you are trying to bring up does nothing to further your argument, as none of those prove Manhattan’s actual power level or proficiency, as I have asked you to do. High points can be brought up for Thor, just as low points can, but nothing you have brought to table proves anything about what Manhattan himself can do to someone who has resisted destruction from gods far more powerful than Manhattan. Quit bringing up nonfactors and prove Manhattan’s power level here if you want to prove your point.

Okay, so we don't start this up again in 3 post sets, your giving upo on the whole 'different kind of matter" argument?

@Wyldsong said:

“that has nothing to do with him manipulating characters who have wills, yes he has to try to do something to do it, but no one else ever shows any ability to just resist his powers”

Yes it does, as he had to will his molecules back into place, showing will affecting molecules. And the tank showed good resistance…but whatever.

Doctor Manhattan's will can effect molecules (and smaller stuff) because that's his super-power, that's like trying to say that people in DC can see through walls becasue Superman can, if he tries, do the same thing

The tank didn't "show resistance" Doctor Manhattan just didn't wreck it all the way

@Wyldsong said:

“yes, you can wreck five hundred pounds of dirt with a shovel, but the dirt is still gonna have more electrons than the shovel. diamonds can be wrecked by liquid oxygen, because durability is entirely different than chemical change”

Again, the ability to affect mass has nothing to do with affecting a characters in a world of people with fantastical powers and insane durability. This is you, imposing your thoughts and ideas into the equation to try and prove a point, again, and it does not hold water, and your chemical change theory is just that – a theory. You want it to be more than a theory? Prove it. And I’ll give you a hint – an artist’s rendition of a head being blown up doesn’t really qualify.

he makes his body larger, meaning he either has enough energy to convert it to the mass of a forty foot man (about 937,350 megatons of TNT) or he can transmute the Air around him into flesh

@Wyldsong said:

“okay, if your really not going to except what has been spelled out over and over, what's to stop Manhattan from doing this. He can analyze matter and change his size easily enough, so he'll probably be able to find the same spot. His teleportation and non-linear understanding of time make speed pretty much infinite for Doctor Manhattan, do I don't see Thor blocking, and even if he does, Manhattan can just just clone himself and dog pile all over the Thundergod.”

Lol, really? The guy who has never once shown above human level speed and has no martial arts training whatsoever is going to suddenly think to look for spots to do a nerve strike, whip out the kung fu like a proven warrior (Mantis) and pull that off? I cannot stop laughing at that… Manhattan dogpile… that is priceless…sigh…

No I am not going to accept what you have been trying to spell out, because you can’t prove it. And that is what I have been spelling out to you.

lets brake down speed, how much distance can be covered in a cerain amount of time, right?

okay, Doctor Manhattan comprehends time instantaneously, so I don't see how that half is limited

and he can teleport to the moon instantly, so distance is also pretty irrelevant

by the way, great job trying to pass off an argument as stupid without giving any reason why it would be anything less than rational

@Wyldsong said:

“I've shown the images of the guy performing chemical change feats, you said images don't count because the artists interpret them”

No, you haven’t shown me him performing such. You showed a guy’s head blowing up. But go on, prove it was a chemical change and not an artist’s rendition of a head blowing up. I’m waiting.

have you proven any of your claims?

the change happens on panel, where everyone can see it, in the comics I mean, if what happens in the comics doesn't count as canon, than what exactly does count as canon?

@Wyldsong said:

“I've shown you exposition saying that he can control atomic structure, you said that exposition shouldn't count because it's a character's interpretation”

An exposition that does nothing to show his benchmarks, actual power, or proficiency. Been over this a few times already.

you've been siting Thor's statements of how powerful he is, and Thor isn't exactly the most humble character in Marvel

@Wyldsong said:

“I've shown you Manhattan stating that he can change subatomic structure, and you said that we don't know that he wasn't using a machine”

No, you showed me Manhattan stating he can synthesize something, not change subatomic structure. Again, your interpretation of events.

that is not my interpretation, he's saying he can synthesize lithium, do you know the definiytion of "synthisize" or 'element" if you do, this stands pretty plainly as a subatomic manipulation feat

@Wyldsong said:

“Vertigo comics don't use narration, which I can only assume is the only thing your gonna take as genuine evidence, You did manage to set up a series of rules that would make it impossible to quantify anything that happens in Watchmen, so there's that”

No, I didn’t set up a series of rules that make anything impossible. I have simply called things into question, and the lack of proof and truly good and quantifiable benchmarks have made that impossible (I didn't write the series, so not really my fault there). Asking for proof is not setting up a series of rules. It is simply that, asking for proof, and not accepting your interpretation of events.

You've proven nothing

this entire time

when held to the same scrutiny you've given me, none of Thor's feats really work

I've given you proof and you've said that it doesn't count because it's interpretation

@Wyldsong said:

I have three main things I need to doubt Manhattan’s ability here: One, the tank issue. You can state “what if”, “maybe he was”, or whatever play on words you want to use, but the fact is, he pops baseline humans with ease, yet with the tank he is aiming his hand at, smoke is coming out of the top of the turret, and then the top is later shown melted…the rest of the tank intact. Not very impressive.

that's an interpretation of events if I've ever heard one, your basing this off of him not straining,

alsom\, going by that logic: Thor lifts a boulder in JOM 83 and it doesn't shatter in his hand, so i geuss Thor isn't strong enough to break a rock

@Wyldsong said:

Two, Thor resisting the mad god and the more intimate destruction than Manhattan would ever be capable of. Hey, if you want to make differentiations between science and magic in this regards, go for it. It’s a two way street as I stated previously.

how do we know that was more "intimate" destruction

what does intimate destruction even mean?

Thor's also been wrecked by street levelers, Mantis's attacks weren't very "intimate" but they knocked out Thor easily enough

@Wyldsong said:

Three, Manhattan’s lack of actual showings and benchmarks. He does not have much of anything, and what he does have is not very impressive when compared to the likes of the Marvel U. It just isn’t, and flowery descriptions, expositions, and theories/interpretations on his powers does absolutely nothing to fix this. You can try and claim series intent and theoretical power levels, but his actual showings and benchmarks do not support it. Proof is king, and proof is lacking here.

prove that Thor could resist Doctor Manhattan's attacks, unless we're gonna start presuming powers Don't work unless proven otherwise, we have nothing to suggest Doctor Manhattan couldn't just explode Thor's head

@Wyldsong said:

You believe Manhattan wins? Fine, go for it. It really is no bother to me if you believe that, believe it or not.

why are you even on the battles board?

@Betatesthighlander1: You see, you invalidate yourself as a debater with that last. Really? You know, I may post off the cuff at times, and say something that could be construed as rude, whether it was meant to be or not. I often find myself reviewing various comments, and even coming back to change things here and there so as not to come off sounding as rude as I do -- I most definitely edited my last comment to come off as sounding less harsh. But really, your last comment? Just weak, and lame. Bravo for nothing bud. I was being honest, I really don't care if you feel Manhattan wins, but if you want to act like a petulant little teenage forum poster, then please continue with your little photos. That is the sign of the lowest common denominator. No, truly, bravo. Please do continue, but I think we are done. I can post cute little meaningless photos as well, but it does nothing to further discussion. I'm not perfect, I know I come off sounding rude. That there was just a little beyond the normal internet banter, hence my being a little irate.

I don't care if you think Manhattan wins, so now we question why I am here? I am having a discussion, that though while heated at times, is still a discussion. It passes the time, and sometimes it helps to further a knowledge base on a character, and maybe have your eyes opened to various aspects of characters, and maybe open other peoples eyes to various aspects of characters. So, what does me caring if you believe Manhattan wins or not have to do with my being here? What?

I have told you my thoughts on Manhattan, and my like for the character. I had thought that by even continuing what I am now seeing as a farce, that you could open my eyes to something, or I could at least get you to open your eyes to the fact that you are lacking in proof. Now, you just have me writing in disgust, but I will try and hold the truly barbed responses in check.

Your whole response to me is more of the same, and you have yet to provide one bit of proof. What? Links to more of the same, that still provide no factual proof from the series itself to back it up? Seriously, what do these links do to prove anything beyond the fact that they all read the same wiki. I am not asking you for someone elses thoughts. I don't care what they think. I am talking to you, not them. Post all the links you want, and it will still leave us exactly where we are. I asked you to give me factual proof. All you can do is give me your interpretation of events, links, and then try to be cute. And you still can't even disprove my big three...no facts from you. No proof. Nothing solid. Just more of the same from you.

"prove that Thor could resist Doctor Manhattan's attacks, unless we're gonna start presuming powers Don't work unless proven otherwise, we have nothing to suggest Doctor Manhattan couldn't just explode Thor's head"

Gee...the tank. That you still cannot disprove.

"how do we know that was more "intimate" destruction. what does intimate destruction even mean?"

Really? This is something I have to explain, again? It's a more closely thorough form of destruction. He resisted being destroyed physically, mentally, and spiritually (the soul). True oblivion. That is far more thorough than Manhattan's bag of tricks.

"Thor's also been wrecked by street levelers, Mantis's attacks weren't very "intimate" but they knocked out Thor easily enough"

Thor has also withstood attacks from beings far more powerful than Mantis. We have this little thing called PIS and even jobbing at times, where characters suffer from bad and inconsistent writing. But hey, even these street levelers often have better showings than Manhattan and the tank. Again, you keep bringing up what others have done to Manhattan, yet what other characters actually have no bearing on Manhattan's power level, ability, and proficiency. It does nothing to help with the lack of actual benchmarks for Manhattan. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Manhattan is the not the same as those characters, and they are not the same as Manhattan. They are non-factors.

"that's an interpretation of events if I've ever heard one, your basing this off of him not straining,alsom\, going by that logic: Thor lifts a boulder in JOM 83 and it doesn't shatter in his hand, so i geuss Thor isn't strong enough to break a rock"

Thor lifting a boulder really in an exceedingly old comic has no bearing on Manhattan and the tank. I am not interpreting anything with that scan. So let's see, clearly in the picture he is standing there, hand out, smoke rising as the turret melts, so it was not instant by the depiction. Then the turret is melted, the rest of the tank is still standing, but he can pop baseline humans with ease? Yeah, not much to really have to interpret there bud.

The rest of your post is pretty much filled with the same tripe, but honestly, after your little act of cuteness, I really don't feel the need to continue with you. You are still providing your interpretation of events, and are not providing any solid proof. Manhattan has never been shown to fully take down a tank, and you can't seem to give us anything to counterthat. Just your thoughts, which does little to prove anything.

He lacks the concrete feats to prove he can hang. Theoretically, he could potentially be very powerful. Without the feats to back it up though, it is impossible to prove.

Don't bother responding, you have shown me your colors, and I see no reason to continue this discussion with you. Take it easy.

@Wyldsong said:

@Betatesthighlander1: You see, you invalidate yourself as a debater with that last. Really? You know, I may post off the cuff at times, and say something that could be construed as rude, whether it was meant to be or not. I often find myself reviewing various comments, and even coming back to change things here and there so as not to come off sounding as rude as I do -- I most definitely edited my last comment to come off as sounding less harsh. But really, your last comment? Just weak, and lame. Bravo for nothing bud. I was being honest, I really don't care if you feel Manhattan wins, but if you want to act like a petulant little teenage forum poster, then please continue with your little photos. That is the sign of the lowest common denominator. No, truly, bravo. Please do continue, but I think we are done. I can post cute little meaningless photos as well, but it does nothing to further discussion.

I don't care if you think Manhattan wins, so now we question why I am here? I am having a discussion, that though while heated at times, is still a discussion. It passes the time, and sometimes it helps to further a knowledge base on a character, and maybe have your eyes opened to various aspects of characters, and maybe open other peoples eyes to various aspects of characters. So, what does me caring if you believe Manhattan wins or not have to do with my being here? What?

okay, so you responded to my arguments with " I don't care" and now your saying the one who doesn't know how to debate?

so do you care or not?

sorry if my humor offended you, I'll make sure to remember that i can never joke or use visual aids in a discussion about who would win in a fight between two fictional characters, this is clearly a deadly sin of the internet, and doing it somehow means that I'm stupid

I really Don't understand why someone would be on a forum where people debate if they didn't care what other people thought.

that doesn't make any sense.

and if you don't care what i think, than there's no point in even having a discussion

@Wyldsong said:

I have told you my thoughts on Manhattan, and my like for the character. I had thought that by even continuing what I am now seeing as a farce, that you could open my eyes to something, or I could at least get you to open your eyes to the fact that you are lacking in proof. Now, you just have me writing in disgust, but I will try and hold the truly barbed responses in check.

Your not opening your eyes to obvious proof, I've given you tons of feats and you ignore all of them

and "hold the truly barbed responses in check" line is like saying "be glad I'm letting racce with me, because i totally have a gun, and i could totally shoot you if i wanted"

@Wyldsong said:

Your whole response to me is more of the same, and you have yet to provide one bit of proof. What? Links to more of the same, that still provide no factual proof from the series itself to back it up? Seriously, what do these links do to prove anything beyond the fact that they all read the same wiki. I am not asking you for someone elses thoughts. I don't care what they think. I am talking to you, not them. Post all the links you want, and it will still leave us exactly where we are. I asked you to give me factual proof. All you can do is give me your interpretation of events, links, and then try to be cute. And you still can't even disprove my big three...no facts from you. No proof. Nothing solid. Just more of the same from you.

well, there aren't "facts" pretaining to these characters there are feats in-universe, which I've shown you, and there's logic, which I've tried to use on you, and there are the conclusions other people have reached, which i have given to you

@Wyldsong said:

"prove that Thor could resist Doctor Manhattan's attacks, unless we're gonna start presuming powers Don't work unless proven otherwise, we have nothing to suggest Doctor Manhattan couldn't just explode Thor's head"

Gee...the tank. That you still cannot disprove.

okay, before you start siting the tank again, please give me the rules for what does and doesn't count as canon, bercause when i post images its interpretation, but when ytpu post them its proof, please tell me the rules

@Wyldsong said:

"how do we know that was more "intimate" destruction. what does intimate destruction even mean?"

Really? This is something I have to explain, again? It's a more closely thorough form of destruction. He resisted being destroyed physically, mentally, and spiritually (the soul). True oblivion. That is far more thorough than Manhattan's bag of tricks.

that has nothing to do with anything, "body" "soul" and "mind" are pretty vague terms, we have no idea how powerful the other guy was as far as subatomic destability goes, and Thor has been wrecked before by things much weaker than Doctor Manhattan's tricks, the scan is entirely irrelevant.

@Wyldsong said:

"Thor's also been wrecked by street levelers, Mantis's attacks weren't very "intimate" but they knocked out Thor easily enough"

Thor has also withstood attacks from beings far more powerful than Mantis. We have this little thing called PIS and even jobbing at times, where characters suffer from bad and inconsistent writing. But hey, even these street levelers often have better showings than Manhattan and the tank. Again, you keep bringing up what others have done to Manhattan, yet what other characters actually have no bearing on Manhattan's power level, ability, and proficiency. It does nothing to help with the lack of actual benchmarks for Manhattan. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. Manhattan is the not the same as those characters, and they are not the same as Manhattan. They are non-factors.

wait, all of the feats you have for Thor involve other characters who we've never seen against Doctor Manhattan

are you trying to say that mantis is stronger than Doctor Manhattan? because I don't remember her ever destroying a tank

@Wyldsong said:

"that's an interpretation of events if I've ever heard one, your basing this off of him not straining,alsom\, going by that logic: Thor lifts a boulder in JOM 83 and it doesn't shatter in his hand, so i geuss Thor isn't strong enough to break a rock"

Thor lifting a boulder really in an exceedingly old comic has no bearing on Manhattan and the tank. I am not interpreting anything with that scan. So let's see, clearly in the picture he is standing there, hand out, smoke rising as the turret melts, so it was not instant by the depiction. Then the turret is melted, the rest of the tank is still standing, but he can pop baseline humans with ease? Yeah, not much to really have to interpret there bud.

Doctor Manhattan isn't using his full power, there's something called "restraint" every superhero uses iit on a regular basis, just because there not doing something doesn't mean that they can't, I'm sorry that you can't understand that just because someone is picking up a sheet of paper, it doesn't mean that carrying paper is the best thing that they can do.

so is it interpretation when I'm pointing out that the guy's head explosion is obviously not made of head? becasue it wasn't, I'm doing prety much the same thing right there, and your not really giving me a reason why what your doing is any different

@Wyldsong said:

The rest of your post is pretty much filled with the same tripe, but honestly, after your little act of cuteness, I really don't feel the need to continue with you. You are still providing your interpretation of events, and are not providing any solid proof. Manhattan has never been shown to fully take down a tank, and you can't seem to give us anything to counterthat. Just your thoughts, which does little to prove anything.

do you seriously not understand what "restraint" is

so, to be clear, your giving up, but not because you know I'm right, but because you just don't feel like debating anymore?

@Wyldsong said:

He lacks the concrete feats to prove he can hang. Theoretically, he could potentially be very powerful. Without the feats to back it up though, it is impossible to prove.

Don't bother responding, you have shown me your colors, and I see no reason to continue this discussion with you. Take it easy.

seriously, whya re you on a forum where you justify your opinion to other people if your not willing to justify your opinion to other people?

so do you care or not?

sorry if my humor offended you, but i really Don't understand why someone would be on a forum where people debate if they didn't care what other people

and the whole "don't respond" line is pretty brilliant

people who are actually willing to debate, you guys got any opinions?

@Betatesthighlander1:

I've said my piece. Don't feel like talking about Manhattan; these threads always end in disaster.

@Betatesthighlander1: I find your humor in this instance to be of a juvenile and petulant nature, and your whole post in response a waste. I already told you not to bother, as I didn't care to read anything but the last statement, not really interested in reading more of the same from you. You want a discussion with someone? Then leave your attempts at trying to be cute out of it. This was not an attempt to elicit a response. This was a true showing of displeasure with the turn of events. Now move along.

@JediXMan said:

@Betatesthighlander1:

I've said my piece. Don't feel like talking about Manhattan; these threads always end in disaster.

QFT

@darkelf35 said:

gets to 4 at least

Doesn't. This entire thread is mostly about Manhattan vs Thor. There's really no argument regarding the others in this list (aside from the Avengers, which is still vague).

@Wyldsong: so, one joke and suddenly I'm incapable of having any sort of logical discussion?

that's what your saying, after i use a bit of a gag as a visual aid suddenly everything I've ever said is rendered invalid?

you realize that telling someone not to respond a\on a board where its expected for people to respond can hardly be considered an order?

I mean, I'm not really sure why you just expect someone to not respond because you told them not to

@Betatesthighlander1: Very simply, and plainly to warn you that further words would be wasted. I am quite aware that giving demands on an open forum is an act of futility. Now, leave it be, and let this not further derail the thread. We are done here.

@Wyldsong:

are you saying that i won?

because you sound like someone who just realized that they couldn't win

@JediXMan said:

@darkelf35 said:

gets to 4 at least

Doesn't. This entire thread is mostly about Manhattan vs Thor. There's really no argument regarding the others in this list (aside from the Avengers, which is still vague).

Yes, this does seem to be the theme here. The other theme being it seems those that cannot produce a shred of evidence and don't know when to leave things alone it seems, but I digress. These kids today....

stops at 6

@Wyldsong: oh, and cby youyr definition, here's Thor having trouble with a truck

and Trucks are usually less durable than tanks

@Wyldsong: and yes, I have produced tons of evidence, your just ignoring it

Alright, final thoughts and I am done here, that I will try and keep down to a minimum, ignoring the obvious bait from others using blurry scans from ancient books...which I went ahead and took that talk to a PM so as to hopefully cut down on the derailing of the thread, and to save everyone's eyes from the walls of words.

In a fight against Thor, I still say Thor takes the majority. He has resisted Glory's power as shown, and as someone stated earlier, fought beings with far more proven destructive capability. He has faced celestials, heralds, skyfathers and so on. Manhattan's top destructive level being large areas of territory as stated in the series, and the most durable thing we have to show would be the turret of the tank. In a fight to the death, I don't see anything that convinces me he is capable of taking out Thor. He just lacks the feats to prove as such.

Since BFR is taken out of the picture, Manhattan's proven shot at a win is kind of null and void. Since Manhattan warps space time to achieve his teleportation, it should prove effective. I guess the argument could be made of him getting teleported somewhere that would kill him...but he would have to achieve it by BFR first...so that turns into a debate of semantics, and I have no desire to go there.

Even with teleportation, I would probably still give Thor more wins than not, because that is not really a first line tactic for Manhattan. Until my post on the nature of Manhattan is disproven, and someone can fully prove he can survive what Thor can dish out, Thor has enough exotic and more mundane attacks he can produce in a to the death, win by any means necessary scenario.

That being said, I won't argue Dr Strange very heavily, but I don't believe he can get past Strange. Doom, he definitely does not get past. Between tech in his armor that can drain a celestial, magic, combat prowess, and the ovoid mind transfer is all else fails, I don't see Manhattan being able to take the majority there.

Manhattan will stop at 5. He is way too much for Thor.

Omniscience.

if the doc is weak to magic , stops at 1

@SilverGalford: when is that ever stated?

@TheTmac said:

All Doc has to do is wave his hand and Thor is dead.

Implying he can hit harder than Celestials...

Don't make me laugh, Manhattan stops at Thor.

Doom would destroy Dr Manhatten and he might not even get past Thor.

@SilverGalford said:

if the doc is weak to magic , stops at 1

I am taking this as a question almost here. Magic has never been shown to exist in the Watchmen, so there is no precedent set for him being weak against it. I wouldn't guess that he would be weak to it, nor have any special resistance to it.