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#1 Edited by WillPayton (9443 posts) - - Show Bio

vs

Most powerful version of Dr Fate (Nabu) vs adult Franklin Richards. No prep, no BFR.

Who wins?

#2 Edited by King Saturn (224168 posts) - - Show Bio

I am tempted to say Franklin Richards only because high end Reality Warping can easily appear as Spectre level power. The issue would be if Fate's Magic can nullify Franklin's power somehow.

#3 Edited by AllStarSuperman (21843 posts) - - Show Bio

Fate IMO. Most people will say FR though...

#4 Posted by dondave (37374 posts) - - Show Bio

I am tempted to say Franklin Richards only because high end Reality Warping can easily appear as Spectre level power. The issue would be if Fate's Magic can nullify Franklin's power somehow.

QFT

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#5 Edited by WillPayton (9443 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn said:

I am tempted to say Franklin Richards only because high end Reality Warping can easily appear as Spectre level power. The issue would be if Fate's Magic can nullify Franklin's power somehow.

I've wondered, in comics, is there any meaningful difference between "reality warping" and "magic"? Has either Marvel or DC ever given a definition of either that would suggest they are inherently different?

The only thing I can think of is that "magic" usually has some rules associated with it. Then again, even reality warping has limits... otherwise any reality warper would be omnipotent, which they are not.

Reality warping changes or ignores the laws of physics, while magic replaces them with its own rules.

#6 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Franklin Richards.

#7 Edited by momo111191 (246 posts) - - Show Bio

Dr. Fate

#8 Posted by Shawnbaby (10763 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn said:

I am tempted to say Franklin Richards only because high end Reality Warping can easily appear as Spectre level power. The issue would be if Fate's Magic can nullify Franklin's power somehow.

I've wondered, in comics, is there any meaningful difference between "reality warping" and "magic"? Has either Marvel or DC ever given a definition of either that would suggest they are inherently different?

The only thing I can think of is that "magic" usually has some rules associated with it. Then again, even reality warping has limits... otherwise any reality warper would be omnipotent, which they are not.

Reality warping changes or ignores the laws of physics, while magic replaces them with its own rules.

Feat-wise both DC and Marvel seem to regard Reality Warpers as being able to do much more than Magic Users. Things on the level of House of M and Age of X seem to be beyond the scope of Magic users. Though sometimes it's really hard to tell where one ends and the other begins. I'm not sure either company has ever really set up defining boundaries for either.

#9 Posted by Sethlol (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

Fate

#10 Edited by russellmania77 (15307 posts) - - Show Bio

Fate IMO. Most people will say FR though...

most people arent as retarded as me bro :D i say fate too lol

#11 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

FR

#12 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4129 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn said:

I am tempted to say Franklin Richards only because high end Reality Warping can easily appear as Spectre level power. The issue would be if Fate's Magic can nullify Franklin's power somehow.

I've wondered, in comics, is there any meaningful difference between "reality warping" and "magic"? Has either Marvel or DC ever given a definition of either that would suggest they are inherently different?

The only thing I can think of is that "magic" usually has some rules associated with it. Then again, even reality warping has limits... otherwise any reality warper would be omnipotent, which they are not.

Reality warping changes or ignores the laws of physics, while magic replaces them with its own rules.

reality warping is a power and magic is more like a source. Mutants like Franklin warp reality using psionic energy, Wanda on the other hand warped reality using a magical source.

In short reality warping can be done by magic just like it can be done through psionics and Wandas magical reality warping feats are far above any of Franklins non-magic ones.

#13 Posted by WillPayton (9443 posts) - - Show Bio

.

#14 Posted by WillPayton (9443 posts) - - Show Bio

No more opinions? Common guys, I think this'd be a cool battle. Join in!

#15 Posted by FrozenPhoenix (1722 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: Well they're both good guys with too much power for their own good.

FR is just too much of a powerhouse though... Fate is awesome, I don't want to see him die but he does.

#16 Posted by WillPayton (9443 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: Well they're both good guys with too much power for their own good.

FR is just too much of a powerhouse though... Fate is awesome, I don't want to see him die but he does.

Lets not low-ball Fate. He went toe-to-toe with the Spectre...

#17 Posted by New_World_Order (13187 posts) - - Show Bio

FR.

#18 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

that's nabu, and even he said that spectre should have destroyed him in an instant if his magic wasn't gone

though on the other hand nabu wasn't trying to destroy the spectre, so it's really irrelevant to bring up.

in any case, do i need to remind you that franklin destroyed a couple of mad celestials?

the rest are irrelevant since galactus continued the job.

these are the same mad celestials who tanked hits from an alternate IG, UN, universal entropy guns, you name it.

even as a kid, franklin created multiple pocket universes at once, without even realizing it, and im not talking about the counter earth nor the one seen in fantastic four # 574.

adult franklin takes this without a doubt

#19 Posted by Schmalzel (339 posts) - - Show Bio

How is this even a discussion, unless Dr. Fate is on a cosmic level which he isn't, he isn't touching Franklin. As a kid he stopped a celestial blast and if he can take on Celestials and even live to tell about it let alone destroy them no way Fate stands a chance, who is more on par with Strange then Richards.

#20 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

Franklin Richards.

#21 Posted by WillPayton (9443 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

that's nabu

Nabu is the most powerful version of Fate. I thought that was generally understood?

He's the one in this fight.

How is this even a discussion, unless Dr. Fate is on a cosmic level which he isn't

Nabu Fate is a cosmic level being, who is basically the most powerful Lord of Order, and is something like 10 Billion years old.

#22 Posted by ImNemotheGemini (845 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean... Franklin !!

#23 Posted by Veravin (660 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: even though fate/nabu is 1 billion years old, Franklin as a baby created his own mini UNIVERSE. & a pocket dimension; why hasn't fate done that yet?

#24 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5408 posts) - - Show Bio

FR

#25 Posted by WillPayton (9443 posts) - - Show Bio

@veravin said:

@willpayton: even though fate/nabu is 1 billion years old, Franklin as a baby created his own mini UNIVERSE. & a pocket dimension; why hasn't fate done that yet?

Hmmm, I dont know. How is that relevant? Are you claiming that only characters that have created universes can beat Franklin?

How many universes has the Spectre created?

#26 Posted by MonsterStomp (17884 posts) - - Show Bio

This is an interesting one actually.

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#27 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@willpayton:

that's nabu

Nabu is the most powerful version of Fate. I thought that was generally understood?

He's the one in this fight.

yeah, i didn't read the op properly, i thought you're using hector, but nabu took over in JSA #78, and then fought the spectre in day of vengeance special. My bad. But It doesn't change the outcome.

@veravin said:

@willpayton: even though fate/nabu is 1 billion years old, Franklin as a baby created his own mini UNIVERSE. & a pocket dimension; why hasn't fate done that yet?

he has done this more than once, and he created several in daydreamers #3 (he created them earlier, just showing the evidence)

#28 Posted by Schmalzel (339 posts) - - Show Bio

@veravin said:

@willpayton: even though fate/nabu is 1 billion years old, Franklin as a baby created his own mini UNIVERSE. & a pocket dimension; why hasn't fate done that yet?

Hmmm, I dont know. How is that relevant? Are you claiming that only characters that have created universes can beat Franklin?

How many universes has the Spectre created?

Even if this Fate is up there is he stopping Celestials? I don't like how powerful some characters are made, but Franklin Richards is above any Fate level character for the fact he busted Celestials and has enough power to obviously keep beings like that (Galactus level or higher) in check.

#29 Posted by i_like_swords (14307 posts) - - Show Bio

Are there any silent scrollers like me that like reading these battles, but have no idea about either guy?

Maybe thats just me ^.^

#30 Posted by MonsterStomp (17884 posts) - - Show Bio

Are there any silent scrollers like me that like reading these battles, but have no idea about either guy?

Maybe thats just me ^.^

Me lol. I know little about Franklin but it's always good to learn.

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#31 Posted by i_like_swords (14307 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

Are there any silent scrollers like me that like reading these battles, but have no idea about either guy?

Maybe thats just me ^.^

Me lol. I know little about Franklin but it's always good to learn.

I just know of his feats and that he's a high end reality warper. All I know on Fate is he's around Dr Strange's area.

But yeah, still good to learn. The battle forum is where I've learnt about basically every character.

#32 Edited by MonsterStomp (17884 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@i_like_swords said:

Are there any silent scrollers like me that like reading these battles, but have no idea about either guy?

Maybe thats just me ^.^

Me lol. I know little about Franklin but it's always good to learn.

I just know of his feats and that he's a high end reality warper. All I know on Fate is he's around Dr Strange's area.

But yeah, still good to learn. The battle forum is where I've learnt about basically every character.

SAME! Learn the most in CaV battles.

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#33 Posted by SOG7dc (7163 posts) - - Show Bio

Idk anything about franklin but I know fate is a basses magician and he looks cooler lol so fate wins

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#34 Posted by ImBoredLetsDebate (484 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

@veravin said:

@willpayton: even though fate/nabu is 1 billion years old, Franklin as a baby created his own mini UNIVERSE. & a pocket dimension; why hasn't fate done that yet?

Hmmm, I dont know. How is that relevant? Are you claiming that only characters that have created universes can beat Franklin?

How many universes has the Spectre created?

Even if this Fate is up there is he stopping Celestials? I don't like how powerful some characters are made, but Franklin Richards is above any Fate level character for the fact he busted Celestials and has enough power to obviously keep beings like that (Galactus level or higher) in check.

Spectre >>> Celestrials...

#35 Edited by i_like_swords (14307 posts) - - Show Bio

@i_like_swords said:

@monsterstomp said:

@i_like_swords said:

Are there any silent scrollers like me that like reading these battles, but have no idea about either guy?

Maybe thats just me ^.^

Me lol. I know little about Franklin but it's always good to learn.

I just know of his feats and that he's a high end reality warper. All I know on Fate is he's around Dr Strange's area.

But yeah, still good to learn. The battle forum is where I've learnt about basically every character.

SAME! Learn the most in CaV battles.

Yeah definitely.

#36 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

Spectre >>> Celestrials...

did you ignore the part where spectre should have killed him in an instant? also, nabu's goal was never fighting the spectre, he only wanted to give spectre a new host:

#37 Edited by ImBoredLetsDebate (484 posts) - - Show Bio

@imboredletsdebate said:

Spectre >>> Celestrials...

did you ignore the part where spectre should have killed him in an instant? also, nabu's goal was never fighting the spectre, he only wanted to give spectre a new host:

No, I read that, but that doesn't matter. He was still able to exchange blows with him and his blows >>> the celestrials.

Also, I don't know much about the Spectre, but it seems you are ignoring the part where Fate said, "You've devoured so much raw magic over the past few days." which means that Spectre would have been amped, and that is the only reason Fate said that.

#38 Posted by comic_book_fan (5633 posts) - - Show Bio

franklyn stomps.

#39 Posted by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer said:

@imboredletsdebate said:

Spectre >>> Celestrials...

did you ignore the part where spectre should have killed him in an instant? also, nabu's goal was never fighting the spectre, he only wanted to give spectre a new host:

No, I read that, but that doesn't matter. He was still able to exchange blows with him and his blows >>> the celestrials.

Also, I don't know much about the Spectre, but it seems you are ignoring the part where Fate said, "You've devoured so much raw magic over the past few days." which means that Spectre would have been amped, and that is the only reason Fate said that.

his battle with the spectre wasn't really all that impressive. In the issues of day of vengeance spectre's battle with an amped captain marvel was affecting entire dimensions, with nabu, not even close.

Spectre wasn't able to draw on the magic. For instance, in day of vengeance #6, he defeated shazam by absorbing magic around him, even draining shazam himself out of magic, with nabu that wasn't the case.

Also, nabu lost to mordru in JSA #80, he only defeated him with help. Though mordru was quite impressive in that arc, and their battle took them into separate realities. Nothing on the mad celestial's level though.

#40 Posted by WillPayton (9443 posts) - - Show Bio

@imboredletsdebate said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@imboredletsdebate said:

Spectre >>> Celestrials...

did you ignore the part where spectre should have killed him in an instant? also, nabu's goal was never fighting the spectre, he only wanted to give spectre a new host:

No, I read that, but that doesn't matter. He was still able to exchange blows with him and his blows >>> the celestrials.

Also, I don't know much about the Spectre, but it seems you are ignoring the part where Fate said, "You've devoured so much raw magic over the past few days." which means that Spectre would have been amped, and that is the only reason Fate said that.

his battle with the spectre wasn't really all that impressive. In the issues of day of vengeance spectre's battle with an amped captain marvel was affecting entire dimensions, with nabu, not even close.

Spectre wasn't able to draw on the magic. For instance, in day of vengeance #6, he defeated shazam by absorbing magic around him, even draining shazam himself out of magic, with nabu that wasn't the case.

Also, nabu lost to mordru in JSA #80, he only defeated him with help. Though mordru was quite impressive in that arc, and their battle took them into separate realities. Nothing on the mad celestial's level though.

Dont forget that Mordru is a Lord of Chaos himself, and extremely powerful.

I think the Fate/Spectre fight was very impressive. Fate wasnt trying to win because he really cant win against a full-powered Spectre. But, that fact that he could take blow after blow and survive long enough against a bloodlusted Spectre is something that I dont see Franklin doing.

Also, remember that the feats of adult Franklin against Galactus and the Celestials were when he was amped... IIRC. But, please correct me if I'm wrong about that.

#41 Posted by Gritterr (491 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: there was no amp. adult franklin used kid franklins power to revive galactus. he killed 2 celestials with his own power. hickman confirmed this on formspring as well.

#42 Edited by rolldestroyer (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer said:

@imboredletsdebate said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@imboredletsdebate said:

Spectre >>> Celestrials...

did you ignore the part where spectre should have killed him in an instant? also, nabu's goal was never fighting the spectre, he only wanted to give spectre a new host:

No, I read that, but that doesn't matter. He was still able to exchange blows with him and his blows >>> the celestrials.

Also, I don't know much about the Spectre, but it seems you are ignoring the part where Fate said, "You've devoured so much raw magic over the past few days." which means that Spectre would have been amped, and that is the only reason Fate said that.

his battle with the spectre wasn't really all that impressive. In the issues of day of vengeance spectre's battle with an amped captain marvel was affecting entire dimensions, with nabu, not even close.

Spectre wasn't able to draw on the magic. For instance, in day of vengeance #6, he defeated shazam by absorbing magic around him, even draining shazam himself out of magic, with nabu that wasn't the case.

Also, nabu lost to mordru in JSA #80, he only defeated him with help. Though mordru was quite impressive in that arc, and their battle took them into separate realities. Nothing on the mad celestial's level though.

Dont forget that Mordru is a Lord of Chaos himself, and extremely powerful.

I think the Fate/Spectre fight was very impressive. Fate wasnt trying to win because he really cant win against a full-powered Spectre. But, that fact that he could take blow after blow and survive long enough against a bloodlusted Spectre is something that I dont see Franklin doing.

Also, remember that the feats of adult Franklin against Galactus and the Celestials were when he was amped... IIRC. But, please correct me if I'm wrong about that.

yeah, never said otherwise, he's still nowhere near on the level of mad celestials.

to me it wasn't impressive, here's the full fight:

the rest i already showed you.

as i mentioned earlier, spectre's battle with CM was felt throughout multiple dimensions, here nothing of the sort happened, not to mention that spectre was weakened here. And spectre wasn't at full power...........at all, unbound spectre is a bloodlusted spectre, yes, but not full power.

no amp was involved in regards to fighting the celestials, unless yo're talking about him reviving galactus, as was already mentioned by another user,

#43 Edited by GhostRavage (8955 posts) - - Show Bio

Fate is such a cool character... One of my favorites of DC even though i don't know much about him. I'll reserve my opinion of this battle until someone post feats equally powerful as Adult Franklin Richards... If he can fight Cosmic Entities above Galactus Level, then he sure has a chance.

#44 Posted by WillPayton (9443 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah, never said otherwise, he's still nowhere near on the level of mad celestials.

to me it wasn't impressive, here's the full fight:

A mad celestial would have no chance to challenge the Spectre.

You can think that holding off a bloodlusted Spectre is not impressive, but I do.

#45 Posted by lol (4989 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#46 Edited by BaneStrokeLoboGrundyBatArrow (1394 posts) - - Show Bio

Fate

#47 Posted by lol (4989 posts) - - Show Bio
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#48 Edited by beatboks1 (7219 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: that was only one of four battles that Fate and Spectre have had. In the others Spec fought the original Kent Nelson ( Classic Fate) and in one stated he could not destroy him. The only way Spectre could defeat Classic Fate was through BFR. This is more due to Classic Fate's compete immunity to reality warping as shown when he faced Ynar and Vaneamon who between them were stated to "warp the cosmos" and who changed everything about the universe to something completely new and different. stars and planets ceased to be. Only Kent/Fate, his wife Inza and their tower was unaffected. When fate defeated them he casually recreated the universe back to the way it was.

In DOV Spectre had already destroyed and absorbed the power of many magical beings and places before facing Nabu. Shazam had spent days amping his power in preparation for Spectres visit which was why he sent Captain Marvel to detain him. Also Cap in his battle with Spec was being fed power by every mystic in the DCU still alive in the hopes Cap would save them. Despite all this Nabu lasted longer without amping than any of them and was able to make Spectre Use more power than he had to that point to make the killing stroke on Nabu so that the presence would notice its wayward dog and put it back on its leash. Nabu's only intent was to make Spectre use enough power to make the presence notice his actions. How the hell can anyone say that any battle with the Spectre in DoV was better or more impressive than Nabu's when it's the one that stopped him and it's stated Spec used more power than in all of them in it?

Not sure who wins but If Nabu has the same protection from reality warping that Classic Fate has ( which he should because he gave it to him as well as to Jarred Stephens) then it's going to be one bloody long fight

#49 Posted by WillPayton (9443 posts) - - Show Bio

@rolldestroyer: that was only one of four battles that Fate and Spectre have had. In the others Spec fought the original Kent Nelson ( Classic Fate) and in one stated he could not destroy him. The only way Spectre could defeat Classic Fate was through BFR. This is more due to Classic Fate's compete immunity to reality warping as shown when he faced Ynar and Vaneamon who between them were stated to "warp the cosmos" and who changed everything about the universe to something completely new and different. stars and planets ceased to be. Only Kent/Fate, his wife Inza and their tower was unaffected. When fate defeated them he casually recreated the universe back to the way it was.

In DOV Spectre had already destroyed and absorbed the power of many magical beings and places before facing Nabu. Shazam had spent days amping his power in preparation for Spectres visit which was why he sent Captain Marvel to detain him. Also Cap in his battle with Spec was being fed power by every mystic in the DCU still alive in the hopes Cap would save them. Despite all this Nabu lasted longer without amping than any of them and was able to make Spectre Use more power than he had to that point to make the killing stroke on Nabu so that the presence would notice its wayward dog and put it back on its leash. Nabu's only intent was to make Spectre use enough power to make the presence notice his actions. How the hell can anyone say that any battle with the Spectre in DoV was better or more impressive than Nabu's when it's the one that stopped him and it's stated Spec used more power than in all of them in it?

Not sure who wins but If Nabu has the same protection from reality warping that Classic Fate has ( which he should because he gave it to him as well as to Jarred Stephens) then it's going to be one bloody long fight

Good points.

#50 Posted by Blackice709 (472 posts) - - Show Bio

FR