Dr. Doom VS Sauron

@Baldy: Drained only by his own mistake (making things that require too much power to put into, but the ring itself preserve his power, and he can remotely use it), trapped , first you must catch him, and how will you do it? He went to Eonwe after War of Wrath willingly in hopes of pardon, but Eonwe could not give it to him, so he told him to face judgement by the Valar themselves, he refused and escaped, that means, to trap him would be extremely difficult even for other Maiar, which some considerable number took part in the War. In spiritual form he can go anywhere, as I posted earlier ,,They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Eä where they desired to be." Only Morgoth was imprisoned in the Void, AFTER losing much of his power, and Valar sealed him, are you suggesting that Doom has powers of the Valar combined? Not likely. Still Morgoth will return in FULL might to cause his world's version of Ragnarok, Armagedon (meaning he will recover his power after enough time passes, so the same applies to others of his kind). Morgoth was a shadow of his former self, and didn't even had a chance to escape, his earlier imprisonment in Valinor for three ages was possible by use of Angainor and intervention of Tulkas, he always was strong enough to face Morgoth in combat. Morgoth example surely is irrelevant, but it is said that even after imprisonment his influence still is felt on the world, Valar could not destroy ultimately one of their own race, even they don't have means. And WHY Sauron doesn't have enough power to breach forcefield?

He made those Watchers and knows something about them, and those in Cirith Ungol were probaly weaker versions, this tower is just small outpost, Minas Morgul should have stronger ones, Gollum mentions about watchers in the valley. If he could create such invisible barriers he knows himself how to defeat it.

@TheGoldenOne said:

@nickthedevil said:

@jeanroygrant said:

@nickthedevil said:

@jeanroygrant said:

Dr.Doom

@XMen1963 said:

Sauron. So easily.

No.

Yes???

Sauron was shaping planet earth and traveling other dimensions with a snap of a finger. he was switching points of view (literally) and a reality bender.

Sauron stomps doom for all he's got, takes his tech, Kingdom, and destroys it because he doesn't need them.

Scans?

LOL.

HAHAHAHAHA

In order to match two different characters from different universes, we must make a common ground for the two of them, with standardized laws of reality, if not it would be dishonest, preferencing one universe laws over another.

@fantasywind said:

In order to match two different characters from different universes, we must make a common ground for the two of them, with standardized laws of reality, if not it would be dishonest, preferencing one universe laws over another.

Exactly.

@nickthedevil:

@TheGoldenOne said:

@nickthedevil said:

@jeanroygrant said:

@nickthedevil said:

@jeanroygrant said:

Dr.Doom

@XMen1963 said:

Sauron. So easily.

No.

Yes???

Sauron was shaping planet earth and traveling other dimensions with a snap of a finger. he was switching points of view (literally) and a reality bender.

Sauron stomps doom for all he's got, takes his tech, Kingdom, and destroys it because he doesn't need them.

Scans?

LOL.

for the sake of all things dc, marvel, rowling and tokien, STOP QUOTING THIS SAURON SO EASILY COMMENT, PLEESE

@Baldy: You just don\t understand. Some things, cannot be interpreted. We haven't seen anyone or anything hurt it. So we cannot assume, some guy with some superpowered technology is going to hurt it.

Read my post before you give pointless arguments, where did I say that Sauron is immune to absorbtion or anything? I didn't.

Yes, but Morogth was trapped in his body, that's why they were able to trap him.

@fantasywind said:

@Baldy: Drained only by his own mistake (making things that require too much power to put into, but the ring itself preserve his power, and he can remotely use it), trapped , first you must catch him, and how will you do it? He went to Eonwe after War of Wrath willingly in hopes of pardon, but Eonwe could not give it to him, so he told him to face judgement by the Valar themselves, he refused and escaped, that means, to trap him would be extremely difficult even for other Maiar, which some considerable number took part in the War. In spiritual form he can go anywhere, as I posted earlier ,,They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Eä where they desired to be." Only Morgoth was imprisoned in the Void, AFTER losing much of his power, and Valar sealed him, are you suggesting that Doom has powers of the Valar combined? Not likely. Still Morgoth will return in FULL might to cause his world's version of Ragnarok, Armagedon (meaning he will recover his power after enough time passes, so the same applies to others of his kind). Morgoth was a shadow of his former self, and didn't even had a chance to escape, his earlier imprisonment in Valinor for three ages was possible by use of Angainor and intervention of Tulkas, he always was strong enough to face Morgoth in combat. Morgoth example surely is irrelevant, but it is said that even after imprisonment his influence still is felt on the world, Valar could not destroy ultimately one of their own race, even they don't have means. And WHY Sauron doesn't have enough power to breach forcefield?

He made those Watchers and knows something about them, and those in Cirith Ungol were probaly weaker versions, this tower is just small outpost, Minas Morgul should have stronger ones, Gollum mentions about watchers in the valley. If he could create such invisible barriers he knows himself how to defeat it.

He doesn't need to 'catch' Sauron. If Sauron leaves the battle then he's lost via self-bfr.

Sauron has never demonstrated attacks that come even close to being powerful enough to get through Doom's defenses.

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: You just don\t understand. Some things, cannot be interpreted. We haven't seen anyone or anything hurt it. So we cannot assume, some guy with some superpowered technology is going to hurt it.

Read my post before you give pointless arguments, where did I say that Sauron is immune to absorbtion or anything? I didn't.

Yes, but Morogth was trapped in his body, that's why they were able to trap him.

All of this is either meaningless or speculation.

First of all: Sauron can only be harmed by high level magic, but even that won't kill him (he is, in fact, immortal). Dr.Doom (mortal) couldn't harm him at all .

Second of all: Dr.Doom would probably fall to Sauron's will. But that's not all: In the movies, the Eye of Sauron had a very powerful ability: If he looked directly into a normal mortal they would have suffered murderous pain, or sometimes even death, it could also freeze the enemy, making them unable to move.

Sauron doesn't have even have to fight him on a physical plane, because he wins by default.

@izbighulk said:

First of all: Sauron can only be harmed by high level magic, but even that won't kill him (he is, in fact, immortal). Dr.Doom (mortal) couldn't harm him at all .

This isn't even close to true. He was beaten by Huan the wolfhound and had his finger cut off with a broken sword.

Even if it was true, which it isn't as previously explained, Dr. Doom is a powerful sorcerer with magical feats well in excess of the wizards in LoTR. Even Dr. Stange has said that Doom knows thing about the dark arts that Stange doesn't even know, and he's the Sorcerer Supreme...

@izbighulk said:

Second of all: Dr.Doom would probably fall to Sauron's will. But that's not all: In the movies, the Eye of Sauron had a very powerful ability: If he looked directly into a normal mortal they would have suffered murderous pain, or sometimes even death, it could also freeze the enemy, making them unable to move.

I've already posted scans of Doom effortlessly resisting the power of the Purple Man with willpower alone.

In addition...

@izbighulk said:

Sauron doesn't have even have to fight him on a physical plane, because he wins by default.

Doom regularly fought Mephisto using magic, extra-planar combat is old hat to him. Here he guides and teleports Meggan out of hell, across planar barriers...

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: You just don\t understand. Some things, cannot be interpreted. We haven't seen anyone or anything hurt it. So we cannot assume, some guy with some superpowered technology is going to hurt it.

Read my post before you give pointless arguments, where did I say that Sauron is immune to absorbtion or anything? I didn't.

Yes, but Morogth was trapped in his body, that's why they were able to trap him.

All of this is either meaningless or speculation.

It's not a speculation. No one in the whole series has affected one's essence, and no one stole the other's powers. If you want to prove me wrong, you better have concrete proof of what you say.

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: You just don\t understand. Some things, cannot be interpreted. We haven't seen anyone or anything hurt it. So we cannot assume, some guy with some superpowered technology is going to hurt it.

Read my post before you give pointless arguments, where did I say that Sauron is immune to absorbtion or anything? I didn't.

Yes, but Morogth was trapped in his body, that's why they were able to trap him.

All of this is either meaningless or speculation.

It's not a speculation. No one in the whole series has affected one's essence, and no one stole the other's powers. If you want to prove me wrong, you better have concrete proof of what you say.

I've already provided evidence. Doom has successfully used these tactics against beings that make Sauron look like a gnat.

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: You just don\t understand. Some things, cannot be interpreted. We haven't seen anyone or anything hurt it. So we cannot assume, some guy with some superpowered technology is going to hurt it.

Read my post before you give pointless arguments, where did I say that Sauron is immune to absorbtion or anything? I didn't.

Yes, but Morogth was trapped in his body, that's why they were able to trap him.

All of this is either meaningless or speculation.

It's not a speculation. No one in the whole series has affected one's essence, and no one stole the other's powers. If you want to prove me wrong, you better have concrete proof of what you say.

I've already provided evidence. Doom has successfully used these tactics against beings that make Sauron look like a gnat.

That's not proof, and you know that. You can't assume that. You should have proof from both sides. Meaning: To prove that Doom is capable of stealing other's powers (which you did). And that Sauron's powers can be stolen (which you didn't prove).

Doom may be able to steal powers from beings much more powerful than Sauron, but that doesn't mean that he can steal Sauron's. It's like saying that Thor is faster than Flash, because Thor has beaten more powerful beings. But these more powerful beings, aren't necessarily faster than flash, only more powerful.

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: You just don\t understand. Some things, cannot be interpreted. We haven't seen anyone or anything hurt it. So we cannot assume, some guy with some superpowered technology is going to hurt it.

Read my post before you give pointless arguments, where did I say that Sauron is immune to absorbtion or anything? I didn't.

Yes, but Morogth was trapped in his body, that's why they were able to trap him.

All of this is either meaningless or speculation.

It's not a speculation. No one in the whole series has affected one's essence, and no one stole the other's powers. If you want to prove me wrong, you better have concrete proof of what you say.

I've already provided evidence. Doom has successfully used these tactics against beings that make Sauron look like a gnat.

That's not proof, and you know that. You can't assume that. You should have proof from both sides. Meaning: To prove that Doom is capable of stealing other's powers (which you did). And that Sauron's powers can be stolen (which you didn't prove).

Doom may be able to steal powers from beings much more powerful than Sauron, but that doesn't mean that he can steal Sauron's. It's like saying that Thor is faster than Flash, because Thor has beaten more powerful beings. But these more powerful beings, aren't necessarily faster than flash, only more powerful.

That isn't a logical extension of the logic I'm using. Using my logic you would instead say..

"Flash is faster than Thor because he has beaten characters that are faster than Thor in a race"

Which is perfectly logical.

Power transfer DOES exist in LoTR. What on earth do you think the One Ring is? Sauron imbued it with his power. Why do you think Morgoth was weaker when he was sealed away? Because his power had slowly been transferred away from him into his creations and seeped out through his evil actions.

All of these things prove that the power of LoTR beings, even the most powerful of them, can be transferred away from them and they can also be sealed away. All things Doom happens to excel at.

@Baldy: Power transfer was used willingly by Sauron. If there was such a thing, why didn't the Valar steal Sauron's powers and prevent all the disasters that he made. They are much more powerful than him after all.

Wrong again. He was weakened, his powers weren't transfered away from him. He was only weakened, all his powers still existed, he just wasn't able to use them, because he was weakened.

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: Power transfer was used willingly by Sauron. If there was such a thing, why didn't the Valar steal Sauron's powers and prevent all the disasters that he made. They are much more powerful than him after all.

Willingness is irrelevant. I guess he was "willing" when he lost the ability to assume a "fair" form after the Numenorean debacle. It doesn't matter in the slightest if he was willing to imbue the ring with his power, it is enough to prove that Sauron can be drained just as much as anyone else.

@kingkronos said:

Wrong again. He was weakened, his powers weren't transfered away from him. He was only weakened, all his powers still existed, he just wasn't able to use them, because he was weakened.

Seriously? What the hell do you think the word weakened means? He didn't retain his powers at all.

"Thereafter the watch was redoubled along the northern fences of Aman; but to no purpose, for ere ever the pursuit set out Melkor had turned back, and in secrecy passed away far to the south. For he was yet as one of the Valar, and could change his form, or walk unclad, as could his brethren; though that power he was soon to lose for ever."

"But Ungoliant had grown great, and he less by the power that had gone out of him; and she rose against him, and her cloud closed about him, and she enmeshed him in a web of clinging thongs to strangle him."

"And Arien Morgoth feared with a great fear, but dared not come nigh her, having indeed no longer the power; for as he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his might passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more bound to the earth, unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds."

Doom don't even need to steal Sauron's power to win, with prep, magic and technology combined is already overkill.

Okay, Force is telling me - this is going nowhere. OP really needs to specify conditions of the Battle, or else we'll keep bumping into universal arguments. My proposition is limit them both to resourses of Vietnam only, for starters.

@AngryHulks said:

Doom don't even need to steal Sauron's power to win, with prep, magic and technology combined is already overkill.

Yep.

@Kyle_Dornez said:

Okay, Force is telling me - this is going nowhere. OP really needs to specify conditions of the Battle, or else we'll keep bumping into universal arguments. My proposition is limit them both to resourses of Vietnam only, for starters.

It's hard to argue against hardcore fans, I just can't help myself.

@Baldy: How is it irrelevant? It was willingly, he wanted to do that, he alone may control his powers. No one else can. And if you say there's such thing, the Valar wouldn't worry about Sauron and would've finished the war within seconds.

Irrelevant. Morgoth was weakened, his powers weren't drained by anyone.

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: How is it irrelevant? It was willingly, he wanted to do that, he alone may control his powers. No one else can. And if you say there's such thing, the Valar wouldn't worry about Sauron and would've finished the war within seconds.

Irrelevant. Morgoth was weakened, his powers weren't drained by anyone.

It is irrelevant because it shows that power transfer happens in the LoTR universe, the fact that no one used this against Sauron is meaningless.

I've repeatedly shown evidence that proves my case, while all you've done is make things up.

Please support your claims with evidence.

Not that any of this matters as Doom would roflstomp him in any case, drained or not, and Sauron can't even hurt Doom.

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: How is it irrelevant? It was willingly, he wanted to do that, he alone may control his powers. No one else can. And if you say there's such thing, the Valar wouldn't worry about Sauron and would've finished the war within seconds.

Irrelevant. Morgoth was weakened, his powers weren't drained by anyone.

It is irrelevant because it shows that power transfer happens in the LoTR universe, the fact that no one used this against Sauron is meaningless.

I've repeatedly shown evidence that proves my case, while all you've done is make things up.

Please support your claims with evidence.

Not that any of this matters as Doom would roflstomp him in any case, drained or not, and Sauron can't even hurt Doom.

So Sauron being able to willingly transfer his powers is relevant, and no one being able to do that to Sauron is irrelevant. This is just your assumption, you are deciding which is relevant, and which isn't.

Make things up? I'm afraid that would be you, by saying that Sauron's powers can be stolen.

I already gave you evidence. No one can steal Sauron's powers, and btw the one ring can't be used except for Sauron. So that is not someone stealing his power. It's like a part of him.

@baldy, sorry but I'm not the one who's failing at posting a valid argument. That would be you, and as many others have pointed out, you have NO proof of such ridiculous claims such as "Doom stealing Sauron's powers instantly" that is a failed argument.

But since you're insistent on putting bold letters, here I'll ask you in bold letters so that you perhaps understand better.

Please Prove or post Proof of Doom instantly stealing Sauron's abilities...oh and posting he fooled Pre-Retconned Beyonder don't count...thus why he was retconned..

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy said:

@kingkronos said:

@Baldy: How is it irrelevant? It was willingly, he wanted to do that, he alone may control his powers. No one else can. And if you say there's such thing, the Valar wouldn't worry about Sauron and would've finished the war within seconds.

Irrelevant. Morgoth was weakened, his powers weren't drained by anyone.

It is irrelevant because it shows that power transfer happens in the LoTR universe, the fact that no one used this against Sauron is meaningless.

I've repeatedly shown evidence that proves my case, while all you've done is make things up.

Please support your claims with evidence.

Not that any of this matters as Doom would roflstomp him in any case, drained or not, and Sauron can't even hurt Doom.

So Sauron being able to willingly transfer his powers is relevant, and no one being able to do that to Sauron is irrelevant. This is just your assumption, you are deciding which is relevant, and which isn't.

Make things up? I'm afraid that would be you, by saying that Sauron's powers can be stolen.

I already gave you evidence. No one can steal Sauron's powers, and btw the one ring can't be used except for Sauron. So that is not someone stealing his power. It's like a part of him.

I also gave examples of Morgoth losing his power unwillingly, so yes the fact that Sauron was willing is irrelevant. The fact remains that the books are very clear on the fact that they can lose their powers. Combined with the fact that I've given tons of examples in which Doom has stolen power, it's pretty obvious that such a strategy would work.

You even tried to suggest that Morgoth kept all of his abilities even when weakened, which I disproved. Sauron himself has been shown to lose powers permanently after the Numenorean debacle.

What evidence have you given? All you've said is 'Nuh uh, he's immune'.

Sauron's ring can be used by others, I even posted a quote directly from the Fellowship of the Ring in which Galadriel says as much.

Post a quote from the books which specifies that Sauron is immune to being drained, trapped, or absorbed.

@Vaeternus said:

@baldy, sorry but I'm not the one who's failing at posting a valid argument. That would be you, and as many others have pointed out, you have NO proof of such ridiculous claims such as "Doom stealing Sauron's powers instantly" that is a failed argument.

But since you're insistent on putting bold letters, here I'll ask you in bold letters so that you perhaps understand better.

Please Prove or post Proof of Doom instantly stealing Sauron's abilities...oh and posting he fooled Pre-Retconned Beyonder don't count...thus why he was retconned..

I already have. Multiple times. Here are some more...

Gallery

Again it's not like any of this matters. Sauron can't even get past Doom's force field, while Doom can simply one-shot him.

@Baldy: Argument with sorcery isn't that much good, all dark arts in Lotr are DERIVED from Morgoth and Sauron (they practically invented them). Songs of power, which were used in the duel with Finrod, gave elves and Ainur ability to shape the world, express their will over matter, we can call it low level reality warping, the whole universe in Lotr came from Music of Ainur, and it allowed to create things inside the world (of course creating sentient life is limited for them). With the case of losing power by Morgoth (strange, earlier you said that his example is irrelevant, now you use it yourself). Your citation is very good but you seem to don't understand it's meaning, of course power left Morgoth, but he has done it himself, he GAVE Ungoliant his power so she could destroy the two trees for him (and she also was growing bigger and stronger when she consumed the light), evil creatures (made directly by Morgoth, not changed from other form, like orcs made from elves) in order to have a will of it's own had to be filled with his essence, so they could act independently (not like automatons moving only at his mental command, as it was the case with earlier state of dwarves, before they were gifted souls by Iluvatar), with losing shapeshifting ability, we have two different cases: first Morgoth was habitually using ONE form for a long time, for Ainur bodies are like clothes, the longer one of them was using only one form, he get used to it, and it was harder to change it (certain activities even speed up this process, like beggeting children in case of Melian).

Sauron on the other hand had his ability of shapeshifting (practiced to perfection by the way) for much longer time, he had accustomed form, but he changed his shape so often that he wasn't bound to it so strongly, after the fall of Numenor he lose ability to appear ,,fair in the eyes of others" so he could not conceal his nature, but there is possibility of him taking other monstrous forms. Cataclysm was made by Eru Iluvatar himself, so it's rather probable that intervention of Sauron's creator, nigh omnipotent (making world totally different, and drawing Valinor to other dimension) being affected him. But still nothing allows to say even theoretically that other being can purposely take power from other against it's will, by other than God Creator himself (who still won't destroy souls).

Love the picture of Galactus and his googly eyes. The power cosmic is easier to steal than a blind man's walking stick, zombies did it by eating the surfer and Doom is doing it with 2 vacuum cleaners.

Strong will of characters from MU and their ability of mind reading doesn't mean automatically they are on the same level with Ainur, we don't know how to measure their abilities and their will, as we can't measure hits taken by Doom (you insist that he taken more than Sauron ever, and his will is stronger, prove that, Galactus is for example powerful entity, destroyer of worlds, but is he a god, is his will really that strong? He simply runs hrough the universe to devour all things, to SUSTAIN himself). If Sauron can create forcefield to protect small not so important outpost, he knows also how to defeat them (and still Watchers can made alarm call, strengthen their barrier after first breach, Sam and Frodo both united wills were not enough to pass after Sam entered, only when they combined it with magical artifact with holy light, and phrases in elvish they were able to do that, and everything what's elvish harms evil, it's as simple as that) his invention, so he knows it strengths and weaknesses. Forcefield = invisible barrier (common ground for two universes, unified rules).

@fantasywind said:

@Baldy: Argument with sorcery isn't that much good, all dark arts in Lotr are DERIVED from Morgoth and Sauron (they practically invented them). Songs of power, which were used in the duel with Finrod, gave elves and Ainur ability to shape the world, express their will over matter, we can call it low level reality warping, the whole universe in Lotr came from Music of Ainur, and it allowed to create things inside the world (of course creating sentient life is limited for them). With the case of losing power by Morgoth (strange, earlier you said that his example is irrelevant, now you use it yourself). Your citation is very good but you seem to don't understand it's meaning, of course power left Morgoth, but he has done it himself, he GAVE Ungoliant his power so she could destroy the two trees for him (and she also was growing bigger and stronger when she consumed the light), evil creatures (made directly by Morgoth, not changed from other form, like orcs made from elves) in order to have a will of it's own had to be filled with his essence, so they could act independently (not like automatons moving only at his mental command, as it was the case with earlier state of dwarves, before they were gifted souls by Iluvatar), with losing shapeshifting ability, we have two different cases: first Morgoth was habitually using ONE form for a long time, for Ainur bodies are like clothes, the longer one of them was using only one form, he get used to it, and it was harder to change it (certain activities even speed up this process, like beggeting children in case of Melian).

Sauron on the other hand had his ability of shapeshifting (practiced to perfection by the way) for much longer time, he had accustomed form, but he changed his shape so often that he wasn't bound to it so strongly, after the fall of Numenor he lose ability to appear ,,fair in the eyes of others" so he could not conceal his nature, but there is possibility of him taking other monstrous forms. Cataclysm was made by Eru Iluvatar himself, so it's rather probable that intervention of Sauron's creator, nigh omnipotent (making world totally different, and drawing Valinor to other dimension) being affected him. But still nothing allows to say even theoretically that other being can purposely take power from other against it's will, by other than God Creator himself (who still won't destroy souls).

Magic is magic in my opinion. Zatanna uses magic by speaking backwards, which is different to how magic works for Raven. We have to assume, however, that Zatanna's magic would still work on Raven in a hypothetical battle.

The point remains, power in the LoTR universe can pass from one being or object to another being or object. I don't remember any quotes that would suggest that this cannot be accomplished by force.

Wouldn't matter either way though, as Doom can still one-shot Sauron while Sauron can't get through his force field.

Oh and for the record, everyone I've just shown scans of Doom stealing power from are all vastly more powerful than Sauron.

@Dextersinister said:

Love the picture of Galactus and his googly eyes. The power cosmic is easier to steal than a blind man's walking stick, zombies did it by eating the surfer and Doom is doing it with 2 vacuum cleaners.

I love the art work of that era, it's always chuckle worthy. I knew someone might suggest that the power cosmic is particularly easy to steal, which was why I also added Aron, Nemesis, and Hyperstorm.

@Baldy said:

Magic is magic in my opinion. Zatanna uses magic by speaking backwards, which is different to how magic works for Raven. We have to assume, however, that Zatanna's magic would still work on Raven in a hypothetical battle.

The point remains, power in the LoTR universe can pass from one being or object to another being or object. I don't remember any quotes that would suggest that this cannot be accomplished by force.

Wouldn't matter either way though, as Doom can still one-shot Sauron while Sauron can't get through his force field.

Oh and for the record, everyone I've just shown scans of Doom stealing power from are all vastly more powerful than Sauron.

Definitely agree with this.

@fantasywind said:

Strong will of characters from MU and their ability of mind reading doesn't mean automatically they are on the same level with Ainur, we don't know how to measure their abilities and their will, as we can't measure hits taken by Doom (you insist that he taken more than Sauron ever, and his will is stronger, prove that, Galactus is for example powerful entity, destroyer of worlds, but is he a god, is his will really that strong? He simply runs hrough the universe to devour all things, to SUSTAIN himself). If Sauron can create forcefield to protect small not so important outpost, he knows also how to defeat them (and still Watchers can made alarm call, strengthen their barrier after first breach, Sam and Frodo both united wills were not enough to pass after Sam entered, only when they combined it with magical artifact with holy light, and phrases in elvish they were able to do that, and everything what's elvish harms evil, it's as simple as that) his invention, so he knows it strengths and weaknesses. Forcefield = invisible barrier (common ground for two universes, unified rules).

No, it means that Doom is ABOVE the level of an Ainur in the willpower game, unless you can show an Ainur willpower feat that is superior to Doom.

Galactus isn't a god, he's a force of nature and an intregal part of the universe.

The fact that Sauron can create force field like effects, doesn't mean that he can automatically bypass any force field he comes across and suggesting that he can is nonsense. A force field capable of keeping out hobbits =/= to a force field that laughs off Iron Man's strongest attacks.

@Vaeternus said:

then I'll say Eru destroys Pre Beyonder and Galactus, so your point?

HAHAHAHAAHHAHA OH MY GOD!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

You obviously don't know that Eru=God in LOTRU, LOL@ heymanjack, not knowing that...

@baIdy,

how exactly is Doom above Ainur Level and how exactly will Doom get past Sauron's spiritual entity? There's no proof showing he can do remotely such in any of those scans, and the SS one that's only part of the scan, it's not like he instantly defeated SS...Sauron is a demi-god meaning he won't be so easily defeated by Doom.

@Baldy: You didn't understand me (again :). I never said anything suggesting that Sauron is immune to magic but that he is MUCH better sorcerer than Doom, simply because he knows EVERYTHING about dark arts, inventing them with his master Morgoth, they from the lack of better word, created dark arts (before them there was no such thing) and Doom had to GAIN knowledge they already possessed and gave others, (I don't deny that Doom is better than sorcerer supreme in his universe) as you said magic is magic, but who would be better one who learn knowledge from someone or something, or this who developped that knowledge, before anyone else, so others are using effects of his reasearch, let me show on example, necromancy was invented by Morgoth (citation from Tolkien writings about nature of spirits):

,,The fear (spirits) of the Elves were destined to dwell in Arda for all the life of Arda, and the death of the flesh did not abrogate that destiny. Their fear were tenacious therefore of life 'in the raiment of Arda', and far excelled the spirits of Men in power over that 'raiment', even from the first days (28) protecting their bodies from many ills and assaults (such as disease), and healing them swiftly of injuries, so that they recovered from wounds that would have proved fatal to Men."

,,It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant."

,,It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them."

So there were other necromancers, but if you think that mean they were better than master in this art, think again. Sometimes student can surpass it's master, but here we're talking about master with ultimate knowledge in this matters.

Again you insist on forcefully draining power, ehh. Are you sure you don’t mistaken Lotr with The Elder Scrolls games, there you have daedric artifacts that are forged with essence of a Daedra, and such Daedra won’t be happy about it J ;) because they are made to this. Actually if laws about forcefields, from both universes are similar, then strong will is enough to breach it, so Sauron can do it. In case of Invisible Girl, forcefields are maintained by her concentration, some mental pain, which Sauron would cause, definitely will shatter this concentration.

And now we have another matter, Ainur are personified thoughts of Eru, if by sheer force of will they raised mountains and leveled them, I have a reason to believe they have stronger will than anyone born in the world. Doom with will force bigger than angels/gods? Telepathy is for Ainur natural way of communication, they were gifted with mental powers from their creation, before the time even begun:

,,There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made.”

,,But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of me mind of Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.”

,,And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I win sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'”

,,In that time the Valar brought order to the seas and the lands and the mountains, and Yavanna planted at last the seeds that she had long devised. And since, when the fires were subdued or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of light, Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had built amid the encircling seas. Then Varda filled the lamps and Manwë hallowed them, and the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp they raised near to the north of Middle-earth, and it was named Illuin; and the other was raised in the south, and it was named Ormal; and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so that all was lit as it were in a changeless day.”

,,Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew naught of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred. Green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood.”

Everything Ainur created was a product of their will, they designed it and make into reality. Even lesser ones were strong in their own way. Maia Osse caused storms over the seas, whenever he had a wish, his wife Uinen calmed them at will, Sauron himself could: ,,torture and destroy the very hills” Is this a weak will, that can be so widely exerted over material world? Or it proves otherwise, citation shows us that everything in the world is possible for them to bend to their will, all laws of nature and physic.

Also there is matter I have forgot to mention earlier, to counter your argument that Sauron was harmed by simple sword. You see, Narsil (of which I totally forgot) was made by Telchar of Nogrod (most skilled dwarven smith) = superior quality, incredible sharpness, non corrosive. There is something more in that sword, it’s not just named piece of steel:

,,Narsil is a name composed of 2 basic stems without variation or adjuncts: √NAR 'fire', & √THIL 'white light'. It thus symbolised the chief heavenly lights, as enemies of darkness, Sun (Anar) and Moon (in Q) Isil. Andúril means Flame of the West (as a region) not of the Sunset.” (Tolkien's letters)

,,...and the sword of Elendil filled Orcs and Men with fear, for it shone with the light of the sun and of the moon, and it was named Narsil.” (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silmarillion)

,,The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes; for Aragorn son of Arathorn was going to war upon the marches of Mordor. Very bright was that sword when it was made whole again; the light of the sun shone redly in it, and the light of the moon shone cold, and its edge was hard and keen. And Aragorn gave it a new name and called it Andúril, Flame of the West.” (The Ring Goes South, The Fellowship of the Ring)

,,Death shall come to anyman that draws Elendil's sword save Elendil's heir.'”

In Lothlorien it was gifted with additional bonus:

,, `Here is the gift of Celeborn and Galadriel to the leader of your Company,' she said to Aragorn, and she gave him a sheath that had been made to fit his sword. It was overlaid with a tracery of flowers and leaves wrought of silver and gold, and on it were set in elven runes formed of many gems the name Andúril and the lineage of the sword.

`The blade that is drawn from this sheath shall not be stained or broken even in defeat,' she said “(Farewell to Lórien, The Fellowship of the Ring)

Sauron has some tricks, that I think would be very good and powerful attacks, like blasting spell used by Witch-king (Sauron thought his servants sorcery, and Nazgul powers are directly derived from Sauron, so everything they showed to be capable of is also possible for their master), spells of ruin that were laid on Grond, beams of light and energy, telekinesis (those three were also displayed by Gandalf, destroying stone bridge of Moria, ,,white flame" he shot from hand into Nazgul, removing sword from Denethor by single gesture), destroying weapon at distance, and disabling a person:

,,Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand."—Chapter XII, Flight To The Ford, FOTR

,,But it was too late. At that moment the rock quivered and trembled beneath them. The great rumbling noise, louder than ever before, rolled in the ground and echoed in the mountains. Then with searing suddenness there came a great red flash. Far beyond the eastern mountains it leapt into the sky and splashed the lowering clouds with crimson. In that valley of shadow and cold deathly light it seemed unbearably violent and fierce. Peaks of stone and ridges like notched knives sprang out in staring black against the uprushing flame in Gorgoroth. Then came a great crack of thunder.

And Minas Morgul answered. There was a flare of livid lightnings: forks of blue flame springing up from the tower and from the encircling hills into the sullen clouds." this was just Great Signal, but I don't doubt that such flashes of magic could be used with more devastating effect. Fear enchantments like in First Age which helped in Sauron's assault on Tol Sirion also should be helpful.

@Vaeternus said:

You obviously don't know that Eru=God in LOTRU, LOL@ heymanjack, not knowing that...

@baIdy,

how exactly is Doom above Ainur Level and how exactly will Doom get past Sauron's spiritual entity? There's no proof showing he can do remotely such in any of those scans, and the SS one that's only part of the scan, it's not like he instantly defeated SS...Sauron is a demi-god meaning he won't be so easily defeated by Doom.

I didn't say he was 'above Ainur level', I said that his willpower was, based on feats. The Silver Surfer scan was only one of the scans I showed, you should probably check out the others.

What do you mean by 'get past Sauron's spiritual entity'?

Sauron isn't a demi-god. Fans tend to like to pretend he is, but he isn't.

"Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course,be a 'sincere' atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Ea, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more." - J. R. R. Tolkien (Morgoth's Ring)

Minor Spirit.

@fantasywind said:

Various powers and abilities of Ainur. Discussion of Narsil.

First, I hope you don't have a problem with me shortening your quotes. I don't mean to offend, it's just to save space on the page.

Whether Sauron knew everything to know about magic or not (which I believe is open to interpretation), that wasn't really my point. My point was that that Doom's magical knowledge is enough to take on Sauron in a magical duel if it comes down to it. To be clear, Doom is NOT as skilled, powerful, or knowledgeable as the Sorceror Supreme. The feat mentioned is just to show that his magical knowledge is extensive.

The necromancy doesn't impress me, it's a fairly minor magic as things go in Marvel. Besides, the very quote you've posted mentions that even trying it is foolish.

I don't see why power draining wouldn't work, but I'm open minded. If you can show me reason enough to believe it wouldn't work I'd be happy to accept that. I have seen nothing to suggest that this is the case however.

Force fields in Marvel don't follow any internal logic that is maintained between characters using them. Sue's force field is maintained through concentration, Doom's is not. Doom's force field is technological in nature. It works until it's either damaged or deactivated.

I was under the impression that the raising of mountains and what not were magical events in nature and I do not remember a reference to it being a willpower based effect.

I already mentioned that Narsil was magical and that it was, indeed, very sharp. The problem, however, arises when you take into account that Narsil was used to remove Sauron's finger after it had been broken. I believe that Narsil no longer remained magical in it's broken form. It was still sharp, I have no doubt about this, but I doubt it was still very magical and if it was it probably paled in comparison to it's former self.

Your own quote can be used to show reasoning behind this...

"Very bright was that sword when it was made whole again"

Which insinuates that it wasn't bright in it's broken form.

@fantasywind said:

,,Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand."—Chapter XII, Flight To The Ford, FOTR

This is actually one of my favorite instances of magic in all of Tolkien's work. You read this and immediately imagine Frodo freaking out and knowing how utterly screwed he is.

I'm not yet sure how to approach this. It mostly looks like a psychic effect, which Doom has been seen to have a resistance to. He has been taken out by psychics before, such as when Natalie X incapacitated him. She was, however, the most power psychic of her era.

Additionally it seems to have a telekinetic effect, with the breaking of the sword.

It seems to be a fear effect mostly, which is what Natalie used to incapacitate Doom. So technically it could work. Natalie X was far stronger (this is somewhat speculative as she doesn't have much in the way of feats) and had to increase her efforts to subdue him. As such I suspect that Doom would be able to resist the effects with technology and willpower.

@fantasywind said:

,,But it was too late. At that moment the rock quivered and trembled beneath them. The great rumbling noise, louder than ever before, rolled in the ground and echoed in the mountains. Then with searing suddenness there came a great red flash. Far beyond the eastern mountains it leapt into the sky and splashed the lowering clouds with crimson. In that valley of shadow and cold deathly light it seemed unbearably violent and fierce. Peaks of stone and ridges like notched knives sprang out in staring black against the uprushing flame in Gorgoroth. Then came a great crack of thunder.

This one isn't all that impressive. Flashy, but not that effective against a lone enemy and I doubt it would get through his defenses.

@fantasywind said:

And Minas Morgul answered. There was a flare of livid lightnings: forks of blue flame springing up from the tower and from the encircling hills into the sullen clouds." this was just Great Signal, but I don't doubt that such flashes of magic could be used with more devastating effect. Fear enchantments like in First Age which helped in Sauron's assault on Tol Sirion also should be helpful.

Too much speculation, I'm afraid. No idea what it would be like as a weapon and as such I feel unable to enter into debate about it.

@Vaeternus:

No one can beat Beyonder. They can only stalemate him.

Back on topic.

Dr. Doom via MORE FEATS

@heymanjac

Wrong, Presence can beat Beyonder as he's God. God>>>Beyonder and so can Eru as he's the God of LOTR...

Feats mean nothing when someone is more powerful then you are and or can't be killed, only way to kill Sauron is to destroy the ring in Mount Doom which Doom will have no knowledge of.

@baIdy, unfortunately "laughing" doesn't win you anything unless you're a reality warper(which Doom is far from so yeah..)

lol, Sauron isn't a minor spirit especially when he's existed long before and far longer then Doom ever has. He's relentless powerful entity. I did check the rest out and non of them showed Doom fighting an entity itself. Willpower alone can't defeat Sauron(as we saw with frodo) and yes Sauron is a demi-god, if you look it up.

@Baldy: @Baldy said:

@ThatThorFan said:

You gave Doom prep. He wins.

He could use all of his prep time laughing at Sauron and he'd still win.

this

@Vaeternus:

Beyonder IS God. He is OMNIPOTENT. No one can beat him they can only stalemate him at best. Sorry.

@heymanjack said:

@Vaeternus:

No one can beat Beyonder. They can only stalemate him.

Back on topic.

Dr. Doom via MORE FEATS

Yes, somebody can.

And why is this still on? Plus, people are getting off-topic.

@Baldy: Necromancy is foolish only for unprepared humans (not to mention that these practices are forbidden by the Valar) if they try that without great power they could become possessed by spirit they wanted to control, you say that it's not impressive fine, but it's just an example, whatever you'll say about it, this kind of dark magic is an invention of Morgoth and Sauron, so they knew in this matter more than any human sorcerer. Still both dark lords and their servants have good use of necromancy, Barrow Wights were made by Witch-king, spirits he sent to inhabit deserted Barrow Downs to further weaken Duneadain kingdoms (Cardolan), they had some abilities of their own, like causing transe-like state resembling death, they are said to be rather strong, with ,,grip stronger and colder than iron". There is also Morgul-knife magic which turns living people into wraiths under command of Nazgul and Sauron, so necromancy isn't all that useless. You tried to highlight that Sauron is a minor spirit, but what that mean, only that he is lesser in power to Valar (they are great spirits, it is possible that Sauron was one of the most powerful Maiar along with Melian, Eonwe, Ilmare and maybe Olorin, but unquestioningly he was the most powerful of Morgoth's servants). So power level of Maiar some compare to demigods, but it's more likely that they are like lesser gods in greek mythology (there we have full of them) not so powerful like the Olympus crew but still to be reconned with.

Narsil when broken lost only ability to glow with light of sun and moon (it's worth to mention that sun and moon in Tolkien universe contain light of Two Trees the same that is in Silmarils, so there is power in them beyond normal understanding, holy light against darkness) but still properties of dwarven made weapon remained along with traces of it's unusual power (Tolkien always highlighted that weapons made by dwarves especially Telchar, could cut other metals, and Sauron could not defend himself in that moment).

Speculation is what is beautiful and fascinating about Tolkien works, but sometimes he gave useful information only hidden in imprecise language, he often wrote instead of: something is, something as if, or something seemed like something else (I hope you'll understand what I mean), for example:

"Weariness, and more than weariness oppressed him (Frodo); it seemed as if a heavy spell was laid on his mind and body. 'I must rest,' he muttered." so ,,it seemed as if" but more likely such a spell certainly existed in Lotr, because Saruman done the same to Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas while they travelled through Rohan in pursuit of Uruk-hai. As far as we know such effect could be magic emanating from Minas Morgul, or intervention of the ring itself. The ring had it's own will (as extension of Sauron's), besides controlling other rings of power and perceiving them and their powers also understanding thoughts of their bearers, making invisible by pulling into wraith world, corrupting everyone around it, it also drawed all evil to it: Watcher in the Water (on council of Elrond when they discussed if the ring could be thrown to sea, Gandalf remarks that many creatures may help Sauron regained it:`There are many things in the deep waters; and seas and lands may change. And it is not our part here to take thought only for a season, or for a few lives of Men, or for a passing age of the world. We should seek a final end of this menace, even if we do not hope to make one"), Balrog (he probably knew about rise of Sauron, it was his influence that awakened Balrog, though probably Durin's Bane didn't take orders directly), orcs on the Gladden fields when Isildur ventured there with the ring, and two more abilities often forgotten: understanding of speech or thoughts of Sauron's subordinates, and less known abilities of changing the way other beings perceive the world and especially the person who wields it:

,,For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds. Gollum raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his knees."

"Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire, there spoke a voice. 'Begone, and truble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'" interesting that it actually happens later.

,,Perhaps the Ring gave understanding of tongues, or simply understanding, especially of the servants of Sauron its maker, so that if he gave heed, he understood and translated the thought to himself." (Return of the King)

“A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. ... It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him.” (Fellowship of the Ring)

,,...the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others" (Letter 131)

Forcefield technological or not there are ways for Sauron to bypass this defense. Even Hulk made it with pure physical strength. But of course you'll say that Sauron is no way on Hulk level cause he was defeated by weaker oponents, well I think on the contrary, Elendil and Gil-Galad had both physical prowess of some of the Marvel guys, with highest quality armours and weapons, and still they DIED. Physical strength of Maiar in material form vary, but even Istari who were especially restricted and VOLUNTARILY bound themselves to limitations of their bodies were surprisingly strong and agile, other spirits when physical had great strength that surpassed elves and men. Morgoth was able to crush earth and melt rocks with hit of his hammer. Sauron in all forms that of beasts and monsters and elf-like possesed big strength, the sentense during council of Elrond saying ,,Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills" could refer to similar strength to Morgoth in bodily form (but not as gigantic).

In this one case of Sauron's defeat in war, he was just after the Fall of Numenor, military power is not the same as personal (and military power of Sauron wasn't at full capabilities when he waged war). At the time of Last Alliance elves and surviving Numenoreans were still strong military and possesed personal powers beyond normal mortals. Numenoreans and elves of Noldor kindred had strong wills of mind, great prowess of body, and advanced technology. Numenoreans had their own kind of magic, they could implement in objects. Effort that was taken in that war by free peoples was enormous and never again they had hopes of repeating it. Much energy took to dominate minds of most of the Numenoreans, Sauron in cataclysm was forcefully removed from his physical form, but still there is no indication that he was permanently weakened, on the contrary his powers seems to return slowly. H could not appear beautiful but there is no proof that he completely lost ability to change shape like Morgoth did. As a werewolf Sauron was the strongest beast on earth (Huan could not be defeated by simple case of fate).

Now we again focus on power draining. All magic in Middle Earth, are always based on innate power of the being that perform it (knowledge is not sufficient if you don't posses natural ability). Numenoreans, elves, dwarves and Druedain (and other humans like Beorn) have it and nothing can remove it from them unless they squander them, or lessen it in future generations by ,,interbreeding" (what an awful word, but I had to use it) with other humans lesser in power (Beorn's descendants remained shapeshifters but with lesser power, Numenoreans migled with lesser man, and lost much knowledge how to use those abilities they had, hal-elven are weaker than full powered elves, descendants of Ungoliant also had lesser power because she mated with ordinary spiders). Druedain could pass some of their power into statues (story ,,Faithful Stone") but never it happened against their will. They wished it, also Morgoth spread power into world, but nobody could steal it from him. In Lotr universe it's impossible to steal power for any inside this universe (unless you are omnipotent Creator and still He didn't use this mean). That it's possible in MU is diferent matter. Still why Doom didn't just steal powers of all superpowered guys he met, certainly there must be some restriction. Istari allowed their full power to be hidden, and swear not to use it to directly match Sauron only to inspire other beings and help them when needed. In case of Saruman, he also lost some of his power by his own fault, breaking of his staff was symbolic (and similar to destruction of the one ring, but with one distinction, staffs of the Istari were only a focus of their power not their source or containment jar).

@Vaeternus said:

@heymanjac

Wrong, Presence can beat Beyonder as he's God. God>>>Beyonder and so can Eru as he's the God of LOTR...

Feats mean nothing when someone is more powerful then you are and or can't be killed, only way to kill Sauron is to destroy the ring in Mount Doom which Doom will have no knowledge of.

@baIdy, unfortunately "laughing" doesn't win you anything unless you're a reality warper(which Doom is far from so yeah..)

lol, Sauron isn't a minor spirit especially when he's existed long before and far longer then Doom ever has. He's relentless powerful entity. I did check the rest out and non of them showed Doom fighting an entity itself. Willpower alone can't defeat Sauron(as we saw with frodo) and yes Sauron is a demi-god, if you look it up.

It matters not if Sauron's spirit can be killed or not, and what happened at the end of LoTR is debatable. The fact remains that Doom doesn't need to destroy Sauron's spirit to win the fight. I mean, hell, if your going to try to pull that one then you need to also prove that Sauron can destroy Doom's spirit.

Doom can win in any number of ways, the easiest would be to simply remove the ring from Sauron by blasting him into nothingness, which I have shown that he is capable of. Sauron was cut by a broken sword, and Doom has been shown emit blasts far stronger than that, even without prep.

What happened when his ring was removed by Isildur?

"But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years." - Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.

Note that this was from simply removing his ring, and what does the word 'vanquished' mean?

van·quish (vngkwsh, vn-)

tr.v.van·quished, van·quish·ing, van·quish·es

1.

a. To defeat or conquer in battle; subjugate. <---It's this one by the way.

b. To defeat in a contest, conflict, or competition.

2. To overcome or subdue (an emotion, for example); suppress

I'll post the quote that I've already posted because you obviously didn't read it...

"Sauron had not served Morgoth, even in his last stages, without becoming infected by his lust for destruction, and his hatred of God (which must end in nihilism). Sauron could not, of course,be a 'sincere' atheist. Though one of the minor spirits created before the world, he knew Eru, according to his measure. He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Ea, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more." - J. R. R. Tolkien (Morgoth's Ring)

Notice that last bit? You know, the part where J. R. R. Tolkien himself wrote that? Yeah. That's the important bit. Unless you're going to go on to claim that you know more about LoTR than Tolkien.

@ShootingNova said:

@heymanjack said:

@Vaeternus:

No one can beat Beyonder. They can only stalemate him.

Back on topic.

Dr. Doom via MORE FEATS

Yes, somebody can.

And why is this still on? Plus, people are getting off-topic.

I'm trapped. Send for help. :P

@fantasywind

Narsil lost power when it broke, that much is clear. The fact that it was still sharper than any real sword, is debatable, though even if it was, Doom's damage potential far exceeds it.

Speculation, is actually my least favorite part of Tolkien's style. I much prefer it when an author is clear, which isn't to say that I don't like his work, just that I think it was at times too wishy washy. Unfortunately, speculation is difficult to debate, as it is open to personal interpretation and as such i try to leave it out of the debate as much as possible. When discussing, the most important thing is to provide clear evidence.

There may be ways for Sauron to bypass Doom's force field, but none that i can think of that were ever referenced in the books. Sauron is clearly not as strong as the Hulk, and even if he was Doom has thrown down with multiple Hulk's at the same time...

Gallery

The scans are slightly out of order, the first one is actually the last. The rest are right. The Hulk robot just previous to this had just finished trashing both A-Bomb and Rulk at the same time. Notice that Doom utterly owned them, until he was hit by a 'dumb-ray' trick by Banner and The Leader.

More durability feats for Doom...

Gallery

As for the point about Sauron retaining his shape changing, I have to agree with you. The book suggests that he only lost his ability to assume a 'fair' shape, not that he lost the ability completely. However, the fact that he was even weakened suggests to me that you can remove their power against their will. Feel free to post a quote that proves me wrong though. Morgoth also lost some of his abilities permanently.

I won't use the loss of Saruman's power as an argument in this case, as it's too open to speculation. My personal feeling on this isn't so much that his power was stolen, so much as that he was effectively 'fired' from the Istari. I base this on the fact that Gandalf says that he has no color.

@Baldy: Well he dominated minds of the Numenoreans right, and they weren't stupid weaklings, so logically Sauron had to use some of his power and will to achieve this, he shows some tricks to them so they call him god, he gives them more knowledge, he closely manipulates king Ar-Pharazon as his advisor, Tolkien wrote that besides the king he affected most of the population of the island, then he is taken by surprise in cataclysm too big he wanted to cause, definitely he used power by himself, and this effort tired him and weakened to the point when his body was destroyed he neded time to recover, again in Middle Earth he begun to gain control over his previous dominion which require extend will (free will of humans is what he always wanted to rule, he wanted their full obedience, total control, and this is really difficult, he alone to control minds of living things on the whole world, big ambition don't you think), again in Third Age he completely drives his orcs, trolls (and sustains Olog-hai in sunlight at will, consciously present in their thoughts), other beasts and slaves, one moment he turns his attention they suddenly lacks confidence, imagine how hard it would be constantly held supervision over so many minds, which are after all still independent from his own, but forced to comply.

,,From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster then the winds, the Nazgûl, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom.’"

,,‘But the Nazgûl turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor’s shadows, hearing and sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower; and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled , doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will removed from them; and now looking in the eyes of their enemies they saw a deadly light and were afraid.’"

Tolkien wrote:

"But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which had wrought so great an evil, so that he could ... until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible" so analyzing this passage gives us information, first his body was forcefully removed, so it's possible but he won't die, second ,,in which had wrought so great an evil" this evil he wrought required use of his innate abilities, he abused them so much that he weakened himself FOR A TIME, his powers returned to him, but he could no longer conceal his nature, every violent destruction of a body (if a spirit wants return to physical shape) causes that next form must be made with another effort of power, bigger each time, in VOLUNTARILY shapeshifting there is no need for such use of energy like in this case, and of course we cannot exclude Iluvatar form of punishment (but it's less likely):

' ... It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, that might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.' Tolkien Letters, don't remember which one sorry (clear mythologically, I believe you know what he meant, ring held and preserved much of his power with it destroyed he could no longer reach this power and use it).

Durability feats of Doom are little dishonest, because he just hide his body in nearly indestructible armour, ;) but I acknowledge them. I don't agree that Sauron isn't so strong as Hulk (of course I know that Hulk is living tank, nothing is impossible for him) he could MAKE himself physically stronger than anything:

,,Therefore he took upon himself the form of a werewolf, and made himself the mightiest that had ever walked the world; and he came forth to win the passage of the bridge."

Morgoth lose some abilities, true but he caused this by spreading his power into matter of the world itself in order to better command it, and even so heavily depowered as Tolkien stated he would ultimately destroy the world as it was:

,,This as sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men."

and this is said of Morgoth...

,,...even if left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was leveled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defated, because it would still have 'existed'.independant of his own mind, and a world in potential."

Don't be annoyed by speculations, in Lotr there is not that much field to assume some crazy impossible things, everything has some basis, those flashy light shows in exchange between Barad-Dur and Minas Morgul are something which causes earth shake, blue flames and lightning are products of sorcery as well as other things:

,,Beyond lay the wilderness of Dungortheb, where the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian came together, and horror and madness walked."

~ Of Beren and Lúthien

Sauron could use his knowledge of materials to find weakness in Doom's suit, or even weakened it by sorcery, like spells of Gandalf did on stone bridge or Witch-king's on steel gate. There is also possibility that sorcery of Sauron is much more active in destruction:

,,Now ever and anon there was a red flash, and slowly through the heavy air dull rumbles could be heard.

“They have taken the wall!” men cried. “They are blasting breaches in it. They are coming!” or it's as simple as that, his army used explosives, just like Saruman.

,,But the engines did not waste shot upon the indomitable wall. It was no brigand or orc-chieftain that ordered the assault upon the Lord of Mordor’s greatest foe. A power and mind of malice guided it. As soon as the great catapults were set, with many yells and the creaking of rope and winch, they began to throw missiles marvelously high, so that they passed right above the battlement and fell thudding within the first circle of the City, and many of them by some secret art burst into flame as they came toppling down.’" Well definitely something highly flammable, and self-combusting. Still if this is not magic, it proves technological capabilities.

One question what kind of temperatures Doom's suit can survive? Sauron's body at Last Alliance could release heat (and aura of supernatural fear like Nazgul).

@heymanjac, no Beyonder isn't God..he's a plot device that got retconned no less so technically he doesn't exist. Plus Doom stole his powers and was asking questions about humans that he didn't understand, if he was GOD, he wouldn't have asked much less be stupid enough to get his powers stolen from him by a mere mortal...

Presence IS God in DCU as is Eru in LOTR(until either is defeated or fooled like stupid Beyonder, they're more powerful), and yes Presence would beat him....Beyonder was deceived, Presence would be deceived much less never lost anything or struggled with anyone. Period, thus Presence>>>>Beyonder.

BTW, Presence is also all knowing, omnipresent, omnipotent etc

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Presence_(New_Earth)

@BaIdy,

Doom would only win if he had months prep and IF he new Sauron's weaknesses then he'd have a chance, and that's just the mortal form of Sauron. Again, the spiritual entity can't be defeated and end of LOTR isn't debatable, it's canon. The only way to kill Sauron forever is to destroy the ring of power he created in the first place. My point here is even if Doom some how managed to defeat his physical form, he can't beat Sauron's entity which is why in a way this match is unfair for Doom because ultimately it's a sorcerer vs. a powerful demi-god entity...

Being cut by a sword doesn't=defeat, Doom was KOed by Human Torch in the film...so yeah. As well as dealt with the FF several times in the comics.

What happened when his ring was removed by Isildur?

What happened when Isildur removed the ring of power? He was still corrupted...and wanted to keep it, if you saw the first film and read the first part of the trilogy, much like Frodo was at the end of the saga....

lol, vanquished just means left or fled it doesn't mean destroyed much less gone for good.

Surely you know what destroyed means, it's not the same as vanquished.

And I did read it, it's just irrelevant here being as how you're assuming way too much about Doom automatically beating Sauron with him draining him, plasma blasts etc At the end of the day, Sauron betrayed the others due to a lust for power. Simply put. Also, I'd love to hear how Doom would deal with the Nazgul since they heed to his will and can't be killed by a man so Doom is kind of screwed there...

@fantasywind

Tricking the Numenorean's is a nice feat for Sauron, however, Doom has him beat.

The Marquis of Death is a vastly powerful reality warper that existed for billions of years mastering both time and space, he was rampaging across the multiverse destroying as much of reality as he could. He ended up in the main Marvel continuity and had a very short fight with Doom, defeating him effortlessly and throwing him into the past to be eaten by a giant shark. This is what happened afterwards...

Gallery

This is extremely impressive.

I'm not sure that I buy that he could just make himself as strong as he wanted, otherwise he could have just done so and not been defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil.

Sauron might be able to find a weakness in Doom's armor, but I don't think he'd have time to become familiar with it before being defeated. It is far and away more advanced than anything Sauron has ever even dreamed of, and I would argue beyond his ability to even replicate. If he could make such things, then he would have done so.

As for Doom's durability I would happily agree that without his armor, it's not very high. He is only human after all. He has his armor in this fight though, so that's irrelevant.

As for heat, he regularly battles the Human Torch, who as you can imagine has the ability to get pretty hot. This is what happens when they fight..

Gallery

@Vaeternus said:

@heymanjac, no Beyonder isn't God..he's a plot device that got retconned no less so technically he doesn't exist. Plus Doom stole his powers and was asking questions about humans that he didn't understand, if he was GOD, he wouldn't have asked much less be stupid enough to get his powers stolen from him by a mere mortal...

Presence IS God in DCU as is Eru in LOTR(until either is defeated or fooled like stupid Beyonder, they're more powerful), and yes Presence would beat him....Beyonder was deceived, Presence would be deceived much less never lost anything or struggled with anyone. Period, thus Presence>>>>Beyonder.

BTW, Presence is also all knowing, omnipresent, omnipotent etc

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Presence_(New_Earth)

@BaIdy,

Doom would only win if he had months prep and IF he new Sauron's weaknesses then he'd have a chance, and that's just the mortal form of Sauron. Again, the spiritual entity can't be defeated and end of LOTR isn't debatable, it's canon. The only way to kill Sauron forever is to destroy the ring of power he created in the first place. My point here is even if Doom some how managed to defeat his physical form, he can't beat Sauron's entity which is why in a way this match is unfair for Doom because ultimately it's a sorcerer vs. a powerful demi-god entity...

Being cut by a sword doesn't=defeat, Doom was KOed by Human Torch in the film...so yeah. As well as dealt with the FF several times in the comics.

What happened when his ring was removed by Isildur?

What happened when Isildur removed the ring of power? He was still corrupted...and wanted to keep it, if you saw the first film and read the first part of the trilogy, much like Frodo was at the end of the saga....

lol, vanquished just means left or fled it doesn't mean destroyed much less gone for good.

Surely you know what destroyed means, it's not the same as vanquished.

And I did read it, it's just irrelevant here being as how you're assuming way too much about Doom automatically beating Sauron with him draining him, plasma blasts etc At the end of the day, Sauron betrayed the others due to a lust for power. Simply put. Also, I'd love to hear how Doom would deal with the Nazgul since they heed to his will and can't be killed by a man so Doom is kind of screwed there...

I know what vanquished means, and I knew you'd try to pretend that it meant something else, that's why I posted the definition.

It means he lost by the way. So in short if he loses the ring then he loses, because he will run away and take years to reform.

I posted a direct quote by Tolkien telling you that he was a minor spirit. What more do you need to drop this meaningless demi-god nonsense? Tolkien himself to show up and your house and explain it in person?

I do as well, but I'm saying Vanquish=doesn't mean destroyed, erased from existence like you're making it out to be or something. Batman was "vanquished" by Darkseid's beams, does that mean he was dead forever? No. Try to pretend it meant something else? You're the one that posted it, and denied that Sauron was a demi-god in the first place saying ridiculous things like "Doom can magically drain Sauron" lmao...but fantasy already explained this to you numerous times, you're just not reading or understanding why at this point.

A minor-spirit doens't mean anything here, that's what Tolkien said. It doesn't make Sauron any "less" powerful as a villian in the LOTR saga...

Did Tolkien ever say "Sauron isn't a demi-god" uhh no, do you even know what a demi-god is? It's half God, and thus makes sense being as how Sauron was created by more powerful god like beings in LOTR...so yeah.

@Baldy: No need. I was referring to the usual TOAA..... and Batman prep god (jokes).

@Baldy: As much reality warping is impressive there are always means to defeat enemy like that, or to evade their attacks, this mutilated humanoid is really a reality warper? Whoah, time has been rough for him, as good old Yoda said: "when 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not" hehe. If this guy could so much destroy parts of reality, why he didn't do anything more serious to Doom, he just sent him to be eaten by sharks, he was tired or what? Or reckless, arogant maybe, Doom also can be such, and it's a source of his failures (after all he never had a full victory).

And to respond to your uncertainty, pure strength is sometimes matched by speed and agility, in the fight with Elendil an Gil-Galad there is nothing to contradict that Sauron didn't make himself stronger physically than surrounding elves and Numenoreans, fact is that making yourself strong and properly using this strength are two different matters, Morgoth in his duel was like giant making craters in earth with molten rock, and Fingolfin faced him pretty well, but that didn't help when Morgoth's foot crushed him. In his all personal fights Sauron wasn't the type like Gothmog, ,,bash'em good guy" when he fought he did this after carefully planning his moves, first fight to take fortress by assault was backed up by his sorcery, second time against Finrod he again won with magical means, fight with Huan was almost possible for him to win, but sometimes fate demands otherwise, Sauron knew the prophecy, and he thought that he could accomplish it by posing himself into it (as I said in one of the earlier posts, prophecies always are correct in Tolkien works, they will always happen and will be happening to the end of Arda), and manipulated his physical state because body is something that higher spirits can control to Beren passing through Melian magic barrier wasn't signifying that his power is that great, (only somone with bigger power than Melian could pass) fate lead him there, because his union with Luthien was always meant to happen. Another fight during Last Alliance with Sauron personally breaking siege of his fortress which lasted seven years, was example that sometimes Sauron could become overconfident, little information we have about that fight suggest his coming to battle turned the tide. What exactly was done to Sauron, so Isildur could cut the ring from his body (mind that Tolkien description suggest that Sauron was already unable to fight, with the death of Elendil and Gil-Galad he was probably seriously wounded, and incapacitated because after the ring taken, his spirit fled, separation must have been great shock, and Sauron could not immediately access power in ithe ring, it's like buffs added to Hp points in game, and while having them serious damage, and then removal of buff leading to instant death (or something like that, not neccesarily regarding life force ;). As an Ainur Sauron should possess similar powers to Valar (only lesser) of altering things around him, this is also reality warping (to more believable level), and Valar shows that they can in very limited way manipulate space: Halls of Mandos are growing over time, they are partly physical as dwelling place of Vala Namo and his wife Vaire the Weaver in Valinor (she records and remembers all history) and where the spirits of the dead are gathering.

Sauron definitely could get to know Doom's armour, (both have time to prepare and Sauron is good at gaining information), fact is that Sauron is perfectly capable of making indestructible things. With the power of the ring he made foundations of Barad-dur, and nothing could destroy them as long as the ring existed. Sauron probably didn't consider to be worth to make for himself an armour that would have the same quality, he just didn't deem it neccessary. But he would happily adopt the same idea, he showed he can improve his works. Even Barad-dur in late Third Age seems to be more durable than in earlier times (and it responded to his state of mind):

,,And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own... the Power in Barad-dûr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown."

,,Hope leaped in his heart. But against Minas Tirith was set another fortress, greater and more strong. Thither, eastward, unwilling his eye was drawn. It passed the ruined bridges of Osgiliath, the grinning gates of Minas Morgul, and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the Land of Mordor. ... Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him."

,,'If [the Ring] is destroyed, then [Sauron] will fall.... For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble....'"

,,A brief vision Sam had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up... until they toppled like an overwhelming wave.... And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble, rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled."

There is something else Sauron can use, his ability of planning, and strategical thinking which easily matches Doom's if not surpass it. In coordination of his forces Sauron is very accurate, he would quickly dominate area where he would met with Doom, this are examples of organization skill of Sauron:

,,But everywhere he looked he saw the signs of war. The Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes. Under the boughs of Mirkwood there was deadly strife of Elves and Men and fell beasts. The land of the Beornings was aflame; a cloud was over Moria; smoke rose on the borders of Lórien. Horsemen were galloping on the grass of Rohan; wolves poured from Isengard. From the havens of Harad ships of war put out to sea; and out of the East Men were moving endlessly: swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains. All the power of the Dark Lord was in motion."

@Vaeternus said:

I do as well, but I'm saying Vanquish=doesn't mean destroyed, erased from existence like you're making it out to be or something. Batman was "vanquished" by Darkseid's beams, does that mean he was dead forever? No. Try to pretend it meant something else? You're the one that posted it, and denied that Sauron was a demi-god in the first place saying ridiculous things like "Doom can magically drain Sauron" lmao...but fantasy already explained this to you numerous times, you're just not reading or understanding why at this point.

A minor-spirit doens't mean anything here, that's what Tolkien said. It doesn't make Sauron any "less" powerful as a villian in the LOTR saga...

Did Tolkien ever say "Sauron isn't a demi-god" uhh no, do you even know what a demi-god is? It's half God, and thus makes sense being as how Sauron was created by more powerful god like beings in LOTR...so yeah.

Did Tolkien ever say "Sauron is not Batman?"

Well, I guess by your logic he must be Batman then.

I didn't say vanquished meant that he'd been removed from reality, just that it means that he'd been defeated. Which he was. Simply from having his ring removed.

@fantasywind

Yeah, the Marquis of Death was an evil bad guy, I guess they just wanted him to look menacing. As for why he teleported him into the past to be eaten by sharks, that's because he wanted him to suffer. And suffer he did, for milliennia apparently.

He later had to change himself on the molecular level to avoid detection from the Marquis and tricked him into accepting him as his apprentice. One of the scans implies that he even killed a watcher, which is a big deal, though as this was certainly an alternate reality, there is little we can really learn from it.

As for strength, I still find it doubtful. He increased his strength once and it was insufficient to defeat a wolfhound. The wolfhound was said to be killed by the greatest wolf, but Sauron apparently didn't qualify. This doesn't explain why he didn't just pick up a mountain and trap the dog under it instead of retreating.

If he could change his form into anything he liked with any physical abilities he wants I maintain that he could have turned himself into something stronger and faster than Gil-galad and Elendil and obliterated them with ease.

Morgoth's goal was utter destruction and yet at no point did he turn himself into a form capable of crushing the planet with a single punch.

As for Sauron's potential to build things, I find it very doubtful that he has Doom beat in this respect. Do me a favor and post what you consider to be Sauron's best feats of intellect and his greatest inventions and I'll post some from Doom.